Smash on a Casual Level will be More Popular than Ever...

[MattTheGameFreak]

To be honest, I like Brawl more than 64 and Melee, because character movements flow better, and because of that, it's more fun to do actions in the game. On a more casual level, the number of options in Melee and 64 seems to be less, and what you do could easily have no affect. Brawl pretty much let me do anything, and it would likely work for the most part, and the hits felt good, unless it was an utterly stupid move on my part. Melee, especially, locked you to doing specific things that did and did not work, I feel. Melee feels rigid on a casual level in comparison to Brawl. Granted, on the competitive level, it is quite varied, but to get to that level, it requires a skill level many players may never achieve. I was never really good at Melee, maybe slightly above average, but never near professional... I tried my best to adapt professional strategies, but it never worked out for me. Sometimes I could wave-dash and actually use it properly, but other times I messed up the button inputs and left myself slightly vulnerable, if that gives ya an idea of where I stand with that game... Crouch-canceling though.. I miss that...

With all of that in mind, I'm quite hyped for Super Smash Bros. 4 for Wii U and 3DS, because they are close to Brawl in play-style, but improved in almost every way. The game is faster, heavyweights feel much more like heavyweights, tripping is removed, the character line-up and movements are more diverse than ever, the items are even more dangerous and interesting, so forth (swimming... where art thou? o.O ). I think we all need to stop aspiring the next Smash Bros. to be that, and that, and just accept it to be an even more fun Brawl-type Smash Bros. game. Brawl is the most popular Smash Bros. game to play on a casual level, and that in and of itself will draw people in to play, and Brawl did have its tournament scene. It would have remained strong for a longer period of time, if not for some glaring mechanic flaws, which have been corrected.

Overall, I feel that if the next Smash Bros. game were very similar to Melee, it would be less popular than Brawl on a casual level, and that would eventually lead to a less healthy game/player base... Melee worked with what it did, because it had even more options than 64, it was an improvement in character movement/options. It would be jarring, and not welcome to have casual players play Brawl, than Smash 4 as a Melee-type game, if it were one. No matter if we would like to admit it or not, the hardcore fan-base is almost always the minority of people who purchase games... Therefore appeasing the casual base, while fixing Brawl's problems and doing the other things I stated, will likely make Smash Bros. quite a bit more popular to play and talk about for some time... Many of my friends who do not play the series professionally hate Melee, and do not feel like it is fun at all. The only people I know that still like Melee are people who are technically proficient at it, or just very well skilled with the series. Brawl is more inviting, and hence Smash 4 will be inviting as well, since it seems to be closely related to Brawl's style. This will be beneficial to the series' future, much more than a game similar to Melee would have been. Also, food for thought, that my friends and I did play Project M for a period of time, but ultimately they wanted to switch back to Brawl, because it was more friendly.

To be clear, Smash 4 will ultimately be competitive (but I don't feel like it will be the alienating type of competitive with hard to do techniques). To be a more casual game in feel does not make it less competitive. As long as the game is fun to play, people will love it, and hold on to it like gold.

 

[Substitution]

Well that doesn't mean we can't have a competitive scene. Or let Nintendo make it more technical. Look at Pokemon. It appeals to both a casual and hardcore audience. So it's not like a balance can never work.

 

[Saito]

Overall, I feel that if the next Smash Bros. game were very similar to Melee, it would be less popular than Brawl on a casual level. No matter if we would like to admit it or not, the hardcore fan-base is almost always the minority of people who purchase games... Therefore appeasing the casual base, while fixing Brawl's problems and doing the other things I stated, will likely make Smash Bros. quite a bit more popular to play and talk about for some time... Many of my friends who do not play the series professionally hate Melee, and do not feel like it is fun at all. The only people I know that still like Melee are people who are technically proficient at it, or just very well skilled with the series. Brawl is more inviting, and hence Smash 4 will be inviting as well, since it seems to be closely related to Brawl's style. This will be beneficial to the series' future, much more than a game similar to Melee would have been. Also, food for thought, that my friends and I did play Project M for a period of time, but ultimately they wanted to switch back to Brawl, because it was more friendly.

