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Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

Zerp

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+:4feroy:
-:4pit:
+:4sonic:
+:4gaw:
+:4charizard:
Sorry but that's not what we're doing right now, we're reordering these guys: :4kirby::4miigun::4feroy::4charizard::4drmario::4wiifit::4samus::4bowserjr::4falco:.
If you still want to vote just read the spoiler and you'll be fine.
With the naming phase out of the way, we can focus on each individual tier. In these rounds, we go one tier at a time and settle on a proper order for the characters.

What's more, during these rounds, you can even vote to move ONE character Up or Down a tier (new tiers will not be created at the top or the bottom).

With Bottom Tier voted and locked, we can move onto the Low Tier:

Low Tier::4kirby::4miigun::4feroy::4charizard::4drmario::4wiifit::4samus::4bowserjr::4falco:

Your vote can be these characters in whatever order you like. For example, you can have Samus at the top, the 2nd place, the last place, wherever you like. Just be sure not to add or remove characters in this tier.

As an example, here is my personal vote.

Low Tier::4samus::4drmario::4kirby::4feroy::4charizard::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4miigun:
+1 :4samus:

As I feel Samus deserves to move up to the next tier, I placed her at the top of this tier, and gave her my + vote. I do feel that Mii Gunner should move down too, but we only get one + or - vote, so I stuck with Samus. You're free to + vote or - vote any character you like from this tier.

The character with the a noticeable amount of + or - votes will move up or down to the next tier. However, they cannot be voted upon in the next round, and will be left in a set of brackets to symbolise this: ( ).

Also, welcome to the boards!
 

QualityQ

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"need your opponent to give you an inch first"? Certainly not. It helps, yes, like it would for any character, but nope, she does not need the opponent to screw up to do things. She has plenty of moves that she can use to make openings, or force the opponent's hand to get her that opening. Missile is an example; it forces a reaction for example, that Samus has a tool to punish every option around it.
Thanks for reading! I accidentally put Samus one lower than I intended so I fixed that.

The problem there is missiles (and charge shot) lose to any better projectile or vertical camping (smashville platform for example), which is a number of characters can do. Dash attack is a pretty poor approach option due to run speed. Zair or Fair? Those don't seem to be good approach options either.
 

Nidtendofreak

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While its in the OP, maybe the next time we move onto the next tier show what the previous tier ended up looking like in the update post. Just a bit easier to find that way.

Anyhow:

:4feroy::4samus::4charizard::4wiifit::4kirby::4drmario::4falco::4bowserjr::4miigun:

-1:4miigun:


I gave the edge to Roy, simply because I feel he has the most use as a surprise pocket character, and I believe Samus is more riding a wave rather than her actually being higher on the tier list than she currently is.

EDIT: Made a few changes.
Juggled multiple characters around. Samus, Wii Fit, Falco moved up, Charizard, Kirby, Dr.Mario, Bowser.Jr moved down.
 

Bowserboy3

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Thanks for reading! I accidentally put Samus one lower than I intended so I fixed that.

The problem there is missiles (and charge shot) lose to any better projectile or vertical camping (smashville platform for example), which is a number of characters can do. Dash attack is a pretty poor approach option due to run speed. Zair or Fair? Those don't seem to be good approach options either.
Missiles are like standard projectiles; if two collide, the get cancelled out, nothing new here.

Charge Shot doesn't lose to a huge deal of things. To be honest, I don't know where that came from. There was a time when memes like "fully charged Charge Shot loses to Fireball". Just turns out people don't do their research. Partially charged shots can lose to things, because that's what they are; partially charged. Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball work in a similar way.

Things it does legitimately lose to include thrown items (like a thrown Bomb, or Banana, only while they are being thrown though), and Needles (which is kind of negligible anyway; Needles beat almost all projectiles anyway, part of why they're still the best projectile in the game). Charge Shot actually forces people not to platform camp, due to it's ability to break shields (ie: Up Tilt into a jumping Charge Shot will break a shield on somebody standing in shield on a platform).

Dash Attack is arguably one of (if not the [but I remember Meta Knight's exists too]) the best Dash Attack's in the game. It's not Samus's go-to approach option, but it works as one, because, like Meta Knight's, it has little endlag, and can cross up shields.

Zair isn't a "standard" approach option; it can work as one, but it's more of a spacing option, which in turn, grants Samus stage control on hit, or even sets up into a combo (Dash Attack, grab etc). It baits reactions, and can stop aerial approaches. It's a tool for the neutral. Samus can use it in unison with her Dash Attack, and Forward Tilts to space around in the neutral.

Fair isn't an approach option, and never has been. It's landing lag is too much to be even slightly effective; it's much more a combo tool, or a move that stops/beats high aerial approaches/commitments. While not strictly approach options, all her other aerials would work better here, but Nair and Bair get mentions due to combinations of speed/power/shield safety/AC frames etc. They would work better than Fair.

Samus defies the norm in a lot of senses, which is part of her appeal if you ask me, and part of why what she has works.

Samus's main problem is that she lacks real, reliable "get off me" options, though to be fair, is a flaw she's had since year dot. Her old Nair was decent at this, but it was never reliable (off topic, I despise the idea of "give Samus her old Nair back!". No thanks, I'd rather have a front facing Bair you don't have to space that's safe on shield). Since it's endlag buff, Down Smash works decently here, but it's reward is never good enough. Down Tilt is OK, but again, it's never threatening enough.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Bowserboy3 Bowserboy3 Update soon?

Guess I'll discuss some of the low-mid tier chars while waiting.

:4wario2: has some pretty impressive showings with Gluttony. His MU chart isn't that bad either, with lots of even matchups and not many 40-60 MUs. I think he could potentially be regular mid tier, or top of low-mid tier.
:4shulk: is also pretty decent and could move up, or at least place high in low-mid tier.
:4gaw: should also be pretty high on low-mid. 17th at EVO and a decent MU chart.

I don't think anyone deserves to go down. :4pacman: is probably the weakest in the tier but he still gets some results and his MU chart is not really that bad.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Wario has significantly better results than Shulk atm, as seen by the updated results stuff I linked to here. He's the character that should get voted up to the bottom of the next tier.

Shulk's current results numbers are actually much more in line with the tier below him. He uh, should be in the bottom half of his current tier. I'd say move down but I doubt that's going to go through. Though the movement I want the most is Palutena going back down. Results have started to dry up + just lost one of her major mains + she was already borderline given by how many times she moved up and down? Ya time for her to drop back down now.
 
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D

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Wario has significantly better results than Shulk atm, as seen by the updated results stuff I linked to here. He's the character that should get voted up to the bottom of the next tier.

Shulk's current results numbers are actually much more in line with the tier below him. He uh, should be in the bottom half of his current tier. I'd say move down but I doubt that's going to go through. Though the movement I want the most is Palutena going back down. Results have started to dry up + just lost one of her major mains + she was already borderline given by how many times she moved up and down? Ya time for her to drop back down now.
TLTC actually still plays Palu, he just picked up Diddy as a secondary.

I still feel like Shulk could move up but he's fine where he is too.
 

Frihetsanka

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Otherway around by the sound of his original twitter announcement: Diddy is primary, Palutena is for select MUs.
From his TwitLonger:

"At the moment, I plan to co-main Palutena and Diddy for matchups she cant cut it in. The following characters are who I plan to use Diddy in at the moment are as follows.

1. Diddy
2. Sheik
3. Metaknight
4. Fox
5. Sonic
6. Little Mac
7. (only a maybe) ZSS

Pretty much everything else I plan on still using Palu. I will also be less opposed to using Palu if I dont think the opponent knows the Matchup. This also works the other way (swap to diddy if they have massive Palu exp)."

Source: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spfjk9

So he is still maining Palutena, and Diddy Kong is more of a secondary/co-main.
 

Wintermelon43

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From his TwitLonger:

"At the moment, I plan to co-main Palutena and Diddy for matchups she cant cut it in. The following characters are who I plan to use Diddy in at the moment are as follows.

1. Diddy
2. Sheik
3. Metaknight
4. Fox
5. Sonic
6. Little Mac
7. (only a maybe) ZSS

Pretty much everything else I plan on still using Palu. I will also be less opposed to using Palu if I dont think the opponent knows the Matchup. This also works the other way (swap to diddy if they have massive Palu exp)."

Source: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spfjk9

So he is still maining Palutena, and Diddy Kong is more of a secondary/co-main.
...Little Mac?

Is that a comfort pick or is it actually a bad matchup for her?
 

Nidtendofreak

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From his TwitLonger:

"At the moment, I plan to co-main Palutena and Diddy for matchups she cant cut it in. The following characters are who I plan to use Diddy in at the moment are as follows.

1. Diddy
2. Sheik
3. Metaknight
4. Fox
5. Sonic
6. Little Mac
7. (only a maybe) ZSS

Pretty much everything else I plan on still using Palu. I will also be less opposed to using Palu if I dont think the opponent knows the Matchup. This also works the other way (swap to diddy if they have massive Palu exp)."

