Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Nethermoosen]

Fine, I admit I don't agree with it, but I'd like you to read this on why the theory is dumb and I believe that TC. Again, it's not mine.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77004278

May be true. Still doesn’t prove it one way or the other.

It doesn’t matter what could be possible. It only matters what is. Potential doesn’t trump facts. And we just don’t have all the facts yet.

 

[Pakky]

Goku for smash

For smash

 

[vaanrose]

Honest question for everybody.

Do you think the guy who drew the mural knows the full roster?

 

[Noipoi]

I wonder if they'll reveal a Smash newcomer, even. I mean, it's very possible, but I wouldn't expect anything more than them mentioning Gen 8 or something.

I'd expect less than that. Gamefreak doesn't mention new games until their current game releases.
Especially in this case where Let's go Pikachu/Eevee would be overshadowed by Gen 8, which is guaranteed to be bigger and better.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

if any character was a mewtwo reveal, I would assume they would be pretty last minute. I think people forgot the sheer chaos that was caused by no mewtwo in smash 4, even before he wasn't confirmed to be in launch people were ****ing going ape over seeing lucario in smash 4. That announcent was probably a last minute thing to make people chill the hell out.

I know verge said square enix yada yada, but if Sakurai saw a character not be announced, go "oh god" and decide to do a similar last minute addtion in dlc, wouldn't that be Skull Kid or even Waluigi, the Waluigi garbage hit like national news and forced a response from reggie, I would be surprised if the last minute DLC request character would be Geno over those 2.

I mean, the SE character could be DLC and like, erdrick still, but Mewtwo seemed to be a special case in response to the community going buck wild, i imagine if we get a pre release DLC announcement, it would be a similar case.

Not just to your point but to all of the "Sakurai wouldn't create a dlc character during base development". This is something we've with several recent Switch games.

ARMS had Max Brass ready to be played at E3 2017, but instead was released in July. Mario Aces had almost every (if not all) of the dlc characters ready at launch, but instead they were held off for months.

Its something Nintendo has done more recently, now that they are way more dlc friendly, and I could definitely see them announcing a new dlc character that will be ready close to launch. Just saying it's a possibility and doesn't go against what Nintendo has done.

Edit: Just realized I didn't quote anyone lol

Honest question for everybody.

Do you think the guy who drew the mural knows the full roster?

Yes. It goes back to my point with the cgi trailers. There are people in, and even outside Nintendo, who know the whole roster. It's not like Sakurai and a select few know, especially this far into development and nearing the games release.

 

[Michele]

Honest question for everybody.

Do you think the guy who drew the mural knows the full roster?

Yes, it's likely that he or she knows the full roster.

 

[MrPowerfulJeans]

So, does anyone think there will be a Pokemon Direct anytime soon? I'm thinking of when they would reveal a Pokemon newcomer for Smash, but would they have a Direct for Let's Go?

Ehh... A bit too early, IMO... I think they'll save the Pokemon Direct somewhere early in 2019 to reveal Generation 8 and build that game's hype.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Honestly, Not in my shoes, But for other people I can see this being the final 2 Newcomers, not sure why so many people don’t like it

Well what is odd about it is that they make this whole concept of Echo fighters and there are only 7 of them out of 70, especially when a game like Melee had a higher percentage of clones. Not only that, but the 1 and final echo is a 3rd party character, a little odd.

Again, you can chalk the whole box thing as anything. It may be right. It may be wrong. But it does have its oddities if these were the final 2 characters.

 

[Luigi The President]

Honest question for everybody.

Do you think the guy who drew the mural knows the full roster?

This is a good question.

I think that he may simply be informed days in advance of who he's drawing next.
I do think he knew the whole roster as of E3, but I am not sure if he knows it all otherwise.

Also, gonna be hard getting used to your new icon!

 

[Ra-Ha-Horakhty]

So you're...not siding with Verge? Since he's expecting an SE character.

...as a possible DLC.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'm going with the idea that we should keep this theory in mind in any case. At least until something proves or disproves it.

There's less than three months left until the game comes out, and the full roster is likely to be leaked yet again before it does, so in the grand scheme of things, little time remains before we'll find out what newcomers are really in.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Ehh... A bit too early, IMO... I think they'll save the Pokemon Direct somewhere early in 2019 to reveal Generation 8 and build that game's hype.

There likely has to be another info drop for LGP/E before it releases in November, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's where they drop Incineroar.

 

[Luigi The President]

...as a possible DLC.

