Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Samochan]

As shown clearly in the game, milk drink and softboiled can only restore energy levels of pokemon and those moves can also be used outside of the battle to other pokemons is because they can be shared unlike recover. But note this, each time you do it, like softboiled, you lose the same amount of energy aka hp you use to restore anothers. If the aspect of healing wounds would be true, then the other pokemon would lol take the other's wounds via this method, which is clearly not the case and impossible to happen with these recovery moves, they're not pain split.

They cannot revive a fainted pokemon either, which means they can only be used purely to restore energy such as fresh water does, aka food or potions. It hasn't ever been shown they can cure faint status, status effects or something that would've caused the pokemon to be fainted in the first place. While we do not know for certain if pokemon ever get wounded in battles, even more reason for these moves to actually HEAL wounds to be ridiculous notion. Miltank milk is nutritious... but it's not a magic potion lol. It's milk and chansey's eggs are just eggs and whomever else's like mew using softboiled on another pokemon has.

Energy =/= wounds. Person or animal can be exhausted or even knocked out without being wounded or ill. >_> Besides if PT is wounded in any matchup in any way, chances are he's already dead from the blow or totally incapacitated. He's just a normal no powered teenager lol. Death, even if revived also means he just lost, so it's kinda lol motion of ever even considering milking some miltank in the middle of a fight when samus can blast his brains out in a millisecond. >_> Sure he can haz one poke in the field like shown on hgss and try to protect himself but hey, piercing weapons are piercing lol and weapons of mass destructions are something neither him or his pokes can survive easily.

One thing I'd like to say tho, that PT can apparently, if he wishes, take out all his pokemon out of their pokeballs at one time for things such as when a cameraman/himself takes a picture. So basically when he battles, he's obviously ONLY limited by pokeleague battling rules of single or double battles. This is no pokeleague or official trainer battle or anything of the sort, he doesn't need to even play fair if he doesn't wish to if it's about winning. He obviously would need to command his pokes, but 6 is better in the field than 1 right? However this is just one tibzit which might not apply, as trainer obv can start normal battles with 1 poke already out and immediately sending another one. But he can have all his pokemon out of their balls if he wishes so, just like he has his first in the party pokemon.

 

[_clinton]

Just because _clinton types down huge walls of text to try to get across some ambiguous point, and that people are actually responding to this with even more walls of text, which causes _clinton to reply with ever larger walls of text.

Oh, I’m totally being ambiguous with things like Lucas’ power or god power in general, god the game’s script totally isn’t clear that it is his power. Invulnerability and the BS that it has is the only thing that comes close to the word “ambiguous” in just games itself (do you people really think they are serious about it still when you got me just showing proof that the stuff isn’t “unbeatable?”)

What?

There are moves out there that cure status effects and such, showing off proof that pokemon can target more than something like HP.

I know Ho-Oh did. Give me an example of something else. And don't type a huge reply, I don't enjoy reading through huge replies.

Well for starters I don't see why you don't think things like Palkia, Dialga, and such couldn't do it as well. However for a another pokemon that could revive stuff:
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/psydex/385/general
I wonder why he couldn’t use that to repair himself?

He doesn't.

Good then, so why is he beating characters like Sonic or Falcon that can smack him around at the speed of sound+?

Where? In his eggs?

Why does the “where” matter? You don’t see me caring about how pokemon can hold items in PMD do you?

Anyway, you pause the game, select a box that holds an item you want, and it takes affect right away. Mario world 2: Yoshi’s Island is on the SNES and the GBA, try the item system out yourself. It isn’t that hard to earn items. Just use the bandit mini game code to fight some bandits on the games and earn a few items.

Cause Pikachu can still use high leveled electric attacks. <_< And no mather how hard you try you can't pass that of as game mechanics.

And for some reason those high leveled electric attacks that it has are pretty much the same as the high leveled electrical attacks every other pokemon can learn. So, what does like a good % of the pokemon having like a higher attack base than Pikachu say again?

Still of course I like how you think a single Pikachu being able to create a storm with a move even though the dex says that you need a group of them to get anything at all isn’t just proof that the game mechs. for pokemon are messed up.

And with help from Mario & Luigi in his arm muscle.

So, did you avoid the part where in the game script the game gives clear hints that Bowser isn’t at his best and that is why he needed help like that? (Plus the fact that he had his body taken over in the 1st place should tell you he is being limited)

Around the same level as Link perhaps. Who shouldn't end up too low either.

Well, when the things in low tier consist of characters like ROB and such, one has to wonder.

You have proof of Bowser being able to turn Ike into a baby? Or a mouse?

He has used stuff like AR and polymorph magic before in case you couldn’t tell from me saying it happened in Mario World with the Yoshi’s, Super Mario Brothers 3 with the kings, and several other games have shown it off,

What is going to prevent him from using it now if he wanted to? Maybe you should find some proof of Ike being protected from that sort of stuff.

In this game, game mechanis really don't make sence.

Well at least you agree with me on that and how they are just a forced limitation in that case.