Source: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spfjk9

So he is still maining Palutena, and Diddy Kong is more of a secondary/co-main.
Soooo Diddy vs good characters except Little Mac?

I mean you can "say" that Palutena is still his main, but effectively the moment he makes progress in a tournament Palutena is getting shelved outside of extreme bracket luck giving him only Mewtwos and Clouds to go up against. Diddy, Sheik, Sonic ain't exactly rare, Fox and MK have been picking up mains a bit as well.
 

QualityQ

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Otherway around by the sound of his original twitter announcement: Diddy is primary, Palutena is for select MUs.
This exactly. If you're not going to play a character against Diddy, Sheik, and Fox, it's a secondary character. It definitely sounds like Diddy is the main character and Palutena is more of an option if you know you're going to lose as Diddy. Which is all good for him, there's no debate on how good Diddy is.

And out of :4gaw::4shulk::4littlemac::4pacman::4wario2::4palutena::4duckhunt:, I still think :4littlemac: needs to be moved down.

Pac destroys Mac. DHD can zone him. Wario has aerials to space and gas to finish. Palutena may be a better matchup for mac (??) and the rest of the characters here likely have no trouble with him. So is Mac really better than the characters in the tier below him, much less equal with the characters here?

The fact is with Sville/TaC/LC/BF/FD and Dreamland/Duck Hunt, Mac *must* ban Duck Hunt or lose to camping. He cannot reach the tree without using his upB, other than some dog shenanigans that are easily predictable. This means the opponent gets their best stage in best-of-3 every time. That's ignoring the fact there are so many 4-platform stages Mac hates as well. No matter how good your ground game is, you can't ignore how bad stage select is for him.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Just your usual "updating in a couple days post".

Anyone wanting to vote, or change votes, I recommend you do so now; I'll be updating either tomorrow or the day after.
 

Frihetsanka

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Soooo Diddy vs good characters except Little Mac?
Still Bayonetta, Cloud, Mario, Rosalina & Luma, Mewtwo, Marth, Ryu, Mega Man, Villager, Pikachu, Toon Link, Corrin, Greninja, Ness, Lucario, Captain Falcon, Bowser, Ness, Pit, Peach, Lucas, Robin, Donkey Kong, Olimar, etc. We'll probably see a fair bit of Palutena from him still, and he might even use Palutena against certain players of the characters he mentioned.

Pac destroys Mac. DHD can zone him. Wario has aerials to space and gas to finish. Palutena may be a better matchup for mac (??) and the rest of the characters here likely have no trouble with him. So is Mac really better than the characters in the tier below him, much less equal with the characters here?
Tier placement is not based on whether the character can beat other characters in the same tier, but rather overall MU chart and results. Little Mac has pretty good results, better than many other low-mid tiers. I think he should be pretty low in low-mid tier, but he's not quite Low tier, his results and MU chart are too good for that. Maybe. His MU chart is very mixed, with lots of really good (+2 and +3) MUs but also lots of really bad (-2 and -3) MUs. If you play Little Mac you'll want a secondary to cover the bad MUs or you'll want to use him as a secondary. I think he should still be a tier above Kirby, who is near the top of Low tier.

Frankly, I'm not convinced myself that he's not Low tier. His MU chart is very mixed, and having really good MUs vs some Low/Bottom tiers does not make up his bad MUs vs Cloud and Bayonetta. Furthermore, his stage select is bad. What might keep him in (low) mid tier are his results and his ability to do really well in certain games.

I'm also not convinced Pac-Man isn't worse than Little Mac. Either way I'd rather spend an upvote on Wario than a downvote on Little Mac or Pac-Man.

The fact is with Sville/TaC/LC/BF/FD and Dreamland/Duck Hunt, Mac *must* ban Duck Hunt or lose to camping.
According to Sol, Smashville is actually worse for him than Duck Hunt. This makes his stage select even worse, so yeah...
 

_Jack_

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Low Tier::4drmario::4kirby::4samus::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4charizard::4falco::4feroy::4miigun:
I vote to move down :4miigun: into bottom tier.


Explanations:

Mii Gunner: Why is Mii Gunner in this tier? Seriously, why is Mii Gunner in this tier? I know I'm not going a whole lot off of results, yet, (due to the lack of results in the lower tiers). However, Mii Gunner has absolutely pitiful results. As I probably have mentioned before, that's not entirely the fault of Gunner mains, but the fact still stands that this character has literally no results or notable representation. How could Gunner not be in bottom tier? Besides, it's not like Gunner has anything going for them. They're essentially just a poor man's version of Samus without anything that actually gives Samus potential in the metagame. Despite having good range, their KO moves all lack range or only have a sweetspot close to Gunner. Their grab game is one of the worst in the game. I still think Cloud's is worse, but it's still pretty darn bad. Their recovery may be the best of the Miis, but that's still not saying a lot considering it's still pretty weak in comparison to the rest of the cast. While their over-reliance on projectiles isn't inherently bad, it does make Rosalina, a very dominant character in the metagame, Gunner's worst nightmare to the point where Rosalina vs. Gunner is probably one of the worst matchups in the entire game. Gravitational Pull literally shuts down this character. Now, I know that's a specific example and Gunner is somewhat saved by the fact that, despite Rosalina being one of the best characters in the game, she's still rather uncommon when compared to the amount of mains of other top tiers like Sheik, Diddy, Zamus, and Cloud. But, it's not like Gunner does much better against any of these characters either. When Miis are counted, the three Miis are the worst three characters in the game. Brawler, in my opinion, is the worst of the three while it's really up to debate whether Swordsman is worse than Gunner or Gunner is worse than Swordsman.

Roy: In my opinion, Roy is the worst designed character in this game. In fact, I would be voting to move Roy down into the bottom tier if it weren't for the fact that Mii Gunner is here are their presence in this tier is a significantly more glaring issue than Roy's. Now, why is Roy the worst designed character in the game, you ask? Well, to answer that question, we need to talk about playstyles. Each character is designed with a specific playstyle in mind. Some are quite simple. Captain Falcon, for example, is designed to be an in-your-face, rushdown type character who often has to take high risks to get the highest reward possible. Marth, on the other hand, is designed to be a spacing type character, who, instead of getting up in his opponent's faces, wants to keep them in a position where he can hit them and they can't hit him (hence the tipper mechanic rewarding optimal spacing). However, in order to keep the game fresh and new, the developers sometimes try combining play-styles when creating characters, which is what they tried to do with Roy. Roy is supposed to be a hybrid of a brawler and sword character. However, all he has is the flaws of both without the strengths of either. Roy can't play like Falcon because, as is with most swordsmen, Roy's attacks have too much endlag to grant him a good approach and combo game. However, Roy can't play like Marth either because, as is with most brawlers, Roy's range is absolutely pathetic and he possesses one of the worst ranges in the entire game despite having a sword. On top of all of that, Roy's reverse tipper mechanic actually punishes the player for the most optimal spacing. This creates a problem when people consider maining Roy. People who want a rushdown character aren't going to main him because there's plenty of rushdown brawlers in this game that have plenty of approach and combo options. On the flipside, people who want a sword character aren't going to main him because there's plenty of swordsmen with significantly more range and who don't get punished for spacing their moves right. In my opinion, Roy, in his current state, will never have any significant impact in the metagame. His blend of two drastically different playstyles works so horribly that Roy can't even be played the ways he was intended to! That is just a sign of poor design right there. To be viable, I believe Roy would have to be completely reworked to cater more towards one archetype rather than the ineffective blend he has going on right now. Making Roy a pure rushdown character by giving him autocancels in a short hop and better frame data would make the character significantly better.

Falco: Falco, in my opinion, is the best of the truly bad characters in this game. The ONLY thing Falco has going for him is that his advantage state is actually pretty decent and he can get a lot off of a grab if he manages to get one. However, the problem with that is that Falco's everything else is horrible. His neutral is, without a doubt, one of the worst in the entire game. He has absolutely no way of approaching opponents safely nor does he have something capable of forcing approaches. Therefore, it's kinda hard for Falco to get the grab with his awful neutral. Falco's disadvantage state is also very poor. Being a light, fast faller like Fox, Falco is extremely easy to combo and KO and he lacks any good "get off me" tools. His recovery, while going a good distance, is easily predictable and easy to intercept. It doesn't help that Fire Bird lacks hitboxes while it charges. Falco's specials are all pretty bad. Because it was so strong in Melee and Brawl, Blaster has been nerfed to the point of being virtually unusable. Side B is good for recovery and nothing else. Up B is good for recovery and nothing else. Reflector is good against projectiles I guess, but you're not going to pick Falco because he can deal with projectiles. Anybody who wants a character who can deal with projectiles is running straight to Rosalina. Falco has nothing outside of a decent grab game. Heck, if Falco's grab combos didn't exist, he would be the worst character in the game by a considerable margin without a doubt, in my opinion. They just didn't give Falco anything here and it totally hurts him. While his grab game is pretty good, his awful neutral and awful disadvantage state make it extremely hard to get that grab. In neutral, if the opponent wants him to, Falco is going to have to approach and Falco doesn't have any approach options. So, he's gotta do something crazy that shouldn't work and pray it works. If it doesn't work, he's going to get comboed hard. All of the effort he has to go to in order to get that grab simply isn't worth the just decent reward he gets off of it. Also, try to think of one notable Falco player aside from Keitaro and he doesn't even get results outside of regionals. That's Falco's next to non existent results in a nutshell. Falco is a character that desperately needs a buff. He either needs a reliable way to approach opponents or a way to make them approach him. I'd prefer the latter in order to separate him from Fox. One Star Fox character could play a more rushdown and aggressive neutral while the other could play a more campy and defensive neutral. Make Blaster great again. I'm not saying it has to be like it was in Brawl or Melee, but please make it good enough so that Falco can reliable force approaches with it.

