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Smashing Ground III (12/23/06) at CoD: Under New Management!

Codename: Zero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
213
next time don't do random seeding...it really messes up the brackets

Huge problems will arise if we do seedings that is not random. . . Not only is it more time consuming, but the criteria is hard to judge. People said we should seed by "skill" so that the better players don't knock each other out in the first rounds. Problem with that is, how are we going to judge that? Sure, we have our big name players like Eddie and Tink, but what are we going to do with everyone else?

Eddie / Tink / Viperboy still made top 3 anyways, I'm pretty sure most people saw that comming anyways since Cunning wasn't in singles.

Anyways, SG IV should be announced in the first week of January, we just have to wait for COD's break to get over with so Fugie can go to school and check for available dates.
 

BIG C

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 24, 2004
Messages
3,917
Location
Distributing justice 24/7.
no seeding by skill would be doing RR pools tho. What every1 wants is crew seperation so they dont pay money to play their friend first round. no on wants that so when u take registration u take crew as well. being that me eddie tink viperboy and cunning are in the same crew it would stop us from playing each other 1st or 2nd round. 3rd round is unavoidable if it happens that way its how it does.
 

viperboy_74

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
3,824
Location
Charleston Illinois
gg all, especially eddie, chen, tink, and the ckit (though you didn't get to enter singles)

to everyone at the hotel - lol, you locked us out with the crack whores who wouldn't leave our room... what a good story :)

eddie - i probly shouldn't have won... u'll get me next time.

ckit - i'm sure you would have destroyed me in singles, if you were able to enter. **** fun friendlies.

tink - what a fro...

anyway, good times to all. hopefully i'll be seeing most of you at my place this coming weekend.
 

Razor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
265
maybe if you guys were better you wouldn't have to worry about losing early. In the end the better players won and the bad ones lost. AND big C didn't even use his mains.

if you are going to give out johns, at most complain how you lost and get better rather than complain about how you were seeded.
 

Jazzness

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
599
Location
West Des Moines, IA
Random seeding + Double Elimination is the way to go. It's the only way to promote fair competition in an un-ranked tournament system in the most unbiased and professional way.

Whether or not people don't want to play against their friends shouldn't really be the primary concern. Fairness, professionalism, and objectivity should be.

Why Crew-based seeding & Round Robins are unnecessary and often biased

I am of the opinion that one should NEVER separate people by crews in double-elimination brackets OR in Round Robins. Manual placement of players by crews is purely subjective, and it allows people to choose who they're not going to play in the brackets until later. This is a one form of bracket fixing: trying to manipulate the brackets in such a way that is advantageous to players who belong to crews.

The competitive nature of double-elimination is such that it gives everyone a chance of advancing to a certain degree according to their skill level. The random aspect of it must be maintained in order for it to work. It is the most objective manner to carry out tournaments that I know of because of it.

In any bracket system, it is extremely important to note that players MUST NOT be allowed to look at the brackets beforehand!! I am aware of several cases where top-tier players in Illinois have actually made shady deals with each other in order to promote their advancement and cash returns.

For example, two friends (or crew-mates) are about to play each other in the winner's bracket, and they see who the loser plays next (in the loser's bracket). If one friend thinks they can beat that player that their friend cannot, he would simply agree to forfeit or throw the current match to his friend, get thrown into the loser's bracket, and play the next match. This is also considered conspiring to fix the brackets, and is penalized by disqualification in MLG.

Round Robins, regardless of whether you separate by crews or not, easily become biased due to one player's ability to directly affect another player's advancement through forfeits.
Stupid Fast-like-Tree rule is in place specifically for that reason.

For those of you who don't know this rule, it was invented at MELEE FC6 when FastLikeTree purposely lost to a friend (?) of his, which ended up ousting AOB from advancing.

The reason why this happened is because AOB and another player were about tied for advancing in wins/losses, and FastLikeTree was at the top of his pool. Fast-like-Tree could sacrifice one loss and still advance, and so when FastLikeTree played against his friend, he gave him the one win he needed (pretty much by throwing the match) to beat AOB's record and advance.

If you plan on spending the ghastly amount of time it takes to run Round Robins, make each player report their wins/losses to a designated scorekeeper (not a friend!), and KEEP PLAYER SCORES CONFIDENTIAL!!!

