Snake MU Thread

[Perversion]

This thread is to be used to discuss matchups and this post will be editted to convey matchup ratios as time goes by. I'll try to stay on top of it, but as someone who's just learning Snake, a lot of input would be advised from more experienced players. However, I feel it's time for this forum to have our own match up thread.

Format: Snake/Opposition

:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: 60/40
:
:
:
:
: 45/55
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
(Brawler):
(Swordfighter):
(Gunner):
:
: 55/45
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
(COMING SOON):
:
:
(Squirtle):
(Ivysaur):
(Charizard):
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: 50/50
:
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:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:

Thank you for your inputs and the reasoning for the matchups, if discussed and determined will be within the thread.

 

[OldHickory]

So, I'm a Lucas player myself, but I'll give you some info on my side of the matchup.
In short, Lucas holds the advantage in this one.

With the ability to heal off Snake's explosives with PSI Magnet, camping out Lucas isn't really an option.
As such, this forces Snake to go on the offensive...through a wall of PK Freeze and Fire, as well as Lucas' buffed f-air. This is also against a small, very mobile target.
If forced off stage, Snake doesn't fare very well against Lucas either. PK Thunder can be used to harass low recoveries, forcing Snake to recover high, which leaves him open to PK Freeze. If anyone gets hit by PK Freeze at anything but low percents, they're pretty much dead.
Like seriously, it's a scary tool. Low risk, and near guarantees a stock if it hits.

My recommendation is to try and get in his face as soon as possible and use Snake's good normals to secure damage and kills as quickly as possible, because if Lucas gets some distance, you'll have lost a lot of ground. Once again, a zoning war isn't recommended, as Lucas can heal off it.
Dash attack and crawling are a good way to sneak past short-hopped f-airs and PK Fires.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Take it from someone who tried running a matchup discussion thread for S4 Fox, in a game that got constantly patched, tweaked, and updated: do not worry too much about keeping ratios up to date until the game stabilizes and they have a final version.

Did not know that Snake's explosives were capable of being absorbed now by the PSI moves. That's definitely something that wasn't a thing in Brawl.

From my limited Lucas experience (he's been dropped by many players I know after he lost his d-throw combos): How I've played the matchup myself, I still use grenades but instead of playing a projectile war, I just toss the first one close to me with either neutral or back toss, and the next one I shield cancel and hold. This is a good way to see how the Lucas player reacts and how much they like their PSI magnet. It's a good way to get a couple steps ahead of your opponent and try to bait it in an attempt to punish PSI magnet later on.

I think Snake's dash attack beats all of his aerials and clashes with his projectiles, I believe grenades can also clash and cancel PK Thunder and PK Fire. Aside from Dash attack, I've found Snake's d-tilt is good against Lucas since it outranges him and can get it out on frame 6. Generally this is Snake's best move when it comes to spacing against short characters with low range like Lucas and it places him above Snake, in a very uncomfortable position to be in against Snake.

Not enough experience to say where the matchup stands though. Those are just my notes. It'd probably be best to get some input from Discord and see high level matchups to understand how it's played at that level and what are the disadvantages/advantages each one gets.

EDIT: Now that I think about it Snake + Lucas/Ness team would be pretty tight. Can G&W also absorb the explosions with Oil Panic? Now THAT would be a team I'd pay to watch too lol

 

[OldHickory]

A dash attack can stuff projectiles on startup, but Lucas' PK Fire is a physical object that explodes on contact.

It will beat literally everything that doesn't have a penetrating property.

As for PK Thunder, Lucas passes through players, so grenades can hit him out of it, but not stuff it like absorb/reflect/pocket can.

On a semi related note, it's best if Isabelle or the Villager don't pocket grenades.

 

[DavemanCozy]

A dash attack can stuff projectiles on startup, but Lucas' PK Fire is a physical object that explodes on contact.

It will beat literally everything that doesn't have a penetrating property.

Snake's Dash attack has intangibility at the front of the hitbox (his head and arms), which lets him clash with most projectiles in the game. Snake cancels out the projectile and the projectile cancels out his dash attack. I know he can do this with meaty projectiles like Ivysaur's razor leaf without suffering any damage. But I'll give the PK Fires a double look when I get home though.

EDIT: yes I confirmed it, Snake's dash attack clashes and cancels with both Ness and Lucas's PK Fires. Lucas, however, only cancels before it reaches it's max range; i.e., it can't cancel once it explodes on it's max range, but it can before. Projectile disappears without exploding, and Snake suffers no damage (he does lag though). I even tested more projectiles, Snake's dash attack clashes and cancels a fully charged Aura Sphere as long as he's not at max rage... but not a fully charged shot from Samus.

So he's invincible at the front basically, and nothing beats it unless it's intangible itself.

Speaking of Pokemon Trainer:
The matchup should be treated as all 3 pokemon, not just individually. Something that Pokemon Change (down special) does is remove the sticky from whichever pokemon had it stuck, it simply falls off. That's something that is unique to the trainer, is that they can get the sticky off without having to pass it on to Snake.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

King K main here. Snake absolutely clobbers us. Big hurt box is a huge disadvantage against C4. Nakata...Nakita? Side B is a huge nuisance since our recovery is so linear and it's so easy to keep King K off stage. And generally if King K does get past, he isn't fast enough to punish. Grenades make it difficult to approach and it's pretty easy to predict what we'll do once we do approach. Overall I'd give the matchup a 70/30 in Snake's favor.

The only advantage King K does have: if Snake recovers low, King K can follow after him and Neutral Air when Snake Up-B's, first hit neutral air beats snakes recovery, leading to an easy KO.

 

[speedguy20]

King K main here. Snake absolutely clobbers us. Big hurt box is a huge disadvantage against C4. Nakata...Nakita? Side B is a huge nuisance since our recovery is so linear and it's so easy to keep King K off stage. And generally if King K does get past, he isn't fast enough to punish. Grenades make it difficult to approach and it's pretty easy to predict what we'll do once we do approach. Overall I'd give the matchup a 70/30 in Snake's favor.

The only advantage King K does have: if Snake recovers low, King K can follow after him and Neutral Air when Snake Up-B's, first hit neutral air beats snakes recovery, leading to an easy KO.

B-air spike goes through snake's recovery if I'm correct. Also grenade gimmick is a glass wall. Once you see through it, snake becomes a lot more reasonable to fight. If he runs at you with a grenade, just grab and pummel 1 or 2 times then throw. you'll get i-frames so you don't have to care about grenade. Though I would say it's more 60/40 in Snake's favor because I agree with you in most your other points.

So, I'm a Lucas player myself, but I'll give you some info on my side of the matchup.
In short, Lucas holds the advantage in this one.

