Smash for Wii U 2018 Competitive Ruleset

A Scrub

BonghornLeghorn
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#1
Hi all,

I haven't heard anything, but was wondering if there were talks about looking at the 2017 ruleset and whether there were adjustments going to be made? Stage legality/coaching mumble mumble.
 
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#6
Since Miiverse is down, I was wondering if the Miiverse stage would be legal since there won't be any distractions in the background, nor any inappropriate content.
I would expect/hope so, but I don't know if that's even going to be considered. One potential downside is that it still wouldn't be available for online tournaments.
 

Crystanium

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#7
I would expect/hope so, but I don't know if that's even going to be considered. One potential downside is that it still wouldn't be available for online tournaments.
I'm mainly focused on offline tournaments. I've never been to one myself, but anyway, more stages would be nice. I'm honestly tired of Starterville and Town & City.
 

Crystanium

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#9
I honestly want Duck Hunt back.
Same here. I enjoyed that stage, which is kind of funny because at first I didn't care about it. I thought it was a walk-off stage, and it seemed so wide. I ended up enjoying it for two reasons: 1. It benefited me. 2. The Duck Hunt Medley (awesome remix of the original). If only we could get the stage back in its Ω form. (Fun fact: Ω means "big O".)
 
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YELLO

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#10
I dont know how they are going to restrict midmatch coaching, you cant prohibit some one from having a conversation or from going to the bathroom even. If they want to do it they are going to do it.
 
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#11
I honestly want Duck Hunt back.
The competitive scene is better off without it, in my opinion. Not only is the stage bad (in competitive play) because of camping, but the tree also leads to some jank, as do the ducks (staling/blocking projectiles). The dog is another element that may not be RNG but can still be pretty janky, even top players don't always know when the dog is going to show up.

I dont know how they are going to restrict midmatch coaching, you cant prohibit some one from having a conversation or from going to the bathroom even. If they want to do it they are going to do it.
Of course you could. If teachers can prohibit students from going to the bathroom in the middle of a test, then TOs can prohibit people from going to the bathroom in the middle of a set. It's generally not that hard to plan ahead, after all. Of course, a player can always break the rules, but they risk being penalized for it. As for other coaching, TOs could potentially penalize people who coach others, and if it turns out the player had planned ahead to get coaching (such as if ZeRo got coaching from Pierce), then the player could be penalized as well. Also, let's be real: Even if it's hard to 100% know when to penalize people, the fact that it's banned is going to deter most people from coaching. When was the last time you saw ZeRo call Pierce during a set?
 

Crystanium

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#12
Not only is the stage bad (in competitive play) because of camping,
SmashWiki defines camping as "the act of moving to and staying in an isolated, safe place, such as the far corner of a stage, to evade opponents." What might camping involve? From the same site:

  • Using a spammable projectile, which can also be done to force the opponent to approach.
  • Charging a special move.
  • Deliberately letting time run out, to win via stock/percent/point lead.
  • Waiting for the opponent to approach, usually done with percent or stock lead.
  • In free-for-alls, waiting until the opponents have sustained more damage.
  • Stalling.

We can ignore FFAs and stalling, since the former is not in competitive play, and the latter has no intent of actually fighting. It's pretty unfair to treat spamming as only being performed by projectiles because a lot of characters spam the same attacks, regardless of it being a projectile or not. Still, who has projectiles? Well, I think we can actually think of who is campy. A lot would probably accuse Samus of being spammy, hence the name "Spamus". Characters who may be notorious for spamming projectiles are Duck Hunt, Greninja, Link, Mega Man, Olimar, Pikachu, R.O.B., Robin, Toon Link, and Villager.

Other, less "offensive" spammers include Bowser Jr., Corrin, Dark Pit, Diddy Kong, Dr. Mario, Falco, Fox, King Dedede, Lucario, Lucas, Luigi, Mario, Mewtwo, Mii Gunner, Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Pac-Man, Palutena, Peach, Pit, Ryu, Sheik, Wii Fit Trainer, and Yoshi. That's 35 characters I can think of with projectiles that aren't restricted like Bowser's and Charizard's. That's 60% of the roster that can and probably already does spam projectiles. So, by your words, this percentage makes Sm4sh a bad game because these characters can camp. If you wanted to throw Bayonetta and Cloud in there, that's 64%. (Bayonetta's n-air, which has been used as a way to chip damage.)