Your statement makes it sound like Melee was a casual mess.

Honestly, Casual melee was amazing back then and generally the reason people don't like going back to it is because of the increased difficulty of recovering at a casual level. The additional characters in brawl are also appealing, on top of custom stages, stage variety, item choices, and the side dodge mechanics.

Did you play Melee before brawl came out with your friends casually? I'm sure they enjoyed it back then as well. Everything in melee in terms of recovery was a great step up from 64.

But to add, your example is a secluded one that doesn't provide much weight. I would argue that my friends who loved brawl casually, ended up enjoying melee more at a casual level. They wish they had the characters of brawl though (Of course we switched to project M though)

But you're right. Smash 4 is going to be the most inviting. I don't think because of playstyle. It's going to hit home as a new game with it's own speed; but because of the increased ease of playing with other players it's going to appeal to an even greater number of players.

Smash just ain't fun without other people.

 

[Canuckduck]

Smash just ain't fun without other people.

Unless you're me, who enjoys dueling a team of 3 level-9 cpus and, mostly, failing hard at it.

 

[Aureola]

I don't really get why people say Melee isn't fun for casuals. My friends and I loved playing the game, though we never got into it competitively. Most of us like Brawl more, but we still played Melee occasionally until the disc broke.

Smash just ain't fun without other people.

It's more fun, yes, but I have fun playing Brawl by myself, and I don't see how it'll change for 4.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

If you gave casuals the choice between having brawl or melee, and gave them ample enough time to try both, I'm sure most would pick brawl. Why? More content, and it's easier to get into.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

People on Snashboards like to pretend that Brawl was a failure and a Melee was an ultra success. The truth of the matter is that Brawl outsold Melee by a large margin. And the large portion of the fan base considers Brawl the best in the series.

 

[Bjørn Christian Noor]

Ignorant arguments, Meta Knight and tripping proves it.

 

[Saito]

People on Smashboards like to pretend that Brawl was a failure and a Melee was an ultra success. The truth of the matter is that Brawl outsold Melee by a large margin. And the large portion of the fan base considers Brawl the best in the series.

Not long before they consider Smash 4 the best one in the series.

And if there's a smash 5, then that will be the best one on the series.

So on and so forth.

Both melee and Brawl were really good successes. Melee has sold an amazing amount of games in porportion to how many gamecubes have been sold, and brawl sold extremely well, even more than melee. Arguably there are a ton more people with a wii, but brawl was far from a launch title as well.

 

[pizzapie7]

People on Snashboards like to pretend that Brawl was a failure and a Melee was an ultra success. The truth of the matter is that Brawl outsold Melee by a large margin. And the large portion of the fan base considers Brawl the best in the series.

I don't see anyone saying Melee sold better than Brawl. Sales numbers aren't quality though. I don't know a single person, casual or competitive, who prefers Brawl's gameplay to Melee.

 

[Renji64]

People ignore the installbase difference between the gamecube and wii smh. Both yeah smash 4 will be god like for casual gamers. I just hope it doesn't control clunky as brawl did i would love for smash to be close to the sharpest entry in the series.

 

[topspin1617]

I don't see anyone saying Melee sold better than Brawl. Sales numbers aren't quality though. I don't know a single person, casual or competitive, who prefers Brawl's gameplay to Melee.

You know, I could see how people could prefer Brawl's gameplay. Tripping is dumb, but you must agree that it is MUCH easier to kill yourself in Melee than it is in Brawl, and that's discouraging for a lot of people. Hell, even the pros do it; going for a wavedash into an edgehog? Push L a frame too late and you just airdodged off the stage to your death.

