Snake and Sonic: Will they return?

[Scoliosis Jones]

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A topic which has not reached a concrete solution so far in Smash Bros. 4 speculation, is whether or not Solid Snake, creation of Hideo Kojima (who is a close friend to Masahiro Sakurai), and Sonic the hedgehog (longtime rival to Mario and video game icon) will return to the next edition of Super Smash Bros. Many believe they will not, simply based on the fact that many other fighters, such as Soul Caliber, do not retain the 3rd party additions after they appear once. However, comparing Super Smash Bros., which is a crossover fighting game to the type of fighter that Soul Caliber or other games like it, isn't a fair comparison. There are a few reasons why.

Super Smash Bros. is a Nintendo Crossover game, created by a first party company. The first time 3rd party characters were included was in Brawl, which is only the 3rd edition in the series. Also, remember that according to some, that brawl was meant to be the last game in the series. Could this be why Snake and Sonic were included? I don't think anyone could know that besides the developers of the game. Also mind you, that Snake and Sonic both got in for reasons that were different from what other 3rd party additions get into other games.

Snake was included as a favor between good friends. Sonic was included because of fan clamoring and request. Soul Caliber, which has a tendency to have a guest character each game, is not likely to adhere to either of the previously stated. Soul Caliber is also made by a 3rd party company, and isn't a crossover game like Super Smash Bros. is. It's a third party game including a first party character (Link in Soul Caliber 2), or a 3rd party company including other 3rd party characters (Yoda and Darth Vader in Soul Caliber 4, and Ezio in Sould Caliber 5). Another example could be Kratos in Mortal Kombat. Kratos was essentially included as a promotion of God Of War 3 if I remember correctly. Surely he was just a guest character as Link was in Soul Caliber. Fans were not exactly speculating or requestion either of those two to be in. Again, Soul Caliber is NOT a crossover title, whereas Smash Bros. is, and a mostly first party title at that. However, there is a game that was recently released, being a direct competitior to Super Smash Bros.

Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale is Sony's version ( a cheap knockoff at that) of Super Smash Bros. It contains mostly first party characters, with FOUR 3rd party characters. The roster totals out at 20 characters initially, with other characters and stages soon to come as DLC. The roster for Super Smash Bros. is at over 30, with only TWO third party characters. Not that this particularly matters, but think of it this way. If 1/5 of the roster is third party characters, how likely is it that they will be replaced in the sequel, assuming that there is one? Also, the characters that were included (Heihachi from the Tekken series, Raiden form Metal Gear Rising, Dante from Devil May Cry, and Big Daddy from Bioshock do show a sort of relevance to Playstation. So what need is there to cut them, espcially when the fact that they are 3rd party wasn't a big deal to most fans i've read comments from? They're just excited for them to be included.

I mean sure, maybe Solid Snake doesn't have a huge connection to Nintendo, but his inclusion in Smash Bros. was appreciated and welcomed. Sonic has relevance to Nintendo's history, and he was quite obviously the most requested character for Brawl. There really is no need to remove either of these two characters from the game. They are popular choices, and surely their inclusion in a game full of first party characters wouldn't be as big a deal as some make it out to be. From what i have typed here in this blog, I really don't see Sonic and Snake as a clear cut and dry decision. I can't bring you an example of a time when 3rd party characters stayed really, but that doesn't mean it can't happen, especially when Smash Bros has become what it is now.

I like to think of the characters included in Super Smash Bros. as a series a sort of brotherhood. Once you are involved in this game, you are a fellow 'Smash Brother'. (Well besides Pichu. **** Pichu). If Sonic and Snake were warmly welcomed, then I say let our Smash Brothers stay.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Jam Stunna]

I think that the way you compare Smash Bros. to Soul Calibur is flawed. The term "first party" is often used to refer to the console makers, but when talking about characters and other IPs, it's usually more accurate to refer to the company who owns the IP as the first party.

