Snake fixes (#2)

[SuSa]

So Sheik can jab us eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upk2A42cCRQ

This may mean we can get Fox as well. Just really, really frame perfect.

When I get my Brawl working I'll retest all our grab releases frame-by-frame [including MK]


We need to figure out how to do this, considering our bair is usually pretty laggy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paIO9BrxKsc&feature=related


Oh yeah.... **** Diddy Kong too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGGaGfJl72A

So impractical, but still....interesting...


We still need to figure out the naritake-like step **** that's going on in this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M

I'm assuming it's related to the light-press-down [very precise btw] and then any move you want.... and I'm also assuming it can be used by any character. May prove useful from time to time.

Also these are the grenade tactics I'm going to be testing on how to use grenades to control the field better along with c4+mine setups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ar2M4iiB-g#t=00m10s

Yea, a lot of it's review...... but this is a bit of a reminder for me, and IIRC we came to the conclusion Sheik could jab us on regrab.. which means my buffering suuucckkksss...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

-this. I cannot see the videos right now. It is too darn slow to load.

 

[SuSa]

Keep this next one secret... apparently any character with an item (I'm assuming, although only Link was shown) can recieve a 0 lag landing... which means people can use our own grenades to do this.. but this also means we can use our own grenades. (without having to pull one in air)

We can also use diddy kong's bananas I presume.... and any other one (stating obvious)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZSpnfdV46Q&feature=related

 

[etecoon]

diddy thing is old and mad impractical, the no lag item throw is definitely something I'm going to be using though

and I thought we had confirmed grab release on sheik like forever ago

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Fun fact about snakes trying to land on the mine with nades, set it off right before he lands, snake gets ***** (h).

The naritake-like step thing seems to be only useful on fall through platforms, which kinda reduces its usefulness on most if not all legal stages.

Also, perhaps it would benefit you to check out some dead threads within the past year, stuff has being tried like nade'ing out of nado, crouching under nado, bair pickup nades, etc.

And I don't think I'll be on smashboards as much anymore, 3rd year in college is busy as hell, gotta do hella work starting tommorow.

 

[SuSa]

I loooove my thread of my 55 threads... makes finding my data so much easier. <_<

DACUS (Buffered only, needs to be perfect), Boost Grab (1-2 frame window <3 fun fun?)

Problem: We don't need to boost grab, making this infinitely easier - with the same frame window. Meaning you'll likely **** up less.

But I guess you were right.

But we still didn't confirm MK iirc, and the Diddy thing is impractical but I figured I'd post it for the lulz.

And so that they don't notice my 2nd post

EDIT:
@Yume
That's why throwing the grenade at opponent and landing on the mine is so much better. You don't need to be so obvious that you're going to land on the mine by holding a grenade the whole time your fighting. Trust me, I know Haze is at least smart enough to walk into my mine (he's done it vs me in tourney)

Naritake step only works on platforms. So you know, Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, Delfino, RAINBOW CRUISE (my fav stageeeeee), Brinstar... what about reduces usefulness? [ps: Real naritake can be done on ground but is stupid impossible to do a utilt out of =| I did it 2 times in like 10000 tries...]

I don't care about nado, and maybe I'll do research into grenade placements but my stuff is super in depth, changes on a scenario, and some of it's not even too practical in all but the rarest situations.... =P

awww...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I actually have a practical application for that double jump cancel with bair. If snake is never actually touching the ground while doing this, then he should be able to jump before he hits a mine.

Mine on stage, then run off stage into a bair canceling into that double jump into something else. Even if not, running off stage and covering your return with Bair that will cancel into a double jump whatever seems like a great idea.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Somehow I think the mine will be set off, worth testing.

 

[SuSa]

I'm more worried about how we have to do the bair to avoid lag, and if it's possible out of full-hop to second jump off of BF's platform. Full-hop bair into double jump to avoid lag into a possible B-reverse nade or something?

Also from what I've been told, platform cancelling doesn't rely on an aerial.. it's something about holding down while jumping to a platform and releasing it? If this is true can we platform cancel utilt?


MID-POST EDIT:
Nevermind, down-cstick.... =\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqVwizKQjyA

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I never thought that platform cancels would actually be useful for us. I'll probably screw around with some of this stuff after work today. Sounds interesting.

 

[Sinz]

Umm Susa. we already have video guides on all of those from Underload.

 

[clowsui]

I'm more worried about how we have to do the bair to avoid lag, and if it's possible out of full-hop to second jump off of BF's platform. Full-hop bair into double jump to avoid lag into a possible B-reverse nade or something?