With the ability to heal off Snake's explosives with PSI Magnet, camping out Lucas isn't really an option.
As such, this forces Snake to go on the offensive...through a wall of PK Freeze and Fire, as well as Lucas' buffed f-air. This is also against a small, very mobile target.
If forced off stage, Snake doesn't fare very well against Lucas either. PK Thunder can be used to harass low recoveries, forcing Snake to recover high, which leaves him open to PK Freeze. If anyone gets hit by PK Freeze at anything but low percents, they're pretty much dead.
Like seriously, it's a scary tool. Low risk, and near guarantees a stock if it hits.

My recommendation is to try and get in his face as soon as possible and use Snake's good normals to secure damage and kills as quickly as possible, because if Lucas gets some distance, you'll have lost a lot of ground. Once again, a zoning war isn't recommended, as Lucas can heal off it.
Dash attack and crawling are a good way to sneak past short-hopped f-airs and PK Fires.

I feel Lucas/Ness are very good at getting gimped, especially by snake. Snake's up-b can cancel out your PK Thunder and still recover to the stage, as well as a well timed C4/Z-dropped grenade/Nikeda etc. Snake also has very long limbs so even n-air can sometimes stuff a F-air, especially Snake's B-air. Though I would say snake recovering to ledge with Lucas guarding can be scaring because of a potential b-air spike, d-air spike, or even a sweet spot f-air. Not to mention landing lag is miserable and landing options are very limited. I'd say 55/45 in Lucas' favor.

Spoiler: My Opinion on Snake Match ups

I'm gonna say most of Snake's bad MU will be from sword users, Chrom being the worst (if he gets in) due to how disjointed hitboxes work. Gimping will be our saving grace if they figure out how grenades work, but can also be our down fall if disjointed enemies learn how to space around our up-B. I think this will leave our matchups at 60/40 in swords character's favor, or 70/30 if Marth/Lucina get's any guaranteed combos off our heavy weight. Roy will be pesky because of how fast, but manageable if you shield grenade often, leaving him at 60/40. Link is the one character I think is 50/50 because he can combat grenades with bows and his bombs (also depending on each Link variant, but that's about 3 more paragraphs). Snake's approaches get stuffed by Link's U-air and F-air, but we can punish hard if we bait him out. Watch out of Link N-air bait though as it's landing lag is non existent.

Most Mario Bros/characters that fight with limbs, including rosa, will be 65-55/35-45 in Snake's favor because of how hard hitting Snake is, and because of our stage pressure. Cape will get a little mileage if the (Doc) Mario is smart, but I think Snake can bait it out for some serious damage, as said for Rosa's vortex thing (her Down-B). Fox, also, is in the same catagory because while he can damage us, we can hurt him back as equally hard. Make spacies realize how terrifying our aerials and projectile game is. I'm pretty sure grab combos are viable against all spacies.

Heavy characters should b BnB for Snake because of grenades and grabs can combo them hard. Just be careful of DK's U-air strings and F-air/D-air spikes and he's easy. Only recovery you can't really consistently F-air spike is K-rool, but if K-rool is a little diagonal and above Snake, then you can clip K-rool with the heel of Snake's F-air, granting a spike. D-air is pretty useless against his recovery, so wouldn't recommend. Overall, I think all heavies (with the exception of K-rool) is 65-70/35-30 in Snake's favor because of, again, or stage coverage and how Snake additionally gains more combo options off heavies.

Belmont B O I S are a long match-up that needs a lot of experimenting because there's a lot of options both sides have, as well as Ridley having some untapped potential. I fear Ridley will be our worst match-up if they understand how his Side-B works, and if they can get confirms into his deadly down-b (tails pierce). Ridley's fireball's can hurt our recovery, potentially combo us hard, and stuff grenades. Incenaroar MU is in our favor because how limited his approach is. Just be careful as snake not to do unsafe F-air's around him and watch out for ledge traps, as he can dash dance and Side-B any time to do big damage. He can also Down-B Snake's grenades to power up, and his Down-B can stack (until after a certain amount of time, incenaroar dies, or takes a large amount of damage) which can lead to a kill throw, or his Side-B killing you. I'd say it's 55/45 in Snake's favor, even when Incenaroar reaches full potential.

All this being said, the game is still new, so there is no 100% way to be sure the meta will stay, but this is how I predict it will go using my current knowledge with snake as well as labbing with other characters.

Spoiler: MU ratio Snake/Foe

: 50/50
: 65/35
60/40
: 55/45
: 40/60
: 40/60
: 55/45
: 65/35
: 60/40
: 55/45
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 40/60
: 40/60
: 55/45
: 30/70
: 45/55
: 70/30
: 65/35
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 50/50
: 60/40
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 35/65
: 30/60
: 25/75
: 45/55
: 45/55
(Brawler): 60/40
(Swordfighter): 60/40
(Gunner): 55/45
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 40/60
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 40/60
: 40/60
(COMING SOON):
: 50/50
: 50/50
(Squirtle): 45/55
(Ivysaur): 60/40
(Charizard): 65/35
: 25/75
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 60/40
: 40/60
: 35/65
: 50/50
: 50/50
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 55/45
: 50/50
: ??/??
: ??/??
: No
: 60/40
: 45/55
: 50/50
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 40/60
: 55/45
: 40/60

 

[OldHickory]

As a note on basically every matchup against Incineroar, it boils down to keep him out or die horribly.

This especially goes for Snake, because tanking one grenade mostly charges Revenge, meaning his next successful hit does a tad over double damage.

For reference, that's over 50% on a single successful lariat, or a back throw killing at 50 near the ledge.

 

[Schmidty]

B-air spike goes through snake's recovery if I'm correct. Also grenade gimmick is a glass wall. Once you see through it, snake becomes a lot more reasonable to fight. If he runs at you with a grenade, just grab and pummel 1 or 2 times then throw. you'll get i-frames so you don't have to care about grenade. Though I would say it's more 60/40 in Snake's favor because I agree with you in most your other points.



I feel Lucas/Ness are very good at getting gimped, especially by snake. Snake's up-b can cancel out your PK Thunder and still recover to the stage, as well as a well timed C4/Z-dropped grenade/Nikeda etc. Snake also has very long limbs so even n-air can sometimes stuff a F-air, especially Snake's B-air. Though I would say snake recovering to ledge with Lucas guarding can be scaring because of a potential b-air spike, d-air spike, or even a sweet spot f-air. Not to mention landing lag is miserable and landing options are very limited. I'd say 55/45 in Lucas' favor.[/SPOILER]

Lucas is much harder to gimp than Ness. Lucas PK thunder goes through targets unlike Ness where its a one hit and quit type of deal. If you challenge a Lucas recovery it will be very risky because of how low Lucas can recover. If you can get z-drop grenades to caver ledge then that would probably be the best option in my opinion. ( I am trying to learn Snake as well and I am a current Lucas main.)

