Snake in PM 3.5 discussion

[MudkipUniverse]

Yeah honestly Snake has awful matchups with a third of the cast, how can anybody think he needs nerfing?

C4 stick hitbox is perfectly sized (it misses if you aren't precise) and only kills with a proper launcher because you can shield/roll/spot dodge it on reaction. As far as power, it KOs Puff at 74% at the lowest and Captain Falcon at 135% at the highest (with no DI on Final Destination—the most neutral ceiling) and isn't even his strongest KO option: an uncharged mine will KO earlier 9/10 times—the lest 1/10 is a tie, which can be comboed into just as easily, let alone forcing/tricking an opponent into one; on top of that, fully charged mines KO Puff at 44%, so there's that . The C4 is a really good option, but it's far from overpowered and far from the best Snake has.

Cypher is a hugely punishable for recovery (you can still get meteored/spiked by a well-spaced aerial and you're vulnerable on the sides because of Snake's slow aerials) and his poor aerial mobility makes it very predictable for edgeguarding, forcing him to recover high, a place no one really wants to be. It is also his only good OoS option because all of his aerials are slow (the next best is dair in 7 frames [4 frame jumpsquat+frame 3 hitbox], tied with shield grab), so taking that away takes away Snake's ability to break out of pressure and reestablish the neutral game—the crux of his metagame. Changing Cypher at all ruins Snake's game.

Grenades and maybe aerials are the only things I'd like to see changed.For grenades, the ability to have two out at a time OR an explosion on impact would be great, of which only the second is reasonable because two grenades gives you so much more stage control it'd be unreal to try to approach Snake. Aerials could do with a little more shield stun, given Snake literally has no good options on shield (all of them have frame disadvantage iirc), which of course forces his defensive playstyle.

Snake reminds me of spacies; hard to use, but when you get good with them, you're really good with them.

 

[cisyphus]

Here's a spreadsheet I'm putting together of all of Snake's KO %'s as well, for anyone that's curious. These are all assuming no DI on FD. The Fair %'s are tested by hitting third CPU to the left from their spawn point in training mode. I've only included these moves because they are the most potent and have the most plausible setups (with Fair being your tranq follow up in certain matchups at certain percents). Considering expanding to include every stage, but really the precision isn't that necessary. Chain grabs require some cooperation from another person, so those are all gonna wait; I've only marked those I've found to be implausible to get a regrab (but includes a single regrab, which isn't really a "chain grab" but I digress).

 

[Mischief]

I don't know frames that well. The PM blogpost just said everyone will get a 2 frame dacus. What is snakes current frame window for dacus?

 

[FlashingFire]

2 frames. The 3.5 update won't change the input window for Snake's DACUS, but Z won't cut that window down by 1 frame anymore.

 

[Mischief]

Sooo, it will be easier then? Damn I've been hitting a 1 frame z dacus window, I'm impressed with my self now.

 

[cisyphus]

So I can finally have a footstool button instead of using X to Dacus!?

 

[Cuon Alpinus]

Was it just Z that cut the window down, or does any Grab-bound button cause the window to get tighter?
I ask because my friend liked using L to DACUS

 

[FlashingFire]

Edit: re-read your question, and yes, any button bound to Grab will have that effect. This is because Grab is actually Shield + Attack when set to a single button.

 

[batistabus]

There's a bit of fat trimming I'd like to see done to Snake, but something I've been considering recently is his mine/down-smash. I don't have any suggested changes for the properties of the move, but rather an aesthetic suggestion (that would impact game-play more than a typical aesthetic suggestion).

It is almost always impossible to see during game-play. Players are forced to memorize the general location of something that could be very damaging...and I feel like that's pretty weird. This is not a skill that you need to have when fighting any other character in the game. Comboing/throwing your opponent into a mine is great and satisfying, but having them forget the location and randomly run into it is not for either player. Players fighting Snake already have more to keep an eye out for than when fighting almost any other character, and I feel like this advantage is excessive, out of place, and unnecessary.