What about charging a special move? Some characters need space to do that. By "charging", I'm not going to include someone like Diddy Kong, who needs to charge his Rocketbarrel Boost because that's more of a recovery than it is an attack. Peanut Popgun can be charged as well, but letting go of neutral B will release it. So, what I have in mind here are chargeable specials that can be charged without having to hold any button. This would include characters like Cloud, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Lucario, Mario, Mewtwo, Mii Gunner, Pac-Man, R.O.B., Robin, Samus, Sheik. I included Kirby, since he can copy a few characters with chargeable specials. That's 21%.

The other two on that list are similar, but this can be performed by anyone and is usually performed if the timer is running short. I don't think anyone wants to see a match go for its full six minutes, but it happens. Usually, when it does, people tend to get excited because it becomes a game of trying to see who can outlast who. The one character who receives most of the blame for this is Sonic. Of course, Pac-Man can pull the same stunt. I wanted to show you how many characters can be campy and that camping is a legitimate strategy. You don't have to like it, but to think it makes a game bad in the competitive scene might make you wonder why anyone is even playing Sm4sh at all.

but the tree also leads to some jank,
I heard that the biggest problem with the tree is that anyone who tries to attack the opponent standing on the tree could end up losing because of some OoS attack. There is a way around this. Two ways, actually. The first would be by limiting the duration one can be on that tree. It takes 400 frames for Limit to charge. That's the longest charge any character has in Sm4sh. So, since 400 frames is 6.667 seconds, make the longest duration anyone could have to be up there, 7 seconds. Not that anyone would need that much time to charge anything in such a large stage. The second would be by playing on it as an omega stage. No tree, no ducks, no dog. Honestly, if "some jank" is the problem, then Lylat Cruise is a problem. But, then why not just make Lylat Cruise an omega as well? Lylat Cruise's blast zone also alters based on the way the ship is turning, so . . .

as do the ducks (staling/blocking projectiles).
There is a reason why "counter-picking" exists. It doesn't make sense for someone to get upset or want to make a stage illegal, all because some poor character won. The irony about blocking projectiles is that Duck Hunt was a good stage for Samus. I don't know about you, but ducks never became a problem for me whenever I went to that stage.

The dog is another element that may not be RNG but can still be pretty janky, even top players don't always know when the dog is going to show up
Nor did some dog. Top players not always knowing where the dog is going to show up is their problem. If you're top player, but cannot be cognizant as to where the last duck that was killed ended up dropping, then maybe you're not a top player. Sure, the dog could show up anywhere if a duck isn't hit, but something tells me that's not as much of a problem as people make it out to be.
 
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#14
SmashWiki defines camping as "the act of moving to and staying in an isolated, safe place, such as the far corner of a stage, to evade opponents." What might camping involve?
I am honestly not sure if you're trolling or not. Are you not familiar with circle camping on te Duck Hunt stage? Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_W08CMmYLw&feature=youtu.be&t=6m25s

He could have potentially done that until time ran out or Little Mac did something reckless.

So, by your words, this percentage makes Sm4sh a bad game because these characters can camp.
Strawman.

You don't have to like it, but to think it makes a game bad in the competitive scene might make you wonder why anyone is even playing Sm4sh at all.
Strawman.

I heard that the biggest problem with the tree is that anyone who tries to attack the opponent standing on the tree could end up losing because of some OoS attack. There is a way around this. Two ways, actually. The first would be by limiting the duration one can be on that tree. It takes 400 frames for Limit to charge. That's the longest charge any character has in Sm4sh. So, since 400 frames is 6.667 seconds, make the longest duration anyone could have to be up there, 7 seconds. Not that anyone would need that much time to charge anything in such a large stage.
The second would be by playing on it as an omega stage.
In some scenes any Omega is legal, so they could pick Omega Duck Hunt if they wanted. Still, wouldn't this just be a worse version of Omega Wily Castle? Due to the Z-axis thing?

Honestly, if "some jank" is the problem, then Lylat Cruise is a problem.
Lylat was banned for a bit. Then it got unbanned because having a 3 stage starter has some issues and people prefered dealing with Lylat rather than running a 3 stage starter list.