Also from what I've been told, platform cancelling doesn't rely on an aerial.. it's something about holding down while jumping to a platform and releasing it? If this is true can we platform cancel utilt?


MID-POST EDIT:
Nevermind, down-cstick.... =\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqVwizKQjyA

This is false. If you hold down and you perform an aerial as you pass through the platform you will platform cancel. Easiest to perform with Marth's forward air.

 

[SuSa]

Umm Susa. we already have video guides on all of those from Underload.

Uhm.... oh really now? I searched for hours on Youtube to find some of these. Checking all the Japanese tech youtube users I knew + searching for English vids.

This is false. If you hold down and you perform an aerial as you pass through the platform you will platform cancel. Easiest to perform with Marth's forward air.

Notice my in-post edit.

 

[napZzz]

susa stil tryin to catch up on the metagame...

I wanna relook into grab releases still

 

[etecoon]

I think we should look more into air releases on characters that we DON'T force air break on, yes they can avoid it by not mashing carelessly but this will also force them to mash slower and take more pummels, pick your poison : )

 

[SuSa]

I also want to check more characters out on Rainbow Cruise than just MK... <_<

Alas.. I can't test T_T

EDIT:

lol Souther... 2 fsmash KO's vs a MK in 1 round. XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZWfiJUFI_k&feature=related

And this is why I love our pivot grab:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzxrYvXWBI#t=01m05s

Also notice how Souther usually B-reverses just as he leaves the bubble.

EDIT:
I also notice Japanese snakes use OoS dash attack/DACUS relatively often...

 

[napZzz]

they probably do it to create more distance between themselves and the other person

put a list of **** up and i'll try to test for you if you'd like

 

[Sinz]

I also want to check more characters out on Rainbow Cruise than just MK... <_<

Alas.. I can't test T_T

EDIT:

lol Souther... 2 fsmash KO's vs a MK in 1 round. XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZWfiJUFI_k&feature=related

And this is why I love our pivot grab:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzxrYvXWBI#t=01m05s

Also notice how Souther usually B-reverses just as he leaves the bubble.

EDIT:
I also notice Japanese snakes use OoS dash attack/DACUS relatively often...

http://www.youtube.com/user/Underload6

 

[SuSa]

I see like.... one of them... which is the "velox drop"..

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think we should look more into air releases on characters that we DON'T force air break on, yes they can avoid it by not mashing carelessly but this will also force them to mash slower and take more pummels, pick your poison

Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but we force air releases on EVERYONE. Nothing they do can stop that. The only way they get ground released is a break during the middle of a pummel.

I wanna relook into grab releases still

I am not sure what more there is to look into. I basically looked into the entire list of people we could remotely even do stuff too, then me and SuSa did some rought wifi testing of various things that we thought would work. The list is not perfect because it was never tested offline.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236239

I see like.... one of them... which is the "velox drop"..

I never understood on how such a useless, but admittedly pretty interesting thing came to be called that.

 

[SuSa]

I thought we didn't force an air release on like 2 chars? I forget... are we really the tallest char? O_o.... [ps; can't air release ourselves]

Also, velox drop is useful for stage control and to avoid punishment at times. (drop the nade, bair).

I want to look more into it and specifically find moments to create traps and FORCE the stage control aspect of it. It was probably named after you because [although we saw it in a Japanese vid] you discovered how it was performed. =P

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think we have a few more frame perfect Boost grab related GRs that we can test. Or we could at least play around on Cruise a little more since we know we can GR MK like Wario. I think there's a lot of small things that we Snakes havent bothered to delve into.[


EDIT: Isn't Ganon taller than us?

 

[Underload]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=265493

 

[Yumewomiteru]

About platform cancel, snake can't do it with dair or he'll lag, same with down-b. But if you do it with shield he will not lag, and you could poss buffer into a grab.

 

[SuSa]

I was told you can platform cancel with a shield as well... not sure how that works though.

If we can do that, that's a HUGE step up in my opinion....

@Underload
Thanks for fixing the title, and you can update+bump that post I guess? =P

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Yes we can do it, we have to be somewhat holding down then press shield, you can also buffer a platform drop from it, but the timing is ******** and i was never able to get it once.

 

[Underload]

Well, I decided to mess around with the bair thing for a little while.

There's only one point where you can really cancel the bair into a jump. It's when Snake's legs are at a 55-65 degree angle in the 'cooldown' stage of the move. Just a hair more of time and the move is over anyway.

