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Smash item bans/restrictions explained
- Thread starter MajinSweet
- Start date
Tatsujinken
Smash Journeyman
Exploding containers are a big reason to turn off items if you want to play competitively, but I hardly believe that they're the only reason. The fact of the matter is that items are still random. They appear at random times, in random types, and at random locations. To take away as many random obstacles as possible is to allow for a match based more on skill, not luck. And skill is what's important if you're going to play at a competitive level.
Magnacor
Smash Ace
Yes, but some items do take skill to use effectively like the Flipper, which will be the Bumber in Brawl, but you get the idea. Most items will probably be turned off, but some could stay.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I think some fair items will be used in brawl since exploding barrels look different than regular barrels an are probably turn-offable.
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I like the idea of items being on at the start. Items were how the smash community discovered wavedashing. Maybe having items on for a while will lead us to another awesome technique. Not that I actually expect to see items on for very long, especially with the new aerial item grab mechanic, but it should be interesting to see what happens in the beginning.
TheJalapeno
Smash Ace
Who doesn't like to occasionally play with items? It's alright if you don't, but really now. When you booted up Melee you werent like "Dude im turining items off k" You played, you had fun and such. Brawl is a different game. Have some fun!
MajinSweet
Smash Journeyman
Yes I know that, I adressed that in the first post. And thats not really what this topic is about anyway.
I suppose that's near the core of some players' mindsets on the issue. I personally don't think that that has too much bearing on whether or not the item dynamic is broken though, I mean it's not like the game decides to help one player or hinder another deliberately. It just kinda works out that way sometimes, but in a way it's still equal because it's just a different dynamic than no-item play.
Really, if people were to seriously advocate the removal of all random aspects of competitive play because they "dilute the skill needed to win," then why isn't Peach banned? Why not G&W? Stadium? (Peach's castle wasn't banned because of random bullet bills, to whoever posted that, it was because the tower in the middle makes for powerful and easy camping) Hell, even Dreamland 64 (wind) and Yoshi Story (shy guys). See, it's not about what's random, it's about how it affects the game. People just get so worked up about items, many of them (I believe) because they don't like or don't understand the differences in the gameplay they make.
SubparSmashBrother
Smash Ace
This is awfully similar to AlphaZealot's Stage bans/restrictions thread.
Im gonna be completely honest, even before I learned about competitive smash, I hated playing with items on. It was mostly because the match would degrade into a me and whoever I was playing at the time completely avoiding each other and running after the broken items. Once I learned about competitive smash and subsequently learned advanced techs, I actually enjoyed playing with items on but it was my casual friends who didn't. They said I was "too good with items" because I knew how to grab items while jumping(when I say casual I mean REALLY casual) and could grab their thrown items too easily. They said it was actually less fair because I knew how to use the items so well. This made me realize that the argument about items on/off only arises for two reasons. One, the people who just enjoy playing with items on and don't take the game very seriously(this can be either casual players or just non tourny going competitive)Or two, the people who honestly believe that they can beat highly skilled players if they played with items on. This is where the uniformed become trolls as they decide to say something along the lines of "REAL MEN USE ITEMS, TOURN***S" then walk away forever. The fact is, most high level players have played with items on, ALOT. They know how to use them, they know how to use them well. The reason they DON'T use them in tourney's isn't because they don't know how but rather because items could lead to completely random, completely unavoidable deaths.
P.S Im not a pro, Im not a semi-pro, Im not even someone worth noting on these boards, this is simply my opinion based on observations of the dozens of threads that get made each week talking about how items SHOULD be on.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Thats a pretty big generalization.
I don't know of a single person who only plays with items on so that they can beat someone better. And I always play with Items if I'm not trying to prove how good I am or if its for money.
Some items(such as the ray gun, metal box, green shells, flipper, fan, and motion sensor bomb) give specific advantages or disadvantages, and are not unfair at all. Now that exploding crates are a separate item, I believe certain items will be allowed. Also I know plenty of people that take the game seriously and still enjoy items.
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CL175
Sorry, I should have been more specific. What I meant was that the argument that arises HERE on SWF is usually only brought up by one of those two sweeping generalizations(with the first of the two not realizing that they are going to ignite a flame war) I know plenty of people who are serious in the game and play with items as well, its just they aren't the ones who usually start arguments like you see around the boards, because they realize that the larger part of the community plays without items.
MajinSweet
Smash Journeyman
I would have to disagree with this, but you do have a point about the exploding creates--lets hope they can be turned off without it effecting other items. Even if an item truly was fair, smash still has random spawn locations and times. Meaning that one of the players will have more use of the items based on pure luck. If Brawl had an option where the stages could have a feature that allowed interval based item spawns in set location then it would be decided on skill instead. Players could fight for position around those location to ensure they get the item when it arrives.
5150
Banned via Administration
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flyinfilipino
Smash Master
Why do you even bother?
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Yes but most of the Items that I listed give the player that gets them disadvantages too. The ray gun can be reflected by any character and in brawl can be dodged while you are off the stage. The metal box makes it harder to recover and harder to reach your opponent. Green shells can be dodged, stopped, reflected AND caught, so its just a matter of if you can avoid it or counter it. The flipper must be placed strategically and can be dodged through, along with being easy to avoid if your not recovering. The fan has short range and can be caught if thrown. Finally the motion sensor bomb must also be placed strategically and can easily be shielded/safely detonated/dodged/used against you. Those aren't even all of the fair items in Melee, and there will probably be many more in brawl.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
I don't do money matches with trolls. Get back under the bridge and eat billy goats.
Linkster47
Smash Apprentice
I agree that the reason items were banned was because of the exploding thing, but I think they would have been banned eventually even without the explosions.
Raikou-
Smash Apprentice
I'm sure that's not the only reason items were banned.
Tournaments would be pretty gay with items on IMO. I would never enter if luck was such a big factor in the outcome of each of my matches. People compete to see who the best is, and obviously items do nothing but get in the way of that. Nobody can be the best at having items spawn right in front of them. I think if you're going to enter a tournament, you should win a match because you outplayed your opponent and not for any other reason. I even hate to see Peach's pull stitch-faces and win matches or Luigi's get kills with misfire.
For those of you who want items on in tournaments, my advice is start doing something about it. If you search, I know you'll find something. If that fails, who or what is stopping you from hosting a tournament with items on?
Ken (Game & Watch) vs DSF (Luigi) - Pandatration Items tournament.