Data Smash Ultimate Frame Data Patch 6.0 (Complete)

J0eyboi

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#41
Unless I'm missing something big somehow, you don't seem to have the frame data for either of Ken's kick specials (41236+A and 632+A) in the spreadsheet.
 
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#42
Unless I'm missing something big somehow, you don't seem to have the frame data for either of Ken's kick specials (41236+A and 632+A) in the spreadsheet.
I had Nata Otoshi Geri, I had heard there were two, but I just assumed people were mistakenly counting the axe kick followup as the second. But yeah, here it is, the Oosoto Mawashi Geri. I put them under jab since I didn't think they qualified as "specials" when you couldn't perform them in the air. A lot of Ken/Ryu's moves don't qualify under Smash naming conventions so formatting always feels unclear in which move is being referred to. I will add this second move.
 
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#43
The 1v1 damage bonus seems to be the very last modification made, and is done on the receiving end of the player. Other damage-able entities (like say DH Gunmen) take standard, non-increased damage.
To add to this, it seems Counters and absorbing moves like Oil Panic and PSI Magnet also don't factor in the 1 v 1 multiplier when countering and absorbing, respectively.
 
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Thinkaman

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#44
To add to this, it seems Counters and absorbing moves like Oil Panic and PSI Magnet also don't factor in the 1 v 1 multiplier when countering and absorbing, respectively.
I would expect the multiplier not be applied (ultimately twice) on Oil Panic, but it's half-surprising that it doesn't work on PSI Magnet. (I just confirmed this.)

This probably ought to be viewed as an oversight/bug.
 

Big O

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#45
I would expect the multiplier not be applied (ultimately twice) on Oil Panic, but it's half-surprising that it doesn't work on PSI Magnet. (I just confirmed this.)

This probably ought to be viewed as an oversight/bug.
I doubt it is a bug since the 1v1 damage multiplier behaves much more like a penalty for the defender than an actual boost on the attack (think non-Shulk attacking Shulk with Buster Art). There's hardly anything the 1v1 damage multiplier affects that normally scales with damage.

The only things that do are like Incineroar's Revenge and K Rool's Belly Armor. They scale based on damage taken while actually getting hurt in the process (enabling the penalty to kick in), so the multiplier does affect them.
 
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#46
Hey everyone, I decided to manually test and write up the frame data for all the characters in the game. I did what I could to get some data from footage of the E3 demo, but having the game in my hands allows me to get more data, and in more accurate ways. This game actually has some new features to make the process far quicker than in Smash 4. All of the data was collected from version 1.1. The goal of having these charts so early was to be prepared for the first balance patch. Smash 4's lack of patch notes really had us struggling for the first few months because nobody had the numbers to compare to until about a year after release.

Please let me know if you have any questions or want clarifications. Also you are free to use or repurpose this data as you like. No need to ask first. Of course I will also add new charts for any newly released characters.
I dont see the section for the characters data where there advantage. Unless my mobile device is not showing it
 
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#47
Okay, the charts for Patch 2.0 are up. They include all changes from the update and yes I measured the plant. You'll notice the title says "WIP", that's because I am reformatting existing charts to remove the "Changes from Smash 4" column. Because I no longer think that's relevant moving forward, and it takes up too much space. When that formatting is done, the title of the charts and this thread will say "Complete". All versions of the charts will have links to each other moving forward on the Glossary chart and in the OP of this thread.

I dont see the section for the characters data where there advantage. Unless my mobile device is not showing it
My charts do contain block advantage but that is still a slow work in progress since I only occasionally do that in my spare time now. As of this writing Mario through Captain Falcon have that information.
 

GameQ

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#48
Okay, the charts for Patch 2.0 are up. They include all changes from the update and yes I measured the plant. You'll notice the title says "WIP", that's because I am reformatting existing charts to remove the "Changes from Smash 4" column. Because I no longer think that's relevant moving forward, and it takes up too much space. When that formatting is done, the title of the charts and this thread will say "Complete". All versions of the charts will have links to each other moving forward on the Glossary chart and in the OP of this thread.


My charts do contain block advantage but that is still a slow work in progress since I only occasionally do that in my spare time now. As of this writing Mario through Captain Falcon have that information.
Thanks for all the hard work! Will you accept data from the community so we can crowd source this data and have it finished quickly and take some of the load off of you shoulders? If you have a specific methodology to test advantage and stuns, post it here for other to follow and help out.
 

Shieldlesscap

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#49
Thanks for all the hard work! Will you accept data from the community so we can crowd source this data and have it finished quickly and take some of the load off of you shoulders? If you have a specific methodology to test advantage and stuns, post it here for other to follow and help out.
One quick note about Falcon, but if you position it correctly, his aerial Side B can hit a shield and then cancel on a slope, effectively making it +2 on shield.
 