 

[MERPIS]

B-air spike goes through snake's recovery if I'm correct. Also grenade gimmick is a glass wall. Once you see through it, snake becomes a lot more reasonable to fight. If he runs at you with a grenade, just grab and pummel 1 or 2 times then throw. you'll get i-frames so you don't have to care about grenade. Though I would say it's more 60/40 in Snake's favor because I agree with you in most your other points.



I feel Lucas/Ness are very good at getting gimped, especially by snake. Snake's up-b can cancel out your PK Thunder and still recover to the stage, as well as a well timed C4/Z-dropped grenade/Nikeda etc. Snake also has very long limbs so even n-air can sometimes stuff a F-air, especially Snake's B-air. Though I would say snake recovering to ledge with Lucas guarding can be scaring because of a potential b-air spike, d-air spike, or even a sweet spot f-air. Not to mention landing lag is miserable and landing options are very limited. I'd say 55/45 in Lucas' favor.

Spoiler: My Opinion on Snake Match ups

I'm gonna say most of Snake's bad MU will be from sword users, Chrom being the worst (if he gets in) due to how disjointed hitboxes work. Gimping will be our saving grace if they figure out how grenades work, but can also be our down fall if disjointed enemies learn how to space around our up-B. I think this will leave our matchups at 60/40 in swords character's favor, or 70/30 if Marth/Lucina get's any guaranteed combos off our heavy weight. Roy will be pesky because of how fast, but manageable if you shield grenade often, leaving him at 60/40. Link is the one character I think is 50/50 because he can combat grenades with bows and his bombs (also depending on each Link variant, but that's about 3 more paragraphs). Snake's approaches get stuffed by Link's U-air and F-air, but we can punish hard if we bait him out. Watch out of Link N-air bait though as it's landing lag is non existent.

Most Mario Bros/characters that fight with limbs, including rosa, will be 65-55/35-45 in Snake's favor because of how hard hitting Snake is, and because of our stage pressure. Cape will get a little mileage if the (Doc) Mario is smart, but I think Snake can bait it out for some serious damage, as said for Rosa's vortex thing (her Down-B). Fox, also, is in the same catagory because while he can damage us, we can hurt him back as equally hard. Make spacies realize how terrifying our aerials and projectile game is. I'm pretty sure grab combos are viable against all spacies.

Heavy characters should b BnB for Snake because of grenades and grabs can combo them hard. Just be careful of DK's U-air strings and F-air/D-air spikes and he's easy. Only recovery you can't really consistently F-air spike is K-rool, but if K-rool is a little diagonal and above Snake, then you can clip K-rool with the heel of Snake's F-air, granting a spike. D-air is pretty useless against his recovery, so wouldn't recommend. Overall, I think all heavies (with the exception of K-rool) is 65-70/35-30 in Snake's favor because of, again, or stage coverage and how Snake additionally gains more combo options off heavies.

Belmont B O I S are a long match-up that needs a lot of experimenting because there's a lot of options both sides have, as well as Ridley having some untapped potential. I fear Ridley will be our worst match-up if they understand how his Side-B works, and if they can get confirms into his deadly down-b (tails pierce). Ridley's fireball's can hurt our recovery, potentially combo us hard, and stuff grenades. Incenaroar MU is in our favor because how limited his approach is. Just be careful as snake not to do unsafe F-air's around him and watch out for ledge traps, as he can dash dance and Side-B any time to do big damage. He can also Down-B Snake's grenades to power up, and his Down-B can stack (until after a certain amount of time, incenaroar dies, or takes a large amount of damage) which can lead to a kill throw, or his Side-B killing you. I'd say it's 55/45 in Snake's favor, even when Incenaroar reaches full potential.

All this being said, the game is still new, so there is no 100% way to be sure the meta will stay, but this is how I predict it will go using my current knowledge with snake as well as labbing with other characters.

Spoiler: MU ratio Snake/Foe

: 50/50
: 65/35
60/40
: 55/45
: 40/60
: 40/60
: 55/45
: 65/35
: 60/40
: 55/45
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 40/60
: 40/60
: 55/45
: 30/70
: 45/55
: 70/30
: 65/35
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 50/50
: 60/40
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 35/65
: 30/60
: 25/75
: 45/55
: 45/55
(Brawler): 60/40
(Swordfighter): 60/40
(Gunner): 55/45
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 40/60
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 40/60
: 40/60
(COMING SOON):
: 50/50
: 50/50
(Squirtle): 45/55
(Ivysaur): 60/40
(Charizard): 65/35
: 25/75
: 55/45
: 55/45
: 60/40
: 40/60
: 35/65
: 50/50
: 50/50
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 55/45
: 50/50
: ??/??
: ??/??
: No
: 60/40
: 45/55
: 50/50
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 60/40
: 40/60
: 55/45
: 40/60

Multiple of these are extremely generous and wrong, Sonic, Yoshi, Wolf, Puff, and Fox are definitely losing meanwhile how the heck is Ridley that bad for him?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Multiple of these are extremely generous and wrong, Sonic, Yoshi, Wolf, Puff, and Fox are definitely losing meanwhile how the heck is Ridley that bad for him?

Do you mean losing for Snake?

For Fox, we have Ally vs Larry match we can watch. We did see Ally switch to Mario for that match, so I'm thinking that it may be a bad one for Snake. I noticed neutral is a disadvantage due to how fast Fox is - both movement and frame data make him one of the fastest characters in the game as a whole and he juggles Snake like nobody's business - even if Fox's recovery is still pretty exploitable (within the first minutes of match Ally spiked him). I'm tempted to say that it is in Fox's favor but not by much:
https://youtu.be/M1u_S180y_M

I'm unsure about Wolf, Puff, Yoshi, and Sanic. Ditto Ridley.

 

[speedguy20]

Lucas is much harder to gimp than Ness. Lucas PK thunder goes through targets unlike Ness where its a one hit and quit type of deal. If you challenge a Lucas recovery it will be very risky because of how low Lucas can recover. If you can get z-drop grenades to caver ledge then that would probably be the best option in my opinion. ( I am trying to learn Snake as well and I am a current Lucas main.)

Didn't know the recover part about Lucas. I still feel it's fairly gimpable especially with Snake's long legs (run off B-air is god tier for gimping and can lead to F-air spike if they tech against the stage). Also snake's Nakida can interrupt it.

Multiple of these are extremely generous and wrong, Sonic, Yoshi, Wolf, Puff, and Fox are definitely losing meanwhile how the heck is Ridley that bad for him?

