MajinSweet
Smash Journeyman
I'm making this topic because some people simply don't understand the reasoning as to why certain things were banned in competitive SSBM. I'll explain why things are banned and how the process took place. I will support all my claims. Please try to have an open mind when reading this.
And you may be wondering..."What does this have to do with Brawl?" Then I'll just come right out and say it, items in Brawl are almost certainly going to be banned in competitive play. They are going to be given a chance, but from the demo impressions it seems they are even more unbalanced/luck factor oriented than Melee. Look at the spicy curry or the smart bomb. So when that happens, I don't want you to be shocked--or angry. I want you to understand. There is a rational explanation as to why these bans and restrictions happen.
If you are wondering why certain stages were banned, look no further.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110804
First of all, lets make something clear. Items were given a chance in Melee. Roughly 3 years I believe. Items were phased out of competitive play because it was basically agreed by competitive players that it was the best thing for the game. The purpose of competitive play is to determine the better player. If you don't know how competitive gaming is played then I highly recommend that you read this.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/prologue/
A lot of people seem to think that taking out items or banning stages takes out the "fun" but, actually the opposite is true. People that play competitive smash for the most part are people that have already had there fair share of "item fun" (This is not to say competitive players don't blow off steam with items now and then) and are now looking for something more in the game. Such as new techniques, subtle nuances to an attack that was other wise not usable, developing a new combo or simply trying to be the best. And yes even the pro's play with items sometimes when not at a tourney.
And something I cannot stress enough is that stage banning/item banning is done simply for the sake of the competitive scene. If you don't agree with it, nothing is forcing you to abide by these rules. Secondly, if you ever become a tourney goer--you will probably end up being grateful that certain bans/restrictions are in place. Without stage bans, Fox would probably be the only viable character. Hyrule camping and waveshining off of non-ledge stages is just over powered and not fun.
I'll now provide a few examples of why items were eventually banned, as I already mentioned, they are random factors that don't define the skill of the player. But here I will go more in depth and give a more solid reason.
Starman-Randomly appears and bounces around the stage, player that touches it will not take damage or flinch from any attack. This clearly gives one player a huge advantage. And most of the time there isn't even any skill in getting it, as it will appear and move right into a player.
Hammer-Who ever gets this item because a bringer of death with a huge constant hitbox that doesn't go away for a long time OR the hammer head falls off, and the player can now no longer defend themselves or recover. Does this even need to be explained? You could be punished for being the player that gets to the item first or you could be rewarded for not getting it and vice versa. All based on chance/luck.
Heart Container-Restores 100% health This is basically an item that gives a player a huge handicap. It it really fair for you to dominate a whole stock and rack up so much damage just for it all to be taken away in an instant? You could say "If your are more skilled the player won't get it." But, again you must remember that item spawns are all random. Even if your twice as good as your opponent you can't know that an item will spawn at his feet.
Bombs-Exploding Capsules/boxes- Randomly spawn and do massive damage and usually net low percentage kills. Again, does this really need to be explained? They could appear mid combo and kill a player when struck. They can make for an impossible to get around edge guard, they are just too over powered.
Pokeball-Summons 1 Pokemon out of 29. They might do nothing, or may destroy everything in sight. Completely random.
Super Mushroom-Randomly spawn and move across the ground. Gives your character much more range, damage and knock back. Can almost give you a free kill depending on the situation. Just thinking about Marth's range and how to avoid it would be a daunting task.
These are only a few examples but, almost all the items have elements to them that make them all based on random luck or just too powerful in general.
So lets put everything together here. Items spawn in random places. The item that appears is random. What the items does is often random or way over powered/under powered. And on top of that the capsules and boxes that hold items will sometimes randomly explode. When you sum it up, its impossible to be a "master" of items. Many people claim that "If you were skilled you would be good with items" when that just isn't achievable.
And whats worse is that items would probably just make the character roster even more unbalanced. The shine is already a some what over powered attack as it is, with items its counters a ton of things that other character just can't deal with. Someone throws a bomb at you? Reflect it back for a kill. And Falco's lasers and Shiek's needles can be used to blow up explosive items from afar to kill opponents with out putting yourself at risk.
As far as Super Smash Brothers Melee is concerned there isn't any reason to include items in the competitive scene. Many people try to argue that they add depth or strategy but, the opposite is true. When you go into a match against a Falco player you know his inherent weaknesses, you can develop a game plan. "I'll take advantage of his bad recovery, I'll try to get low percentage kills by taking the fight to the edge," With items on, there is really no point in developing this strategy. You may try to use your plan only for him to get a lucky pokeball that takes your stock. The strategy becomes less of knowing your opponent and more of abusing items. The depth of abusing items is minimal.
Many people argue that "Items is how the game was meant to be played." First of all, competitive play doesn't concern itself with anything like that. So the point is moot to begin with. Secondly, the games are built with options that let you play with items off just as easily as playing with items on. So really, if you want to argue about "How the game was meant to be played." then the only conclusion you can come to is "anyway you want." So when a competitive tourney is setup, logically the best thing to do would to make rules that cater to a competitive nature. Which is exactly what was done.
If you were someone that thought banning items was stupid or "***", I hope that after reading this you can at least understand why it needs to be done. No one is forcing you to play a certain way, and no one is telling you the right way to play. If you think that competitive play should use items for what ever reason, you should first think about the following...
The people that designed these rules/restrictions are Smash players that probably know what they are doing.
People have argued that items should be in competitive smash many times, can I bring up something new that could change peoples opinion?
Why am I arguing for Items? Am I a tourney goer? Do I truly know the ramifications of items being put back into competitive play?