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#50
Thanks for all the hard work! Will you accept data from the community so we can crowd source this data and have it finished quickly and take some of the load off of you shoulders? If you have a specific methodology to test advantage and stuns, post it here for other to follow and help out.
Sorry for the late reply, I have been swamped with work lately. I just used frame advance in training mode to count out everything. It's easy but also very time consuming. And yes I do accept data and corrections from the community. I've already received some corrections in the first page of this thread, and when I get them I always check for myself whether the information is accurate.

Doing autocancel windows was on my to-do list, but Masonomace Masonomace has taken it upon himself to gather all the autocancel windows in the game through manual testing as I would have done and I know he has plenty of experience in doing this sort of work. He has allowed me to put it in the charts. He also insists I thank the various character discords and users he has corresponded with to help confirm numbers.
 
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Rayman001

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#51
Thanks for all of this, but I think I found a mistake: Pichu's down throw has 46 total frames, not 39.
 
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#52
Hey thanks a lot for this, it's very useful ! You know i began competitive playing recently, and i feel like what i miss is knowing frame data and others system knowledge so your document help me a lot here. I tried seeing myself your results with Ness and i understand now how frames really work (though i didn't understand why D-Smash has like four different hitboxes ?)

Actually i don't know if pummels interest you, but i tested Ness' ones and startup is 1 while total frames is 20 (before another pummel). Base damage is 1.5%.
 

Rayman001

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#53
Hey thanks a lot for this, it's very useful ! You know i began competitive playing recently, and i feel like what i miss is knowing frame data and others system knowledge so your document help me a lot here. I tried seeing myself your results with Ness and i understand now how frames really work (though i didn't understand why D-Smash has like four different hitboxes ?)

Actually i don't know if pummels interest you, but i tested Ness' ones and startup is 1 while total frames is 20 (before another pummel). Base damage is 1.5%.
Base damage is actually 1.3%, not 1.5%. It seems you tested it with just 1 CPU, which causes the 1v1 damage buff to be active.
 
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#54
Sorry for the lapse in updates lately. Midterms are rough. And I know the next update is probably coming in the next couple weeks. I should also mention Masonomace Masonomace has agreed to help me with shield stats for Lucario and I had him reserve more characters so our work doesn't overlap, hence why it may seem like some such as ganondorf have been skipped over in this department. Another thing that interests me is Kirby's copy abilities, which will be a separate sheet next to Kirby when I get around to it. Kirby's copy abilities had a tendency to go undocumented in past games, so I want to make sure I discover the minute differences early. Whenever a neutral B gets tweaked in a patch, it's hit or miss on whether Kirby's version also gets patched.

Actually i don't know if pummels interest you,
Pummels DO interest me, and I have been adding them lately. I'm also counting specifically how many hitlag frames there are, becuase unlike the hitlag in a throw, I find that information very pertinent, since the game will still read the victim's mashing inputs during hitlag.

Thanks for all of this, but I think I found a mistake: Pichu's down throw has 46 total frames, not 39.
I don't count hitlag on throws, which explains the discrepancy here.
 

Rayman001

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#55
Sorry for the lapse in updates lately. Midterms are rough. And I know the next update is probably coming in the next couple weeks. I should also mention Masonomace Masonomace has agreed to help me with shield stats for Lucario and I had him reserve more characters so our work doesn't overlap, hence why it may seem like some such as ganondorf have been skipped over in this department. Another thing that interests me is Kirby's copy abilities, which will be a separate sheet next to Kirby when I get around to it. Kirby's copy abilities had a tendency to go undocumented in past games, so I want to make sure I discover the minute differences early. Whenever a neutral B gets tweaked in a patch, it's hit or miss on whether Kirby's version also gets patched.



Pummels DO interest me, and I have been adding them lately. I'm also counting specifically how many hitlag frames there are, becuase unlike the hitlag in a throw, I find that information very pertinent, since the game will still read the victim's mashing inputs during hitlag.



I don't count hitlag on throws, which explains the discrepancy here.
I find hitlag in throws to be very important, because it influences how much frame advantage you have after the throw. If there was no hitlag on Pichu's dthrow for example, he would have 7 frames more frame advantage which would mean he could combo off it longer.
 
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#56
I find hitlag in throws to be very important, because it influences how much frame advantage you have after the throw. If there was no hitlag on Pichu's dthrow for example, he would have 7 frames more frame advantage which would mean he could combo off it longer.
When a throw releases the victim, there's no hitlag. I'm talking about any hits that occur before the victim is released. Those have hitlag. When Pichu sits on the victim with Dthrow, it deals 4.0 damage and some hitlag. When the victim is released from the throw, it deals an additional 4.0, but with no hitlag.