Zard: Poor Zard... The biggest problem with Zard isn't actually anything about him. His biggest problem is the fact that he exists in the same game as Bowser and Donkey Kong, two super heavyweights who can do more than Zard could ever dream of. They lack all of Zard's weaknesses to the same degree he does while, at the same time, having all of his strengths but better. Zard's mobility is good, but so is Bowser and DK's. Zard's power is decent, but Bowser and DK's moves are bigger, faster, and stronger, too. (I'm so sorry. I had to include that.) Zard has an okay grab game, but Bowser and DK have two of the best grab games in the entire game with the Ding Dong and Bowser's Up Throw to Aerial. Zard also lacks things like a good OOS game that these two have. As a result, Zard falls in an unfortunate spot. Due to being significantly worse than fellow super heavyweights, Bowser and DK, why would somebody who is playing this game competitively main Charizard? There's two, much better super heavyweights to use. Donkey Kong is around mid-tier while many believe Bowser is mid-tier at least and has the potential to climb into the high tiers. Now, Zard still has a few perks that make him significantly better than Ganon and Dedede. His mobility is good and he has both a combo throw in down throw and a kill throw in up throw (which happens to be the strongest up throw in the game). On top of all of that, Zard actually has some degree of results, which proves that, despite being this far down on the tier list, he still is viable to an extent. However, as I started this paragraph with, when it comes to super heavyweights, there's not just one, but two significantly better and more viable options available to use and that really makes people ignore Zard. Overall, Zard is a character whose weaknesses tend to be more prevalent than his strengths. However, like many other characters down here, you can't count Zard out and a good Zard is still capable of competing (to an extent).

Wii Fit Trainer: Wii Fit is just a weird character and not in a good way. First of all, her hitboxes. Wii Fit Trainer's hitboxes are very awkward and poor. Unlike most characters, it's a chore simply to hit with her attacks. This is because her hitboxes lack range and are very thin. Due to the awkward positioning of her attacks, it doesn't give her much in terms of a combo game and, because of her poor range, she'll often find herself in situations where her opponents can hit her, but she can't hit them. Her grab game is one of the worst in the entire game. It may not be as bad as Cloud's, but it's pretty bad. All of her grabs have very little range, her pummel is awful, and her throws don't really do anything. Her specials are nothing to write home about. Sun Salutation pales in comparison to some of the better "charge up finisher projectiles" in the game like Shadow Ball and Charge Shot. Header is decent, due to it's weird trajectory and mindgame potential. Super Hoop is a decent recovery move, but has a huge blank spot above Wii Fit Trainer, making her her prone to attacks while using it. Deep Breathing is literally just a crappy Monado Art. It lasts for a mere seven seconds and takes way too long to recharge. Not only that but, even when it is charged, it still takes a bit to use AND you can't do anything during it. It's not like Shulk's Monado Arts where all you have to do is press the B button 1-5 times and can do any other non-B move while the art is activating. On top of all of that, you STILL have to press B at the right time or the move will fail and you'll get stuck in even more lag. Wii Fit has a few positives including her good mobility allowing for a better approach than most low tiers have to offer. Though, they don't compensate for all of the inherent issues with the character. Finally, I know I haven't really been talking about results that much so far (mostly due to the low and bottom tier characters' lack of them), but Wii Fit Trainer has really dropped off in terms of results. After the buffs she received previously, she did see a bit of a surge in results (especially when customs were legal). However, we don't see anything from this character nowadays and that's what puts her here.

Bowser Jr.: Bowser Jr.'s entire metagame was previously carried by one man: Tweek. Through dropping Bowser Jr. for Cloud, Tweek effectively dropped Bowser Jr. into low tier, where he sits today. Bowser Jr. is a mish-mash of poor design choices that counter the positives of the character and really hinder his potential in a competitive environment. His mobility and grab game, two things that are very important for a character to be viable, are both really bad. His mobility is poor without the use of his Side B and his grab is very laggy for how little range it has. Not only that, but landing the grab yields next to no reward because Bowser Jr.'s grabs are awful. Aside from Side B, his specials leave much to be desired. Cannon Ball is a complete joke and is unarguably one of the worst move in the entire game. His Up B covers a good amount of distance, but has the fatal flaw of being unable to be reused if he is hit by a weak attack, making him extremely vulnerable to gimping. Mecha-Koopa can be good as a projectile, but it can just as easily be used against him. He has disjointed range, but his disjoints range from being only okayish to a Roy level of bad. His moveset is also on Shulk's level of lagginess, except with nowhere near as much range as him. Finally, Bowser Jr, as I mentioned before, has REALLY dropped off in terms of results. We never see Jr. doing anything anymore, much like Wii Fit Trainer. Jr. isn't all bad, though. Even if Bowser Jr. isn't as good as we once thought, Tweek has more than proved that, when played to his strengths, Bowser Jr. is still a character that you have to watch out for because he can and will obliterate you if you are careless. In addition to that, Jr. seems to have proven that he still is viable in the metagame as a counterpick, as evident by Jade's upset over Trela way back when. It's not that Jr. is bad as much as it is that other characters are better. He's still viable, but you're going to need other, better characters to back him up if you plan on maining him. If anything, Jr. proves just how balanced Smash 4's roster is. A character this low on the tier list is still quite viable and even deadly in the right hands.

Samus: Kirby and Samus, I'd say, are more or less tied with one another. However, since I have to choose, I think Samus is very slightly worse. In my opinion, she's not quite sure of what she wants to be. Does she want to be a zoner? Or, does she want to be a combo heavy, melee character? While she can zone, her projectiles all have their flaws. Charge Shot, obviously, can simply be shielded or sidestepped and requires a good amount of time to charge. And, when a Samus has one charged, the opponent is aware and ready to react to her firing it. It's extremely difficult to get opponents into a situation where she can fire the Charge Shot and surprise them because they're expecting it. Missiles are still a shell of their Melee selves as they continue to possess a ton of ending lag. Charge Shot is supposed to be her big, strong projectile. Why do Missiles still have a ton of ending lag, too? Samus' usage of her projectiles is very restricting and limited. Think of better zoners like Mega Man and Villager, who have a much greater flexibility with their projectiles that allows them to be used in a variety of different ways compared to Samus, who really doesn't have many options with her projectiles other than to stand there and shoot. In terms of her Melee game, Samus' combo game is surprisingly decent. She has many options to combo such as FAir, UAir, and the deadly Screw Attack. However, there's two problems with this. One, most of her combos come out of her D-Throw, which requires landing her laggy grab to preform. Two, while her combo game is impressive, it's nothing compared to the likes of Sheik, Bayo, Diddy, etc. Point it, if you want a character with combos, Samus is far from your best bet. However, her zoning game just doesn't have the flexibility and versatility of other, better zoners. Though, I will give Samus the benefit of the doubt. She is one of the harder characters in the game to play and, considering the low tier stigma she has, this scares a lot of people away from picking her up. I feel Samus' maximum potential has yet to be reached, especially considering how infamous she tends to be for causing upsets. Maybe a few years down the line, Samus players will manage to gain more mastery of their character and move her up into the mid-tiers. However, until then, Samus is here in my book.