Ganon is a demon. And yes, normally demons are lower in power than Gods, but he's packing God power still pretty much.

Because the ToP is so much god power, it isn’t just a sliver of it at all. However, for as much of a demon Ganondorf is, he sure did start off human enough huh? (Guess that should say something)

Din didn't create the world no, but she did shaped/ created the earth as in... you know ground and stuff. And fire to, most likely.

And one of the other gods made the laws of that land so that the fire and **** could be there in the 1st place (you like gravity or time in general? Well thank the ToW for that one in the Zelda world ok).

And one of the other gods made life on all that stuff, and gave form to the stuff (If you think the ToC has issues with competing with the other two, I think you are wrong, just saying)

Are you gonna try to deny that to?

Ok, the thing I’m doing is not “denying” that Ganondorf has some god power ok. I’m saying it doesn’t amount for **** compared to what the gods have already been shown to do for that series and that the amount of power he has (ToP) is very small compared to the real thing and its only seems impressive, but in truth where he is using it at in that world is something like this most of the time that ends up showing off his stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEuY8KRXfVw&feature=related

So, what I’m saying is that vs. something that actually has some power as well usually ends up having him lose but him having a track record of 99 losses 0 wins vs. some kid who “can’t even talk” must suck for Ganondorf, just one more loss and he gets to have a helmet though like Glass Joe!

Get the facts about what I’m saying right please.

No I don't. I still believe that the Black Knight just warped out of the castle. It seems by far the most logical of everything.

So, what is his unit like in RD? Just wondering, because it would be neat to know?

I'm still passing that off as comical relief. Where else has Mario been able to throw such heavy weights as castles?

The fact that he throws giants around also isn’t enough?

No, I'm saying that Bullet Bills actually aren't that fast.

Oh and how come? Mario clears large stretches of land in only a few seconds a good % of the time, it seems clear that they only seem so slow because Mario is so fast, just like how things are in Sonic.

So do other characters in platform games.

I’m pretty sure something like DK, Conker’s Bad Fur Day, tons of Zelda games, Castlevania seems to, and stuff like Another World disagrees with you.

How could the Kremlings burry those bananas in the first place? As they were actually trying to get away as fast as possible.

Yeah, and as they were getting away, they chances are while dropping a ton of them (because they did), others kicked them around because they were grouped together, and stuff like them being “buried” happened.
BTW ever see something like this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html

A group of bipedal crocodiles fleeing the area of a soon to be very pissed off great ape chances are would bury them.

I say that says something about DK's strenght.

You bringing up DK slamming fruit out of trees wants me to post this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ogQ0uge06o

Anyway, I don’t see why you couldn’t shake a small tree bearing fruit and stuff like that.

Like Mario or Wario don't need a little help from an item or something sometimes. <_< Most things can still be pulled out of the ground by DK himself. Sometimes he just only needs to jump from something high to achieve it.

So, where did item use come up from this part from me?

Hell they aren’t the only things buried in the ground, because there are items in that game that are buried hard enough on purpose to the point where you can’t just unearth them with a ground slap, you need a bit more force really.

Pretty sure you saying “sometimes he just only needs to jump from something high to achieve it” was me just saying he needed a bit more force to get it out really.

Play DKC again please.

I think you need to play DKC again actually, because I wasn’t talking about a “Rambi Crate,” I was talking about those golden animal tokens (note how I said token as well) you can find in the 1st game and was talking about several of their hiding spots like “a pile of leaves and dirt.”

Again, you make it sound way more impressive than it actually is. What would you say about Barrel blasting from DKC or anything if you liked those games I always think.

How is being shot out of a cannon impressive? Both Mario and Wario do that as well and unlike DK have used themselves to bust up more things than just “bonus rooms,” hell Sonic has as well.

Ike could still damage Ashera without Yune.

Yes, and she wasn’t just lolling at that so called damage. Plus he wasn’t totally also using weapons that were under the goddess’ blessing as well.

Yeah, still Ike should beat him imo.

And why?

What God in FE6? The dark dragon maybe? I told you that before when argueing why Roy should beat ZZS. <_<

You didn’t tell me ****, I knew about Roy’s weapons before I said they would tie.

Again, why on earth do you think she couldn’t disarm someone like Roy? If his sword is where he is packing his power, and she is packing a stun gun, all she really needs is one good shot and she can disarm him from his power in general!

What is so hard about stealing weapons!?

I don't think Ness has ever created anyhting except for his dream world. Lucas didn't recreate the world either, he just released the power of those Needles. And I don't think that it became Lucas' own power after the end either.

The game script doesn’t agree with you and you thinking the power doesn’t belong to Lucas, but whatever I’ve only shown the canon script like 50 times.

Ness didn’t need to create anything but “his” dream world which allowed him to end up going to the center of creation (Eden) and absorb that area, oh and I’m sorry you think him creating a world based off his feelings and such is a small thing, you are aware that it was “real” as far as hints go right? It was made with the power of the earth he was absorbing for starters. He was able to stop the “end of everything” in the 1st place, Lucas had to undo the “end of everything” by releasing the power of the earth.