>Sonic
I was going to make it 70/30 in Snake's favor but that's because Sonic has no tools to get around Snake's Grenade spam. He can't spindash us or he risks taking 10% grenade and potentially an U-air string from Snake. Sonic can't really recover without either taking loads of damage, or getting early gimped due to a very predictable recovery, and if you can't do these as Snake then I think you need to hit the lab a bit. All these combined with Sonic having a fairly poor combo game due to Snake's weight makes it so that Sonic has no advantage whatsoever (Unless Snake is 100%+, and Sonic get's a F-smash read.)
>Yoshi
I will say his F-air and D-air are scary, his B-air can kill surprisingly well, and his hyper armor on second jump makes him a pain to gimp, however, this means that Yoshi will take more damage while offstage, leading to an easier time with a Nakida ledge trap, or U-smash. Snake outmatches Yoshi for the same purpose as Sonic, grenade camping, as well as having really bad OOS options. I haven't gotten many shield breaks with snake, but I matched up against a couple of Yoshis one day and found that Grenade+Aerial pressure on Yoshi's shield either means a shield break, free damage, or Yoshi rolls and you get a free dash attack follow up, due to the endlag of rolling. I wouldn't say it's anything more or less than a 60/40 in Snake's favor just because of how Yoshi is forced to approach then gets punished for shielding or ever going offstage with that sweet sweet explosive damage.
>Wolf
That weight makes it feel like we get Sheik's combo game, espcially with U-throw to stick being viable. Again, Wolf can't do much about shield pressure since he is awkwardly slow, Wolf's projectile is laggy, and Wolf's shine puts him in hitstun after he reflects, so you can either pull out another grenade while he is stuck, and either lob it, or run up with it and do usual Snake pressure. I will say Wolf destroys Snake offstage due to the angles F/B-air and U-air can cover, but once Wolf is off stage, that should be basically like a Lil'Mac off stage.
>Puff
Unless you're just gonna Hbox the matchup and only B-air, I doubt puff will be able to get in Snake's defense., and even if she does, snake has longer limbs, meaning Snake will always either trade, or win the exchange, which always benefits Snake and anytime puff takes even 10% from snake, that's pretty much like doing 40% to any other character on the roster. Just a B-air alone can do 13% damage. I will say if Puff get's Snake offstage, he should die (unless at >50%), and Snake can't get good U-air strings because of Puff's weight, but Snake's stage coverage, Big hitboxes (looking at you F-air,B-air, and U-air) and ledge trap options make it a steep hill for Puff to climb.
>Fox
Yea with more research I think it's 55/45 or 50/50 with how fast Fox is, as well as all the angles he can come back from, as well as the insane combo game that he has with the near no OOS options Snake has. However, I feel like gimping will be the way most Fox's lose their stock to Snake, as Fox's recovery is so predictable, and will make Snake near the ledge feel like a death sentence for Fox, but I also feel more Fox mains will learn to stay on stage and U-smash Snake's recovery so I could see this match up being 50/50.
>Ridley
Ridley has some untapped potential. I fear Ridley will be our worst match-up if they understand how his Side-B works, and if they can get confirms into his deadly down-b (tails pierce). Ridley's fireball's can hurt our recovery, potentially combo us hard, and stuff grenades. As well as how Ridley can just jump off stage and F-air us till we die. Ridley is heavy so U-throw combos will work, and U-air is a big threat towards Ridley because his only option is D-air, but it's laggy and easy to react, and gimping Ridley will be 4/10 difficult, mainly his Up-b hit box being a little...wonky. Overall, I'd say this is eiether 70/30 or 65/35 in Ridley's favor.

 

[MERPIS]

Didn't know the recover part about Lucas. I still feel it's fairly gimpable especially with Snake's long legs (run off B-air is god tier for gimping and can lead to F-air spike if they tech against the stage). Also snake's Nakida can interrupt it.

>Sonic
I was going to make it 70/30 in Snake's favor but that's because Sonic has no tools to get around Snake's Grenade spam. He can't spindash us or he risks taking 10% grenade and potentially an U-air string from Snake. Sonic can't really recover without either taking loads of damage, or getting early gimped due to a very predictable recovery, and if you can't do these as Snake then I think you need to hit the lab a bit. All these combined with Sonic having a fairly poor combo game due to Snake's weight makes it so that Sonic has no advantage whatsoever (Unless Snake is 100%+, and Sonic get's a F-smash read.)
>Yoshi
I will say his F-air and D-air are scary, his B-air can kill surprisingly well, and his hyper armor on second jump makes him a pain to gimp, however, this means that Yoshi will take more damage while offstage, leading to an easier time with a Nakida ledge trap, or U-smash. Snake outmatches Yoshi for the same purpose as Sonic, grenade camping, as well as having really bad OOS options. I haven't gotten many shield breaks with snake, but I matched up against a couple of Yoshis one day and found that Grenade+Aerial pressure on Yoshi's shield either means a shield break, free damage, or Yoshi rolls and you get a free dash attack follow up, due to the endlag of rolling. I wouldn't say it's anything more or less than a 60/40 in Snake's favor just because of how Yoshi is forced to approach then gets punished for shielding or ever going offstage with that sweet sweet explosive damage.
>Wolf
That weight makes it feel like we get Sheik's combo game, espcially with U-throw to stick being viable. Again, Wolf can't do much about shield pressure since he is awkwardly slow, Wolf's projectile is laggy, and Wolf's shine puts him in hitstun after he reflects, so you can either pull out another grenade while he is stuck, and either lob it, or run up with it and do usual Snake pressure. I will say Wolf destroys Snake offstage due to the angles F/B-air and U-air can cover, but once Wolf is off stage, that should be basically like a Lil'Mac off stage.
>Puff
Unless you're just gonna Hbox the matchup and only B-air, I doubt puff will be able to get in Snake's defense., and even if she does, snake has longer limbs, meaning Snake will always either trade, or win the exchange, which always benefits Snake and anytime puff takes even 10% from snake, that's pretty much like doing 40% to any other character on the roster. Just a B-air alone can do 13% damage. I will say if Puff get's Snake offstage, he should die (unless at >50%), and Snake can't get good U-air strings because of Puff's weight, but Snake's stage coverage, Big hitboxes (looking at you F-air,B-air, and U-air) and ledge trap options make it a steep hill for Puff to climb.
>Fox
Yea with more research I think it's 55/45 or 50/50 with how fast Fox is, as well as all the angles he can come back from, as well as the insane combo game that he has with the near no OOS options Snake has. However, I feel like gimping will be the way most Fox's lose their stock to Snake, as Fox's recovery is so predictable, and will make Snake near the ledge feel like a death sentence for Fox, but I also feel more Fox mains will learn to stay on stage and U-smash Snake's recovery so I could see this match up being 50/50.
>Ridley
Ridley has some untapped potential. I fear Ridley will be our worst match-up if they understand how his Side-B works, and if they can get confirms into his deadly down-b (tails pierce). Ridley's fireball's can hurt our recovery, potentially combo us hard, and stuff grenades. As well as how Ridley can just jump off stage and F-air us till we die. Ridley is heavy so U-throw combos will work, and U-air is a big threat towards Ridley because his only option is D-air, but it's laggy and easy to react, and gimping Ridley will be 4/10 difficult, mainly his Up-b hit box being a little...wonky. Overall, I'd say this is eiether 70/30 or 65/35 in Ridley's favor.