I suggest adding some sort of noticeable visual indicator for the location of the mine. I suggest a small beam of light radiating from the center. This light wouldn't indicate the detonation hitbox of the mine, but it would be enough so that players wouldn't just blindly walk over it.

 

[FlashingFire]

If you can see Snake, you can see when and where he places his mines. Honestly, I don't find them hard to keep track of at all. Opponents can even use Snake's mines to their own advantage via comboing or pressuring Snake closer to them.

 

[Mischief]

I think a slightly more visible mine is fair, you should be pressuring people into mines, not having them randomly fall into them. Of course your opponent should keep track of them, but it's a minor change, and not that drastic of one.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Personally I would like the up throw chain grab, but that's just a personal preference on where I want the game to go (less chain grabs and grab->kill). So only if everyone does except for certain rare cases. Obviously he should be buffed in other areas.

On another note, I really like the idea of grenades exploding on impact.

 

[cisyphus]

Damn near nobody I've ever played has been unable to remember where my mine is, and I've had multiple people combo me into my own mines. That's certainly not any problem that needs to be addressed whatsoever. It's part of the matchup; deal with it instead of being lazy and asking for an easy out

 

[Mischief]

The entire game is in a mode of overhaul. Clearly no one is dealing with things and almost everything is being changed. Changing around moves to make the game have more depth or to buff/nerf elements of a character doesn't mean people are being "lazy," it means that they think the game would be improved if certain things were designed differently.

 

[cisyphus]

Except there's no improvement from this suggestion outside of taking some slack off of the opponent. Snake's design is all about subtly and the mine fits perfectly. It rewards conscious play and punishes inattentiveness on both players' parts. I mean, the mine animation is super long, has a distinct sound effect, and forces Snake to move away from it directly afterward; if none of those things signals to you where the mine is, you're just a bad player. You can even watch how the Snake moves and divine where the mine is based on that, since the mine's greatest utility is as a zoning tool. Given that you can actually see the mine if you're looking for it (granted some stages are much harder than others), it's not really that hard. Most characters with projectiles can just spam them to detonate them as well. There are plenty of overpowered elements in Project M; Snake's mines just aren't one of them.

 

[Mischief]

You're equating good design with how powerful a move is. There are plenty of things in pm that are not overpowered but also bad design. I'm not too opinionated on this whole mine thing, either way I think it will be fine, but I do think snake will get very slightly nerfed (as will most of the cast) and I don't think the mine is sacrosanct in this. Out of all the things that they could change about snake (autocombo up throw, damage and knock back of grenades, huge hit box on fair, slow but long distance recovery) a change to the mine game is probably the least of our worries. I don't think snake is op at all, but the general consensus from the development team is to shorten recoveries, nerf projectiles and limit "auto combos," and snake can be said to be guilty of all of this. Changes are coming, and I don't mind throwing my opponent a bone in a couple of the weird areas of snake provided their characters also become sensible.

I think a good compromise is a blinking flash for the first second or two of it getting laid down, it's not easily visible but it's easy to see someone lay it down. Another option is give down smash more lag, and just make mine placement a tad riskier while scraping the visibility idea.

 

[cisyphus]

No, I'm correlating the power of a move to this notion of "balancing the game," which certainly is a proponent of good design, but you're reducing that complexity: the power of a move within the game does impact game at large. I suppose you still attained my meaning: there are more pressing concerns within Snake's gameplay that can be "improved" before the mine is even considered. A blinking light for a few seconds would be acceptable, but again, it just makes the game easier for the sake of making it easier whereas extending the already laggy move actively discourages the use of Snake's best zoning tool when one considers how easily it gets destroyed: that option tears down his gameplay to an unreasonable degree. There's no need to fix the mine because it's not broken.

