Snake 5th on Tier List v7

[xDD-Master]

Hey Snakeyz
So there is the new tier list out now, and we are dropping 2 spots down from 3rd to 5th.
What do you think? What are your thoughts?
Is this position correct? Are we better? Or worse?

~Discuss
Akuma47

 

[etecoon]

I've been saying snake is 5th best or so since 2009

 

[xDD-Master]

Me too, since 2010 maybe, 2008/2009 I thought Snake could be 1st LOL! But since 2010 or something, I always was convinced that Snake is probably 5th, or worse.

 

[etecoon]

Actually looked it over, lol people just realizing now how ******** IC's are. Not sure if I agree with Olimar above Diddy but I have to say this is by far the most agreeable tier list they've put out to me

 

[AllyKnight]

snake finally got what he deserved after all these years. good job people!

 

[xDD-Master]

snake finally got what he deserved after all these years. good job people!

No Problem! Youre welcome!

@etecoon: same!

 

[Jrugs]

snake finally got what he deserved after all these years. good job people!

No, thank you Ally and Razer

You both proved that the smartest player in North America, and a Brawl prodigy from Texas is still not enough to hold this char to even 3rd place.

 

[Attila_]

we've all been saying this for such a long time.

but it finally happened.

at the same time, the only reason snake was high for that period of time was because of ally. and it's probably fair to say that if ally didn't start using mk, snake would probably still be top 3.

and seriously, olimar is not that good.

 

[Jrugs]

Now if only we can get snake to B-tier!

I would never ever john, ever!

 

[iKiLLOTz]

Should be lower :D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Snake is the 3rd best character. He's better than Diddy / Oli ... MK and IC are better.

 

[Jrugs]

Snake is the 3rd best character. He's better than Diddy / Oli ... MK and IC are better.

You say that the underrating of Snake continues, so I'm curious how you would have made it differently. We have hard data from tournaments (John#'s chart, which admittedly could be open to interpretation some, compared to usage), we have weighted MUs, and BBR opinion. Weighted MUs, which if we were to use a weighted MU as a tierlist like many fighters do, puts him at 7th. The results put him at 5th. So, with the data putting him no higher than 5th, and then BBR votes keeping him them instead of allowing the MUs to pull him down, I'm very curious in how you think another, objective, method could have been used.

IDK seems like 7th to me....So Im gonna say it again B-tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The MU chart is incorrect anyway as it has DDD, Marth and Olimar as disadvantaged while they're actually 0 or in Snake's favor. How anybody could possibly think Diddy is better than Snake is beyond me.

 

[Jrugs]

The MU chart is incorrect anyway as it has DDD, Marth and Olimar as disadvantaged while they're actually 0 or in Snake's favor. How anybody could possibly think Diddy is better than Snake is beyond me.

UMmmmmmmm.......?

 

[xDD-Master]

Gheb just dont post anymore pls :]

Youre totally overrating Snake, I think you dont know his extreme weaknesses at all.
Snake will drop more and more, the more people learn how to play vs. him and how to completely abuse his easily abusable weaknesses haha. You just cant win anymore with Snake like you could the last years. Welcome to 2012.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb just dont post anymore pls :]

Youre totally overrating Snake, I think you dont know his extreme weaknesses at all.
Snake will drop more and more, the more people learn how to play vs. him and how to completely abuse his easily abusable weaknesses haha. You just cant win anymore with Snake like you could the last years. Welcome to 2012.

Stfu man this BS has been said since 2009 and it has yet to turn out true. All this bull**** talk about Snake being "figured" out and yet the character is as successful as ever. Nobody's saying he doesn't have weaknesses, stop constantly insinuating stuff when you don't even know what my points are. Snake has weaknesses and strengths like any other characters but you are the one who fails to explain how all those other characters are supposed to be better than him.

 

[Attila_]

The MU chart is incorrect anyway as it has DDD, Marth and Olimar as disadvantaged while they're actually 0 or in Snake's favor. How anybody could possibly think Diddy is better than Snake is beyond me.

snake loses to oli and d3. yes.

marth... maybe.

diddy loses to mk and thats it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy loses to MK, Snake, IC, arguably vs Olimar and Wario.
Snake loses to MK, maybe Pikachu [looking at current results, idk anything about the match-up though]

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

This tier list... Its not what I was expecting. Not sure how to feel about Snake's spot. Anyway, I think all of Snake's match-ups are really in the neutral range. The biggest reason is that every character can capitalize on Snake's recovery of getting back down and wreck him. But, he can also put up a pretty good fight when not offstage. For that, Snake can solo tourneys. He sort of embodies the wreck or get wrecked thing that happens in melee. Falco wrecks on stage, but once offstage it should be is lost stock.