Ok, but why is Olimar so bad for snek

 

[OldHickory]

Just a note about fighting Isabelle, you really don't want her pocketing a mortar.
It's detrimental for her to pocket grenades, since it just pauses their fuse, meaning they just might blow up as she pulls them out.
A Nikita isn't the end of the world, but it becomes a really nasty projectile.

However, the mortar is bad for you.
Hits pretty hard as is, and receives that delicious 90% power increase.
Flies straight up when released from the pocket.
If you get caught by one of her mines and she has the mortar pocketed, you just might be losing a stock, as her mine puts you up pretty high.
I still need to check percentages, though.

Not really sure how Snake can get past the fishing rod, either.
Counts as a hitgrab, so I'm pretty sure it can't be armored through.
Isabelle and Lucas share a pretty nasty edgeguard.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Not really sure how Snake can get past the fishing rod, either.
Counts as a hitgrab, so I'm pretty sure it can't be armored through.
Isabelle and Lucas share a pretty nasty edgeguard.

Fishing rod edgeguards are rough because they don't care about up b super armor, ideally Snake should be avoiding that situation. If he's recovering low he has to drop the cypher and air dodge up or c4 jump. Recovering high is better since he can use down air for that jump boost, air dodge other directions or pull a grenade out; I've thrown it to some Isabelle players on purpose just so the fishing rod catches it. As you said I'm not too concerned if she pockets the grenade since Snake can keep pulling more out.

On another topic. I'm not very familiar with Sonic in this game. Is he really bad now? I've hardly seen him anywhere in tourneys, aside from a few dedicated mains and key top players... what happened to him?

And even then... I'm sure he can't be so one dimensional he has to rely on Spindashes for approaches... that sounds like all the bad Sonic mains in Smash4 tbh

 

[speedguy20]

Ok, but why is Olimar so bad for snek

Low profile. D-air and F-air can be annoying to space, and good Olimars can weave around grenades while throwing pickmen at you, making you take damage while he out spaces your grenades, then Olimar's combo game is pretty dank in sm5sh, especially with Snake being more of a heavy weight. If Olimar gets a purple pickmen out, you better pray he doesn't F-air you with it or you WILL feel it.

Just a note about fighting Isabelle, you really don't want her pocketing a mortar.
It's detrimental for her to pocket grenades, since it just pauses their fuse, meaning they just might blow up as she pulls them out.
A Nikita isn't the end of the world, but it becomes a really nasty projectile.

However, the mortar is bad for you.
Hits pretty hard as is, and receives that delicious 90% power increase.
Flies straight up when released from the pocket.
If you get caught by one of her mines and she has the mortar pocketed, you just might be losing a stock, as her mine puts you up pretty high.
I still need to check percentages, though.

Not really sure how Snake can get past the fishing rod, either.
Counts as a hitgrab, so I'm pretty sure it can't be armored through.
Isabelle and Lucas share a pretty nasty edgeguard.

If an Isabelle is pocketing your mortar then that means you're being waaaay to spammy with it, or using it in very obvious situations (IE when she is above Snake). This matchup is VERY annoying though as that fishing line is annoying and can be very potent to edge guarding snake.

Fishing rod edgeguards are rough because they don't care about up b super armor, ideally Snake should be avoiding that situation. If he's recovering low he has to drop the cypher and air dodge up or c4 jump. Recovering high is better since he can use down air for that jump boost, air dodge other directions or pull a grenade out; I've thrown it to some Isabelle players on purpose just so the fishing rod catches it. As you said I'm not too concerned if she pockets the grenade since Snake can keep pulling more out.

This basically sums up the whole ledge game with Isabelle and about 60% of neutral. Just gotta be extremely careful of the recall for her fishing line as it's an active hitbox on the way back. iirc, you can use grenades to pop Isabelle's down-b so that's not much of an issue since most of Snake's gameplay is to lob nades and break defenses. Just be careful of being above Isabelle because that D-air has no landing lag, spikes, and is disjointed as well as being fast as hell, and her F-air (slingshot) racks up damage real quick while being able to keep foes at bay. I'm starting to this this is a matchup where Snake should be really aggressive and use grenades more to cover rolling rather than trying to force Isabelle to come to Snake.

On another topic. I'm not very familiar with Sonic in this game. Is he really bad now? I've hardly seen him anywhere in tourneys, aside from a few dedicated mains and key top players... what happened to him?

And even then... I'm sure he can't be so one dimensional he has to rely on Spindashes for approaches... that sounds like all the bad Sonic mains in Smash4 tbh

Well it's mainly because they can't really change Sonic too much without making him a broken combo machine (checkout Project M for that) or being incredibly lame (like Sm4sh), so they've just added near no landing lag to his aerials and I'm pretty sure gave a little bit more killing power towards F-air and B-air, which does help with edge guarding, but otherwise everything is the same, and considering how Snake will be lobbing grenades, Sonic probably can't even Spindash spam so there goes 70% of Sonic's approach and combo game, and if I'm correct, none of Sonic's throws can't combo Snake because of how heavy he is (until like 50ish).


Regardless of what I say though, MU ratio doesn't mean if snake is in a 60/40 then Snake will always win, but rather if both players are the exact same skill level, then Snake should win, though Smash can be jank sometimes, and Snake is arguably the hardest character to consistently use at max performance.

 

[DavemanCozy]

speedguy20 you can also break Isabelles down B Lloyd trap with down tilt if you're close. Snakes should start doing that more to get rid of her setups.

You can duck and crawl under the SH slingshot aerials too. Makes the approach a lot simpler against her and Villager

 

[Miley]

c4 destroys Cloud when he doesn't have limit (no ledge snap).

Between that, nades (double nade his up B and if he's not in that small sweet spot range that lets him ledge snap, good damage), and Nikita, Cloud is pretty easy to mess up once you get him off the level

 

[Ginsai]

How about the Belmonts and their range? Most likely Snake wins this I’m just observing every possibility, and I’m like hey what about character that can possibly pummel snake with his own projectiles and out range him. I however see a snake countering this. I’m not good with either players. Just been playing good snakes lately and it gets me interested in match up possibilities

Snake has no problem against Ridley. He can shut down all of his tools. Side B doesn’t work cause once you run into grenade snake has dropped it sets it back to neutral for Snake. And trying to get back on the stage with Ridley against snake is a nightmare.