As for my sense of the incoming 3.5:
I can frankly see the trajectory of up throw changed and the cypher duration lowered ever so slightly. The up throw works on 80% of the cast to some degree, and it works on fast-fallers for enormous ranges (Fox can take 50% from a perfect chain), which then just leads into a U-air chain). It's a massive component, but it's difficult to modify it without losing the option of u-throw -> C4 stick. Scaling the knockback seems the reasonable option: one can still stick off of low percent grabs, but ideally can't chaingrab for nearly as long. Modifying the angle, though, seems fantastic: it makes the regrab far more precise (rewarding knowledge of the character and matchup) and maintains the choice of sticking instead (as the hitboxes are nearly identical). This is a change I'd encourage, certainly. Cypher, meanwhile, seems reasonable to change, but it probably will anyway. It's a highly punishable recovery (unlike things like Diddy's rocket barrels, for example) which therefore encourages dynamic ledge play and edgeguarding (which is what PMBR wants). If it does change, it only changes the fact that C4 recoveries will be more critical overall. Big deal. I'll accept whatever they do to Cypher's aerial properties.

The rest? not nearly as necessary. Snake's grenades are not overpowered, given the long startup and cooldown of them: startup because they're severely limited without wavedash out of shield and require almost immediate use (unlike Diddy's bananas, which surely is the main target here) and cooldown given you can only have one at a time (meaning it has to explode before you pull another—also distinct from the bananas—which is balanced given they don't explode on contact). That lack of contact explosion means that if the Snake mistimes the grenade, you gain the opportunity to react to it bouncing off of you and shield it—something that doesn't happen with any other projectile. They're also relatively safe to shield, given Snake's only real approaches to follow up (because he has to shield the grenade, or roll in? hah) are either dash attack, DACUS, or an aerial, all of which get shield grabbed because Snake's moves are always unsafe on block. Fair meanwhile is pretty tame and doesn't fit into any of the categories you've cited, so I'm not sure why it'd be touched..? It's slow and requires a combo to land reliably because of that; KOing is tricky without the proper sweetspot (the foot hitbox is 20% better at KOing given the angle is sends grounded foes at). If they reduce the size of the hitbox, they surely should change the speed of the move as well—in other words, there's no reason to try to balance it.

 

[batistabus]

If you can see Snake, you can see when and where he places his mines.

I'm not talking about players not noticing Snake placing a mine, I'm talking about having trouble keeping track of it afterwards.

Opponents can even use Snake's mines to their own advantage via comboing or pressuring Snake closer to them.

This would be possible with a better visual indicator.

Damn near nobody I've ever played has been unable to remember where my mine is

I can't tell you how many times I've heard a commentator, who is doing nothing but paying complete attention to the match, forget the position of a mine or be unsure if it is still active. And I've seen too many top players who end up running right over one.

The point is that people forget where they are or are unable to tell if they're still on the field. This isn't a reflection of skill, it isn't a reflection of adapting, and it's incredibly unsatisfying when it happens. You technically ARE able to see them on the field, they're just very difficult to see on most setups, which is just inconsistent. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with making them slightly more visible, unless they just enjoy the cheese factor.

 

[cisyphus]

we're telling you all of this as people that've played Snake for a long time against a large collection of opponents, y'know. We're not just making it all up.

 

[Mischief]

And you don't think this can make you bias? I hear squirtel players go on for pages justifying their side b cheese, because in their mind it's just "the character" and rather than accepting an aspect about that character is ridiculous they want everything to revolve around them so they don't need to change at all.

Cheese is cheese and it should be grated

Also comparing anyone's moves to diddys when talking about balance is just dumb.

 

[FlashingFire]

At this point we don't have much longer to wait. Come Friday, we'll be able to talk about how Snake actually is in 3.5 rather than how we think he should be.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

C4 now kills at 50% universally, but can be transferred via contact.

DO YOU HAVE THE GUTS

 

[cisyphus]

Definitely. I still pull the trigger.

 

[lami]

Only if I get to stick myself first.

 

[Espi]

What has changed for snake?

 

[lami]

apparently mines persist through death.