 

[xDD-Master]

Stfu man this BS has been said since 2009 and it has yet to turn out true. All this bull**** talk about Snake being "figured" out and yet the character is as successful as ever. Nobody's saying he doesn't have weaknesses, stop constantly insinuating stuff when you don't even know what my points are. Snake has weaknesses and strengths like any other characters but you are the one who fails to explain how all those other characters are supposed to be better than him.

Take pit, plank correctly, -1 MU.

Snake cant approach well vs Wolf, Falco, MK and Wario as well and gets destroyed in either close combat or air game or both. You could argue that he doesnt have to approach, but too bad that he also loses when playing defensive (MK and Wario need a small lead ofc., but even that isnt that hard to get vs Snake with them)

Snake is easy to bait, to read and to punish. Its just that many players suck vs. him and ALWAYS fall for his stupid traps, which you shouldnt fall for. The fact that Snake isnt the quickest of all characters doesnt help him either. He is just a gimmicky character, nothing more. You know his gimmicks, you beat him.

Tell me why you think Snake is SO good? Or what makes him better than Diddy, ICs, Olimar?

Diddy loses to MK, Snake, IC, arguably vs Olimar and Wario.
Snake loses to MK, maybe Pikachu [looking at current results, idk anything about the match-up though]

WTF man, Diddy ***** ICs and not the other way round, and he doesnt loose to them at all, very likely even match ups. Rofl. MK maybe is -1 though.

This tier list... Its not what I was expecting. Not sure how to feel about Snake's spot. Anyway, I think all of Snake's match-ups are really in the neutral range. The biggest reason is that every character can capitalize on Snake's recovery of getting back down and wreck him. But, he can also put up a pretty good fight when not offstage. For that, Snake can solo tourneys. He sort of embodies the wreck or get wrecked thing that happens in melee. Falco wrecks on stage, but once offstage it should be is lost stock.

Exactly, Snake has no real bad match-up, thats good for him, but probably no / not many +2s and better. His match up spread is very evenish overall, thats why he can lose to many characters, while still being able to beat everyone. So if a good player takes snake he can still get far. But in a tournament setting with many good players its hard to go Snake only, as you can lose to many characters, while playing MK, Diddy, ICs or Olimar is A LOT better vs. most of the characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tell me why you think Snake is SO good? Or what makes him better than Diddy, ICs, Olimar?

IC are better than Snake. Olimar is about as good as Snake ... maybe a little better or worse - hence Snake being 3rd or 4th.

Diddy just isn't that good. Watch ES@M vs Gn3s from Apex if you wanna see how the match-up goes. And planking Pit doesn't beat Snake. Masashi is a better player than Souther and he planks like nobody else but he still has a losing record against him. Snake still beats Wolf and is either even with or beats Wario.

Snake is NOT "easy to bait". No character is easy to bait - players are more or less inclined to fall for baits but that has nothing to do with the character.

 

[xDD-Master]

Snake is NOT "easy to bait". No character is easy to bait - players are more or less inclined to fall for baits but that has nothing to do with the character.

Says the guy who is actually winning tournaments and is good at the game (<3)

Of course players always are more deciding than characters, but that doesnt mean that some characters cant be better than others at baiting the oppenant. Snake just has not many options in many situations and has to rely on stupid stuff like blowing yourself up etc.

And the characters I listed just do this pretty well.
Wolf can combo Snake like hell, zone him and can deal SOOOO well with Snakes camping (thx to down-B), can space him with bair, and he can gimp him pretty well with good grabs->dthrow->edgeguard.

Wario can probably camp 10 Minutes if he got the % lead and even greater his lead by punishing Snakes Laggy aerials / moves. Fart kills Snake before Snake can kill Wario. Then we also got cypher gimps, combos and again, a very good camping game.