Kirby: Kirby and Samus, I'd say, are more or less tied with one another. However, since I have to choose, I think Kirby is very slightly better. He's a lot like Doc in that he has a good combo game for a low tier, but everything else is pretty meh. If Kirby can start a combo on you, he'll surely tack on a load of percent with up tilts, forward airs, and up airs. However, there's one tiny flaw in that statement: IF Kirby can start a combo on you. Kirby's mobility is poor to say the least. While his dashing speed has been significantly improved from Brawl, it still is merely average at best. His air speed is pretty bad, though. So, we have average at best dashing speed and poor air speed. However, in addition to that, Kirby also has what has to be one of the worst overall ranges in the entire game, due to it being nerfed from Brawl. Despite having pretty solid frame data overall, Kirby's attacks cover so little space that you're never going to hit an opponent unless they're literally in his face. Considering a majority of characters got a buff in their range in transition from Brawl to Smash 4, this is a HUGE problem for Kirby. While he can be very deadly if he can get in on you, the fact that his overall mobility is below average at best AND he has what is arguably the worst overall range in the entire game means that it's extremely easy to wall Kirby out. It's very hard for Kirby to get in against many characters in the cast due to the fact that Kirby has next to no viable approach options. This allows the opponent to completely dominate neutral against Kirby because they can do pretty much whatever they want while Kirby has to worry about getting in and not getting punished, a problem that his kit does not offer an easy solution to. In addition to that, while Kirby can recover from very far away with his multiple jumps and solid recovery move, he's so slow and easy to telegraph that he's actually much easier to edgeguard than one would expect. His grab game is pretty solid though. He has a combo throw in F-Throw, a damage racking throw in D-Throw, and two situational kill throws in B-Throw and U-Throw. Kirby's special moves range from okay to absolutely useless. Hammer and Stone are absolutely useless against any player that's remotely good. Final Cutter is decent as a recovery move, but pitiful as an actual attack. Inhale is, by far, Kirby's best special, considering it allows him access to his famous copy ability. Through copy abilities, Kirby can actually become a ton better if he's fighting against a character with a good neutral B. For example, as outrageous as it may sound, Monado Art Kirby, in my opinion, is the best character in the game, as the arts basically negate a majority, if not all, of Kirby's main weaknesses and allow his strengths to really shine. However, the only way to get that ability in tournament play is to play against a Shulk main (or team with one), sooo... Kirby is an example of a character that, with one change, would skyrocket into the higher tiers. If Kirby had good mobility (and maybe a less laggy dash attack), he would be high tier at least. Unfortunately, though. His poor mobility confines him to the lower tiers yet again. I'll never get why they nerfed him from Brawl...

Dr. Mario: Doc is the best character in this tier without question. Does that mean I think he should move up into the lower mid tier? Absolutely not. Doc is and will always be held back by three major things. One, his mobility is bad. Mobility is a VERY important thing in not just the Smash 4 metagame, but in Smash in general. You don't need amazing mobility to be good (ex. Brawl Snake is top tier) and having good mobility doesn't guarantee you a spot as one of the best in the game (ex. Brawl Sonic was mid-tier). However, nearly all of the top tiers have above average mobility at least. The worst mobility in the top tier of Smash 4 is probably Rosalina, who still has a very slightly above average dashing and air speed. Mobility contributes to a good combo game because you can get places faster to continue hitting your opponent. Doc's mobility is below average at best. While his combo game is surprisingly decent, especially for a character that's this low down on the tier list, his lack of mobility absolutely hinders the potential his combo game would have if he were faster. Second, his recovery sucks. It's not as bad as say Roy or Ganon, but it's pretty far down there. In a game where most characters can go extremely deep and get back no problem, this is an extreme problem for Doc. You can just fight him like Cloud where you simply throw him offstage, hit him, and watch as he falls to his death. Unlike Cloud, however, Doc doesn't have anything that makes Cloud a good character, meaning it's significantly easier to get Doc in a position where you can do this. Finally, is the biggest reason why Doc isn't and will never be a good character: Mario exists. Why would anybody who is playing Smash to win think about choosing Doc as their main when Mario exists? Mario can do everything Doc can and much, much more. His mobility is significantly better and shows the potential Doc's combo game would have if the good doctor weren't so slow. His recovery, while not the best in the game, is actually surprisingly difficult to edgeguard and is LEAGUES ahead of Doc's. The only thing Doc arguably has over Mario is a better Down B, but Mario Tornado isn't worth giving up mobility, one of the best combo abilities in the entire game, a decent recovery, etc. Doc is simply a worse Mario and, when Mario is easier to play and one of the best characters in the game, that definitely doesn't spell a good future for Doc. However, despite all of this, Doc still is the best low tier without question. His frame data and combo game are godly for a low tier and he can handle any character below him pretty well. It's when you start going up that he starts having a lot of trouble. Though, he still has a little niche of his own as a counterpick in certain matchups.


Note: None of these statements are written with the intent of offending mains of these characters. I'm just trying to say it how it is. If you want to play one of these characters, then, by all means, play them! I more than respect your devotion to your character and commend you for continuing to remain loyal to them, despite them not being an optimal pick in the current metagame.
 
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L9999

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Low tier: :4samus::4feroy::4charizard::4miigun::4drmario::4wiifit::4kirby::4falco::4bowserjr:

No moving.

Reasonings:

:4samus: has a lot good performances under her belt and also a lot of very good tools like Charge Shot, gimping killer Nair, Zair, Dash Attack, Up B, Uair, etc. Her MU spread isn't terrible either. And for all of those who naysay Charge Shot and Missiles. Missiles are not intended to hit (as stupid as it sounds), they are meant to condition. Conditioning makes opponents predictable and open opportunities to get Charge Shot or Samus' laggy grab. Charge Shot is not thrown out like the usual jackasses do, it is a pressuring tool. Ftilt true combos into it. The "everything stops Charge Shot" argument doesn't apply in a real duel where pressure and heavy thinking is involved. It of course can be stopped, but it isn't braindead as people and those propaganda videos say.

:4feroy: has a lot of good tools at his disposal. A very good jab, killer Side Tilt, good ground mobility, very good Nair, good up close pressure, a good grab with a lot of mixups including ones that kill, Side B, combo Fair, and a lot of killer tech chasing opportunities. And yes, Roy has sourspots, but that doesn't take away the disjoint like many people say it does, and some of the sourspots are useful for techchasing. Where Roy falls apart is his disadvantage (which is bad) and his recovery has very few mixups. I still think Roy has too many good qualities to be considered trash. And for the love of what is good, stop comparing :4feroy: with :4falcon:, they play NOTHING alike. Watch real Roy players like Hyper and Ryo to know how Roy plays instead of FG donkeys.

:4charizard:On his own right and throwing those two fatsos out of the equation Charizard has things going for him. His mobility is usable, he has good jab, aerials, tilts, very good Up Smash, good throws, OK recovery, free 2 frames with Down Smash and Flamethrower, and Charizard's survivablity allows some nasty rage tanking. However Charizard is still too slow at times and can get pressured super hard. And while rage can help him get comebacks, Charizard doesn't have any safe or guaranteed mid % killers to establish his presence fast and simple.

:4miigun:Mii Gunner is underappreciated in my opinion. One thing Gunner has going for it is that it actually has a neutral. Most garbage characters can't claim that, and Gunner has that with Fair, Charge Blast, and Flame Pillar. Flame Pillar is also a noteworthy thing Gunner has, as it 2 frames for free and it isn't too laggy so it can be used up close. Its tilts, aerials, and grab aren't too bad either. The one thing that bites Gunner is that its recovery is bad and KOing becomes a problem as Charge Blast isn't very strong and its Smashes are very easy to DI.

:4drmario:Dr. Mario has a lot of good stuff, but nothing he does really matters when :4mario:exist. Unlike certain pair of clones (:4marth::4lucina:) the gap is huge. Doc's mobility is garbage, his recovery is easy to gimp, and his lack of range is just the icing on the cake. Unlike other short ranged characters (:4ness::4luigi::4pikachu:) Dr. Mario has nothing explosive going for him to get comebacks or avoid being lamed out. And with his best main out flat out saying "Play Mario, Doc sucks" there is no future for Doc left.

:4wiifit:Has camping tools. But nothing else. Her range is trash, Sun Salutation is only good with rage Deep Breath and Deep Breath sucks, her grab game is bad, and her recovery is exploitable. Her ledge camping is no longer good due to the increased skill on frame trapping and 2 framing. WFT's results were never good and she is losing players every day. Perfect for low tier.

:4kirby: is garbage. What if he has "good" MUs against 2 or 3 top tiers? He loses to almost everyone else. Kirby's mobility is terrible and his range is just as bad, so laming out Kirby isn't hard at all. And while Kirby has an explosive combo game, it is worthless if Kirby can't reach its opponents. On top of that Kirby is super light, so rage bites him super hard.

:4falco: There are many common themes in Smash 4 low tiers: Bad mobility, bad range, bad recovery, or bad disadvantage state. Falco has ALL of those problems. He has nothing to compliment his good throws and advantage state, so he will forever be stuck in low tier, and IMO one of the worst.

:4bowserjr:If it wasn't for his decent combo potential and fully disjointed moveset Bowser Jr would be sitting in garbage tier. MU experience makes most of Bowser Jr's trapping game worthless, on top of being a fatty sandbag, having no grab to deal with shields, and having an exploitable recovery.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Apologies for the stalling, but it's looking like tomorrow will be the day for the update. I am away today and won't be back until tomorrow.