...or in the base roster.
Where is this "SE rep = dlc only" assumption coming from?
He has never stated that. He has stated he is /LOOKING INTO THE SE REP'S STATUS/. That's the last we heard of it. Today.

 

[LetterO]

Not just to your point but to all of the "Sakurai wouldn't create a dlc character during base development". This is something we've with several recent Switch games.

ARMS had Max Brass ready to be played at E3 2017, but instead was released in July. Mario Aces had almost every (if not all) of the dlc characters ready at launch, but instead they were held off for months.

Its something Nintendo has done more recently, now that they are way more dlc friendly, and I could definitely see them announcing a new dlc character that will be ready close to launch. Just saying it's a possibility and doesn't go against what Nintendo has done.


Yes. It goes back to my point with the cgi trailers. There are people in, and even outside Nintendo, who know the whole roster. It's not like Sakurai and a select few know, especially this far into development and nearing the games release.

The difference is those characters are free updates. While it could change, Smash DLC has to be paid for most of the time.

 

[Pyra]

I'm going with the idea that we should keep this theory in mind in any case. At least until something proves or disproves it.

As we should.

There's less than three months left until the game comes out, and the full roster is likely to be leaked yet again before it does, so in the grand scheme of things, little time remains before we'll find out what newcomers are really in.

For it to actually matter as a leak it would have to happen before the final reveal trailer. So, I wonder if we'll end up seeing something soon, or if it just doesn't get leaked at all.
Depending on how soon the next direct is.


I wonder if anyone's gonna be shocked if the next direct is actually October 6-8th-ish, about the same time frame relative to the month as the last two directs (were planned)

 

[SlickWylde]

I hate to ask, but I just looked through a bunch of pages (there were a TON since I logged off on Friday). Can someone tell me what page you guys starting talk about the Box theory? Is it a Box, or Box Art??

 

[Ra-Ha-Horakhty]

...or in the base roster.
Where is this "SE rep = dlc only" assumption coming from?
He has never stated that. He has stated he is /LOOKING INTO THE SE REP'S STATUS/. That's the last we heard of it. Today.

Point taken.

 

[Nethermoosen]

If you side with verg that'd mean Incineroar, Ken and a square enix character (please Geno) would get in.
Unless you believe the SE character is dlc, but that feels like an excuse to explain box theory in my opinion.

It’s Ken that links Box Theory and Verg at all.
Because the pattern implicitly suggests an echo in the group Ryu is in. It could turn out to be Medusa, Mrs. Pac-man or Zack Fair. But Verg says Ken and that lines up. He is also only COMPLETELY SURE of 2. Which lines up to the 72 places on the box. SE rep is what will make or break the whole theory so long as he can confirm it for a fact.

If the box did not specifically suggest an echo, then we wouldn’t have cared about the box at all. If it has one echo, why wouldn’t it have the rest(assuming there are more)?

Needs to be factually discredited. Or this will continue.

I personally can’t find the motivation to continue any kind of roster speculation until this is resolved.

 

[Shroob]

...or in the base roster.
Where is this "SE rep = dlc only" assumption coming from?
He has never stated that. He has stated he is /LOOKING INTO THE SE REP'S STATUS/. That's the last we heard of it. Today.

I think it's due to how Verg basically goes right after talking about it

"Even if this is it, there'll be DLC!"

It's kind of a jarring transition in his comment.


Almost like he's trying to futureproof himself in the case that the SE character isn't on the base roster but is DLC.

 

[praline]

Honest question for everybody.

Do you think the guy who drew the mural knows the full roster?

I’d imagine so. Unless they got 2 people to do it?

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Ehh... A bit too early, IMO... I think they'll save the Pokemon Direct somewhere early in 2019 to reveal Generation 8 and build that game's hype.

There's also a new Pokemon from Gen 8 that's releasing with Let's Go. They need to reveal that.

However they don't normally do Pokemon directs and do their own thing usually. Not sure if we can expect a Smash tie in. I hope so.

 

[Paperchampion23]

I hate to ask, but I just looked through a bunch of pages (there were a TON since I logged off on Friday). Can someone tell me what page you guys starting talk about the Box theory? Is it a Box, or Box Art??

I don't know the page, but it's a 3d box render that clearly is being edited, that much is true. However what most people are arguing is that the box either confirms 2 more remaining characters (Ken and Incineroar) or the box means jack since it is being edited (meaning more than those 2)


I'm personally in the boat that Ken and Incineroar are meant to be shown before the final direct (During Capcom's TGS panel, during a possible Pokemon direct, etc. ), which is accommodated on this box, however the final direct with the rest of the characters are held off in secret and won't be promoted on any box before release on purpose.