In some scenario yes, ZSS would be able to beat Link and Roy yeah, but I think 80% of the time, Link or Roy would beat her, which would result in Link and Roy winning the match up.

How is it 80% of the time for a loss? She has a long rang taser and is super human already w/o the suit.

How?

Well besides the fact that Mario is linked to a bunch of star children who become worlds as seen in SMG and the power that they are around and that he is clearly seen using in some way or so, he also has things like the crystal stars from TTYD.

Of course he is somehow always around a bunch of weapons of world ****ing power besides the thing I just said (pure hearts and the chaos heart, the star rod and the spirits, star road, and so on) in case you haven’t notice that already for his canon.

Yet, Link is also pretty **** good with a sword already before he actually gets one.

Yes, he totally is good with a sword in every game, here are three examples off the top of my head:
-TP doesn’t just totally blow your theory out of the water when he gets his *** kicked by that “old hero wolf spirit thingy” ^_^
-WW doesn’t have him just showing proof that he has been training in the sword in general in some way.
-Zelda 2 doesn’t just have that Link learning sword tricks from a master or two.

In fact I’m pretty sure stuff like harder foes that mainly use better weapons that show up in all of the Zelda games clearly gives the idea that the Link hero is usually a novice in swordsmanship, you know because it is suppose to be good, Link isn’t like Ganondorf in that all of his fights except one sometimes are very one-sided, he is suppose to start off as someone just “normal” that is why he is wearing nothing except his clothes at the start of each game usually.

He most likely always was a bit stronger than the most average humans even before he started his adventure.

So, how come he can’t lift grass out of the ground in OoT again or bomb flowers like how a normal little kid should be?

Fire Emblem games always have this typical story of ancient heroes who fought the same sort of enemy before with the sacred weapons. The whole concept of Fire Emblem is that you chose who of the fighters you get to become the next of these heroes.

Roy uses swords, so logically he only gets the legendary swords. Note how he can still use Durandal even though it didn't pick him as it's owner?

Yep and in order to use Durandal in that game you sort of have to have an S class ranking or are a master with the weapon instead. And I don’t know why you would have Roy use that sword if you could give it to someone else.

Whatever though, the sword did chose them as a group.

Simply said, no ZSS would just lose to Link.

How, just because of Magic?

Ganondorf never took damage from Link's bombs, why would Samus' missiles hurt him now then? Keeping realism outof this of coarse. Cause surely a real life missile would blow appart a real life guy in a armour.

Keeping realism out of this of course I’m totally going to avoid the fact that Samus’ bombs blow up a large area to the point where after spreading out the stuff gets flung around into the start of the blast and Link’s bombs are **** by comparison.

Argue with others please. Ganon vs Samus is soon to come anyways.

Fine.

Ganondorf is simply different.

Or he is winning because of clear favoritism for him in this thread by a large bulk of the users.

Wasn't it noted that Ganon wasn't at full power in those games?

Ah no, the thing that was noted about Ganon in those games is that he came back sort of crazy due to having no mind, which somehow automatically made him weaker for no reason given from the other side even though the triforce was clearly in play in those areas because guess what Link was packing on his arm/what was the area anyway?

Yet Young Link never returned,

Yes, and Ganondorf is totally the one who caused that, not Zelda at the end of the game splitting the time line by throwing that Link back in time because she wasn’t aware of what could happen/didn’t want to put out to a guy who had the mind of a 10 year old (another thing about the game that totally makes sense, he isn’t physically ready to take the sword yet they don’t mind trapping him in a room for 7 years with no apparent mental growth given).

You go too deep into the game story. I don't know at what part of the game your talking about here now.

Ganondorf at the end of LttP flies back to the pyramid and the room containing the triforce is right behind him! So, why does he fight Link if he could just wish him away instead? He had enough time to use it if he wanted to!

Why do you keep taking Yoshi's Island DS' canon like 'Star Childeren' for the reason why Mario and Luigi are.. like that?

Well, besides the fact that it is the only Mario game out there giving a reason for why the characters are special, as in it gives a reason to why Mario and Luigi can stop Bowser for more reasons than just none!

I don't really mind cause DK is one of those 'Star Childeren' as well but I think it's a weak excuse.

Oh I’m sorry, so why is Mario special again if you don’t like Yoshi’s Island DS’s reason? I don’t know about you, but I prefer more reasons than just none!

How again exactly?

Because he was using the star power on that station (that he is linked to because he is a star child of a different type) as a means make weapons and things like a Dark Matter reactor, a star reactor, and a bunch of other weapons that were being powered by the energy of the star kids (I mean things like the Comet Observatory was made by the main Luma Mario is traveling with in the 1st place in that game) which he had plans of also using it to rule like a god at the universe at the center of it with Peach at his side.

Yeah but it isn't as deep as in Zelda.

Lol, how is the back story for Mario not as deep as Zelda’s?

Yeah, so what's the deal with Pikachu and Tingle then? You would deny their own games? I personally like the thought of these characters being able to do more than their main games suggest.