 

[FlashingFire]

That's been up there for a while now. I think it's faulty information that the PMDT forgot to change when they updated the characters page on their website. Mistakes happen.

 

[cisyphus]

So now officially:

Up-tilt got fixed I guess where it had random hitbox glitches? I never noticed personally, but aight cool. It's also not invulnerable on arm, which I didn't even know about to begin with.

Crawl tilt has more hitlag, but can also be smash DI'd much more easily. A fair thing, I think.

F-Smash is more easy to smash DI which might finally break my bad habit of using F-Smash.

The mine of down smash is now placed higher off the ground for added visibility (here's where I'm eating my words). A far better change than the suggestions here, though.

Fair doesn't always spike now—with the knee meteoring, does this mean it'll act like Falcon's dair and pop grounded opponents up? It also has a lower knockback growth, but I've no clue how that affects anything. Probably harder to KO. So it goes.

They buffed back air a bit—praise. It's easier to auto-cancel and has a strong (tipper?) hitbox.

Up air is slightly nerfed with a shorter vertical hitbox, which probably affects some up-throw up-air combo potential.

Dair becomes much more SDI-able, and the final hit has a third the hitlag—so no more d-air -> up-tilting Foxes at 80%

Grabs (and this is my favorite part) are changed a lot: standing grab is even higher now, but this is compensated with a down-angle dash grab. I can see this meaning Snake's boost grab will be far more prominent, much to my pleasure.

Tranq can now fire just before landing.

Cypher has lost its ground invincibility, so get ready to buffer rolls I guess. Yay. It sounds as though it'll be easier to sweetspot, though. This "Ability to airdodge after an aerial has been removed" confuses me a little—is it just aerials, or air dodge in general? C4 -> air dodge is outstanding recovery mixup right now so I hope it's the former. The decay in height after hit confuses me too, but I assume they mean it'll get shorter the more Snake is hit out of it. It does less damage as well, but surely it'll still be a solid coverage option, it just won't be the catch-all for regaining neutral.

C4 does 1% less damage, has a 90 degree (straight up) knockback with reduced growth to compensate. That's fantastic changes because of the unintuitive angle it sent at previously that required wonky DI in some situations. It never falls off of an opponent (pitch your tents, boys) until your stock is lost, Grounded sticks are slower while aerial sticks are faster, which means SH stick is even better now, and Cypher -> self-c4 is waaaaaay easier (probably why the cypher has the decay now). Detonations, fake and real, have more endlag as well, and c4 landing lag is higher too WD mitigates this I'm sure).

That's everything the patch notes tell. Once my download finishes I'll be able to explore more.

 

[cisyphus]

So now officially:

Up-tilt got fixed I guess where it had random hitbox glitches? I never noticed personally, but aight cool. It's also not invulnerable on arm, which I didn't even know about to begin with.

Crawl tilt has more hitlag, but can also be smash DI'd much more easily. A fair thing, I think.

F-Smash is more easy to smash DI which might finally break my bad habit of using F-Smash.

The mine of down smash is now placed higher off the ground for added visibility (here's where I'm eating my words). A far better change than the suggestions here, though. Edit: doesn't seem that much more visible lol

Fair doesn't always spike now—with the knee meteoring, does this mean it'll act like Falcon's dair and pop grounded opponents up? It also has a lower knockback growth, but I've no clue how that affects anything. Probably harder to KO. So it goes. Edit: a quick test shows that it will still KO Lucas at the predicted percentage.

They buffed back air a bit—praise. It's easier to auto-cancel and has a strong (tipper?) hitbox.

Up air is slightly nerfed with a shorter vertical hitbox, which probably affects some up-throw up-air combo potential.

Dair becomes much more SDI-able, and the final hit has a third the hitlag—so no more d-air -> up-tilting Foxes at 80% Edit: it's not so dramatic. You just can't do this at 130% anymore.