If I'm not updating sometime tomorrow (which I promise I will), feel free to give me some abuse. Sorry!
 

Bowserboy3

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UPDATED! :)

No character really deserved to move that time. I decided not to move Samus up that round, even though she had more upvotes than the other characters that were also included. Her overall average placement was well above Kirby's too (1.9 over 3.2), but I still decided to leave her at the top of Low Tier.

While Gunner had the most down votes, she didn't actually average out at the bottom funnily enough.

And of note, Charizard and Wii Fit averaged out at exactly the same score! For this reason, I have now included comma's in the tier list, to help symbolise spaces. This allowed me to put a forward slash between Charizard and Wii Fit to better symbolise their equal position.

Remember, equal positions on a tier list is not unheard of - Duck Hunt and Little Mac were tied on the first official Smash 4 Tier List, and ironically, Wii Fit is tied with Bowser Jr on the current one.

Anyway, with that, onto the Mid (-) Tier...

With the naming phase out of the way, we can focus on each individual tier. In these rounds, we go one tier at a time and settle on a proper order for the characters.

What's more, during these rounds, you can even vote to move ONE character Up or Down a tier (new tiers will not be created at the top or the bottom).

With Low Tier voted and locked, we can move onto the Mid (-) Tier; essentially, the Lower Mid Tier:

Mid Tier (-)::4gaw::4shulk::4littlemac::4pacman::4wario2::4palutena::4duckhunt:

Your vote can be these characters in whatever order you like. For example, you can have Wario at the top, the 2nd place, the last place, wherever you like. Just be sure not to add or remove characters in this tier.

As an example, here is my personal vote.

Mid Tier (-): :4pacman::4wario2::4palutena::4gaw::4littlemac::4shulk::4duckhunt:

As I don't feel any character deserves to move up or down in the tier list, I haven't voted that way. However, if I thought Palutena should move up, for example, I'd place her at the top of the tier, and add a "+:4palutena:" underneath my ordering.

The character with the a noticeable amount of + or - votes will move up or down to the next tier. However, they cannot be voted upon in the next round, and will be left in a set of brackets to symbolise this: ( ).

Top Tier::4diddy:,:4sheik:,:4fox:,:4bayonetta:,:4sonic:,:rosalina:,:4mario:,:4cloud:,:4mewtwo:,:4zss:
High Tier::4marth:,:4metaknight:,:4villager:,:4greninja:,:4megaman:,:4ryu:,:4tlink:,:4pikachu:
Mid Tier (+)::4corrin:,:4lucina:,:4falcon:,:4lucario:,:4ness:,:4pit:,:4darkpit:,:4lucas:,:4peach:
Mid Tier::4yoshi:,:4robinm:,:4myfriends:,:4luigi:,:4olimar:,:4dk:,:4rob:,:4bowser:,:4link:
Mid Tier (-)::4gaw:,:4shulk:,:4littlemac:,:4pacman:,:4wario2:,:4palutena:,:4duckhunt:
Low Tier [LOCKED]::4samus:,:4kirby:,:4feroy:,:4drmario:,:4charizard:/:4wiifit:,:4bowserjr:,:4miigun:,:4falco:
Bottom Tier [LOCKED]::4dedede:,:4zelda:,:4ganondorf:,:4jigglypuff:,:4miisword:,:4miibrawl:

My vote for this round:

Mid Tier (-)::4wario2::4pacman::4palutena::4gaw::4littlemac::4shulk::4duckhunt:
+1:4wario2:
 
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Nidtendofreak

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:4wario::4gaw::4palutena::4littlemac::4duckhunt::4pacman::4shulk:

+:4wario2:

Wario's results are noticeably better than the rest of this tier's and fits into the results of the tier above.

Shulk is mad overrated by a number of people. Results back that statement up, they are very much middle of the pack... for the tier below this one. Yes some results he's bringing in now are somewhat impressive. But we've seen that happen with Palutena before (now dropping down) and Pac-Man before (really down now). All of the characters in this tier really have had that happen one way or another. Because of that, Shulk's rather recent spike is nothing special. End of the day, his frame data holds him back, Arts can't fix it, if Wario's results weren't a noticeable notch up I'd say Shulk should be moved down.
 

Wintermelon43

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:4pacman::4duckhunt::4gaw::4shulk::4wario::4palutena::4littlemac:(How the heck did he even get into this tier???)

Not sure yet if I'm gonna vote Pac-Man up or Little Mac down

Something interesting about this tier is that Genesis 3 could very easily change this tier, with You3, Brood, and Raito (:4duckhunt:), Sinji (:4pacman:), and Regi (:4gaw:) all going to Genesis 3. Any one of them could perform really good, and up the opinions of their character.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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:4shulk::4wario::4duckhunt::4pacman::4gaw::4palutena::4littlemac:
+1 :4shulk: Kome won a Japanese tournament and places high in many of them, having a positive record over most notably Shuton. This combined with the efforts of his other players like Nicko, TremendoDude, and even MKLeo is more than any other character here. (I would upvote Wario as well if I had two votes, Gluttony and Reflex are doing really well with him.)

I can understand why Samus stayed in low tier based on the results, but the way he worded it sounded like there was no good reason to stay and a couple of good reasons for her to rise, and he just randomly chose to keep her low tier.

EDIT: Moved Duck Hunt above Pac-Man because of Genesis 3.9.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Speaking of which, I still don't understand why Samus didn't move up last round. You even admitted to her having a much higher average vote and more upvotes than all the other characters in the tier, so why did she stay? Yes, she would stay in the same numerical placement, but I (and clearly the majority) feel like she fits Lower Mid Tier more than Low Tier.
Out of 21 votes, 4 people voted for her to move up and 17 did not (assuming I've counted correctly). 4 votes is not enough at this point, in my opinion.
 

MarioManTAW

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:4pacman::4duckhunt::4gaw::4shulk::4wario::4palutena::4littlemac:(How the heck did he even get into this tier???)

Not sure yet if I'm gonna vote Pac-Man up or Little Mac down

Something interesting about this tier is that Genesis 3 could very easily change this tier, with You3, Brood, and Raito (:4duckhunt:), Sinji (:4pacman:), and Regi (:4gaw:) all going to Genesis 3. Any one of them could perform really good, and up the opinions of their character.
Genesis 4?

:4littlemac::4gaw::4duckhunt::4shulk::4palutena::4pacman::4wario2:
 
D

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:4shulk::4wario::4pacman::4duckhunt::4gaw::4palutena::4littlemac:
+1 :4shulk: Through Kome, he has won a large Japanese tournament over most notably Shuton, a larger feat than any other character here. (I would upvote Wario as well if I had two votes.)

The rest of the characters are all pretty close, and a significant level higher than all of Low Tier except Samus.

Speaking of which, I still don't understand why Samus didn't move up last round. You even admitted to her having a much higher average vote and more upvotes than all the other characters in the tier, so why did she stay? Yes, she would stay in the same numerical placement, but I (and clearly the majority) feel like she fits Lower Mid Tier more than Low Tier.
KIT Festival wasn't large. It had 49 entrants. Him having a positive record over Shuton is definitely impressive though (he beat him again at Hirosuma Tokaigi Qualifiers).
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Out of 21 votes, 4 people voted for her to move up and 17 did not (assuming I've counted correctly). 4 votes is not enough at this point, in my opinion.
I guess my want for Samus to move up blinded me from the other votes, but yes, you're right. I mostly said that because the way he worded Samus's placement in his update post sounded like he randomly kept her in Low Tier for no reason.
 

QualityQ

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Not surprising low tier was such a mix-up. I think with less results/more localized results, lower tiers can tend to be more opinionated. This round might be more agreed upon.

Mid Tier (-): :4wario2::4pacman::4duckhunt::4gaw::4shulk::4palutena::4littlemac:

-1 :4littlemac:

I'll lead the bring-mac-down group. Against proper play, Mac should always lose on DH, forcing a ban and giving his opponent their best stage. Even 4-platform camping works well against Mac. He has a losing matchup to every character in this tier, has an inferior one-hit kill, and an awful recovery that can be exploited through offstage throws. He is too weak to be in this tier, and is more comparable to the characters in the tier below.

Wario: Wario has a very unusual combination of few representatives, but great results. 5th at Smash the Record, 17th at CEO 2016, and 3rd in smashdown world is great, especially when compared to others in this tier. Wario also benefits alot from 3-stock over 2-stock, although 2-stock is still more common. He has a good combination of aerials and his fart is a much better win condition than Mac's or G&W's 9-hammers. The bike can also be used to extend hitboxes, which is very powerful. His cons come from projectile vulnerability, very slow run speed, and lots of awful frame data (no bonus for pivot grabs). I could see him moving up if Mac weren't in this tier.