The thing game’s like that are called happens to be “spin off,” and if spin offs are going to be used it would be nice to make sure they don’t **** with the canon of the main product 1st that we are talking about and considering it to be canon in general you know.

So what your basically saying is that you should imagine the Kirby vs Meta Knight fights in like... 1000 x the speed? Then yes, they need to beat Link and the likes. You have any proof of this? Cause so far I'm not sure what to believe. There are simply too many ways to look at it.

Sakurai has said that MK’s sword speed is being flung around at the speed of sound or so:
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/metaknight.html

He overwhelms enemies with his mach-speed sword!

I mean why would the guy who made Kirby not be a credible source for talking about his own material?

Kirby would be even smaller right? But then why you think Mario is beating Kirby again if Kirby is so fast and strong?

Maybe it is because Mario is super fast and strong as well for starters as well.

What answer does Meta Knight have to the Light Arrows then?

Why would a “holy weapon” harm a fighter who isn’t a bad guy/evil in the 1st place? He is using a holy sword as well you know.

Relevitely, those fire balls would be a lot smaller to Link. Who'd made be able to bounce it back with his shield attack from TP. The Great Spin is pretty **** powerful dude, thats why it only works when Link is on full health.

What about the whole electric energy field, or general tornados in general/those other moves in Kirby Super Star that became his special moves in SSBB?

When has Meta Knight fought in such a great war as the Fire Emblem characters did?

Ah, let us see. He has declared war on Dream Land with the Halberd in the 1st place, he has helped Kirby many times at destroying the demon of the week, and for the anime example in which Sakurai had a pretty big part in making in the 1st place he is one of the few survivors of a great galactic affecting war. I’m pretty sure galactic war vs. some super evil is for sure going to count on the idea of “great war.”

I'd like to know now, who exactly do you think Meta Knight could beat, and who not?

Samus in her suit is going to get him, Mario, Luigi, Wario, Bowser will IMO, Kirby of course ^_^, PK users and that one very special pokemon, pokemon trainer, Sonic,

If all they had to do was beat the ship I would include the Star Fox characters and Falcon as well but they don’t.

Fox or Falco has lost to Meta Knight before iirc.

Well, they can fly at the speed of sound+ but I don’t see them stopping MK on the ground.

I don't think Mario or Luigi would be able to beat Meta Knight to be honest. Or at least, not the Halberd.

What makes you think they couldn’t fly on there and stuff like that?

Well, I didn't know. Hmmm, yeah so Meta Knight wins now... Kinda makes the things I posted before defending Toon Link and Link pointless. >_>

Then you wouldn't disagree that DK is basically immortal in DK: Jungle Beat no?

Well, him being immortal vs. a bunch of apes totally makes sense when he is the king banana among them.

Yeah but Magic Armour still makes Toon Link invincible to damage. Thats why I think he should beat Meta Knight, without the Halberd.

Oh yes, because you having one tool that is just not really talked about at all in the games he totally wins because of how broad the description in it is, it’s not like total BS at all.

I personally don't think Lucas owns the power of the needles. Giygas isn't a god, he's more like the devil. Very powerful nonetheless.

What makes you think Lucas doesn’t own a power that calls him master again? Plus Giygas is more of a tragic figure “god” actually; Porky is far more evil than he is in case you could never tell.

Never said I didn't. But I'm more impressed by Samus' skill. Though, that mostly comes from Metroid: Other M, I admit.

Sorry, but when they are part of an 4 person army that is taking on foes that clearly have the by far greater advantage in so many areas like technology, number, and such (unlike Samus, who while has the number issue she has the technology advantage by far).

I disagree here.

Lucas remakes the world, Ness absorbs a creation power, and they certainly can do it.

Why doesn't make Pokemon leveling up make sence, but Earthbound/Mother's do?

Ness and Lucas start out as normal children, what part of that makes you think they don’t “get experience” or stuff like that? What else besides leveling up makes sense?

Pokemon have stuff like IVs and EVs that pretty much show off their potential/training and that stuff, and level really doesn’t make sense when like I said already on how you can find super powerful Pidgey along with low level ones!

I sitll don't agree with your vision.

Right, why don’t you agree with the thing when I’m just looking at the definition of PK in the 1st place and for what it does?

I don't think that power belonged to Lucas anyway. Or at least, that he can create meteor showers like that.

So, why did they come then?

So you mean, PK Flash was actually good in EarthBound? Never noticed...

PK Flash had a chance at taking out several bosses in one shot, and when foes used the beta level it certainly was important to have some protection from it.

Yeah, like you follow rules?

How am I not following the rules for the thread?

God you don’t see me saying that Lucas is fighting with Kumatora, Duster, Boney, and stuff like that do you?

Not to run away no, but to do damage from a range so that Wario can't counter attack.

How is he going to get away from Wario when Wario has more flight options, and stuff like that?

Diddy would still have his barrel jetpack after the Gyrocopter gets destroyed. But.

And Wario has more flight options than just his plane if it gets destroyed.

Then what can Wario do with it? Diddy actually went on dangerous missions with the Gyrocopter and most likely has better handling than Wario with it. He also has bombs.