Now I'm not saying Brawl has the better gameplay, but I think it's also naive to think that casual players don't notice these things. In any case, I'm really excited for Smash 4 because, in my opinion, it does seem to be striking a good balance between a fun casual experience and something that can be played at a higher level. There's less "kill yourself" buttons than in Melee, but it's definitely more fast-paced than Brawl. Maybe I'm just over-optimistic, but it just feels like this one is coming together almost perfectly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

This game will be more popular than ever with casuals because Sakurai seems to be putting a lot of effort into side modes and things like character customization that will increase replay value for casuals rather than putting a lot of effort into a Subspace Emissary-type story mode that might be fun the first time but gets dull quickly if you try to replay it. While competitive players stay with the game a long time because the game is always changing as you learn all of the game's nuances, this game seems to be designed in such a way so that it is always changing even on a basic and casual level thanks to move customization, character power-ups, and modes like Smash Run literally being different every time you play. Things like amiibo battles and comparing Global Smash Power scores online like Mario Kart Time Trials also add to the experience.

Sakurai definitely seems more interested in content that is designed to keep the core game fresh for years, and there have already been plenty of debates about what forms of variation should be permitted in competitive Smash. Casuals will absolutely love this game because it seems there's so much more stuff to play around with.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I don't see anyone saying Melee sold better than Brawl. Sales numbers aren't quality though. I don't know a single person, casual or competitive, who prefers Brawl's gameplay to Melee.

Um, are you blind? Here...I'll go first.

*wave

Hi, I prefer Brawl more than Melee.

I sure did play Melee a ton, casually and competitively, and Melee was fun casually while it was the only option available to those who gave up their Nintendo 64 systems, but you will never catch me saying Melee is more fun than Brawl casually. Competitively on several levels, obviously, Melee shines brighter, but Brawl blows Melee out of the water in almost every other way.

 

[pizzapie7]

Um, are you blind? Here...I'll go first.

*wave

Hi, I prefer Brawl more than Melee.

I sure did play Melee a ton, casually and competitively, and Melee was fun casually while it was the only option available to those who gave up their Nintendo 64 systems, but you will never catch me saying Melee is more fun than Brawl casually. Competitively on several levels, obviously, Melee shines brighter, but Brawl blows Melee out of the water in almost every other way.

Of course I meant in real life. I've never played Smash with a person who prefers Brawl to Melee. Fun is subjective, why do you people forget this. Your fun isn't my fun. My fun isn't OP's fun. Just because you think Melee was only fun "while it was the only option" doesn't mean that that is the 100% truth for the entire population. I know people who would never consider playing Smash competitively who think Brawl is too slow, floaty, defensive, <insert any Brawl complaint here> to be enjoyable. People actually want their video games to have good, rewarding, fun gameplay. Such a shocker, right?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Of course I meant in real life. I've never played Smash with a person who prefers Brawl to Melee. Fun is subjective, why do you people forget this. Your fun isn't my fun. My fun isn't OP's fun. Just because you think Melee was only fun "while it was the only option" doesn't mean that that is the 100% truth for the entire population. I know people who would never consider playing Smash competitively who think Brawl is too slow, floaty, defensive, <insert any Brawl complaint here> to be enjoyable. People actually want their video games to have good, rewarding, fun gameplay. Such a shocker, right?

I never implied that what I was stating was true for everyone, I was simply illustrating that many people exist who feel Brawl > Melee.

You're telling me to open up my horizons to contrasting opinions yet ironically I feel like that's what you're neglecting to do...

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I love how certain people are defending Melee even casually, as though it could do no wrong. "Casual Melee was super fun too and was easy to get into and was better than Brawl and no one likes Brawl!"

Can it. There are people out there who enjoyed Brawl more than Melee. For me, I'll swallow my pride and admit I liked both equally, but both had their issues that Sm4sh seems to have solved.

We get it. There are people who will defend Melee even if it shot their parents. As for me, I personally disliked how heavy it felt and just how imbalanced the tiers were even at a casual level. (Mind you, Brawl is too floaty.)