Namco Bandai is a third party developer, but only in relation to Nintendo as a console maker. When Namco Bandai makes Soul Calibur, Namco Bandai acts as the first party. When Link was included in Soul Calibur 2, he was the third party character, a Nintendo character in a game published by Namco.

When you look at it like that, Soul Calibur is actually alot like Smash, and has positioned itself as a crossover title for much longer than Smash has, since it had its first crossover cameo five years before Smash did.

As for whether or not Snake and Sonic will be back, it'll probably just come down to an internal creative decision. There's probably not much reason for them not to come back, but then again there wasn't much reason for Mewtwo to be replaced either, they just decided they'd rather have Lucario.

 

[Feels]

I don't see any reason they wouldn't return, so far characters that have been removed are usually replaced by characters in their same universe that happen to be more relevant for the time (I.e. Roy/Ike ,Mewtwo/Lucario and Young Link/Toon Link) or were unessecary clones (Pichu/Doc)

I don't see a reason why they'd be taken out and it would only hurt the game in the long-run if they did.

 

[Yodery]

I don't see any reason they wouldn't return, so far characters that have been removed are usually replaced by characters in their same universe that happen to be more relevant for the time (I.e. Roy/Ike ,Mewtwo/Lucario and Young Link/Toon Link) or were unessecary clones (Pichu/Doc)

I don't see a reason why they'd be taken out and it would only hurt the game in the long-run if they did.

Do you like Animal Collective?

 

[Luco]

I'd say that they'll probably return. The reason being that Kojima is a friend of Sakurai and Sonic is... sonic. He's mario's rival, he's another of the biggest known gaming characters of all time. Him being cut? I see serious backlash with that, or at the very least reduced sales, because i'm reasonably sure the amount of people who are bothered by 3rd party characters in smash are smaller than those who enjoy Sonic/Snake.

EDIT: Of course, this IS only speculation. We can only make the best based on the current information.

 

[Frostwraith]

I don't see any reason they wouldn't return, so far characters that have been removed are usually replaced by characters in their same universe that happen to be more relevant for the time (I.e. Roy/Ike ,Mewtwo/Lucario and Young Link/Toon Link) or were unessecary clones (Pichu/Doc)

I don't see a reason why they'd be taken out and it would only hurt the game in the long-run if they did.

and yet another person claims Ike and Lucario as being Roy and Mewtwo's replacements... >_>

I'd say that they'll probably return. The reason being that Kojima is a friend of Sakurai and Sonic is... sonic. He's mario's rival, he's another of the biggest known gaming characters of all time. Him being cut? I see serious backlash with that, or at the very least reduced sales, because i'm reasonably sure the amount of people who are bothered by 3rd party characters in smash are smaller than those who enjoy Sonic/Snake.

EDIT: Of course, this IS only speculation. We can only make the best based on the current information.

Summed up some of my points too.

Kojima will likely want his character again for another Smash. I dunno, maybe Sakurai will ask Kojima if he still wants Snake in SSB. because what happened regarding Snake in SSB was this:

1. Kojima "begs" Sakurai to include Snake in Melee. It was rejected because Melee was already far in development.

2. When Brawl's development started, Sakurai asked Kojima if he still wanted Snake in SSB. I've heard that Kojima wanted Snake in Brawl because his child liked SSB and wanted to play as one of the father's characters.

3. Cue E3 2006 and the rest we already know.

Sonic was hugely requested and likely helped Brawl's sales. Sonic's reveal was the climax of Brawl's hype, without a doubt. I also heard that Sakurai said that most of Sonic's support came from the West, especially North America.

I would be really satisfied if they gave the feeling that Snake and Sonic would be here to stay in Smash. They're both well-known characters and I wouldn't like to see them going away, but then again, Sakurai makes the final decision.

If Snake and Sonic don't return, I won't be disappointed or anything, because it's an understandable situation (I doubt that the majority of Sonic's fanbase would agree, though... ).

 

[Gene]

Do you like Animal Collective?

I'm getting lost in your cuuuuurls.