Wario has been shown to pilot tons of vehicles besides just his plane, he is able to drive things like submarines, high speed chases like that 2nd boss in Wario Land Shake it, and the like. He specialized in many forms of transportation, you saying Diddy has better handling of his stuff is BS.

Makes me wonder if you actually played DKC, Jungle Beat and Jungle Climber instead of watching videos.

Lol, I own DKC, DKC2, DKC3, DKL, DKL2, DKL3, DK64, and a certain ****y music game that uses those bongos for starters as far as games go. Oh and like I said DK64 was the last one I truly played and beat fully. Oh and I of course have proof of all owning all of those games and beating them fully. Fun fact, flying Pigs aren’t impressive to me for starters (you’ll get a cookie if you can guess what flying Pigs have to do with DK).

Of course when I say that the DK series has always sort of been crazy and such I’m not kidding.

Besides, K.Rool was pretty much able to take over the universe in Jungle Climber with the power of the Crystal Bananas.

Yes, this totally makes sense, so how come he took such as step as far as villains go again? This is part of the reason for why I don’t see JC as being really serious, I mean when did the need to want DK’s bananas end up becoming universe control? It totally just seems as serious as far as story goes like those other games with Tingle and Pikachu.

Though, that could be said about lots of games on the GameCube (aka, people complaining about Mario Sunshine, Wind Waker and hell even Metroid Prime).

Well you could say DKJB is in a separate canon.

King of Swing is the least serious yeah. But still, DK shows feats of strenght like throwing rocks into mountains to create openings, Going Bananas, tossing around a gaint skeleton sea dragon, ect. I liked this game very much, especially after Jungle Beat.

Jungle Climber is actually more serious, cause K.Rool gets those Crystal Bananas which make him and his Kremlings giant, and super strong. Yeah sure it's not all that serious at all, but then again, so isn't Bowser's Inside Story for example.

You know when you aren’t saying the Mario RPG series aren’t serious part of me still takes them for more credit because the “world+” threat is put in them like in the main games.

Does he do this naturally, without items or such?

Wario gets his super dash from a machine in WLSI, but he was picking speeds like that for the 1st time in Wario Land 4. I don’t see why his speed isn’t serious, the machine is just meant to sort of be a forced limit on game play like those barrels that hold power ups in DK64, you don’t see me saying Diddy Kong has to jump into a barrel to use his jet pack do you?

The guitar would likely still be effective here. Sure it wouldn't OHKO Wario, but still greatly damage him.

Why would it greatly damage him? Because Diddy plays it so bad that it’s painful to hear? God, it’s not like Wario hasn’t dealt with a foes using sound to screw with him and destroy the areas he was in.

That cutting him in half is more comic relief I think. Surely you don't really think that Wario would be able to survive that? If he can, he should be on top. Good luck with convincing everyone with that. =)

Right, because I don’t have proof of Wario having reaction abilities in general that show him repairing his body when it is destroyed.
-Fire burns him to dust
-Becoming a zombie or a vampire require him being destroyed when he comes back
-Flat Wario, from being crushed in general
-Bouncy Wario from being partially crushed
-Ice Wario, ends up with him breaking and reforming at the end of it
-Little Wario, proof that “age regression” to a certain point wouldn’t be a big deal for him to deal with

Of course I’ve never said that he could do it an unlimited number of times w/o break. Even the toughest cloth will break after enough time and stress. However, for what he is, he is showing enough proof that he can laugh at death for a long time w/o a break, but then his recovery potions come into effect and lol at him being beat up.

Yes, DK gets hit by fire and lava even in Jungle Beat. And is able to shrug it off easily, same with ice which usually freezes him (for the effect mostly I think).

Does he repair his body when hit by something that would flat out destroy it?

But especially in Jungle Beat you see how strong DK really is. In the fights between the other "Kongs" you see his skill in dodging, blocking and finding weak spots easily. As well as amazingly fast punch work. I don't think Wario has any specific fighting style, but DK has experience in fighting the styles of karate, 'ninja' and sumo wrestling.

Right, because Wario has never been shown to punch really fast, dodge moves, and smacking weak spots, god he can swing from bars, vines, and such as well, remember how fast he was moving when he was in the 3rd boss of Wario Land Shake it. He is by far more nimble and athletic than what he looks like.

Creating a **** huge shockwave of sound by just clapping your hands, when exactly has Wario done this?

He has created a huge shockwave of sound just by punching the ground hard enough.

And constantly?

In Wario Land 3 he can just slam the ground repeatedly (ground pound) and make shockwaves if you need it.

If you seriously doubt DK's strenght, how come he can still do all these things?

So, how come he hasn’t had another game showing off those skills again? Or another game showing off those skills that he 1st only made sound by playing something like his bongos?

Take his skill, with his speed, power and equipment like he has in DK64 and I think personally DK should be able to beat Wario, or draw with him. Which is the most logical outcome really, a draw.

Power is the only thing DK has close to Wario actually, if you disagree please show me running across water and such. Equipment, speed, durability, and stuff Wario has DK beat.