__Snake's body when laid out during bair__
|--\
|---\
|----\
|-----\
|------\
|-------\
|--------\

That angle, more or less.

Gonna go play around with the stuff happening in the 5th video. It's all interesting and ****. If I can get a better definition of the shield platform cancel, I'll see if I can manage to get that to work.

 

[SuSa]

IIRC SJR abuses the very last frame of something. <_<' Stupidly hard to time the first time, but after that it's usually all buffering or it's just really good timing. XD


Shield Platform Cancel... uhm.. lightly hold down, hope through a platform and as you do press shield. (This is me guessing, because that's how it's done with aerials except shield is replaced by an aerial)

 

[Underload]

Shield platform cancel is stupidly easy to do, especially if you already have the feel for the dair platform cancel.

Basically, when you feel that Snake's shins / ankles are in / going through the platform, hold down and air dodge. Really **** useful. Gonna try buffering tilts and nades out of it now.

SJR doesn't feel that useful for me. I might develop a habit of mashing X while doing a bair just in case I land at the correct angle, but really, a lot of the situations where SJR can be used stem from awkwardly used bairs.

edit: btw, we know the inputs for this, right?

 

[SuSa]

Yea, we know the inputs for that.

B --> Quick press down --> Shield
[IIRC, this is from memory.. if I had the game I'd do it with muscle memory =\ ]

SJR is awkwardly used/timed bairs it seems, but can you see if you can do a rising/timed full hop bair to SJR off a platform on battlefield/smashville? That's my idea of a use for it. (Instead of SH bair with lag, FH bair with SJR to negate the lag if possible)

Also mind recording the shield platform cancel once you practice it more and can show it off? =P

 

[Underload]

Rising FH bair doesn't need SJR. You can jump a few centimeters above the platform anyway. I'm sure if you drop through the platform, jump at the right time, and THEN bair you could use the SJR, but why the hell would you do that?

If you want to time a bair during your FH's ascent, you can, but you have such a small window (right before the apex of your jump) to do it, it's hardly worth it. Anything before that point with end before you hit the platform, and anything after will have you hit the platform and have bair's landing lag.

 

[SuSa]

I'll practice the height to use it in case it ever comes up. (EG: Falling bair and it just happens to be around that height) but otherwise I see your point now. haha...

Platform cancel though.... is it really that easy? oo

 

[Underload]

Yeah, I'm doing it pretty consistently now. Super easy to do stuff like:

- Immediately fall through the platform after platform canceling (you have your 2nd jump when you do this, so it leads to **** like uair and bair. Mad height on that ****, dawg diggity.)
- Utilt after your shield drops (failure to perform correctly results in an usmash OoS)
- Ftilt after your shield drops (failure to perform correctly results in you buffering a roll)
- Fsmash after your shield drops (LOLOLOLOL)
- Hold shield do cool stuff OoS (JC throw, par example)

 

[SuSa]

Why drop through the platform? Why not just uair OoS at that point?

Cool, still cool.
Awesome, that kinda sucks.
LOL
JC throw?

 

[Underload]

Jump cancel throw. Like glide tossing, except useful for Snake. It was just a random example.

Also, you DO remember we have the slowest startup for a jump in the game, right? Trust me, I've tried both, and the drop through is sooo much faster.

 

[Attila_]

problem with snake's platform cancel is that he almost always needs to do it out of a dj, which is hella slow. can work on lylat and yi, though, depending on the angles.

 

[SuSa]

Jump cancel throw. Like glide tossing, except useful for Snake. It was just a random example.

Also, you DO remember we have the slowest startup for a jump in the game, right? Trust me, I've tried both, and the drop through is sooo much faster.

For height purposes, but I do see where you're coming at. Also most people say JCT. I have issues when you take out one part of an acronym.

 

[Underload]

You can platform cancel with a grenade, but I can't get the timing. Somebody NEEDS to look into this.

Also, I can sometimes do a platform shield cancel without having my shield actually come up. Like, I'll instantly go to a crouch or something. I'll be working on this, but having other insight into the situation would take a load off my back. I just want to know the mechanics behind it. Hell, this is probably documented in Tactical or something, but iunno for sure. If it's manipulable, a slow-as-**** character (Snake) gets a virtually lagless platform cancel that goes into some boss tilts.

 

[SuSa]

Yeah.. even SL doesn't know how it works yet. <_<''

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The SL you are all talking about, it is saviorslegacy right?