 

[DavemanCozy]

How about the Belmonts and their range? Most likely Snake wins this I’m just observing every possibility, and I’m like hey what about character that can possibly pummel snake with his own projectiles and out range him. I however see a snake countering this. I’m not good with either players. Just been playing good snakes lately and it gets me interested in match up possibilities

Snake's crouch and crawl are very good against the Belmonts, without it he'd be outranged and outcamped. By crawling he can safely get under f-tilt and the cross, though you still have to watch out for their d-tilt, holy water, angled down aerials, and angled down f-smash. It also helps that Snake has very good range on his d-tilt himself, the angle it sends opponents is very favorable. Ditto dash attack which has great range itself.

Belmonts are very weak offstage but very good at edgeguarding too. So that means Nikita missiles pummel them, but they also keep Snake offstage relatively well.

 

[Ginsai]

Snake's crouch and crawl are very good against the Belmonts, without it he'd be outranged and outcamped. By crawling he can safely get under f-tilt and the cross, though you still have to watch out for their d-tilt, holy water, angled down aerials, and angled down f-smash. It also helps that Snake has very good range on his d-tilt himself, the angle it sends opponents is very favorable. Ditto dash attack which has great range itself.

Belmonts are very weak offstage but very good at edgeguarding too. So that means Nikita missiles pummel them, but they also keep Snake offstage relatively well.

So about 40/60 in snakes favor? Belmont’s have some answers but Snake has adaptation? Thanks for the info either way. I do appreciate it. I know both my mains haven’t faired well against Snake which is Ridley and Mewtwo.

 

[DavemanCozy]

So about 40/60 in snakes favor? Belmont’s have some answers but Snake has adaptation? Thanks for the info either way. I do appreciate it. I know both my mains haven’t faired well against Snake which is Ridley and Mewtwo.

In the current metagame, maybe a slight advantage for Snake regarding the Belmonts. Only by a bit. It's not like they're easy to approach in the first place, Snake has the tools to do so but in application it isn't straightforward. It's a volatile matchup, both can take stocks easily once they gain the upper hand in the match.

 

[cmbsfm]

Tips and thoughts against Samus? Been having trouble against a lot of dark/normal Samuses lately. Probably just me being bad but just curious on Snake’s advantages/disadvantages against here.

 

[the_lennyface]

Tips and thoughts against Samus? Been having trouble against a lot of dark/normal Samuses lately. Probably just me being bad but just curious on Snake’s advantages/disadvantages against here.

I have a friend that plays a lot of Samus and although he's not a competitive player, he beats me pretty often! I believe her projectiles can get the best of us from time to time but Snake has better map control. Try to shield burst her often since her attacks are pretty telegraphed and use the C4 to put pressure or punish a careless move.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Grenades are good against Samus. Cooking them, then throwing it is a great way to force a reaction out of her, like shield, a dodge, etc.

Juggling Samus is important because she's very floaty and gives you time to pull more grenades out or set up some explosive missiles and C4 traps. It also makes you worry less about missiles and the charge shot.

 

[YarnGames]

:
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:30/70
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:35/65
:40/60
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:30/70
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: 60/40
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: 45/55
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:
(Brawler):
(Swordfighter):
(Gunner):
:
: 55/45
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:
(COMING SOON):
:
:
(Squirtle):
(Ivysaur):55/45
(Charizard):60/30
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: 50/50
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:45/55
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:

I put in some of the mu I think is in either snakes favor or not in his favor

 

[DavemanCozy]

I don't really see Cloud losing that bad to Snake tbh...

I mean yeah the man's pretty free offstage with remote missiles, but onstage he's still pretty dangerous and fast... and has disjointed range. Maybe slight disadvantage for Snake I'd say...

 

[YarnGames]

I feel cloud is a bad mu but if we look at zero vs ally it look even

 

[MERPIS]

: 55/45

This is beyond funny and wrong

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Tips and thoughts against Samus? Been having trouble against a lot of dark/normal Samuses lately. Probably just me being bad but just curious on Snake’s advantages/disadvantages against here.

I have a friend that plays a lot of Samus and although he's not a competitive player, he beats me pretty often! I believe her projectiles can get the best of us from time to time but Snake has better map control. Try to shield burst her often since her attacks are pretty telegraphed and use the C4 to put pressure or punish a careless move.

Just to follow up on the Samus vs Snake matchup, ESAM (who's usually using Pikachu in tournaments) switched to Samus specifically for his sets against MVD (one of the best Snake players, if not the best) at the Grind 60. The two are trainning partners apparently so it's safe to assume that ESAM have a lot of experience against Snake, giving his decision to switch character some strategic significance (maybe). Anyways, i'll drop the footage from the 2 sets here in case you guys want to analyze the matchup some more:

Spoiler: The Grind 60 - Winners Finals - ESAM vs MVD

Spoiler: The Grind 60 - Grand Finals - ESAM vs MVD

Notes:
-ESAM switched back to Pikachu for the last match of the Grand Finals after losing 2 matches to MVD. Maybe he felt like MVD was starting to adapt to Samus... or as the commentators said it might have been an attempt to change the pace and destabilize MVD.
-The 'SAM' in ESAM stands for Samus so it's not a total surprise to see him use Samus. But he certainly had a reason to use her instead of Pikachu for most of his matches against MVD.

 

[DavemanCozy]

ESAM is one of the only pros who's switched to Samus mid-sets and pulled surprises before. He did that in Smash4 too, he knows the character well and it helps that not many know how to fight a good Samus. Although it's true that MVD and ESAM are both friends who play together often, I dunno maybe ESAM knew something about MVD Or maybe Samus is just a way better character this time around (I'll believe it)

Let me deviate a bit: I honestly don't know what MVD sees in Yoshis Island. That stage has always felt pretty awful to me for some of Snake's ground control. The platform in the middle also doesn't do many favors when trying to escape a juggle situation... could any other (better) Snakes shed some light if you like that stage?

 

[MG_3989]

This is beyond funny and wrong

I have no idea how two different matchup spreads in this thread have this matchup in Snakes favor

There is absolutely no way Snake has a good matchup with Ness. It’s unquestionably in Ness’s favor. Ness’s PSI Magnet makes Nikita, Usmash, Fsmash, and Gernades extremely hard to use for Snake taking away his whole game basically and healing from it on top of that. Snake is also combo food for Ness, Snake can’t keep up with Ness in the air and nair gets Snake right off Ness if he’s up close, and PK Thunder juggles snake for days. I don’t know how you guys could possibly think Snake wins that matchup. Ness oppresses Snake

Watch Awestin vs. MVD. Awestin wins and he doesn’t even play the matchup optimally and ignores a lot of his options that he can use to oppress Snake. Yeah Awestin is really good but so is MVD

 

[DavemanCozy]

Oh I see Yarn meant that we lose the Cloud matchup... which sounds reasonable to me but doesn't seem like it should be that bad either for snake lol. It definetely seems closer to even but I could see a +1 for Cloud.