Implying Wario can even get around DK's Sound Wave attack? Unless Wario is sound proof somehow, DK can easily keep him at bay as long as he likes. And if it's allowed to 'merge' games again, he can throw orange grenades while he keeps Wario at range.

Wario isn’t bothered by sound, already posted that picture of that foe just starting to break apart the castle he was in with sound and Wario just busted him apart.

Plus as far as fighting goes anyway Wario when faced with foes usually just creates openings in case you never noticed how he fought some foes like the Shake King. So when DK is keeping him a bay with sound or oranges what makes you think Wario couldn’t just cause a shake and knock DK off balance then beat him to a pulp while in that time?

Well fine, have it your way. I want DK to have Strong Kong now, as it works similar. Both characters need to find a barrel / box to activate the power, therefore I say they both shouldn't have it. But yeah, DK still wins.

Yes, and you certainly know how I feel about invulnerability and how that stuff is BS, but hey I’m at least willing to think that after a long while Wario’s regenerative ability would not work as well despite it not being shown in canon really. How come I’m the only one who finds the idea of invulnerability to be BS?

Creating storms?

Yeah, how about looking at the treasure Wario finds. Wario Land 3 has a nice list but here is the storm starter:
http://www.mariowiki.com/Bank_of_the_Wild_River#Grey_Chest:_The_Trident

I'm thinking Diddy would still dodge mayority of Wario's moves yes, as shown by his incredible agility in DKC2.

Right, I’m sure I’ve seen Diddy move fast enough to run across water. Oh and saying DK resists lava, what do you mean? I’m sure him touching it in things like DK64 kills him most of the time w/o Strong Kong (and that has some limits as well).

There's not too much start up time for the Ice Arrows... And how can't Toon Link see Snake? Cause of some cloaking device?

Yeah, notice how Snake enters a fight in Brawl? His cloaking device breaks (doesn’t happen in games, just letting you know) showing that he has just been there in general. **** he also has a suit that lets him blend into the background, **** stealth is his specialty. Unless you have some psychic power, special vision, and so on he has ways of evading you.

Only if Diddy can still make Wario implode. =)

I like how you keep on thinking Wario is stupid but not even giving any proof to it. God why don’t you just try that argument on Samus and other characters see how it lasts:

Oh Diddy will use going bananas to avoid all of Samus’ damage moves, then totally feed her a orange bomb, which she will eat because she is “trusting in nature” or something BS like that because the GF was making Metroids in MF!

Anyway, Snake can actually use playboy as a weapon in the games, you can leave them out for guards to see and get distracted by them or use them yourself and have Snake relax and calm him down if he is under stress.

Are you saying Tink isn’t curious yet at that age? ^_^ (BTW I wasn’t really serious about using the thing, I just wanted to show you what Snake can do to get around)

Toon Link still packs a lot of weapons. Like the Skull Hammer and such.

And Snake can survive being stomped on by a giant machine or cooked in a microwave room.

No damage is still no damage. Doesn't mather if you fire a rocket launcher or a nuke, Toon Link will only fall over from it. That's why this matchup is also quite difficult. Realism vs fantasy.

What makes you think that Snake has to let Tink get up if he falls over from it?

Only Star Fox game I ever played.

You have no idea how much I hate the game to be fair.

Now that I'm further with the post, I realise that Ike's 'blessing' should be much the same like how the Black Knight was represented in Path of Ridiance. Seeing as Ashnard could still be hurt by things as Rexbolt, the Laguz Kings and Nasir (or Ena) I would argue that Ike still wouldn't be 100% invincible.

Thank you!

So basically... Fox > Snake?

Well, yes because while Snake has a bunch of weapons of mass destruction on him, Fox has more insane **** with him.

 

[PowerBomb]

Oh, I’m totally being ambiguous with things like Lucas’ power or god power in general, god the game’s script totally isn’t clear that it is his power. Invulnerability and the BS that it has is the only thing that comes close to the word “ambiguous” in just games itself (do you people really think they are serious about it still when you got me just showing proof that the stuff isn’t “unbeatable?”)

Sorry, it was just a joke about the long walls of text everyone is now typing. It just stretches the page and it makes it irritating to browse through.

There are moves out there that cure status effects and such, showing off proof that pokemon can target more than something like HP.

You mean like Refresh? Or in the case of Foe v Foe, Wake Up Slap/Smellingsalt?

Well for starters I don't see why you don't think things like Palkia, Dialga, and such couldn't do it as well. However for a another pokemon that could revive stuff:
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/psydex/385/general
I wonder why he couldn’t use that to repair himself?

Palkia and Dialga haven't been shown to bring stuff back from the dead. Arceus has been shown to do some random **** in PMD (Explorers of Sky). Dialga brings you back from the land of time failures or w/e.

What do you mean by Jirachi?

 

[_clinton]

Sorry, it was just a joke about the long walls of text everyone is now typing.

Oh, ok then. If I knew how to box it up and not make it be as long I would.

You mean like Refresh? Or in the case of Foe v Foe, Wake Up Slap/Smellingsalt?