Maybe Masashi just sucks at planking snake if he cant plank Snake correctly? When was the last meeting of Masashi vs a Snake?

You cant just say "Masashi doesnt beat Snakes with pit -> MU is in favor of Snake" thats not how it works.

What should I do that you believe me?
Beat all german Snakes with Pit? All eurpean Snakes? All Snakes on this planet? Tell me. (Note: I'm note a good pit main, I'm just good at planking with him, lol, not that its hard XD)

Its not my fault that there arent many pits, and the actual pits not being good vs. Snake...
What options does Snake have to beat Pits planking?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Being bad at this game has nothing to do with my observation skills. You're right though I'm bad at that too proven by me predicting Japan > the rest ~two-three years in advance among others. I let you guys enjoy your happy ignorance now.

 

[xDD-Master]

Being bad at this game has nothing to do with my observation skills. You're right though I'm bad at that too proven by me predicting Japan > the rest ~two-three years in advance among others. I let you guys enjoy your happy ignorance now.

lolgheb.

You know me, and that I also said that Japan > All since like 2 or 3 years, YOU KNOW THIS!!! (At least you should from our talks @ ds etc).

And being bad actually shows one thing: That you dont know what actually is important and effective in this game. If you would know this, you wouldnt place so bad.
You are bad at analyzing what is good in this metagame and what is not.

You may know what characters place good, and you may also have good knowledge about the characters themselves (maybe you even read MU threads, idk), but you lack one thing: The Top Player mindset, which includes to know what is effective in the Metagame and what not. And Snake just isnt an very effective force in this metagame. He is solid, but you cant scare people with him anymore like it was possible in the past. People just dont fear him nowadays, and that is, because the metagame got better, and in this metagame there is no real place for Snake, because he just isnt that good, unless you are a really good player and you are able to minimize his weaknesses and maximaze his strengths. But you can do that with nearly every character, thats why you also see
Its the players that keep Snake so high.
Just watch how easy most Snake Mains change their characters and still have a good shot at getting high in tournaments. Its because not their character was carrying them, but the players just being good. Thats why you also see Will getting high with DK, or Ocean getting 9 at Apex, or the Yoshis and Sonics doing well here and there. They are just good players and on a level, where Characters are less important than player skill (Except some MUs ofc.)

 

[etecoon]

I disagree with gheb on many things and think he's especially wrong about snake in general, but

And being bad actually shows one thing: That you dont know what actually is important and effective in this game. If you would know this, you wouldnt place so bad.

brawl is a game that rewards raw talent and patience above all else, no amount of knowledge elevates someone with an average skillset to top player status. this is a completely irrelevant low blow

 

[False]

Gheb imo snake goes even with d3, loses to Marth -1, and loses to oli -1

Ignore xDD master as he is completely theory crafting at this point... We do NOT get ***** Wario and other mentioned characters.. and most importantly Snake is not a gimmick character. Anyone who has definable ways to go about winning MUs is not gimmicky.. our camp game, tilts, pivot grabs, and dthrows are definitely not gimmicky.

 

[xDD-Master]

Camp Game, Tilts, Pivot Grabs and Dthrow dont help in MUs where your character gets outcamped, outranged, outspaced or vs characters that you cant grab.

Try camping a good planking pit - lol
Try tilting a good planking pit - lol
Try pivot grabbing a good planking pit - lol
Try dthrowing a good planking pit... well you wont grab him so whatever

If you cant camp your oppenant, and they outrange/outcamp you, Snake is in big trouble. And in that match-ups gimmicks (AKA stuff your oppenant isnt prepared for) are pretty good.
You saw how Mr-R beat Otoris MK in Friendlies? Doing crazy stuff.
You saw how Ally plays vs. ICs? Going in as hell and just wrecking them with his offensive, even though Snake CAN camp ICs, and that is what most people suggest in that MU.

But Brawl just doesnt work like this, you need to do stuff your oppenant isnt prepared for, and that doesnt is pretty hard for Snake, as he is very limited in some situations.
I never said Snake is like Low Tier or something, but compared to the other Top Tiers he just lacks the tools to shut down their oppenants and therefore the character needs smart players that compensate for that, because then Snake gets a solid character.