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Personally, on a casual level I much prefer Brawl over Melee. Even if I do miss Marth's jab actually being useful. There are a few reasons for this: Ledge snapping, the ability to actually complete an aerial attack IN THE AIR instead of landing with massive lag (didn't know about L-cancelling way back when), revamped air dodges, faster sidesteps and rolls, and that beautiful, beautiful 10-frame buffer that I never even knew about but that made attacking out of a roll so much easier and also made Marth's Dancing Blade much easier to use.

I still don't mind saying that I actually do somewhat miss Mewtwo and Pichu. Pichu because a fully charged Side Special is so hilariously powerful, and because he's actually floaty enough to use an aerial without landing. Mewtwo because his FThrow is awesome and teleporting is fun.

As for Smash 4, it looks to combine the best of both games, with the exception of the removal of swimming. (Why would you ban stages for swimming anyway? It's not like a walk-off, nor does it add any element of randomness.)

 

[ToothiestAura]

I enjoyed Melee casually quite a bit. Going back now, it just feels empty. PM on the other hand is fine to play casually (even if certain items have basically been broken). There do appear to be differences between how PM and Melee play, likely because PM uses a modified brawl engine. Overall PM is better, at least casually, then Melee. There are balance issues with PM as well, but it is to be expected as it isn't the final release.

 

[Jumpman84]

I don't see anyone saying Melee sold better than Brawl. Sales numbers aren't quality though. I don't know a single person, casual or competitive, who prefers Brawl's gameplay to Melee.

Well, now you do. (Hint: that's me).

To elaborate, I enjoy all three games as they are all distinct and have their own pros and cons, but putting them side to side makes it pretty clear that as the series goes on, it gets better. Smash 64 is the least content filled of the pack, though the game is still fun to play. Melee has more content than 64, but Brawl easily takes the cake out of the three so far. In that regard, Brawl > Melee > 64, from a content perspective. I'm not counting Project M as it's an unofficial "game", but its removal of Subspace Emissary is a pretty big disappointment.

Anyway, I'm confident that Smash for 3DS and Wii U will be the best games yet.

 

[Turokman5896]

I don't see anyone saying Melee sold better than Brawl. Sales numbers aren't quality though. I don't know a single person, casual or competitive, who prefers Brawl's gameplay to Melee.

Hardly true. My brother and his/my friends hate the massive hitstun in melee and vastly prefer brawls gameplay. Not everyone prefers melee you know...

 

[Azule07]

There's a group of six/seven/either players (depending on the day and availability of everyone) who get together, myself included. We play games all the time, and after trying Brawl, Melee and Project M, we all agreed that there was just too much wrong with Melee to be a "casual" game, and if we were going to play it, we'd have to spend a very long time working on our playstyles. Melee has more "pro" options, but casual players don't like pro options. The phrase "Don't run before you can walk" does come into mind here.

As a side note, I find it amusing how the Brawl fans are willing to accept that Melee had it's advantages, but the Melee fans refuse to give anything to Brawl. (This is just a generalization, I know there are some people who aren't like this)

 

[HeavyLobster]

Well, now you do. (Hint: that's me).

To elaborate, I enjoy all three games as they are all distinct and have their own pros and cons, but putting them side to side makes it pretty clear that as the series goes on, it gets better. Smash 64 is the least content filled of the pack, though the game is still fun to play. Melee has more content than 64, but Brawl easily takes the cake out of the three so far. In that regard, Brawl > Melee > 64, from a content perspective. I'm not counting Project M as it's an unofficial "game", but its removal of Subspace Emissary is a pretty big disappointment.

Anyway, I'm confident that Smash for 3DS and Wii U will be the best games yet.

I enjoy all three games as well. I tend to think Smash 64 has the best 4-player FFAs, Melee has the best 1-on-1 play, and Brawl has the best single-player. There's good things about all of the games that make them worth playing.

 

[Raijinken]

Of course I meant in real life. I've never played Smash with a person who prefers Brawl to Melee. Fun is subjective, why do you people forget this. Your fun isn't my fun. My fun isn't OP's fun. Just because you think Melee was only fun "while it was the only option" doesn't mean that that is the 100% truth for the entire population. I know people who would never consider playing Smash competitively who think Brawl is too slow, floaty, defensive, <insert any Brawl complaint here> to be enjoyable. People actually want their video games to have good, rewarding, fun gameplay. Such a shocker, right?