Pac: Pac has results through Sinji and Tea; the idea of Pac results declining is mostly based off of Abadango alone and isn't really justified. In fact, Pac's gameplan can negate most of his weakest characteristics. As a trap/zone character, Pac's goal is to maintain a safe distance, push projectile spam, and provide enough mix-ups to stagger the opponent. This is done through hydrant, fruit, and trampoline, all of which are excellent moves with multiple options. Hence, Pac's grab is irrelevant because as a zoning character he doesn't use it. Overall, Pac is a powerful and under-appreciated combo character.

DHD: Duck Hunt, although nearly nonexistant in the US, has some good results in Japan; unfortunately carry-overs between the US and Japan have not been kind to him. He has a similar zoning game with frisbee and gunman, in addition to the powerful can. Unfortunately, this tends to be an inferior version of Pac's zoning due to poor shield damage and much more "flat" play; has difficulty with platforms when not in advantage. Overall similar to Pac, but a weaker version in my opinion.

G&W: Game and Watch quietly collects reasonable results, both at low and high level. 9 Hammer is simply the best one-hit KO in the game, in that it can be set-up, comes out very fast and has a 1/9 chance of instantly ending a stock. Unlike other one-hit KO options, G&W can usually get at least one off in a best-of-three two stock, making it a real threat. Although toot toot is not a reliable combo, it can also be surprisingly powerful. G&W's big weakness is from weight, as G&W is usually killed before he can use rage effectively. Overall, good mobility, reasonable options and great recovery support his high-risk, high-reward playstyle. I can see him moving higher, but currently other characters are much more developed and have comparable results in this tier. Probably the highest chance of being a "sleeper" character in the entire game.

Shulk: Shulk has a number of unique but sub-par tools. At his best, shulk can use shield at high % to propagate an advantage against his opponent. Jump and speed aid recovery and cover some of his weaknesses. A truly risky Shulk can even use smash to play a risky but much more rewarding style of play. Overall, though, a weakness in frame data is very problematic. His approach options are limited. Large hitboxes are paired with painful amounts of lag that can only be useful with a smash-risky style of play. Overall, his results aren't fantastic, but are notable enough to place him above other characters here.

Palu: Despite a victory against Zero's Diddy, Palutena's performance has been increasingly poor. Most notably is 2GGT Zero Saga, where all three top palutena players were incapable of breaking top 48- even when a Mac and G&W player were able to do so. Overall, Palutena's kit has limited usefulness, resulting in mostly a cycle of 6-7 useful moves. This results in very linear play, so any amount of experience or simply carefully observing in best-of-3 should be enough for you to be able to beat her. An awful projectile and bad ground game don't really make up for the usefulness of warp or good air moves. It's easy to see why some Palutena mains seem ready to switch to more flexible characters.

Little Mac: I hate Little Mac with a passion, but I'll try to be neutral here. First, he has an excellent ground game, punishing moves, and greatly benefits from pivots and dash dances. He can make quick work of aggressive opponents, and potentially end stocks early with ko punch. However, modern tournament rules greatly work against him. With DH as a stage, Mac must maintain an advantage at all times or instantly lose. He cannot get to the tree without his up-B, meaning shield -> punish always wins, and the dog-platform can easily be removed with projectiles. Thus, he is forced to ban DH, and give his opponent their best stage every time in a best of 3. I have yet to see any Mac win against a player who uses this technique correctly without a significant skill gap. Although his recovery can be improved with good play, it is also an issue. He also struggles on every platform stage. With this in mind, I have voted to move Mac out of this tier. He is simply too weak compared to other characters in this tier.
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
Low Tier::4drmario::4kirby::4samus::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4charizard::4falco::4feroy::4miigun:
I vote to move down :4miigun: into bottom tier.


Explanations:

Mii Gunner: Why is Mii Gunner in this tier? Seriously, why is Mii Gunner in this tier? I know I'm not going a whole lot off of results, yet, (due to the lack of results in the lower tiers). However, Mii Gunner has absolutely pitiful results. As I probably have mentioned before, that's not entirely the fault of Gunner mains, but the fact still stands that this character has literally no results or notable representation. How could Gunner not be in bottom tier? Besides, it's not like Gunner has anything going for them. They're essentially just a poor man's version of Samus without anything that actually gives Samus potential in the metagame. Despite having good range, their KO moves all lack range or only have a sweetspot close to Gunner. Their grab game is one of the worst in the game. I still think Cloud's is worse, but it's still pretty darn bad. Their recovery may be the best of the Miis, but that's still not saying a lot considering it's still pretty weak in comparison to the rest of the cast. While their over-reliance on projectiles isn't inherently bad, it does make Rosalina, a very dominant character in the metagame, Gunner's worst nightmare to the point where Rosalina vs. Gunner is probably one of the worst matchups in the entire game. Gravitational Pull literally shuts down this character. Now, I know that's a specific example and Gunner is somewhat saved by the fact that, despite Rosalina being one of the best characters in the game, she's still rather uncommon when compared to the amount of mains of other top tiers like Sheik, Diddy, Zamus, and Cloud. But, it's not like Gunner does much better against any of these characters either. When Miis are counted, the three Miis are the worst three characters in the game. Brawler, in my opinion, is the worst of the three while it's really up to debate whether Swordsman is worse than Gunner or Gunner is worse than Swordsman.

Roy: In my opinion, Roy is the worst designed character in this game. In fact, I would be voting to move Roy down into the bottom tier if it weren't for the fact that Mii Gunner is here are their presence in this tier is a significantly more glaring issue than Roy's. Now, why is Roy the worst designed character in the game, you ask? Well, to answer that question, we need to talk about playstyles. Each character is designed with a specific playstyle in mind. Some are quite simple. Captain Falcon, for example, is designed to be an in-your-face, rushdown type character who often has to take high risks to get the highest reward possible. Marth, on the other hand, is designed to be a spacing type character, who, instead of getting up in his opponent's faces, wants to keep them in a position where he can hit them and they can't hit him (hence the tipper mechanic rewarding optimal spacing). However, in order to keep the game fresh and new, the developers sometimes try combining play-styles when creating characters, which is what they tried to do with Roy. Roy is supposed to be a hybrid of a brawler and sword character. However, all he has is the flaws of both without the strengths of either. Roy can't play like Falcon because, as is with most swordsmen, Roy's attacks have too much endlag to grant him a good approach and combo game. However, Roy can't play like Marth either because, as is with most brawlers, Roy's range is absolutely pathetic and he possesses one of the worst ranges in the entire game despite having a sword. On top of all of that, Roy's reverse tipper mechanic actually punishes the player for the most optimal spacing. This creates a problem when people consider maining Roy. People who want a rushdown character aren't going to main him because there's plenty of rushdown brawlers in this game that have plenty of approach and combo options. On the flipside, people who want a sword character aren't going to main him because there's plenty of swordsmen with significantly more range and who don't get punished for spacing their moves right. In my opinion, Roy, in his current state, will never have any significant impact in the metagame. His blend of two drastically different playstyles works so horribly that Roy can't even be played the ways he was intended to! That is just a sign of poor design right there. To be viable, I believe Roy would have to be completely reworked to cater more towards one archetype rather than the ineffective blend he has going on right now. Making Roy a pure rushdown character by giving him autocancels in a short hop and better frame data would make the character significantly better.

Falco: Falco, in my opinion, is the best of the truly bad characters in this game. The ONLY thing Falco has going for him is that his advantage state is actually pretty decent and he can get a lot off of a grab if he manages to get one. However, the problem with that is that Falco's everything else is horrible. His neutral is, without a doubt, one of the worst in the entire game. He has absolutely no way of approaching opponents safely nor does he have something capable of forcing approaches. Therefore, it's kinda hard for Falco to get the grab with his awful neutral. Falco's disadvantage state is also very poor. Being a light, fast faller like Fox, Falco is extremely easy to combo and KO and he lacks any good "get off me" tools. His recovery, while going a good distance, is easily predictable and easy to intercept. It doesn't help that Fire Bird lacks hitboxes while it charges. Falco's specials are all pretty bad. Because it was so strong in Melee and Brawl, Blaster has been nerfed to the point of being virtually unusable. Side B is good for recovery and nothing else. Up B is good for recovery and nothing else. Reflector is good against projectiles I guess, but you're not going to pick Falco because he can deal with projectiles. Anybody who wants a character who can deal with projectiles is running straight to Rosalina. Falco has nothing outside of a decent grab game. Heck, if Falco's grab combos didn't exist, he would be the worst character in the game by a considerable margin without a doubt, in my opinion. They just didn't give Falco anything here and it totally hurts him. While his grab game is pretty good, his awful neutral and awful disadvantage state make it extremely hard to get that grab. In neutral, if the opponent wants him to, Falco is going to have to approach and Falco doesn't have any approach options. So, he's gotta do something crazy that shouldn't work and pray it works. If it doesn't work, he's going to get comboed hard. All of the effort he has to go to in order to get that grab simply isn't worth the just decent reward he gets off of it. Also, try to think of one notable Falco player aside from Keitaro and he doesn't even get results outside of regionals. That's Falco's next to non existent results in a nutshell. Falco is a character that desperately needs a buff. He either needs a reliable way to approach opponents or a way to make them approach him. I'd prefer the latter in order to separate him from Fox. One Star Fox character could play a more rushdown and aggressive neutral while the other could play a more campy and defensive neutral. Make Blaster great again. I'm not saying it has to be like it was in Brawl or Melee, but please make it good enough so that Falco can reliable force approaches with it.