Bracket fixing is a serious problem among independently-run tournaments, and all efforts must be made to reduce such a form of cheating.

Again, more effort must be made to promote fairness, professionalism, and objectivity than promoting subjective, player-player relationships in tournament play.




P.S. Sorry BigC. I don't believe in crews holding any substance in competitive play.

P.P.S. TJ, stop forgetting that I exist in your shoutouts (it's annoying), and I'll wish you congratulations for your win over Eddie and taking 2nd place in singles.
 

WiseLugia

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
420
Location
Ostia, Elibe
More setups next time, people.

In all seriousness, we need them in order to keep things moving. Nobody of great note stuck around for the late low tier, which made me sad, and crews didn't happen at all.
 

Codename: Zero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
213
and crews didn't happen at all.
I think that's because of the mass exodus that happened with the lights went out and Brightside yelled out "Everybody has to leave!"

Then again, we didn't advertise crews at all at the site. . . It will be heavily emphasised next SG.
 

Zjiin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2006
Messages
4,005
Location
Brazil, SouThSidE!
to everyone at the hotel - lol, you locked us out with the crack whores who wouldn't leave our room... what a good story :)
anyway, good times to all. hopefully i'll be seeing most of you at my place this coming weekend.
Party with a bunch of trashed out chicks and pay the price. But seriously, that was terrifying.
 

jnolan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
192
Location
Darien, IL
First, I would like to say thanks for the *** kicking by Jazz, Eddie, and Cunning. lol

But onto the entire 'pools' idea... although it would be nice to have them, there are simply not enough set ups, and it would be to biased (as it was pointed out, top players are obvious, but where to go from there gets biased and all).

So even though people get booted early, it is just the luck of the draw basically. Besides, it gives us lower end players (myself, WL, Zero, Sveet... no offence to us, but we are) a chance to play against better players and not simply advance due to we are playing against cruddy players.

BTW, merry x-mas to you all.

PS: Im sorta lazy, so anyone know of any tournies in the next week or so in the Chicago-land area?
 

James Sparrow

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 26, 2005
Messages
3,162
Location
East Wisconsin
viperboy - thanks for the friendlies, nice job in singles.

jazzness - wanted to do our money match but the whole lack of setups was kinda lame, next tourny we're both at we can do it still if you want.

crash and sauce - you guys are fun to watch in teams, gg's too.

hoefler - i want to see the video of the fight of the one arm guy.
 

AOB

Bad command or file name
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 22, 2003
Messages
6,166
Location
Louisville KY
You know, Mike, at SMYM 4 (or 5?) we did crew seeding. You randomize it but ensure that crew members are in opposite halves/quarters, that's all. I like to use successive coin-flips.
--oh, and that tournament maker software has a separate-by-crew option also. It's much nicer than randomly seeding.

And it turns out that what Fastliketree did at FC didn't actually cost me the advancement because I didn't have the wins--but what he did was wrong all the same.
 

Robin60062

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
86
Location
UIUC
I'm for separating crews. At this tourny, 2 of the first round singles matches were 4 champaigners playing each other. Thing is, we play against each other all the time....
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
it really wouldnt be that hard to do, especially because the software we were using had the option there. it does not fix the brackets at all.
 

Jazzness

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
599
Location
West Des Moines, IA
You know, Mike, at SMYM 4 (or 5?) we did crew seeding. You randomize it but ensure that crew members are in opposite halves/quarters, that's all. I like to use successive coin-flips.
--oh, and that tournament maker software has a separate-by-crew option also. It's much nicer than randomly seeding.

And it turns out that what Fastliketree did at FC didn't actually cost me the advancement because I didn't have the wins--but what he did was wrong all the same.
I know crew-seeding CAN be done by separating the brackets into strata. I'm just arguing that crews themselves shouldn't really be considered in the first place. Crews are cliques, not professional teams.

Oh, and MLG definitely argues against crew-seeding.

- - -

Regarding FastLikeTree -- I know of other occurances where people did that. FastLikeTree wasn't the first to take advantage of the Round Robin DIY scoring system. Round Robins just don't seem to be time efficient or effective in keeping things fair.