There is a reason why "counter-picking" exists. It doesn't make sense for someone to get upset or want to make a stage illegal, all because some poor character won.
Duck Hunt wasn't banned because it made some characters too strong, it was banned because of certain issues.
 
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#15
Duck Hunt wasn't banned because it made some characters too strong, it was banned because of certain issues.
Proving once again that the Smash community values "git gud" over enjoyment for the rest of the players who opt not to use top tiers.
 
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Kaze Arashi

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#18
Mii Fighters, Stocks, or Time Limit?
The stock limit is fine. Maybe a higher time to 9 minutes. For Mii fighter, we should find a singular OPTIMAL xxxx Moveset, yet is fair and balanced that it's not overpowered. I think it should be the following:

Size: Small, thin
Moveset: BW- 2122/2222
SF- 3221/1221
GN-3312/1312
 
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#19
I feel the Mii issue needs to be addressed, the characters are being left out if the tier list for pete sake.

We should not have to stay 1111, because lets face it they're not great for all characters, so what do we do optimal customs for each Mii.

B: 2122

SF: 1322

G: 1111 (their specials are ok but feel free to pick more optimal ones not sure about gunner)

But to keep it fair the Miis should stay normal size (medium, medium)
 
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#20
I am honestly not sure if you're trolling or not. Are you not familiar with circle camping on te Duck Hunt stage? Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_W08CMmYLw&feature=youtu.be&t=6m25s

He could have potentially done that until time ran out or Little Mac did something reckless.
Aside from Little Mac and possibly Ganondorf, please tell me of the other 56 characters on the roster who would suffer from this. Also, what is the percentage of Little Mac and possibly Ganondorf in the competitive scene.

You'll have to do more than just say "strawman [sic]" to actually address my points. If dismissing an argument was as easy as blurting out "strawman [sic]" or some other alleged informal fallacy, the argument wouldn't get very far.

In some scenes any Omega is legal, so they could pick Omega Duck Hunt if they wanted. Still, wouldn't this just be a worse version of Omega Wily Castle? Due to the Z-axis thing?
Tell me about this z-axis thing. I've heard about it. I've also seen a video on how to deal with grabbing Bayonetta when one is very close to her without whiffing. Duck Hunt apparently lacks a z-axis, only comprising of an x/y axis, thus making it 2D.

Lylat was banned for a bit. Then it got unbanned because having a 3 stage starter has some issues and people prefered dealing with Lylat rather than running a 3 stage starter list.
"Schadenfreude" describes me regarding those who voted on Twitter in favor of Lylat Cruise, who then get ****ed over on that stage. Quite honestly, I'm not too pleased with the way the tournament rules are. You ban Battlefield, you don't get to play on Dream Land and vice versa. Or that's what I read from the tournament guidelines. You often witness people playing on Smashville or Town & City. That's a lack of diversity, which is odd, since some people praise this game for having such a diverse cast. It's a shame the same can't be said of stage legality.

Duck Hunt wasn't banned because it made some characters too strong, it was banned because of certain issues.
Those issues I addressed, you mean? Certain issues that even Lylat Cruise has? That doesn't sound consistent.
 
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#21
Since Miiverse is down, I was wondering if the Miiverse stage would be legal since there won't be any distractions in the background, nor any inappropriate content.
The whole arguement for Miiverse showing offensive stuff at tournies was kinda null and void to begin with.

Setup at tournies are generally not connected to the internet in the first place.

-


Edit: As for the optimal ruleset for Mii mains that will not fly, although it has for some scenes, but that was usually based on their region's players.

What you guys described was the "golden ruleset" which basically locks players out different moves they may like or found a strategy for but can never use because some players deemed them not viable/useable/weak/optimal/etc.

Some Mii players bite the bullet or are ok with the golden ruleset if it means that they can play their character or if the golden ruleset does not get rid of the moves that they prefer.

I've shoved this document in the 4br threa alot , but just in case a few of you guys have not seen them, you can read them yourselves. It goes over the golden ruleset and much more commonly addressed problems.

https://twitter.com/LeafFC/status/935684210878242816
 
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#22
Duck Hunt being banned for the wrong reason. A technical glitch that may only affect a small percentage of matches versus the blatant advantage given to certain characters.

Considering the Brawl community opted to keep Meta-Knight in the game's tournaments, it really saddens me almost as much as it doesn't surprise me.
 