Zard: Poor Zard... The biggest problem with Zard isn't actually anything about him. His biggest problem is the fact that he exists in the same game as Bowser and Donkey Kong, two super heavyweights who can do more than Zard could ever dream of. They lack all of Zard's weaknesses to the same degree he does while, at the same time, having all of his strengths but better. Zard's mobility is good, but so is Bowser and DK's. Zard's power is decent, but Bowser and DK's moves are bigger, faster, and stronger, too. (I'm so sorry. I had to include that.) Zard has an okay grab game, but Bowser and DK have two of the best grab games in the entire game with the Ding Dong and Bowser's Up Throw to Aerial. Zard also lacks things like a good OOS game that these two have. As a result, Zard falls in an unfortunate spot. Due to being significantly worse than fellow super heavyweights, Bowser and DK, why would somebody who is playing this game competitively main Charizard? There's two, much better super heavyweights to use. Donkey Kong is around mid-tier while many believe Bowser is mid-tier at least and has the potential to climb into the high tiers. Now, Zard still has a few perks that make him significantly better than Ganon and Dedede. His mobility is good and he has both a combo throw in down throw and a kill throw in up throw (which happens to be the strongest up throw in the game). On top of all of that, Zard actually has some degree of results, which proves that, despite being this far down on the tier list, he still is viable to an extent. However, as I started this paragraph with, when it comes to super heavyweights, there's not just one, but two significantly better and more viable options available to use and that really makes people ignore Zard. Overall, Zard is a character whose weaknesses tend to be more prevalent than his strengths. However, like many other characters down here, you can't count Zard out and a good Zard is still capable of competing (to an extent).

Wii Fit Trainer: Wii Fit is just a weird character and not in a good way. First of all, her hitboxes. Wii Fit Trainer's hitboxes are very awkward and poor. Unlike most characters, it's a chore simply to hit with her attacks. This is because her hitboxes lack range and are very thin. Due to the awkward positioning of her attacks, it doesn't give her much in terms of a combo game and, because of her poor range, she'll often find herself in situations where her opponents can hit her, but she can't hit them. Her grab game is one of the worst in the entire game. It may not be as bad as Cloud's, but it's pretty bad. All of her grabs have very little range, her pummel is awful, and her throws don't really do anything. Her specials are nothing to write home about. Sun Salutation pales in comparison to some of the better "charge up finisher projectiles" in the game like Shadow Ball and Charge Shot. Header is decent, due to it's weird trajectory and mindgame potential. Super Hoop is a decent recovery move, but has a huge blank spot above Wii Fit Trainer, making her her prone to attacks while using it. Deep Breathing is literally just a crappy Monado Art. It lasts for a mere seven seconds and takes way too long to recharge. Not only that but, even when it is charged, it still takes a bit to use AND you can't do anything during it. It's not like Shulk's Monado Arts where all you have to do is press the B button 1-5 times and can do any other non-B move while the art is activating. On top of all of that, you STILL have to press B at the right time or the move will fail and you'll get stuck in even more lag. Wii Fit has a few positives including her good mobility allowing for a better approach than most low tiers have to offer. Though, they don't compensate for all of the inherent issues with the character. Finally, I know I haven't really been talking about results that much so far (mostly due to the low and bottom tier characters' lack of them), but Wii Fit Trainer has really dropped off in terms of results. After the buffs she received previously, she did see a bit of a surge in results (especially when customs were legal). However, we don't see anything from this character nowadays and that's what puts her here.

Bowser Jr.: Bowser Jr.'s entire metagame was previously carried by one man: Tweek. Through dropping Bowser Jr. for Cloud, Tweek effectively dropped Bowser Jr. into low tier, where he sits today. Bowser Jr. is a mish-mash of poor design choices that counter the positives of the character and really hinder his potential in a competitive environment. His mobility and grab game, two things that are very important for a character to be viable, are both really bad. His mobility is poor without the use of his Side B and his grab is very laggy for how little range it has. Not only that, but landing the grab yields next to no reward because Bowser Jr.'s grabs are awful. Aside from Side B, his specials leave much to be desired. Cannon Ball is a complete joke and is unarguably one of the worst move in the entire game. His Up B covers a good amount of distance, but has the fatal flaw of being unable to be reused if he is hit by a weak attack, making him extremely vulnerable to gimping. Mecha-Koopa can be good as a projectile, but it can just as easily be used against him. He has disjointed range, but his disjoints range from being only okayish to a Roy level of bad. His moveset is also on Shulk's level of lagginess, except with nowhere near as much range as him. Finally, Bowser Jr, as I mentioned before, has REALLY dropped off in terms of results. We never see Jr. doing anything anymore, much like Wii Fit Trainer. Jr. isn't all bad, though. Even if Bowser Jr. isn't as good as we once thought, Tweek has more than proved that, when played to his strengths, Bowser Jr. is still a character that you have to watch out for because he can and will obliterate you if you are careless. In addition to that, Jr. seems to have proven that he still is viable in the metagame as a counterpick, as evident by Jade's upset over Trela way back when. It's not that Jr. is bad as much as it is that other characters are better. He's still viable, but you're going to need other, better characters to back him up if you plan on maining him. If anything, Jr. proves just how balanced Smash 4's roster is. A character this low on the tier list is still quite viable and even deadly in the right hands.

Samus: Kirby and Samus, I'd say, are more or less tied with one another. However, since I have to choose, I think Samus is very slightly worse. In my opinion, she's not quite sure of what she wants to be. Does she want to be a zoner? Or, does she want to be a combo heavy, melee character? While she can zone, her projectiles all have their flaws. Charge Shot, obviously, can simply be shielded or sidestepped and requires a good amount of time to charge. And, when a Samus has one charged, the opponent is aware and ready to react to her firing it. It's extremely difficult to get opponents into a situation where she can fire the Charge Shot and surprise them because they're expecting it. Missiles are still a shell of their Melee selves as they continue to possess a ton of ending lag. Charge Shot is supposed to be her big, strong projectile. Why do Missiles still have a ton of ending lag, too? Samus' usage of her projectiles is very restricting and limited. Think of better zoners like Mega Man and Villager, who have a much greater flexibility with their projectiles that allows them to be used in a variety of different ways compared to Samus, who really doesn't have many options with her projectiles other than to stand there and shoot. In terms of her Melee game, Samus' combo game is surprisingly decent. She has many options to combo such as FAir, UAir, and the deadly Screw Attack. However, there's two problems with this. One, most of her combos come out of her D-Throw, which requires landing her laggy grab to preform. Two, while her combo game is impressive, it's nothing compared to the likes of Sheik, Bayo, Diddy, etc. Point it, if you want a character with combos, Samus is far from your best bet. However, her zoning game just doesn't have the flexibility and versatility of other, better zoners. Though, I will give Samus the benefit of the doubt. She is one of the harder characters in the game to play and, considering the low tier stigma she has, this scares a lot of people away from picking her up. I feel Samus' maximum potential has yet to be reached, especially considering how infamous she tends to be for causing upsets. Maybe a few years down the line, Samus players will manage to gain more mastery of their character and move her up into the mid-tiers. However, until then, Samus is here in my book.