 

[Shroob]

The difference is those characters are free updates. While it could change, Smash DLC has to be paid for most of the time.

And we'll buy it.


We know they were working on Ultimate alongside 4's DLC, I don't think it's crazy to assume that DLC is being worked on right now, especially since the game will probably go gold next month.

 

[Union of Darkness]

Honest question for everybody.

Do you think the guy who drew the mural knows the full roster?

The banner is just a collage of each character layered on to it. Each character has its own individual art that they move or resize as they need to.

 

[P.Kat]

I do wonder though how people would react to a second FF character like Terra.

I'd love to have Terra for Smash. I believe that if Sakurai is looking for another FF character, it's gonna be Terra.

 

[Paperchampion23]

It’s Ken that links Box Theory and Verg at all.
Because the pattern implicitly suggests an echo in the group Ryu is in. It could turn out to be Medusa, Mrs. Pac-man or Zack Fair. But Verg says Ken and that lines up. He is also only COMPLETELY SURE of 2. Which lines up to the 72 places on the box. SE rep is what will make or break the whole theory so long as he can confirm it for a fact.

If the box did not specifically suggest an echo, then we wouldn’t have cared about the box at all. If it has one echo, why wouldn’t it have the rest(assuming there are more)?

Needs to be factually discredited. Or this will continue.

I personally can’t find the motivation to continue any kind of roster speculation until this is resolved.

Additionally, Verg did not know about K. Rool and 3 of the echo fighters, so literally any other revealed character who is not Incineroar or Ken will break the box theory.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

Not just to your point but to all of the "Sakurai wouldn't create a dlc character during base development". This is something we've with several recent Switch games.

ARMS had Max Brass ready to be played at E3 2017, but instead was released in July. Mario Aces had almost every (if not all) of the dlc characters ready at launch, but instead they were held off for months.

Its something Nintendo has done more recently, now that they are way more dlc friendly, and I could definitely see them announcing a new dlc character that will be ready close to launch. Just saying it's a possibility and doesn't go against what Nintendo has done.

I mean in regards to the pattern between mewtwo and a potential smash ultimate early dlc. Mewtwo seemed to be dlc in a specific response to community outrage that he wasn't in, almost like it was an emergency addtion rather than a carefully planned early dlc announement, the sheer honestly of them saying we only have a model implied it was an entirely improptu thing" what I mean is that I don't think a DLC character would be from square enix, like Geno or DQ character, but rather someone who the community has been expecting, but never got in the base roster. Now, you *could* argue Geno fits this bill, but he's still third to the whole Skull Kid stuff and a distant second to the waluigi chaos. This may just be seeing patterns where there aren't any, but wouldn't waluigi be the first DLC character in this case, not one from Square Enix? I still feel like box and verge doesn't fit because of this. I genuinely think, at this point, the only possible early DLC character would be Waluigi.

Note that I am not a waluigi fan myself, yall know what mario character i want

 

[Shroob]

Additionally, Verg did not know about K. Rool and 3 of the echo fighters, so literally any other revealed character who is not Incineroar or Ken will break the box theory.

Yep.

But the question is when will these theoretical characters come?

This month's a wash, and October 'probably' will have nothing unless they do another Smash-Focused Direct, meaning we'd be banking on the last month before reveal.


It's definitely possible, but time is ticking.

 

[dezeray112]

So I guess for the time being we can wait and see what Vergeben's sources say in regards to the box theory or we could just wait and see what unravels within the next three months before the game comes out.

Anyways, I do think that even though Ken maybe an echo fighter of Ryu, I do expect him to either have Shoryu-Reppa or Shinryuken as part of his Final Smash.

 

[Ignoritus]

It’s Ken that links Box Theory and Verg at all.
Because the pattern implicitly suggests an echo in the group Ryu is in. It could turn out to be Medusa, Mrs. Pac-man or Zack Fair. But Verg says Ken and that lines up. He is also only COMPLETELY SURE of 2. Which lines up to the 72 places on the box. SE rep is what will make or break the whole theory so long as he can confirm it for a fact.

Can we stop spreading misinformation to try and force Vergeben to conform to this box theory? Vergeben has at no point displayed any uncertainty in the SE rep. He has stated that he has only heard it from once source, yes, but he has also stated it was one of his most reliable sources.