---

Anyone who I didn't get to carry out $MM's with at SG III is welcome to renew their $MM application at a future tournament event!

James Sparrow, how much?

MJN, Hoefler, you guys still up for Falcon Futbol in the near future?
 

Brightside6382

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,538
Location
Skokie, IL
I think that's because of the mass exodus that happened with the lights went out and Brightside yelled out "Everybody has to leave!"

Then again, we didn't advertise crews at all at the site. . . It will be heavily emphasised next SG.
Gotta admit that was pretty funny though ^_^. Only reason no one stayed for low tier or crews was cause there was no money involved. I don't see any reason to stay past like 12-3 o clock in the morning just to play crews and low tier.
 

AOB

Bad command or file name
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 22, 2003
Messages
6,166
Location
Louisville KY
Good luck convincing me, or most people, that playing your friend early in the brackets doesn't totally suck. Couple that with the fact that crewmates often tend to be similar in skill anyway, at least compared to people from other crews--two birds with one stone.
 

BIG C

Smash Master
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crew seperation is the way to go sorry mike, i understand that it shouldn't matter in competitive play, but when u play ur crew member that you play all the time that knows you and for me is more or less better than you i don't think it's fair. u should be put with ppl u dont know b4 ur crewmate u shouldnt have to play ur crew members until the 3rd round at least.
 

Codename: Zero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
213
when u play ur crew member that you play all the time that knows you and for me is more or less better than you i don't think it's fair.

Then if we do crew seperation it wouldn't be fair to the people who don't have a crew because the crews then get some say of who they don't get to face while one who doesn't belong to a crew doesn't get that luxury.
 

Tink

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
5,439
Location
Chi-Town
people that dont have a crew shouldnt be able to argue this point at all, becuase they have never been put against thier crew member before, in early rounds.

codenamezero said:
Then if we do crew seperation it wouldn't be fair to the people who don't have a crew because the crews then get some say of who they don't get to face while one who doesn't belong to a crew doesn't get that luxury.
its not as if the people say, move us away and to this spot. its not like that at all. if you have your crewmate first or second round, its not hard to just make them random again. i could see if its an 8 man bracket, but we had like a 32 man bracket or something.

it's just not fun to play someone in tourny like 1st or 2nd round thats in your crew. i just dont think that thats right at all. expecially for the people that travel. those people come from far hours to play and be/get eliminated by one of there crew members <_<. what the? that would piss me off.
 

Jazzness

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
599
Location
West Des Moines, IA
Then if we do crew seperation it wouldn't be fair to the people who don't have a crew because the crews then get some say of who they don't get to face while one who doesn't belong to a crew doesn't get that luxury.
Codename Zero knows where I'm comin' from.

AOB, BigC, how is it a problem if two people of similar skill are competing against each other?

Also keep in mind there are no exclusions for people and their partners in 2v2. MLG doesn't even allow for forfeits, the match MUST be played out.

Separating by crews is like an instructor giving a course exam and having to split up class sections by how many Geeks and Jocks there are per room.
 

BIG C

Smash Master
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Distributing justice 24/7.
its not a problem that they are of similar skill but a problem that they play each other all the time. people dont want to come to a tournament to play someone they play everyday. what if you played tink everyday and lost to him every match everytime when he tries. would you want to play tink 1st round of the tournament. this of course comes from the person who gets eliminated from small tournies from the same 2 ppl everytime tink in winners and trail in losers. both, basically crewmates its basically no point in me playing the 1st round of the tourny if i get them. id rather just go pichu against them then play them 1st or 2nd round.
 

TheWalkingThano

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 21, 2006
Messages
352
Location
Evanston, IL
I'm in favor of crew separation for a pretty simple reason. I, and probably a lot of people, came to at least play against new people and to learn things from people way better than they are. As Robin said above, out of 5 people from Chambana (who play each other often), 4 of us got paired against each other in the first round, which included me. That sucked! Couple that with the fact there weren't that many setups and suddenly I barely got to play against other people even in friendlies.
 

AOB

Bad command or file name
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 22, 2003
Messages
6,166
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Louisville KY
AOB, BigC, how is it a problem if two people of similar skill are competing against each other?
That's... that's the whole point of seeding by skill. Better players play inferior players so that the better players don't knock each other out until the later rounds.