Grabs (and this is my favorite part) are changed a lot: standing grab is even higher now, but this is compensated with a down-angle dash grab. I can see this meaning Snake's boost grab will be far more prominent, much to my pleasure.
Characters that can crouch under the standing grab:
Snake
Kirby
Jigglypuff
Mr. Game & Watch
Squirtle
Sheik

This is from most to least difficult to dash grab, as well. Snake's crouch is so low guys. It's ridiculous.

Tranq can now fire just before landing.

Cypher has lost its ground invincibility, so get ready to buffer rolls I guess. Yay. It sounds as though it'll be easier to sweetspot, though. This "Ability to airdodge after an aerial has been removed" confuses me a little—is it just aerials, or air dodge in general? C4 -> air dodge is outstanding recovery mixup right now so I hope it's the former. The decay in height after hit confuses me too, but I assume they mean it'll get shorter the more Snake is hit out of it. It does less damage as well, but surely it'll still be a solid coverage option, it just won't be the catch-all for regaining neutral. It's now impossible to air dodge out of cypher regardless of what moves were used after it. However, getting damaged will reset this and allow you full mobility (self-C4).

C4 does 1% less damage, has a 90 degree (straight up) knockback with reduced growth to compensate. That's fantastic changes because of the unintuitive angle it sent at previously that required wonky DI in some situations. It never falls off of an opponent (pitch your tents, boys) until your stock is lost, Grounded sticks are slower while aerial sticks are faster, which means SH stick is even better now, and Cypher -> self-c4 is waaaaaay easier (probably why the cypher has the decay now). Detonations, fake and real, have more endlag as well, and c4 landing lag is higher too WD mitigates this I'm sure). This changes the move's KO potential drastically: Lucas used to get KO'd at 105% on FD with no DI; Lucas now gets KO'd at 121% with no DI.

That's everything the patch notes tell. Once my download finishes I'll be able to explore more.

 

[CrimsonSun]

I'm not sure how I feel about these changes. Played around with him for a bit and he seems fine except the detonation animations (fake and real) feel weird with the added IASA frames. It feels too slowed down or maybe it's the animation that bothers me. Idk. I'm tired and I will play more later.

 

[BND]

90% of my recoveries used both cypher and airdodge (and my extended recovery of preference at higher percentages was to cypher ->pull out grenade -> roll grenade-> airdodge 45 degrees down, which is just suicide if muscle memoried out), so personally I was fairly salty about the no-airdodge-after-grenade. Oh well.

That aside, has the sticky timing changed midair? I ended up missing most of my sticky conversions that probably would have worked in 3.0...

Nobody's SDI'ed out of my down aerials yet, but I'm sure they'll be able to soon enough.

(There's definitely an error/change (?) in terms of SFX while sticking midair, though; the "There!" comes out when it's fairly obvious I'm no longer in sticky range. Feels a bit disorienting, but nothing major, I suppose.)

All in all, I suppose Snake could've been hit harder with the nerf hammer, but still a bit disappointed as to which aspects of his gameplay were nerfed. I'll probably get over it in a few months.

EDIT: I knew I missed something. RIP forward smash SFX

 

[Professor Pro]

90% of my recoveries used both cypher and airdodge (and my extended recovery of preference at higher percentages was to cypher ->pull out grenade -> roll grenade-> airdodge 45 degrees down, which is just suicide if muscle memoried out), so personally I was fairly salty about the no-airdodge-after-grenade. Oh well.

That aside, has the sticky timing changed midair? I ended up missing most of my sticky conversions that probably would have worked in 3.0...

Nobody's SDI'ed out of my down aerials yet, but I'm sure they'll be able to soon enough.

(There's definitely an error/change (?) in terms of SFX while sticking midair, though; the "There!" comes out when it's fairly obvious I'm no longer in sticky range. Feels a bit disorienting, but nothing major, I suppose.)

All in all, I suppose Snake could've been hit harder with the nerf hammer, but still a bit disappointed as to which aspects of his gameplay were nerfed. I'll probably get over it in a few months.