Kinda getting silly how people keep retconning what Verge said in order to bridge the fact that they keep using his claims (Incineroar + Ken) to round off a theory in spite of his claims otherwise contradicting that theory. There are possible explanations for why he could be wrong yeah, but there are also possible explanations for why the box could be wrong. In spite of this I see people repeatedly saying "Vergeben is right up until where he is wrong because the box theory!" instead of just humoring that maybe "The box theory is wrong".

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think there's at least 100 people who know the full roster. All people who wish to keep having jobs and feeding their families.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Honest question for everybody.

Do you think the guy who drew the mural knows the full roster?

He could, and their method is to change the current display of the banner over time with all of his work already finished for them, or they could just tell him in advance who to add next to correspond with the character's reveal date.

It could be either way, imo.

As we should.

For it to actually matter as a leak it would have to happen before the final reveal trailer. So, I wonder if we'll end up seeing something soon, or if it just doesn't get leaked at all.
Depending on how soon the next direct is.


I wonder if anyone's gonna be shocked if the next direct is actually October 6-8th-ish, about the same time frame relative to the month as the last two directs (were planned)

Very true. I'm not sure how likely it is to happen, but it'd be a smart move on Nintendo's part to start up some more Directs and/or Smash Directs soon, that is, if they want the characters revealed officially instead of the whole thing being unquestionably leaked again. Such leaks usually only happen close to the game's release date, so it is possible for them to reveal who's left before that happens if they absolutely want to.

Again, I still dunno how likely that actually is to happen, so yeah, I'd probably be a little surprised if we got another Direct that soon.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Additionally, Verg did not know about K. Rool and 3 of the echo fighters, so literally any other revealed character who is not Incineroar or Ken will break the box theory.

No. Incineroar doesn’t really matter.
If it isn’t Ken, but is still an echo that fits in the group of Palutena to Cloud, it still doesn’t break the theory at all.

If an echo like Dixie or Shadow is announced, then that would break the theory and we could all be blasting party poppers with Isabelle.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Shadow isn't even the most iconic character in his own series lol.

Neither is Ken.....

 

[Hinata]

Honest question for everybody.

Do you think the guy who drew the mural knows the full roster?

You know, I never thought about that. I'd imagine they must, right? They need to know where everyone is going, and what poses to draw them in and stuff.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Additionally, Verg did not know about K. Rool and 3 of the echo fighters, so literally any other revealed character who is not Incineroar or Ken will break the box theory.

Yep

The most Likely to kill it is the follow

Skull kid
Bandana dee
Isaac
Geno
Dixie Kong
Shadow the hedgehog
Black knight
Zack

 

[Starbound]

Additionally, Verg did not know about K. Rool and 3 of the echo fighters, so literally any other revealed character who is not Incineroar or Ken will break the box theory.

How? Box theory doesn't come from Vergeben. It's independent from Vergeben but can be combined with it to create the most likely situation of what fills in that remaining boxes.

The last two characters could be Zack Fair and Rhythm Wrestler or Medusa and Geno and the box theory would still hold true.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Neither is Ken.....

Ken is iconic af in his own series and in gaming history, he's literally Mr. Clone Character himself.
Street Fighter without Ken would be like Sonic the Hedgehog without Tails

 

[Nethermoosen]

Can we stop spreading misinformation to try and force Vergeben to conform to this box theory? Vergeben has at no point displayed any uncertainty in the SE rep. He has stated that he has only heard it from once source, yes, but he has also stated it was one of his most reliable sources.

Kinda getting silly how people keep retconning what Verge said in order to bridge the fact that they keep using his claims (Incineroar + Ken) to round off a theory in spite of his claims otherwise contradicting that theory. There are possible explanations for why he could be wrong yeah, but there are also possible explanations for why the box could be wrong. In spite of this I see people repeatedly saying "Vergeben is right up until where he is wrong because the box theory!" instead of just humoring that maybe "The box theory is wrong".

Retconned not a thing.
If he says the SE rep is base roster, I’ll feel a lot better. I never said the SE rep needs to/will be DLC at all. Ever.

He hasn’t said he knows whether he will be in Base roster. In fact, he states he is looking into it and waiting for a response.

I never retconned Verg’s statements at all.

 

[Potato_]

If anything, Verge was extremely confident in there being an SE rep. The question comes as to whether it's a base character (in which case everything gets thrown out the window) or dlc.