About Snake and Sonic. It wouldn't matter to me if they came back as 3rd party reps again(I'd love to see Big Boss this time around, or maybe an alternate for Solid Snake). I liked their inclusion but I don't think they'll make it again this time around. There's no guarantee from the devs, plus I want to keep my expectations really low for 3rd parties so when _______ doesn't make the cut I won't be salty.

 

[Jam Stunna]

and yet another person claims Ike and Lucario as being Roy and Mewtwo's replacements... >_>

That's exactly what they are.

 

[Frostwraith]

Do you have any... compelling evidence proving your statement? I would like to see it...

 

[Jam Stunna]

Common sense? Both Roy and Mewtwo were replaced by updated characters from the same franchises with substantially similar playstyles.

 

[Frostwraith]

Except when Sakurai intended for both Mewtwo and Roy reappear alongside said "replacements"...

Anyhoo, this is getting off-topic... and I have stated my opinion on the OP's subject, have I not?

 

[Jam Stunna]

Where's your source for that claim?

 

[Luco]

Forbidden seven, it's thought they weren't added because of time issues. I can find a link to something like that if you want.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Where's your source for that claim?

Brawl's coding contains their names in the character files.

"dixie"
"dr_mario"
"mewtwo"
"roy"
"Pra_Mai"
"toon_sheik"
"toon_zelda"

It's worth noting that Mewtwo and Roy also have unused victory themes.

 

[Frostwraith]

Yep, pretty much what Luco and Habanero posted... can't argue with that now, can you?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think that the way you compare Smash Bros. to Soul Calibur is flawed. The term "first party" is often used to refer to the console makers, but when talking about characters and other IPs, it's usually more accurate to refer to the company who owns the IP as the first party.

Namco Bandai is a third party developer, but only in relation to Nintendo as a console maker. When Namco Bandai makes Soul Calibur, Namco Bandai acts as the first party. When Link was included in Soul Calibur 2, he was the third party character, a Nintendo character in a game published by Namco.

When you look at it like that, Soul Calibur is actually alot like Smash, and has positioned itself as a crossover title for much longer than Smash has, since it had its first crossover cameo five years before Smash did.

As for whether or not Snake and Sonic will be back, it'll probably just come down to an internal creative decision. There's probably not much reason for them not to come back, but then again there wasn't much reason for Mewtwo to be replaced either, they just decided they'd rather have Lucario.

Soul Caliber isn't anything like Super Smash Bros. Smash Bros is a NINTENDO crossover game, with characters from each of the first party IP's interacting with one another. Soul Caliber is not like this, in that it has it's own cast of characters fighting, which isn't a crossover. So in that sense, my argument isn't really all that flawed. Add that to the fact that while both fighting games, the way they are played aren't similar whatsoever, and there isn't much of a flaw there.

Being a "crossover" isn't dependent on if there is a guest character or not. It's based off of the style of the game. Smash is a crossover because there are a significant amount of series within Nintendo's universe that makes up the roster, whereas Soul caliber is made up of Soul Caliber characters, along with a GUEST character here or there. Pretty different if you ask me. Really, simply reversing the 1st/3rd party company here or there doesn't matter.

Also, to add into the other conversation, Roy and Mewtwo were not replaced. They were planned to be added along with Ike and Lucario.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

To be fair, that doesn't absolutely deny that they weren't replaced. After all, they could have been discarded in order to instead put in Lucario and Ike. Of course, there might be evidence suggesting otherwise that I should know about, but it has been far too long since I've been in the SSB4 speculation section of this place for me to recall the information spoken of there.

 

[Feels]

You realize that there is leftover data from Melee right? Having them in the data doesn't really prove anything.

 

[Luco]

You realize that there is leftover data from Melee right? Having them in the data doesn't really prove anything.

It does if there are characters who were not in melee.

Pra-Mai (Plusle and Minun?? No way to tell...)

Toon zelda and toon sheik... dixie...

 

[FlareHabanero]

Also I'd say that the fate of Sonic and Snake is very unpredictable. While it's true that both characters have sparked interest from fans and professionals, at the same time they are still considered guests that clash with the Nintendo theme, and there is always the risk of removal looming in the shadows because of that.