The stick timing mid-air has not changed at all and neither has his throws into it, so if you're feeling a change it's definitely placebo.
Lag time has changed in a good few areas for C4 but the stick is not one of them.

 

[cisyphus]

that grenade bit actually worked? Ew. C4ing yourself out of Cypher feels a lot easier, and if you're awesome at stage techs, it's the best option too. Definitely recommend doing that, especially now that C4 does less damage and doesn't required reversal to DI it correctly. I've actually taken tap jump off on my controls (for now) to force myself to not depend on UpB out of shield, too. It's a task, but defeating the bad habits that hinged on Snake's most broken aspects is essential here. More grenades, more mines, more C4 setups, and WAY MORE DACUS BECAUSE IT'S AWESOME AND EASY AS HELL TO DO WITH Z NOW.

 

[BND]

that grenade bit actually worked? Ew. C4ing yourself out of Cypher feels a lot easier, and if you're awesome at stage techs, it's the best option too.

C4 recovery is definitely a lot easier, but it was more of a last resort recovery option in the event that my C4 was on someone (Team rounds especially come to mind; I team with a kirby and most of my stickies go on him, so blowing it up and falling halfway down Final Destination before I can throw down another C4 definitely isn't the best option, not to mention that if said teammate was in a state where shielding wasn't possible, it would likely kill him), and a way to optimize the damage taken (12% vs 18%) as well as the distance fallen while pulling out a grenade (due to the airdodge stall). My other friend also had a knack for hitting me after stage techs (marth why), so there's that, since he'd have to commit fairly hard in order to edgeguard me far away from the stage if I used a grenade.

Basically, not necessary overall, but if your opponent developed any sort of counterplay to stageteching shenanigans and your C4 is needed elsewhere, might as well do it.

 

[BND]

...Another change I've noticed about 3.5: Up throw got its knockback changed (probably increased base knockback and lower scaling, though that's just a guess) so that there are no longer any guaranteed followups on Fox/Falco. In 3.0 you had a more or less guaranteed followup on both :Up-throw->backwards ftilt->jab reset->tranq worked fairly often at 0% (and slightly higher percentages as well for Falco, since upthrow restands and most players would try to block the ftilt, except the landing lag made it unblockable if you did it right and presumably the opponent didn't DI properly, resulting in an untechable ftilt), for reference. In exchange, you can start chaingrabs at slightly earlier percentages (Roughly 20%), though there doesn't seem to be any more guaranteed 0-death sticky setup that you can get without giving up your chaingrab at some point.

Also, anyone know what's wrong with the sticky hitbox in debug mode? (The hitbox moves to random places at times on a successful stick). Not particularly important since it presumably doesn't affect gameplay, though it'd be nice to know.

 

[cisyphus]

That's simply not true. The u-throw is unchanged.

 

[BND]

That's simply not true. The u-throw is unchanged.

Got any explanation of why uthrow restands at 0% on spaces in 3.0 and forces a tumble in 3.5 then? The changelist says nothing about Fox and Falco's weight changing, so their knockback should be the same.

(Also, tertiary note, but judging from what I remember from my gameplay today it seems that mines still blow up upon death; bleh.)

 

[cisyphus]

If you're talking getting regrabs at 0% on spacies it was never possible. I've spent lots of time figuring those grab follow ups in particular and detect no difference whatsoever with the nuances of it. You're talking about a "more or less guaranteed followup" that "worked fairly often" so it's entirely possible that your opponent is just knowledgeable about how to escape it. It frankly sounds jank as hell.

For real, you can dair in the exact situation you described and either:
Link all four hits for a regrab into chain grab (10% from the throw, 16% from dair, 9-10% from throw = 36% for the regrab)
Force them into shield, which you can stick or regrab
SHFFL it into a stick or regrab outright

You can probably nair as well and have basically the same options. My point is that there are still followups, you're just using a bad one. It's the same situation though where they have a few frames where they can get out of it with a shine. Most of Snake's low-percent grab combos are not true combos and that's the big problem he has vs. Spacies and why you need to rack up damage with DACUS and mines and grenades first.