And your analogy makes no sense. You take an exam by yourself, not against someone--and the purpose of an exam is to test your knowledge independently of how other people do. The purpose of a tournament is to have the best players place highest.

Yes, it gives people in a crew an advantage. Being in a crew has advantages.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
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Northern IL
Yes, it gives people in a crew an advantage. Being in a crew has advantages.
i disagree, i think that it evens the playing field with the people who arent in a crew. if you arent in a crew u dont have to worry about people knowing your playing style and what not. you can surprise every person in the tournament with your style. People in crews know each other in and out and can win easily vs each other. seeding so you by crews makes it so you arent knocked out/given free win in the first round or so, making it for more balanced seeding compared to strict random seeding.
 

Codename: Zero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
213
i disagree, i think that it evens the playing field with the people who arent in a crew. if you arent in a crew u dont have to worry about people knowing your playing style and what not. you can surprise every person in the tournament with your style. People in crews know each other in and out and can win easily vs each other. seeding so you by crews makes it so you arent knocked out/given free win in the first round or so, making it for more balanced seeding compared to strict random seeding.
Being in a crew means you have a team that you can train with and share strategy with. It means you have a consistent partner to play with to gain more experience. The experience and knowledge gained through crews outweighs the suprise factor by far. Not only does it help make you a better player, but the odds of you playing a crew member is far slimmer than playing against a random person you've never heard of before.
 

AOB

Bad command or file name
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 22, 2003
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6,166
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Louisville KY
Well now, only some of the players in crews can win easily against crewmates--the other ones can LOSE easily against their crewmates. Anyway, unfamiliar playing styles don't win games for you anymore. Maybe 2 years ago.
 

viperboy_74

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
3,824
Location
Charleston Illinois
jazzness - lol, sorry mike... i forgot to put you into my shoutouts...

nice job, beating chen. thanks for the congrats, and your marth ***** me at first. wish i could have played it again when i got warmed up though :(. maybe next time. you're getting beasty, keep it up.


i agree on crew seperatoins off the bat, even over RR's most the time. i don't think it should really matter in smaller tourneys if the better players play first off compared to crew mates...
 

BigGman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 1, 2002
Messages
256
Location
chicago
i personally think RR into a double elimination bracket is the worst way to run a tournament. this is mainly because of people throwing matches, not playing to their full potential or training up their secondary characters. this type of stuff can alter alot of things in the bracket. it can keep someone out, or it can change a seed from a 4 to a 3, which is a huge difference. since the brackets are generally written beforehand, you could actually decide where you want to be. which is totally unfair.

as for crew seperation, i think it should only be done for traveling people. the idea of a tournament is to see how far you can get. if you traveled from a long way, only to be knocked out by your crew members, that's not testing anything and you didn't really learn anything either.
 

Ignatius

List Evader
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Messages
5,517
It's more of people don't want to pay $15 to play someone they play every day or weekend for free first or second round in a tournament, that's just kinda lame.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
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Messages
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Northern IL
i agree with ignatius. and to AOB, the style might not be a surprise, but i know my crew's mental tendancies very well, so if i play them its usually an easy win. id rather have a match i had to try for and win. ive never had to play my crewmates in brackets, but i can understand where these guys are coming from not wanting to pay $10 to play people they see every day. I want to test my skill and learn some things from other people.
 

Robin60062

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
86
Location
UIUC
Also, can we ban DK64 for the next tourny? My last post on DK64 was like a prophecy: Eddie died on that stupid barrel....
 

eighteenspikes

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Messages
4,358
Location
Neenah, WI
good tourney

jazzness, what was up with our moneymatches? You took my money as soon as you won the 2nd match in our main char games, but then when I won the 2nd game in low tier you said all moneymatches are best 3 of 5..................
 

Jazzness

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
599
Location
West Des Moines, IA
18spikes are you serious?

I'm definitely sorry if that's what happened, in my signature I always post ALL $MM ARE BEST OF 5. I didn't intend to cheat you outta any $.

I'll give you your $3 (?) back next time I see you.

Also,

DK 64 FOR LIFEEEEE!!!! <3
 
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