But oh well, thats just my opinion and I'm totally fine if you disagree with me. Lets wait and see how Snake will go down even more in the future, when its time, I will be the one that said "I knew it!"

brawl is a game that rewards raw talent and patience above all else, no amount of knowledge elevates someone with an average skillset to top player status. this is a completely irrelevant low blow

I disagree, knowledge is pretty important in Brawl. You need to know when what tactic / move is effective and how to use it. A lot of this stuff comes from experience, as you most likely end up in some situations again and again, and you learn what worked, and what not.
Its just that in many situations, Snake doesnt have one options that cant be countered if played correctly. For that Situations you need gimmicky stuff your oppenant isnt prepared for.

 

[Jrugs]

Camp Game, Tilts, Pivot Grabs and Dthrow dont help in MUs where your character gets outcamped, outranged, outspaced or vs characters that you cant grab.

Try camping a good planking pit - lol
Try tilting a good planking pit - lol
Try pivot grabbing a good planking pit - lol
Try dthrowing a good planking pit... well you wont grab him so whatever

If you cant camp your oppenant, and they outrange/outcamp you, Snake is in big trouble. And in that match-ups gimmicks (AKA stuff your oppenant isnt prepared for) are pretty good.
You saw how Mr-R beat Otoris MK in Friendlies? Doing crazy stuff.
You saw how Ally plays vs. ICs? Going in as hell and just wrecking them with his offensive, even though Snake CAN camp ICs, and that is what most people suggest in that MU.

But Brawl just doesnt work like this, you need to do stuff your oppenant isnt prepared for, and that doesnt is pretty hard for Snake, as he is very limited in some situations.
I never said Snake is like Low Tier or something, but compared to the other Top Tiers he just lacks the tools to shut down their oppenants and therefore the character needs smart players that compensate for that, because then Snake gets a solid character.

But oh well, thats just my opinion and I'm totally fine if you disagree with me. Lets wait and see how Snake will go down even more in the future, when its time, I will be the one that said "I knew it!"




I disagree, knowledge is pretty important in Brawl. You need to know when what tactic / move is effective and how to use it. A lot of this stuff comes from experience, as you most likely end up in some situations again and again, and you learn what worked, and what not.
Its just that in many situations, Snake doesnt have one options that cant be countered if played correctly. For that Situations you need gimmicky stuff your oppenant isnt prepared for.

Where have you been all my life. Thank you

People, just cause some one points out snakes limitations doesnt mean where saying: OMFG snake is low tier!!!!!! it just means he cannot efectively stop some of the gayest and most effective tactics in braw history (i.e planking,getting out camped, gimps, cgs)
Honestly every character even fkn lucas can beat us if they just play really really gay and just hold shield every time the expect an u/f-tilt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXBMlSh1lc

@ false - part of me thinks D3 is even cuz honestly its not that hard of an Mu to win. D3 is slow as hell and grenades are life savers.But like I said before -1 seems where its at.


look lets just all agree is a good char......maybe b-tier good

 

[etecoon]

knowledge is useful, but even having a high level knowledge of your character and situations, someone with a 300ms twitch reaction and klutzy fingers is going to have severely limited potential.

 

[Jrugs]

knowledge is useful, but even having a high level knowledge of your character and situations, someone with a 300ms twitch reaction and klutzy fingers is going to have severely limited potential.

Broly........?

Broly - 1700.43

yet still B-tier in Texas, yeah knowledge is everything in brawl. If knowledge wasnt that important, we would just have nothing but melee players who barely play brawl just come and take our money every tourney if it was about reaction time.

 

[etecoon]

Broly........?

physically handicapped but he's extremely sharp. I've seen someone else without an arm play guitar using his feet, but you have to have the mental facilities for that and the central nervous system.

yet still B-tier in Texas, yeah knowledge is everything in brawl. If knowledge wasnt that important, we would just have nothing but melee players who barely play brawl just come and take our money every tourney if it was about reaction time.

melee players continued dominating brawl in the early days until most of them quit the game because they found it boring, ally was the first pure brawler to really reach the top echelon and whaddya know, he has amazing reaction time and instincts

instincts are also something that can not be learned and are fundamental to almost all forms of competition. you can also have an amazing physical skillset and no instincts and fall short because of that(lebron james syndrome)

 

[xDD-Master]

knowledge is useful, but even having a high level knowledge of your character and situations, someone with a 300ms twitch reaction and klutzy fingers is going to have severely limited potential.