Kirby: Kirby and Samus, I'd say, are more or less tied with one another. However, since I have to choose, I think Kirby is very slightly better. He's a lot like Doc in that he has a good combo game for a low tier, but everything else is pretty meh. If Kirby can start a combo on you, he'll surely tack on a load of percent with up tilts, forward airs, and up airs. However, there's one tiny flaw in that statement: IF Kirby can start a combo on you. Kirby's mobility is poor to say the least. While his dashing speed has been significantly improved from Brawl, it still is merely average at best. His air speed is pretty bad, though. So, we have average at best dashing speed and poor air speed. However, in addition to that, Kirby also has what has to be one of the worst overall ranges in the entire game, due to it being nerfed from Brawl. Despite having pretty solid frame data overall, Kirby's attacks cover so little space that you're never going to hit an opponent unless they're literally in his face. Considering a majority of characters got a buff in their range in transition from Brawl to Smash 4, this is a HUGE problem for Kirby. While he can be very deadly if he can get in on you, the fact that his overall mobility is below average at best AND he has what is arguably the worst overall range in the entire game means that it's extremely easy to wall Kirby out. It's very hard for Kirby to get in against many characters in the cast due to the fact that Kirby has next to no viable approach options. This allows the opponent to completely dominate neutral against Kirby because they can do pretty much whatever they want while Kirby has to worry about getting in and not getting punished, a problem that his kit does not offer an easy solution to. In addition to that, while Kirby can recover from very far away with his multiple jumps and solid recovery move, he's so slow and easy to telegraph that he's actually much easier to edgeguard than one would expect. His grab game is pretty solid though. He has a combo throw in F-Throw, a damage racking throw in D-Throw, and two situational kill throws in B-Throw and U-Throw. Kirby's special moves range from okay to absolutely useless. Hammer and Stone are absolutely useless against any player that's remotely good. Final Cutter is decent as a recovery move, but pitiful as an actual attack. Inhale is, by far, Kirby's best special, considering it allows him access to his famous copy ability. Through copy abilities, Kirby can actually become a ton better if he's fighting against a character with a good neutral B. For example, as outrageous as it may sound, Monado Art Kirby, in my opinion, is the best character in the game, as the arts basically negate a majority, if not all, of Kirby's main weaknesses and allow his strengths to really shine. However, the only way to get that ability in tournament play is to play against a Shulk main (or team with one), sooo... Kirby is an example of a character that, with one change, would skyrocket into the higher tiers. If Kirby had good mobility (and maybe a less laggy dash attack), he would be high tier at least. Unfortunately, though. His poor mobility confines him to the lower tiers yet again. I'll never get why they nerfed him from Brawl...

Dr. Mario: Doc is the best character in this tier without question. Does that mean I think he should move up into the lower mid tier? Absolutely not. Doc is and will always be held back by three major things. One, his mobility is bad. Mobility is a VERY important thing in not just the Smash 4 metagame, but in Smash in general. You don't need amazing mobility to be good (ex. Brawl Snake is top tier) and having good mobility doesn't guarantee you a spot as one of the best in the game (ex. Brawl Sonic was mid-tier). However, nearly all of the top tiers have above average mobility at least. The worst mobility in the top tier of Smash 4 is probably Rosalina, who still has a very slightly above average dashing and air speed. Mobility contributes to a good combo game because you can get places faster to continue hitting your opponent. Doc's mobility is below average at best. While his combo game is surprisingly decent, especially for a character that's this low down on the tier list, his lack of mobility absolutely hinders the potential his combo game would have if he were faster. Second, his recovery sucks. It's not as bad as say Roy or Ganon, but it's pretty far down there. In a game where most characters can go extremely deep and get back no problem, this is an extreme problem for Doc. You can just fight him like Cloud where you simply throw him offstage, hit him, and watch as he falls to his death. Unlike Cloud, however, Doc doesn't have anything that makes Cloud a good character, meaning it's significantly easier to get Doc in a position where you can do this. Finally, is the biggest reason why Doc isn't and will never be a good character: Mario exists. Why would anybody who is playing Smash to win think about choosing Doc as their main when Mario exists? Mario can do everything Doc can and much, much more. His mobility is significantly better and shows the potential Doc's combo game would have if the good doctor weren't so slow. His recovery, while not the best in the game, is actually surprisingly difficult to edgeguard and is LEAGUES ahead of Doc's. The only thing Doc arguably has over Mario is a better Down B, but Mario Tornado isn't worth giving up mobility, one of the best combo abilities in the entire game, a decent recovery, etc. Doc is simply a worse Mario and, when Mario is easier to play and one of the best characters in the game, that definitely doesn't spell a good future for Doc. However, despite all of this, Doc still is the best low tier without question. His frame data and combo game are godly for a low tier and he can handle any character below him pretty well. It's when you start going up that he starts having a lot of trouble. Though, he still has a little niche of his own as a counterpick in certain matchups.


Note: None of these statements are written with the intent of offending mains of these characters. I'm just trying to say it how it is. If you want to play one of these characters, then, by all means, play them! I more than respect your devotion to your character and commend you for continuing to remain loyal to them, despite them not being an optimal pick in the current metagame.
Even though the voting period for Gunner has already passed, I would like to mention that the only things you got right in that entire paragraph was the part about Gunner's recovery and the fact that 1111 Gunner is better than 1111 Brawler. First of all, Gunner has tournament representation from ROM and Flama, and the character gets secondary usage from, Wii Twerk Trainer and CO Mikerz (AEM and Protom also use Mii Gunner in local tournaments in SoCal and the Tristate Area). In Mexico, Gunner is mained by a player that is a strong contender for top 15 in Mexico (Flama), and the character is also being used as a secondary for another player that is power ranked in his region (Mikerz).

As for Gunner's tools, Gunner's neutral game is one of the best in the game if not the best because of an amazing forward aerial (It is a long-ranged, transcendent projectile that is +5 on block at point-blank range, and a move that combos into most of Gunner's moveset and gives Gunner good burst mobility due to Gundashing), a charge blast with pretty low endlag, a decent amount of moves that are difficult to punish on shield when spaced properly (nair, bair, jab, dtilt and pivot ftilt), and a good dash to shield. Gunner's grab is also good because it has good range for its speed, and Gunner has true combos and follow ups from grabs (There is a true combo and follow up thread with this information). Gunner's grab game is also helped by Gunner's amazing ledge trapping with flame pillar (Gunner mains like myself have recently found the spacing for flame pillar at the ledge, and this allows Gunner to rack up a lot of damage from edgeguarding). To top it all off, Gunner also has a reflector that can make it harder for other zoners to play neutral.

While Gunner has killing issues and a lack of reliable kill confirms, Gunner's killing options aren't as bad as you make them out to be. The only KO move that Gunner has with poor range is dtilt, and the only move that Gunner has to space up close to get the sweet spot is up tilt. Gunner can also confirm into charge blast from a weak flame pillar or a missed tech or set up into it from a fair or jab. Jab can also mix up into all of Gunner's killing moves. Gunner can also get some kills from grabs with up throw/down throw to up air follow ups around 100-150% (It is better than a 50-50 with a DI read) or rage up throw at around 160%. Gunner can even confirm into smash attacks from a nair and either a missed tech or spin animation (There is more information about this in the Gunner kill setups and killing options thread).

By the way, a good trait of Gunner is the fact that none of Gunner's matchups are worse than 40-60. Gunner doesn't do nearly as badly as you think against Rosalina and Luma because Gunner's fair has a frame advantage on Gravitational Pull to punish her for using it too much. Gunner doesn't do worse than 40-60 in this matchup, and ROM has beaten Kirihara in a set. Gunner also doesn't do worse than 45-55 in any of the other matchups you mentioned because Gunner controls mid range against them with fair and charge blast. It also helps Gunner that the character's poor recovery is made up for by a small, floaty frame, a frame 3 reflector that can break combos, and some good landing options with Gundashing, stalling with reflector, flame pillar, Lunar Launch (This also includes lunar canceling), nair, and bair.
 
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Routa

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
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Loimaa, Finland
You can call Gunner bottom tier all you want, but when a character can challenge Diddy and Sheik in neutral which very few if no other character can... Well... Is the character bottom tier? And also please stop claiming that Gunner is poor man's Samus. You are making fool of yourself. It would be like calling Luigi a poor man's Doc.
 

jespoke

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
239
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Denmark
NNID
Jespoke
Mid Tier (-): :4wario2::4duckhunt::4shulk::4gaw::4pacman::4littlemac::4palutena:

The order of those last 4 is my least confident point on the entire tier list.
 

L9999

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
2,631
Location
the attic I call Magicant
3DS FC
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:4wario2::4shulk::4duckhunt::4pacman::4littlemac::4palutena::4gaw:

No moving

Reasonings:
:4wario2:Wario is the best character in this tier having the most functional moveset and results. Wario also has rage jank with fart to make comebacks on dire situations. Unfortunately there isn't much else to Wario since his rep is low.

:4shulk:Shulk has flaws that bite him but somehow his playerbase has increased both in quantity and skill, and has pulled a healthy amount of results. Shulk has many good tools at his disposal going for him so that is why I placed him second.

:4duckhunt:It has been preached for ages that DHD is underrated and You3, Brood, and Raito are having a good performance in América, so it is not a Japan gimmick (for now at least). However, DHD has the anathema of not having reliable KO power and being severely disadvantaged if the opponent gets the lead.

:4pacman:While Pac-Man has been on life support for some time due to his low playerbase, Pac-Man has a lot of tools that are better than the 3 characters below. I think this tier is perfect for Pac-Man because MU experience and unreliable kill power really hurts Pac-Man.

:4littlemac:He is not anything spectacular and has major weaknesses, but I find him more solid than the two below due to his great pressure and comeback ability. LM also had a hype season that then crashed, but that is expected from any below average character.

:4palutena:The goddess of mediocrity should never rise from this spot or tier IMO. Her hype is dead and her results crashed and burned harder than Little Mac.

:4gaw:This character is overrated, even more than Palutena. His results went from inconsistent to non existent, GnW has so many flaws he will never rise from this tier.
 
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