Not saying it will happen, but saying it won't is practically asking for disappointment.

 

[Ussi]

To be fair, that doesn't absolutely deny that they weren't replaced. After all, they could have been discarded in order to instead put in Lucario and Ike. Of course, there might be evidence suggesting otherwise that I should know about, but it has been far too long since I've been in the SSB4 speculation section of this place for me to recall the information spoken of there.

Last two characters added were Wolf and Sonic. They would have been discarded cause of those 2

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I hope Snake stays.i love that guy.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Last two characters added were Wolf and Sonic. They would have been discarded cause of those 2

That would explain why wolf isn't actually anywhere in SSE, he's just sandwiched in there as a hidden extra battle who doesn't participate in the story. Same for Toon Link :/

Then there's Sonic, who just shows up at the end, for no reason, to help you beat down Tabuu.

 

[Luco]

That would explain why wolf isn't actually anywhere in SSE, he's just sandwiched in there as a hidden extra battle who doesn't participate in the story. Same for Toon Link :/

Then there's Sonic, who just shows up at the end, for no reason, to help you beat down Tabuu.

Yeah, wolf, TL and jiggz (and maybe sonic too but at least he kinda has a vital part in the story by 'saving everybody's behinds') in the SSE are stupid and should have been put in the actual story. =/

 

[#HBC | Joker]

oh yea, forgot about jiggs. She was probably on the verge of being dropped, but they managed to get her done in time so they sandwiched her in there too.

 

[Luco]

Good thing they likely won't drop her, or for that matter any of the original 12 now.

I desperately hope not anyway.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Soul Caliber isn't anything like Super Smash Bros. Smash Bros is a NINTENDO crossover game, with characters from each of the first party IP's interacting with one another. Soul Caliber is not like this, in that it has it's own cast of characters fighting, which isn't a crossover. So in that sense, my argument isn't really all that flawed. Add that to the fact that while both fighting games, the way they are played aren't similar whatsoever, and there isn't much of a flaw there.

Being a "crossover" isn't dependent on if there is a guest character or not. It's based off of the style of the game. Smash is a crossover because there are a significant amount of series within Nintendo's universe that makes up the roster, whereas Soul caliber is made up of Soul Caliber characters, along with a GUEST character here or there. Pretty different if you ask me. Really, simply reversing the 1st/3rd party company here or there doesn't matter.

Also, to add into the other conversation, Roy and Mewtwo were not replaced. They were planned to be added along with Ike and Lucario.

If you want to focus on the differences between them because one is a crossover fighter and one isn't, that's fine (I personally don't make that distinction, but I can see why someone would). My point was mainly about the use of the terms first and third party.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Well, it would be a shame if not.

The first Metal Gear was released on a NES, was it? Or was SNES?
I know the games have been shifting to Sony these years, but eh. I still consider him the good ol bringer of a entirely new game concept for Nintendo.


And Sonic. Had his own game system, btu now he's just juggled between multiple platforms, and now on PC as well.
I like Sonic, and they had their rivalries for years.


But if they will actually re-appear, I feel that the chances are, well, mediocre.
Brawl did lose several clone characters. Some reappeared with different moves, and some just went away.

 

[Raaz Montanagro]

Remove Sonic, horrible character, bad games. Replace with Heihachi from Tekken.

Greetings from Haiti

 

[Masked Brute]

Greetings! My uncle works in Ubisoft and they've been working on a game character that has quite a possibility to end up in the new Smash, due to the game will be availeble on the Wii U and 3DS.

this is how excited I am:

 

[Raaz Montanagro]

Cooler looking than Sonic

I fully endorse it.

 

[Masked Brute]

You better, cuz I think he's going to be in there.

High potential.

 

[Shorts]

Raiden > Snake in PSBA

There's a reason.

And Sonic is probably the most hyped Smash character ever, so yeah, I figure both will return. Even if I would rather them not

 

[PureYeti]

Hmmm I see Sonic most likely but I don't know about Snake