You imply that you can get all of your knowledge from the boards, which is COMPLETELY wrong. At least 50% of a Top players knowledge comes from play, and is NOT shared on the boards. You cant share good mindgames, or you wont share them as then they wouldnt work anymore if people know them.

When I talk about knowledge I mean 'What you do in situation X Y'.
Most of the collected knowledge on Smashboards is a Pro/Con List, or a "what you CAN do" and not a "what you should do" write up, as the "what you should do" write up doesnt work anyway, here is where actual players come into play. What works vs. one player, has not to work vs. others as well. And here you need the knowledge (that mostly comes from experience) to know what you do vs. Play-Style XYZ.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Hey Snake boards. .-.

I think Olimar and ICs get what they deserved all along. Olimar...not so much, if only because of his recovery. But he's definitely A-tier material.
Snake? Well, I was a little dissapointed with his' and Falco's drop, but two spaces isn't that much.

 

[etecoon]

You imply that you can get all of your knowledge from the boards

I never said anything like this, the most useful thing IMO that most players are too lazy to do is studying replays, you won't learn **** on smashboards compared to that

 

[Jrugs]

physically handicapped but he's extremely sharp. I've seen someone else without an arm play guitar using his feet, but you have to have the mental facilities for that and the central nervous system.



melee players continued dominating brawl in the early days until most of them quit the game because they found it boring, ally was the first pure brawler to really reach the top echelon and whaddya know, he has amazing reaction time and instincts

instincts are also something that can not be learned and are fundamental to almost all forms of competition. you can also have an amazing physical skillset and no instincts and fall short because of that(lebron james syndrome)

yeah I understand what you are saying. However you can learn routines through brawl cuz thats just the kind of game it is, like dealing with bad habits like rolling, there is only so many times you can keep getting hit with the same punch. Sadly most people just end up not learning from their mistakes and just quit the game instead of watching replays of them playing or actually wanting to find out what they did wrong.

 

[Rayquaza07]

snake was never top 3 get over it

 

[xDD-Master]

I never said anything like this, the most useful thing IMO that most players are too lazy to do is studying replays, you won't learn **** on smashboards compared to that

You cant get a high level knowledge (The knowledge I was talking about) if you are just not good enough to even get in the range of possibility to get that knowledge.
You cant read a book if you cant read.
You wont get a high level knowledge of the game, of you have no access to get these knowledge.
You will only make high level experiences and gain knowledge from it, if you actually play at the top level.
And this is what you need. Thats why I said, that Ghebs knowledge is limited and he doesnt know stuff that high level players do know, and sadly you cant get that knowledge from SWF.
And thats why I also said (I worded it wrong though) that you seem (<- that was the word I was missing) to imply that you can get the whole knowledge about the game from SWF, which is just wrong.
If I misunderstood you, I'm sry ^^
I hope you can understand my thoughts though :3

 

[Jrugs]

snake was never top 3 get over it

:D Horay!!! x2

 

[Rayquaza07]

Snake still is not even top 5 imo for a lot of reasons

-He has barely any mus where he can win extremely easily
-He has the 2nd highest learning curve in the game
-He gets beat by nearly everyone in the top and high tier along with the border line tier
-He lacks mk-like cps
-His recovery sux and every1 and their uncle knows how to punish it

 

[Jrugs]

Snake still is not even top 5 imo for a lot of reasons

-He has barely any mus where he can win extremely easily
-He has the 2nd highest learning curve in the game
-He gets beat by nearly everyone in the top and high tier along with the border line tier
-He lacks mk-like cps
-His recovery sux and every1 and their uncle knows how to punish it

:D Horay!!! x3

.....seriously rayquaza theres only so many times I can keep posting these smiley faces

You say that the underrating of Snake continues, so I'm curious how you would have made it differently. We have hard data from tournaments (John#'s chart, which admittedly could be open to interpretation some, compared to usage), we have weighted MUs, and BBR opinion. Weighted MUs, which if we were to use a weighted MU as a tierlist like many fighters do, puts him at 7TH. The results put him at 5th. So, with the data putting him no higher than 5th, and then BBR votes keeping him them instead of allowing the MUs to pull him down, I'm very curious in how you think another, objective, method could have been used.