Yeah things like that pretty much.

Palkia and Dialga haven't been shown to bring stuff back from the dead.

Yet they can create/destroy planes of existence and stuff like that, I'm pretty sure life is on the lower end of the power charts when it comes to things like that, **** Palkia has control over space, well just restore the space of the trainer and Dialga could just rewrite time in the trainers area to make it so it would never happen in the 1st place.

Plus when smaller pokemon can do things like purify dirty water or bring life back to plants and such with it's breath, it makes you compare small things like that to bigger things.

What do you mean by Jirachi?

Jirachi can grant wishes, get it?

 

[PowerBomb]

Yeah things like that pretty much.

I don't know what Smellingsalt is (maybe some kind of rough massage to people with bad backs -> paralysis curing?), but Wake Up Slap is simple. Slap someone in the face a few times and they will wake up, right?

And Pokemon with Refresh only cure themselves with it; not many Pokemon learn it anyway.

Yet they can create/destroy planes of existence and stuff like that, I'm pretty sure life is on the lower end of the power charts when it comes to things like that, **** Palkia has control over space, well just restore the space of the trainer and Dialga could just rewrite time in the trainers area to make it so it would never happen in the 1st place.

Plus when smaller pokemon can do things like purify dirty water or bring life back to plants and such with it's breath, it makes you compare small things like that to bigger things.

You realize it costs Dialga a lot of energy/time to make the trainer appear again, right? Revives are banned anyway, aren't they? Besides, what's stopping the opponent from just killing PT again? If they did it with ease before, they could probably do it with ease again. Each Pokemon is 'unique', they can all (or most, at least) do something unique to their 'species' of Pokemon (lawl species, taxonomic fail). Venusaur can't breathe life into plants, Sceptile can. It's because they are DIFFERENT. Same with Palkia/Dialga/Arceus. That's like saying that because Mewtwo has 154 base sp. att and Dialga has 150 base sp. att, suddenly Mewtwo has access to time control powers that Dialga is ONLY said to have. It doesn't work that way in Pokemon.

Jirachi can grant wishes, get it?

Not if the trainer is dead
No one to say 'I wish for _____'.
Jirachi can only grant wishes when it just wakes up, anyway. (I hope this is right, been a while)

 

[Samochan]

And jirachi is said to awaken only once in thousand years. So lol.

And wishing to win is banned anyway, mwah.

Not amusing however to type arguments here that get ignored so people can argue about things that were solved further. <_<

I don't think we ever banned the usage of items for trainer thought. Basically a loss would be trainer losing all his pokemon so he has no pokemon left, aka whiteout such as in games or when the trainer himself is incapable of fightning. Using revives to a pokemon to revive it when other pokes can still fight is not banned and should be a legit tactic, as is item usage for pokemon trainer. Pokes are basically his tools here and using revive is no more hp healing than super potion is, cept it revives fainted status and is actually classified in your inventory as status heal. It'll take him a turn of commanding his pokemons thought so it's not as if it's risk free or anything. And if all he does is try and keep reviving his pokes when opponent just ohkos em, he'll put himself in danger very quickly.

In any case, if trainer gets killed or otherwise incapacitated once, he has already lost. There is no point of reviving the trainer and the pokemons, while they can use moves and such on their own, would most likely suffer a panic attack or something and would need to be ordered to even try such a thing. So this "bailing trainer out of death" is completely moot point if he already lost the match the moment he got killed. <_<

 

[PKNintendo]

Pokemon Trainer Red is wounded by Samus and Palkia looms over her.

Pokemon Trainer Red: What are you doing, finish her! Use...
(Faints)

Palkia: (use what? USE WHAT GO****IT)
it just stands there

Samus:?!?

 

[ElPanandero]

Hey...what about Follow Me as a tactic. Doesn't that move draw all attacks to a single pokemon, Clefairy for example, allowing his other poke's to do whatever the hell they want?

EDIT: Sorry if I F'd the conversation at all...

 

[PowerBomb]

Hey...what about Follow Me as a tactic. Doesn't that move draw all attacks to a single pokemon, Clefairy for example, allowing his other poke's to do whatever the hell they want?

EDIT: Sorry if I F'd the conversation at all...

Doesn't help against an AoE attack

 

[ElPanandero]

...AoE?

Is that area of attack?

 

[_clinton]

And Pokemon with Refresh only cure themselves with it; not many Pokemon learn it anyway.

So, did you not remember that I said earlier that there were things like Heal Bell or Aromatherapy? In fact the various pokemon that learn things like Aromatherapy in the 1st place are only learning it because of what things like the Pokedex says as well about them; note how Meganium a pokemon that breathes life into plants also learns AT, Shaymin is just overkill as far as what it does to restore plant life, and look at how Parasect learns it as well (and it's spores can be both bad and good)?

And plenty of the pokemon that learn it by breeding sort of made sense as well, Clefable is a fairy from space that absorbs things like moonlight in the 1st place as energy for things like flight, Blissey is an awesome thing anyway of course.