I know people who are such fans of Brawl that they think Project M ruins it for going back to Melee physics. And the smallest crowd I know is the one that found any of the three games to be unenjoyable.

As for me, I like them all casually, and pretty frequently play older ones just for the change of pace. But the only one I can (currently) stand watching or playing at a competitive level is Project M, since Brawl is too slow, and Melee is too Fox.

The Wii's success in the last generation of console wars did, in fact, indicate that a wider audience appeal is better for sales, even if it takes a dedicated crowd to attain longevity. Hopefully Smash4 will hit both crowds with the content depth, portability, and (hoped for) balance patches to keep things fresh.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

One thing I personally love about Brawl is going back to replay SSE as Sonic after playing through the rest of the story. SSE plays really, REALLY well with Sonic on Easy difficulty, after equipping the biggest Body/Spin Attack+ and Special Attack+ stickers available. The Spin Charge instantly kills most basic foes, while the Homing Attack does the same in the battle segments. It actually almost feels like a real Sonic game with a more manageable speed, and you can do things like circumvent the cannons on the stage "The Jungle" by chaining Homing Attacks across the Koopa Paratroopas. The problem is that the Homing Attack has too much endlag, so you get stuck with that landing lag almost any time you use it outside of a battle segment if you're not above a bottomless pit.

 

[StarLight42]

I really don't care how this game goes about with casuals. I'm kind of a casual myself, and I actually like Melee better than Brawl. Few people realize this, but Melee with items on is actually pretty fun.

I want Smash 4 to be competitive though because the invitational was so epic and I want more things to watch like that.

However, any Smash game should be good with casuals, even Project M is fun with items on, yes, I did just say that.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I love how certain people are defending Melee even casually, as though it could do no wrong. "Casual Melee was super fun too and was easy to get into and was better than Brawl and no one likes Brawl!"

Can it. There are people out there who enjoyed Brawl more than Melee. For me, I'll swallow my pride and admit I liked both equally, but both had their issues that Sm4sh seems to have solved.

We get it. There are people who will defend Melee even if it shot their parents. As for me, I personally disliked how heavy it felt and just how imbalanced the tiers were even at a casual level. (Mind you, Brawl is too floaty.)

We defend it because the statements going against the game are ridiculous. Ever since Sakurai said "Melee was hard" no one can think on their own.

I mean when the game out we were kids. Honestly, can you really tell me you cared back when you were 9-13 years old?

 

[Turokman5896]

We defend it because the statements going against the game are ridiculous. Ever since Sakurai said "Melee was hard" no one can think on their own.

I mean when the game out we were kids. Honestly, can you really tell me you cared back when you were 9-13 years old?

Yea, I can. Playing melee now is better, but when I was a kid; I hated playing characters like fox, because I felt like they were too fast to control. The only exception is captain falcon, but I just used his specials a lot since I sucked. So yea; id argue that is was harder when I was younger then it is now.

 

[Saito]

However, any Smash game should be good with casuals, even Project M is fun with items on, yes, I did just say that.

The only item in project M that is criminal, is the timer.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yea, I can. Playing melee now is better, but when I was a kid; I hated playing characters like fox, because I felt like they were too fast to control. The only exception is captain falcon, but I just used his specials a lot since I sucked. So yea; is argue that is was harder when I was younger then it is now.

You can say that about anything, unless you're a child prodigy. I though doing tilts were hard in 64 until I got older, because you were just trying to press buttons, you didn't necessarily have a focus or emphasized on piquing your execution.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Melee was never a bad game from a casual perspective. There were a few aspects of Melee that were frustrating to casuals, such as recovery being difficult, and it being super-easy to F-smash a recovering player back off the stage if you don't time your recovery perfectly, but these didn't really ruin the game as a whole. That being said, it's difficult to transition back to full Melee physics after playing Brawl for years for any player, much less a casual one, so it's understandable why Sakurai would try to cater to both audiences by making fall speeds in between the two to make the transition less jarring for both sides. (Of course, it's still going to feel very weird to competitive players who have years of deeply ingrained Melee muscle memory to adjust to any substantial physics changes without the game feeling "off.")