For Ness I think it's closer to even myself too, +1 at least for Ness. I agree that the matchup is a drastic change for Snake. Cooking grenades and smart C4 setup here is key. Of course PSI magnet absorbs them but it can be baited too. I think what pushes it to Ness favor is disjointed hitboxes

 

[MG_3989]

Oh I see Yarn meant that we lose the Cloud matchup... which sounds reasonable to me but doesn't seem like it should be that bad either for snake lol. It definetely seems closer to even but I could see a +1 for Cloud.

For Ness I think it's closer to even myself too, +1 at least for Ness. I agree that the matchup is a drastic change for Snake. Cooking grenades and smart C4 setup here is key. Of course PSI magnet absorbs them but it can be baited too. I think what pushes it to Ness favor is disjointed hitboxes

I definitely think Snake can win the Ness matchup but it’s probably one of his hardest if not his hardest matchup. It’s not close to even

Snake has to completely change the way he plays and if Ness plays well, does a good job of using PSI Magnet, and stays really aggressive on advantage he can overwhelm Snake quickly. Ness doesn’t let Snake play his slow methodical trap game in more than one way. I think it’s more than +1 and I’m not saying Snake can’t win because MVD almost beat Awestin but it’s definitely not a matchup any Snake wants to see in bracket

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I definitely think Snake can win the Ness matchup but it’s probably one of his hardest if not his hardest matchup. It’s not close to even

Snake has to completely change the way he plays and if Ness plays well, does a good job of using PSI Magnet, and stays really aggressive on advantage he can overwhelm Snake quickly. Ness doesn’t let Snake play his slow methodical trap game in more than one way. I think it’s more than +1 and I’m not saying Snake can’t win because MVD almost beat Awestin but it’s definitely not a matchup any Snake wants to see in bracket

You bring some good points, Ness seems like a one of Snake's worst matchups. Tho there must be some way to work around PSI Magnet... maybe by focusing more on the basics of CQC (spamming dash attacks ) but as you said, it ''completely changes the way he (Snake) plays'' so it's far from ideal.

I don't have a lot of experience against Ness players but one thing for sure, Ness's recovery is extremely vulnerable to the Nikita so at least there's that (i still thinks the matchup is in Ness advantage but i'm just saying it could prove to be an exploitable weakness).

 

[MG_3989]

You bring some good points, Ness seems like a one of Snake's worst matchups. Tho there must be some way to work around PSI Magnet... maybe by focusing more on the basics of CQC (spamming dash attacks ) but as you said, it ''completely changes the way he (Snake) plays'' so it's far from ideal.

I don't have a lot of experience against Ness players but one thing for sure, Ness's recovery is extremely vulnerable to the Nikita so at least there's that (i still thinks the matchup is in Ness advantage but i'm just saying it could prove to be an exploitable weakness).

Well that’s really Ness’s only exploitable weakness in the matchup and he could use PSI Magnet and airdodge while recovering to stop momentum instead of PKT2 and eat up that Nikita. Plus Ness can exploit Snake’s recovery quite well with PK Thunder. I’m not saying it’s not a viable strategy though, it is

Dash attack is a pain in the ass though although Ness’s aerials beat it out. I think out of the high/top tiers Ness may be Snakes toughest relevant matchup. Like I said he can win, he just has to adapt. I’d probably say 60/40 in Ness’s favor or something around that. And that’s not a bad thing because I don’t think Snake as a lot of bad relevant matchups with Ness maybe being the only one

 

[DavemanCozy]

Yea Ness is bad for Snake but it just means that you have to adapt as the Snake player. I have managed to bait out the PSI magnet and use d-tilt and b-air, SH n-air and SH d-air to great effect when approaching. Personally I feel much worse when fighting Pokemon Trainer (specifically Ivysaur...) than Ness.

Another character where you have to adapt your grenade strats is King Dedede. While he's a worse character than Ness, I do think that his Inhale can shut down grenade spacing pretty well. That and he ledge-traps Snake like it's nothing. Usually I find Snake bodies the heavies, but DDD seems to be an exception.

 

[HeadofHudet]

I think adaptation is a huge thing for Snake's matchups in general. In particular, Ness (and Lucas for that matter) have broken tools that shuts Snake's A4 game plans down, but since Snake has a lot of adaptation potential, I can see him winning this matchup if both players are at top level.

For one, Ness's neutral sucks. While he has air mobility and good aerials, he's slow and predictable on the ground and is super floaty, so you're bound to just evade his aerial game and wait for his landings to punish. You can more or less force it to be a grounded game, which Snake is a lot better at. Granted, I haven't met a Ness at my own level or better yet, but I haven't ever lost a single game to one as Snake either, online or offline.

Snake has a lot of tools to exploit Ness's weaknesses. Like getting back to neutral. Just chasing him with utilt while in the air is easy as he takes forever to land, and you have time to set up your plays in neutral as he's really slow. If he second jumps, punish him for it, whether through a trade or something else. Nikita also destroys him offstage if you suspend it right; it can easily cover second jump and air dodge without being in danger of being magneted. He'll actually as good as forfeit the stock if he even tries for magnet.

That being said, Ness will take great advantage of every braindead explosive you use. Other than freak scenarios, mortars shouldn't be encouraged at all I think, as they are too predictable, and Snake's key in this matchup other than exploiting Ness weaknesses is mind games, which he has a lot of potential for.

In neutral, I would try to keep every grenade close. They'll cover options while also preventing him from healing without getting punished. Never throw unless it's right before it detonates, and only as a mixup.
Naturally, it's a good position when you keep Ness between you and the C4, and don't detonate it willynilly if he's close even if you just want to replace it. Like I've expressed so far, every explosive must be deliberate.

As for your own recovery... there are definitely worse characters to play against. PK Thunder is a nuisance, but I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that Snake's up b armors the entire thing, and the cypher hitbox makes Snake one of the few characters that can effectively avoid yoyo ledgetraps. Same with such as Wolf's dsmash ledgetrap, by the way; angle Snake's drift during up b so that when you air dodge, the cypher will hit Wolf where the first dsmash hitbox isn't, which is underneath/behind him. Otherwise he'll destroy the cypher and extend the hitbox to two-frame you even if you air dodge perfectly.

On mid-level, I would call this a 30-70 disadvantage for Snake, but more like 55-45 advantage for Snake at optimal plays. Snake is still limited in his playstyle and Ness's execution game in Ultimate is devastating, but Snake actually recovers back to stage fairly well against Ness in particular, even though that's perhaps his biggest weakness in general, and he destroys Ness offstage himself. He still has plenty of good options up his sleave and should have a more dominating neutral if he plays it right. Maybe even more like 60-40 simply because of the fact that Snake's adaptibility tools are just that wide and broad.