Kaze Arashi

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#23
I feel the Mii issue needs to be addressed, the characters are being left out if the tier list for pete sake.

We should not have to stay 1111, because lets face it they're not great for all characters, so what do we do optimal customs for each Mii.

B: 2122

SF: 1322

G: 1111 (their specials are ok but feel free to pick more optimal ones not sure about gunner)

But to keep it fair the Miis should stay normal size (medium, medium)
What if they can have them at different weghts but have to keep the 1111 set?
 
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#24
I would consider banning Bayonetta in singles, especially after the end of Mistake vs. Nairo. There can be an entire discussion held in its own thread about this, but right now, that's my vote.

Ban Cloud from doubles.

Ironically, keep Lylat. Turn it into a "pick your poison" counterpick if you risk it. Until we get better stages in the Switch version, it's doubtful we'll get anything better that won't make it difficult to make a fair stage ruleset.
 

Tizio Random

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#25
From most important to least important, what to change:
  • Ban Cloud in doubles
  • Ban/restrict Bayonetta in singles (I want to explain my position but I don't have time right now)
  • Legalize all-custom default Miis
  • Legalize Miiverse as an alternative for BF (not counterpick only like DL)
 

Wintermelon43

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#26
Miis should be legalized with all moves legal, but only from a pick of a certain amount of movesets (to prevent confusion and delays mid-tournaments) and only guest regular size allowed

Ban double Cloud in doubles. One Cloud is fine

While Bayonetta shouldn't be banned quite yet, if she continues to cause as many problems with the community as she does now while not becoming less counterplayed by players and such, she should probably be banned just for the sake of helping the community, since Bayonetta is severly hurting it.
 

A Scrub

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#27

Jaruto

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#28
I feel like Bayo is A weird case
With the brawl comparison, brawl MK was definitely OP, but you could beat him with tactics that are shown to every player, in the game, regardless if you're at a disadvantage, with entry level smash bros skill you can learn how to win against him from practice in game.

But, in the case of Bayo, you have to use a almost hidden, advance technique: SDI. This is one of the only ways to not die at any percent to Bayo's most powerful tool. This is a technique that was not even intended for a normal player getting into smash bros to learn after buying the game and watching the in-game tutorials.
(In the "How to Play" video that plays on the opening screen of smash 4, it teaches how to shield, spotdodge, roll, and air-dodge. Not SDI so you don't instantly lose to a Bayo that has a B button)

AND, a competent player can read SDI. That means that the biggest counter to Bayo's moves can be avoided by the Bayo player

Anyone who is new to smash bros will have to go online to learn an advanced technique to not be instantly losing to that character. In my opinion that's the tell-tale sign that this character should be banned/restricted.

But this is just my opinion. I think of the whole "well if you lose to it, don't get hit by it" but this is a different case than that.

EDIT: I'd rather have this be interpreted as not "ban her now", but more of another way of looking at the situation
 
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Jaruto

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#29

Tizio Random

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#33
I'm kinda confused how you can "restrict" bayo without banning her.
Meta Knight was restricted by ledge grab limit and removing stages he was clearly too powerful. I currently don't know what it is possible to do to restrict Bayo but I bet some solutions can be found. If a nice and not convoluted middle way can be found, it would be better than straight up banning the character.
 

maybe.

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#34
I feel like Bayo is A weird case
With the brawl comparison, brawl MK was definitely OP, but you could beat him with tactics that are shown to every player, in the game, regardless if you're at a disadvantage, with entry level smash bros skill you can learn how to win against him from practice in game.

But, in the case of Bayo, you have to use a almost hidden, advance technique: SDI. This is one of the only ways to not die at any percent to Bayo's most powerful tool. This is a technique that was not even intended for a normal player getting into smash bros to learn after buying the game and watching the in-game tutorials.
(In the "How to Play" video that plays on the opening screen of smash 4, it teaches how to shield, spotdodge, roll, and air-dodge. Not SDI so you don't instantly lose to a Bayo that has a B button)

AND, a competent player can read SDI. That means that the biggest counter to Bayo's moves can be avoided by the Bayo player

Anyone who is new to smash bros will have to go online to learn an advanced technique to not be instantly losing to that character. In my opinion that's the tell-tale sign that this character should be banned/restricted.