 

[SoaringDive]

I made a comment on a reddit thread about Smash being developed as a party game, and I think it applies here:

I think it's mainly that Smash is a celebration of Nintendo history, and that any Nintendo fan should be able to pick it up and play competently within a round or two. To a lot of us that grew up on platformers and action games, Melee wasn't hard to pick up and play. But what about your nephew that has only played Pokemon? Or sister that has played hundreds of hours in Animal Crossing but hasn't been able to play past the first few levels of SMB? Brawl was made with everyone in mind, but a couple of bad decisions made it a bit less enjoyable for those that loved playing Melee.

The bolded part is the important part. Even if they don't play all that "hardcore", someone who has beaten New Super Mario Bros Wii is going to have an easy time having fun playing Melee, while someone who never plays any sort of action game* will find it frustrating and not have a lot of fun. That conflicts with the philosophy that any Nintendo fan should be able to easily have a good time.*By "Action game", I simply mean any real-time game where you need a good control over physics, including platformers, hack'n'slash, etc.

That brings me to why I'm excited for Smash 4: It has the approach-ability of Brawl while not alienating players trying to take it further.

 

[Fyrefox]

Casual players = easy wins added to your Smash record

 

[Number1MinunFan]

There are three types of Players

Casual= Items on,Any Stage, gets his friends over for a all-nighter

Competitive= Items off FD/Battlefield/Any other balanced stage,competes in Tournaments

Mixed= Does both

I would say being a mixed player is the funnest

 

[Turokman5896]

You can say that about anything, unless you're a child prodigy. I though doing tilts were hard in 64 until I got older, because you were just trying to press buttons, you didn't necessarily have a focus or emphasized on piquing your execution.

That's my point. Melee felt hard to me as a kid. Brawl was easy, and a hell of a lot more fun at that age. In review, since apparently it was missed; brawl was a lot easier for total noobs to pick up and play any character. And, because of this, many have developed a preference for brawl, since playing melee later feels "off." Im speaking from personal experience naturally, and I can't say any game is bad or better than another. But I can say that brawl is preferred by some and is not to be so looked down upon.

 

[Senario]

And so the melee vs brawl debate has begun. Just as a note all smash games are great party games on their own. I never met anybody who played any of the Smash games while they were a kid that said it was "too hard". And you can be sure that items and stage hazards cement all of the games as solid party games. Being a watchable or interesting to watch competitive fighting game though is not something that can generally be attributed to all games. And we dont know if nintendo will use their e3 notes for good like making the game better or bad like marketing the game without any mechanics to back it up.

 

[Gidy]

Of course it will be. Have you seen the items in the new one? They look hella fun.

Competitively, who knows.

 

[Donyoku]

I feel that clearly SSB4 will be a huge hit casually as the previous games were before it. The only thing I see holding it back could be how the Wii U did not sell that well upon release and still to this point has been underselling. This game in my opinion is what Nintendo needs to boost sales and in my opinion has targeted the all the right people to do so. SSB4 looks like fun casual game with tons of new features, new items, new characters, just new everything to be honest. All while still trying to aim at the competitive players such as ourselves. I think the game will have a great causal feel for me and friends just to do stuff and play around while not caring about winning or losing but, under the hood there will be the mechanics that can turn it into a competitive game on the spot. That's just my opinion of course, its all what you make it.

 

[κomıc]

I kinda wish there was another side to competitive Smash Bros.

Playing with items on and all stages. I'd love to see a new demographic open up in competitive play without such a thing being called "casual".

 

[Gidy]

I kinda wish there was another side to competitive Smash Bros.

Playing with items on and all stages. I'd love to see a new demographic open up in competitive play without such a thing being called "casual".

Custom movesets?