Sometimes throws also have additional hitlag programmed in, even when no damage is being dealt. I think if you looked at the game's code, it is registering a hit, but at 0.0 damage, I don't bother taking note of those instances either. There's a lot of theoretically correct ways to count a throw's data if you wanted to treat it differently than other attacks, but all of them should end up with the same endlag, which is all that matters.
 
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MetalMusicMan

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#58
Hey, awesome work on all of this! I've been using this as a primary reference for https://ultimateframedata.com and wasn't sure where the Google Sheet had come from! I'll add you to the credits -- thanks for all of this huge amount of work. It took me ages just to type it, I can't imagine how long it has taken you to farm it all out haha <3

Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't see advantage or damage for Incineroar in the sheet :( No rush! Just a heads-up.
 
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#59
Patch 3.1 is finished. I decided from now on I should just make a copy of each update before editing the information. All my patch updates have links to each other, but by sticking to the same URL, readers won't have to save a new URL for each patch.

Hey, awesome work on all of this! I've been using this as a primary reference for https://ultimateframedata.com and wasn't sure where the Google Sheet had come from! I'll add you to the credits -- thanks for all of this huge amount of work. It took me ages just to type it, I can't imagine how long it has taken you to farm it all out haha <3
According to my Switch I have 435 hours on record and my left joy con control stick seems irreparably damaged since I didn't want all the wear on controllers I actually like. Joke's on me, Joy Cons cost 80 dollars a pair. Yikes.

Let me know in this thread if you have any questions or concerns regarding the data.
 

HyperTheHedgehog

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#60
Ike's aether: "Landing hit on frame 1. Super armor on frame 5-35. (ending the frame he ascends).
Super armor on frame 15-35 for the air version "

What does 'Landing hit on frame 1' mean
 
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#61
Ike's aether: "Landing hit on frame 1. Super armor on frame 5-35. (ending the frame he ascends).
Super armor on frame 15-35 for the air version "

What does 'Landing hit on frame 1' mean
It means the hitbox that comes out when Ike lands with aether occurs the very frame that he lands. That's typically the case of any move with a landing hit, but sometimes there's some variation and it helps to have a reminder anyway when calculating how much endlag or block advantage a move has.
 

Rayman001

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#62
Question: Can you make the docs for version 3.0 and 3.1 public? It's currently impossible to view them
 

Willingo

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#65
What is the reasoning behind the "base damage" being the damage with 4 people in the game? In a typical 1v1, the damage is 1.2 times the reported values in the sheet. Isn't that misleading? I understand not having staleness/freshness, but why doesn't "base damage" refer to 1v1?
 
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#67
What is the reasoning behind the "base damage" being the damage with 4 people in the game? In a typical 1v1, the damage is 1.2 times the reported values in the sheet. Isn't that misleading? I understand not having staleness/freshness, but why doesn't "base damage" refer to 1v1?
Short answer: We've done it this way for decades due to the existence of move staling, and changing it now would confuse more people than it would feasibly help.

Long answer: Base damage is the actual damage the game engine is working with. Not every match is singles, and it's no secret that the 1v1 multiplier exists, so I think it's the opposite of misleading. In practice, the multiplier doesn't affect armor thresholds or even knockback. So if you have a move that armors incoming attacks dealing 10% damage or less, and the damage values I had on my charts all had a 1.2x boost, that would actually be misleading. Plus the numbers just look more even and nicer to work with. It's like choosing the metric system over inches and feet, much more scientifically viable and readilly understood.
 
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#71
Fox F Air is listed as 43 total frames but the note says, "auto cancels on frame 46 onward" -- guessing that's a typo?
Sorry for the late reply but if you're asking whether a move's autocancel window can exceed the total frames, that is normal. Though very uncommon in Ultimate. The only other example off the top of my head is Ridley's Fair. A popular Smash 4 example is how Roy's F-air wouldn't autocancel from a short hop but players could double jump to avoid landing lag. Though that particular example was adjusted for this game. This sort of oversight used to be common in Smash but progressively less so up until Ultimate to a point where it almost never matters.

Incidentally, Fox's Fair may have been a typo, as I just found it autocancels on frame 45 onward rather than 46 so thank you for bringing this to my attention.

By the way the user Masonomace Masonomace who discovered most of the autocancel windows for the roster back in February has recently been discovering ledge grab windows for all recovery moves which I will add to my charts once I have more than a spare moment. Those are very tricky and time consuming to find so I'd like to thank him for helping to do something I never bothered to do.
 

Masonomace

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#72
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