I actually think Lucas is a little bit harder. He's easier to punish when using magnet so you can go for more baits like that while having more freedom with your plays and his execution game isn't anything like Ness's, but he has a better neutral game and a much better recovery, which matters. More like 50-50 at top level I think. 40-60 at mid.

Just my thoughts, anyways... point is that I think Snake has a lot of untapped meta changer elements about him, and I don't think he's gonna be held back by gimmicks in the long run.

 

[MERPIS]

I think adaptation is a huge thing for Snake's matchups in general. In particular, Ness (and Lucas for that matter) have broken tools that shuts Snake's A4 game plans down, but since Snake has a lot of adaptation potential, I can see him winning this matchup if both players are at top level.

For one, Ness's neutral sucks. While he has air mobility and good aerials, he's slow and predictable on the ground and is super floaty, so you're bound to just evade his aerial game and wait for his landings to punish. You can more or less force it to be a grounded game, which Snake is a lot better at. Granted, I haven't met a Ness at my own level or better yet, but I haven't ever lost a single game to one as Snake either, online or offline.

Snake has a lot of tools to exploit Ness's weaknesses. Like getting back to neutral. Just chasing him with utilt while in the air is easy as he takes forever to land, and you have time to set up your plays in neutral as he's really slow. If he second jumps, punish him for it, whether through a trade or something else. Nikita also destroys him offstage if you suspend it right; it can easily cover second jump and air dodge without being in danger of being magneted. He'll actually as good as forfeit the stock if he even tries for magnet.

That being said, Ness will take great advantage of every braindead explosive you use. Other than freak scenarios, mortars shouldn't be encouraged at all I think, as they are too predictable, and Snake's key in this matchup other than exploiting Ness weaknesses is mind games, which he has a lot of potential for.

In neutral, I would try to keep every grenade close. They'll cover options while also preventing him from healing without getting punished. Never throw unless it's right before it detonates, and only as a mixup.
Naturally, it's a good position when you keep Ness between you and the C4, and don't detonate it willynilly if he's close even if you just want to replace it. Like I've expressed so far, every explosive must be deliberate.

As for your own recovery... there are definitely worse characters to play against. PK Thunder is a nuisance, but I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that Snake's up b armors the entire thing, and the cypher hitbox makes Snake one of the few characters that can effectively avoid yoyo ledgetraps. Same with such as Wolf's dsmash ledgetrap, by the way; angle Snake's drift during up b so that when you air dodge, the cypher will hit Wolf where the first dsmash hitbox isn't, which is underneath/behind him. Otherwise he'll destroy the cypher and extend the hitbox to two-frame you even if you air dodge perfectly.

On mid-level, I would call this a 30-70 disadvantage for Snake, but more like 55-45 advantage for Snake at optimal plays. Snake is still limited in his playstyle and Ness's execution game in Ultimate is devastating, but Snake actually recovers back to stage fairly well against Ness in particular, even though that's perhaps his biggest weakness in general, and he destroys Ness offstage himself. He still has plenty of good options up his sleave and should have a more dominating neutral if he plays it right. Maybe even more like 60-40 simply because of the fact that Snake's adaptibility tools are just that wide and broad.

I actually think Lucas is a little bit harder. He's easier to punish when using magnet so you can go for more baits like that while having more freedom with your plays and his execution game isn't anything like Ness's, but he has a better neutral game and a much better recovery, which matters. More like 50-50 at top level I think. 40-60 at mid.

Just my thoughts, anyways... point is that I think Snake has a lot of untapped meta changer elements about him, and I don't think he's gonna be held back by gimmicks in the long run.

No ness wins

 

[MG_3989]

First off Ness's neutral definitely doesn't suck HeadofHudet and he has plenty of options and mix ups. Seems like you pretty severely underestimate Ness (like you've said you havent fought a high level Ness, there's literally no way that MU is 60/40 in Snake's favor). Also Snake doesn't recover well against Ness at all. PK Thunder and literally everyone of Ness's Aerials scares Snake in Cypher and when Ness is below him. Just watch how many times Awestin sniped MVD for a stock with PKT while Snake was recovering not to mention a spike or two out of cypher. PK Fire and dairy can trap Snake recovering low and PK Thunder gives Snake a lot of trouble recovering high. Ness is one of the best edgeguarders in the game and you'd be really silly to say Snake has an especially easy time recovering against Ness

Other than that came here to revise some things I said. After watching Awestin vs MVD tonight I think that at most the MU is 55/45 in Ness's favor but I'd be more apt to call it even or volatile. It's obvious that MVD heavily prepared for Ness and Awestin individually because we all knew that would be grands and will be grands in any tournament they both attend. It was heavily momentum based and MVD did out adapt Awestin in the end. MVD was prepared to punish Awestin's use of magnet and utilt is so huge for Snake in this MU, without it it might actually be that 65/45 MU in Ness's favor. I think MVD in particular knows the Ness MU well and has figured out how to play it but he still had to work incredibly hard tonight to win. I think if a Snake main goes into the Ness MU unprepared they have a high chance of getting bodided and the spread really is more around 60/40 in Ness's favor. However if Snake goes into the set prepared for magnet and prepared to punish it it's closer to even. That being said Snake still has to out mind game Ness by a good amount to win (luckily for Snake mains this is what you guys do, mind games) and will always have to work hard

Right now if you put a gun to my head I'd say at the absolute highest level the MU is even and volatile (example being MVD vs Awestin) but anything lower than that it gets skewed more and more in Ness's favor. I wouldn't argue if you said Ness wins 55/45. I personally haven't lost to a Snake and we haven't seen a lot of high level Snake vs Ness MUs that aren't MVD vs Awestin and MVD obviously excels at the MU so I'd like to see more pro level Ness vs Snake MUs before making a final decision on the MU

The cool thing is this is a really fun MU to watch, theory craft, and play and I think both characters are solidly high tier (with Snake possibly being top tier, definitrly top 10 imo) and I don't think either characters are going to drop off in relevance so we're gonna be seeing a lot of this MU in the future and it's a MU both Ness and Snake mains will need to learn how to play. MVD vs Awestin is literally my favorite rivalry in Ultimate right now and I look forward to watching them play throughout the rest of Ultimate's lifecycle. I'd still like to see Salem or another top Snake against Awestin to see how they'd fare because MVD came so prepared for Awestin and Ness in general. I know I kind of rambled a lot but if you're a Snake main who's having trouble with Ness watch MVD play Awestin (also if you guys didn't watch the sets tonight please do yourself a favor and go watch them. They were awesome sets). This is becoming one of the most interesting MUs in the game to me