And that is all for now, I may edit if someone brings something to my attention.
And you may be wondering..."What does this have to do with Brawl?" Then I'll just come right out and say it, items in Brawl are almost certainly going to be banned in competitive play. They are going to be given a chance, but from the demo impressions it seems they are even more unbalanced/luck factor oriented than Melee. Look at the spicy curry or the smart bomb. So when that happens, I don't want you to be shocked--or angry. I want you to understand. There is a rational explanation as to why these bans and restrictions happen.
If you are wondering why certain stages were banned, look no further.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110804
First of all, lets make something clear. Items were given a chance in Melee. Roughly 3 years I believe. Items were phased out of competitive play because it was basically agreed by competitive players that it was the best thing for the game. The purpose of competitive play is to determine the better player. If you don't know how competitive gaming is played then I highly recommend that you read this.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/prologue/
A lot of people seem to think that taking out items or banning stages takes out the "fun" but, actually the opposite is true. People that play competitive smash for the most part are people that have already had there fair share of "item fun" (This is not to say competitive players don't blow off steam with items now and then) and are now looking for something more in the game. Such as new techniques, subtle nuances to an attack that was other wise not usable, developing a new combo or simply trying to be the best. And yes even the pro's play with items sometimes when not at a tourney.
And something I cannot stress enough is that stage banning/item banning is done simply for the sake of the competitive scene. If you don't agree with it, nothing is forcing you to abide by these rules. Secondly, if you ever become a tourney goer--you will probably end up being grateful that certain bans/restrictions are in place. Without stage bans, Fox would probably be the only viable character. Hyrule camping and waveshining off of non-ledge stages is just over powered and not fun.
I'll now provide a few examples of why items were eventually banned, as I already mentioned, they are random factors that don't define the skill of the player. But here I will go more in depth and give a more solid reason.
Starman-Randomly appears and bounces around the stage, player that touches it will not take damage or flinch from any attack. This clearly gives one player a huge advantage. And most of the time there isn't even any skill in getting it, as it will appear and move right into a player.
Hammer-Who ever gets this item because a bringer of death with a huge constant hitbox that doesn't go away for a long time OR the hammer head falls off, and the player can now no longer defend themselves or recover. Does this even need to be explained? You could be punished for being the player that gets to the item first or you could be rewarded for not getting it and vice versa. All based on chance/luck.
Heart Container-Restores 100% health This is basically an item that gives a player a huge handicap. It it really fair for you to dominate a whole stock and rack up so much damage just for it all to be taken away in an instant? You could say "If your are more skilled the player won't get it." But, again you must remember that item spawns are all random. Even if your twice as good as your opponent you can't know that an item will spawn at his feet.
Bombs-Exploding Capsules/boxes- Randomly spawn and do massive damage and usually net low percentage kills. Again, does this really need to be explained? They could appear mid combo and kill a player when struck. They can make for an impossible to get around edge guard, they are just too over powered.
Pokeball-Summons 1 Pokemon out of 29. They might do nothing, or may destroy everything in sight. Completely random.
Super Mushroom-Randomly spawn and move across the ground. Gives your character much more range, damage and knock back. Can almost give you a free kill depending on the situation. Just thinking about Marth's range and how to avoid it would be a daunting task.
These are only a few examples but, almost all the items have elements to them that make them all based on random luck or just too powerful in general.
So lets put everything together here. Items spawn in random places. The item that appears is random. What the items does is often random or way over powered/under powered. And on top of that the capsules and boxes that hold items will sometimes randomly explode. When you sum it up, its impossible to be a "master" of items. Many people claim that "If you were skilled you would be good with items" when that just isn't achievable.
And whats worse is that items would probably just make the character roster even more unbalanced. The shine is already a some what over powered attack as it is, with items its counters a ton of things that other character just can't deal with. Someone throws a bomb at you? Reflect it back for a kill. And Falco's lasers and Shiek's needles can be used to blow up explosive items from afar to kill opponents with out putting yourself at risk.
As far as Super Smash Brothers Melee is concerned there isn't any reason to include items in the competitive scene. Many people try to argue that they add depth or strategy but, the opposite is true. When you go into a match against a Falco player you know his inherent weaknesses, you can develop a game plan. "I'll take advantage of his bad recovery, I'll try to get low percentage kills by taking the fight to the edge," With items on, there is really no point in developing this strategy. You may try to use your plan only for him to get a lucky pokeball that takes your stock. The strategy becomes less of knowing your opponent and more of abusing items. The depth of abusing items is minimal.
Many people argue that "Items is how the game was meant to be played." First of all, competitive play doesn't concern itself with anything like that. So the point is moot to begin with. Secondly, the games are built with options that let you play with items off just as easily as playing with items on. So really, if you want to argue about "How the game was meant to be played." then the only conclusion you can come to is "anyway you want." So when a competitive tourney is setup, logically the best thing to do would to make rules that cater to a competitive nature. Which is exactly what was done.
If you were someone that thought banning items was stupid or "***", I hope that after reading this you can at least understand why it needs to be done. No one is forcing you to play a certain way, and no one is telling you the right way to play. If you think that competitive play should use items for what ever reason, you should first think about the following...
The people that designed these rules/restrictions are Smash players that probably know what they are doing.
People have argued that items should be in competitive smash many times, can I bring up something new that could change peoples opinion?
Why am I arguing for Items? Am I a tourney goer? Do I truly know the ramifications of items being put back into competitive play?
And that is all for now, I may edit if someone brings something to my attention.
That's all it's about. If pros thought they made more money with items on, we'd have long rants talking about how items are good for the game.