Prof makes great use of these, for example, but every Fox player that talks to me about Prof talks about how fraudulent his grab combos are and they're right for the reason that they're not combos; they're abuses of ignorance to Snake.

 

[BND]

If you're talking getting regrabs at 0% on spacies it was never possible. I've spent lots of time figuring those grab follow ups in particular and detect no difference whatsoever with the nuances of it. You're talking about a "more or less guaranteed followup" that "worked fairly often" so it's entirely possible that your opponent is just knowledgeable about how to escape it. It frankly sounds jank as hell.

For real, you can dair in the exact situation you described and either:
Link all four hits for a regrab into chain grab (10% from the throw, 16% from dair, 9-10% from throw = 36% for the regrab)
Force them into shield, which you can stick or regrab
SHFFL it into a stick or regrab outright

You can probably nair as well and have basically the same options. My point is that there are still followups, you're just using a bad one. It's the same situation though where they have a few frames where they can get out of it with a shine. Most of Snake's low-percent grab combos are not true combos and that's the big problem he has vs. Spacies and why you need to rack up damage with DACUS and mines and grenades first.

Prof makes great use of these, for example, but every Fox player that talks to me about Prof talks about how fraudulent his grab combos are and they're right for the reason that they're not combos; they're abuses of ignorance to Snake.

I won't argue with the conclusion that my Snake is jank, as my playstyle is definitely more jank than most, but I've spent a sizable amount of time testing too, and it definitely worked (100% of the time against foxes when my ftilt was fast enough, actually). The only way to escape it was to guess the snake's next followup: DI so that the ftilt missed (since you had to do it pretty fast or it would be shielded), shield (and give up your opportunity to tech), or to forgo shielding and tech after the ftilt came out, opening up many other options. In theory the fox could spam jab or shine, but regardless the snake doing this would have frame advantage. Fortunately, nobody that I played figured out it was optimal to eat the next ftilt and tech when possible.

There might be the option to crouch cancel the ftilt and tech away, but I haven't tested for this. It could possibly explain http://smashboards.com/threads/ftilt-1st-hit-trajectories-standard-flinching.370174/.

tl;dr if the opponent didn't instinctively hold shield, this wouldn't work at all, but nobody thought to do that before the up throw vs fox nerf, apparently. It also probably helped that the jank combo wasn't actually posted anywhere on Smashboards.

In any case, it's not a regrab: it's an unblockable ftilt -> jab reset that leads into whatever, provided your opponent doesn't mash out fast enough (Guaranteed stick. From there, it's either a half-guaranteed grab, or if you cheated and looked at your opponent's controller to see if they were mashing the shield buttons or understood their mashing habits, probably another ftilt->jab reset->tranq-> maybe mineplant -> chaingrab -> death). You'd need to get a pretty fast dair in order for it to be faster than a grab, and I don't know if the frame data supports a grab vs a shine. Nair is definitely suboptimal in this case, since dair opens up tech chases and the aforementioned jank combo opens up everything.

(I just found out recently that M2K fell victim to this too; apparently this has been known for some time, as evidenced by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXRTnCCzmDI#t=425.)

Regardless, my 0-death success rates on fox (and falco, actually) were fairly high if I got a grab at 0%, so I'm fairly sure this works.

tl;dr2 Pretty sure Fox's + Falco's weight changed (less likely), or somehow up throw's knockback changed enough so that it forces knockdown.

 

[Jolteon]

Got any explanation of why uthrow restands at 0% on spaces in 3.0 and forces a tumble in 3.5 then? The changelist says nothing about Fox and Falco's weight changing, so their knockback should be the same.

(Also, tertiary note, but judging from what I remember from my gameplay today it seems that mines still blow up upon death; bleh.)

Prior to 3.5 we were unable to emulate Melee's behaviour where most u/d-throws forced tumble regardless of KB taken, this is now no longer the case.