But this is just my opinion. I think of the whole "well if you lose to it, don't get hit by it" but this is a different case than that.

EDIT: I'd rather have this be interpreted as not "ban her now", but more of another way of looking at the situation

So basically any character that can combo their opponent is a problem for you? Pretty hard to get out of mario up tilt and up air combos without sDI, definitely can't really get out of zss up air strings without sDI, Luigi combos after a grab? I also believe it kind of stands to reason that it's pretty unlikely you'll be playing against a bayonetta good enough to combo you that hard if you don't know what sDI is, I doubt many completely casual players who aren't taking the time to look up techniques online are grabbing bayo and having insane combo skills their very first try, I think that's something a lot of people take for granted is that it's not like you just press B one time and bayo flies the opponent off the screen for you, it took months of practice to get to a point where I could consistently do bayo combos even on not very good players and most low to mid tier bayo players can be put off very easily by simply using regular DI on the last hit of each move. But to summarize my point is basically that if you have no awareness of sDI or how to apply it then you have much bigger problems than learning specific match ups and are likely losing not because bayo is unfair but because you just aren't skilled enough to implement higher level techniques in general.
 
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#35
Miis should be legalized with all moves legal, but only from a pick of a certain amount of movesets (to prevent confusion and delays mid-tournaments) and only guest regular size allowed

Ban double Cloud in doubles. One Cloud is fine

While Bayonetta shouldn't be banned quite yet, if she continues to cause as many problems with the community as she does now while not becoming less counterplayed by players and such, she should probably be banned just for the sake of helping the community, since Bayonetta is severly hurting it.
Cloud needs to be banned from doubles period. Otherwise, one person will always have a Cloud on their team. The problem here is that not utilizing a Cloud on your team is - at this point - synonymous with holding your team back.

Furthermore, if we attempt a Cloud ban altogether, it would be great to see the results and feedback from the community for the length of the ban. We won't know if it's the right idea till we try. And right now, I'm working with our local TOs to get Cloud banned from doubles for our February event.
 

A Scrub

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#36
Cloud needs to be banned from doubles period. Otherwise, one person will always have a Cloud on their team. The problem here is that not utilizing a Cloud on your team is - at this point - synonymous with holding your team back.

Furthermore, if we attempt a Cloud ban altogether, it would be great to see the results and feedback from the community for the length of the ban. We won't know if it's the right idea till we try. And right now, I'm working with our local TOs to get Cloud banned from doubles for our February event.

Meta Knight's ban never stuck, and Cloud still isn't like that in doubles.

I feel sorry for your region.
 

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#37
So basically any character that can combo their opponent is a problem for you? Pretty hard to get out of mario up tilt and up air combos without sDI, definitely can't really get out of zss up air strings without sDI, Luigi combos after a grab? I also believe it kind of stands to reason that it's pretty unlikely you'll be playing against a bayonetta good enough to combo you that hard if you don't know what sDI is, I doubt many completely casual players who aren't taking the time to look up techniques online are grabbing bayo and having insane combo skills their very first try, I think that's something a lot of people take for granted is that it's not like you just press B one time and bayo flies the opponent off the screen for you, it took months of practice to get to a point where I could consistently do bayo combos even on not very good players and most low to mid tier bayo players can be put off very easily by simply using regular DI on the last hit of each move.
I'm obviously exaggerating when making the "B-button point" and the "Dying at any percent" point to a huge extent. I know how difficult it is to master and even begin to learn all the nuances of maining Bayo and how much practice it involves, both studying online and in training,

Me, you, and many others, know how to counter bayo after playing this game in a more serious sense. I personally picked up diddy as a pocket to punish bayo in the neutral using monkey flip command grab after conditioning her shield. That's not the point i'm making, the point i'm getting across is that for a player to get into smash bros, it makes the skill curve becomes skill cliff, where you have to go online and study how to not get killed by a bayo of some competence, regardless if it's the higher skilled bayos killing you off the top at a wide range of percents, or a mid/low level player being able to have the upper hand and able to rack up 30+ % in a single string with easy access, not even just with WT.

But, in the case of Bayo, you have to use a almost hidden, advance technique: SDI. This is one of the only ways to not die at any percent to Bayo's most powerful tool. This is a technique that was not even intended for a normal player getting into smash bros to learn after buying the game and watching the in-game tutorials.
AND, a competent player can read SDI,
Quoting myself, obviously i don't say that Bayo is unbeatable, far from it, just from any quick glance at high level results, people know how to work around her. What I want to make you think about is a new smash bros player wanting to play this game, regardless if it's their first for glory match, or their first weekly, it makes the game look unappealing from someone who isn't already into the game. They may feel hopeless against a Bayo consistently racking up damage and they'll become discouraged from playing this game and making the gatekeepers of smash 4 for new players, not be other players, but a character(s).

The high level Bayo competition is a discussion that you, and so may others have and will have, but im just trying to give a different perspective to make you think and add a different perspective to this discussion, not a set in stone "OMG PLZ BAN BAYO, THIS IS SO STUPID I LOSE ON FOR GLORY TO HER AND ZERO DIED OFF THE TOP AT EVO AT 40% WTF".
 

maybe.

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#38
I'm obviously exaggerating when making the "B-button point" and the "Dying at any percent" point to a huge extent. I know how difficult it is to master and even begin to learn all the nuances of maining Bayo and how much practice it involves, both studying online and in training,

Me, you, and many others, know how to counter bayo after playing this game in a more serious sense. I personally picked up diddy as a pocket to punish bayo in the neutral using monkey flip command grab after conditioning her shield. That's not the point i'm making, the point i'm getting across is that for a player to get into smash bros, it makes the skill curve becomes skill cliff, where you have to go online and study how to not get killed by a bayo of some competence, regardless if it's the higher skilled bayos killing you off the top at a wide range of percents, or a mid/low level player being able to have the upper hand and able to rack up 30+ % in a single string with easy access, not even just with WT.



Quoting myself, obviously i don't say that Bayo is unbeatable, far from it, just from any quick glance at high level results, people know how to work around her. What I want to make you think about is a new smash bros player wanting to play this game, regardless if it's their first for glory match, or their first weekly, it makes the game look unappealing from someone who isn't already into the game. They may feel hopeless against a Bayo consistently racking up damage and they'll become discouraged from playing this game and making the gatekeepers of smash 4 for new players, not be other players, but a character(s).

The high level Bayo competition is a discussion that you, and so may others have and will have, but im just trying to give a different perspective to make you think and add a different perspective to this discussion, not a set in stone "OMG PLZ BAN BAYO, THIS IS SO STUPID I LOSE ON FOR GLORY TO HER AND ZERO DIED OFF THE TOP AT EVO AT 40% WTF".
I understand what you're saying and my point is that any new player is going to struggle against everyone regardless of what character they're playing against. I understand that bayo may seem especially frustrating to play against because failing to utilize upper level techniques against her will probably result in about a 2 minute set and newer players may appear to be more competitive against other characters and that may be discouraging. But I think the truly dedicated players will continue playing regardless of this. I remember the very first tournament I went to I was just a guy who was like "well I'm better than all my friends so I'm probably awesome" and I got very promptly 2 stocked by a lucario and a Roy of all characters, both fairly low tier characters but both of them made me look equally as silly as playing against a bayo of similar skill probably would have. I think this may speak more to an issue within the smash community that it's hard for new players to get going in general because competitive smash players are really good and really dedicated and it's really hard to get experience playing against good players without having to take your L's. So I think while bayo may appear especially oppressive to newer players, and it may be discouraging to get instantly two stocked by getting flown off the top because you don't know how to handle it, the truly dedicated players will take that and go practice even harder and figure it out while the players with the wrong attitude will be weeded out regardless of whether or not bayo exists in the game.
 
Joined
May 22, 2007
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OgnarPliskin
#39
Meta Knight's ban never stuck, and Cloud still isn't like that in doubles.

I feel sorry for your region.
Because MK's ban never stuck is why I left Brawl.

As for Cloud, he is legit the doubles meta for most prominent teams in our region. I'll keep using him till he gets banned since I refuse to hold my partner back for not using a character I honestly enjoy, who happens to also be quite good.
 

Mr. G&W

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
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Mr.G-W
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#40
Since Miiverse is down, I was wondering if the Miiverse stage would be legal since there won't be any distractions in the background, nor any inappropriate content.
For live tournaments, that is a possibility.
 
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