It's because they are DIFFERENT. Same with Palkia/Dialga/Arceus.

So because you think they are different that automatically makes you think that there aren’t pokemon who can do the same things as others but just on a grander scale of them?

So the fact that I just pointed out that Shaymin can turn an entire dead land into a field of flowers (and this thing is seen in game for the 4th gen, just letting you know), as in “revive the land” doesn’t mean **** compared to Meganium’s life breath which is clearly on a smaller scale compared to Shaymin?

That's like saying that because Mewtwo has 154 base sp. att and Dialga has 150 base sp. att, suddenly Mewtwo has access to time control powers that Dialga is ONLY said to have. It doesn't work that way in Pokemon.

Well considering how in the past I’ve said that the base speed of pokemon doesn’t make sense because you clearly have things like Pidgeot, or Garchomp around (oh and along with Latios) yet things are faster than them, you think I wouldn’t be saying the same thing about special attack?

Personally again Mewtwo’s movie is the only thing we have talking about his abilities still.

And jirachi is said to awaken only once in thousand years. So lol.

Yeah, and guess when you have to capture it? It certainly isn't sleeping when you are using it.

And wishing to win is banned anyway, mwah.

Wishes such as "I wish you were dead" are banned (although if the power is 100% the users in the 1st place like it is with some characters in this thread that aren't Ganondorf, I don't know why they couldn't use it like that).

If you think wishing is banned 100% than please explain to me why Bowser beat Lucas?
(Besides of course how you guys are on purpose restricting Lucas' power even though unlike Bowser he actually does call that “god” power his)

In any case, if trainer gets killed or otherwise incapacitated once, he has already lost.

Which is why part of my argument is that the trainer can protect himself from otherwise having that happen, ever notice that the same trainer we are talking about is the same guy who fights terrorist organizations at least once in his game?

Doesn't help against an AoE attack

So are you forgetting that there are AoE attack moves in the pokemon games as well? After all that is how Olimar is so called losing to Pikachu even though there is no back up info on the thing making sense with surf in the pokedex and clearly seems to be there for another reason such as balance. (Of course the really fun fact about surf and pokemon in general is that non blue pikmin don't just die right away when they "hit water," and you can clearly rescue them if they aren't in the water that long/the water goes away)

 

[PowerBomb]

...AoE?

Is that area of attack?

Yes

So, did you not remember that I said earlier that there were things like Heal Bell or Aromatherapy? In fact the various pokemon that learn things like Aromatherapy in the 1st place are only learning it because of what things like the Pokedex says as well about them; note how Meganium a pokemon that breathes life into plants also learns AT, Shaymin is just overkill as far as what it does to restore plant life, and look at how Parasect learns it as well (and it's spores can be both bad and good)?

Aromatherapy/Heal Bell cure Status Effects. While 'Fainted' or 'Death' might be Status Effects, those two moves do not cure that kind of status.

So because you think they are different that automatically makes you think that there aren’t pokemon who can do the same things as others but just on a grander scale of them?

It's all different >_>
And iirc, Shaymin can just make flowers appear out of nowhere. It doesn't need dead plants or something.

Which is why part of my argument is that the trainer can protect himself from otherwise having that happen, ever notice that the same trainer we are talking about is the same guy who fights terrorist organizations at least once in his game?

Ever notice that the terrorist organizations are complete and utter morons?

So are you forgetting that there are AoE attack moves in the pokemon games as well? After all that is how Olimar is so called losing to Pikachu even though there is no back up info on the thing making sense with surf in the pokedex and clearly seems to be there for another reason such as balance. (Of course the really fun fact about surf and pokemon in general is that non blue pikmin don't just die right away when they "hit water," and you can clearly rescue them if they aren't in the water that long/the water goes away)

Surf hits everyone
EQ hits everyone

Not many moves that are accurate that are AoE, right?

And ffs, virus/spyware infection.

 

[_clinton]

Aromatherapy/Heal Bell cure Status Effects. While 'Fainted' or 'Death' might be Status Effects, those two moves do not cure that kind of status.

Yeah, because the stuff would be sort of broken to have as a move in battle that you could call upon, the metagame is already not that balanced on purpose though, and I’m sure that some pokemon being able to revive others would only make it worse, don’t you think? The fact is things like the dex clearly show some sort of life giving power in various pokemon, but you don’t see Ho-Oh bringing foes back from ‘fainted’ or ‘death status’ do you?

It's all different >_>

Ok, let me show you why thinking that “it's all different” doesn't make sense by bringing up things like Pidgeot.

Pidgey and such can't fly as fast as their adult form, but don't you think Pidgeot could fly as fast as them if it wanted to? I mean you honestly can’t think that Pidgeot ‘always’ has to fly in mach 2 speeds do you?

And iirc, Shaymin can just make flowers appear out of nowhere. It doesn't need dead plants or something.

Dude, the thing it does is restore dead lands where nothing will grow and things place there to try and grow will die.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Floaroma_Town

The fact that it can revive dead land speaks a bit more than just reviving dead plants in limited amounts.

Ever notice that the terrorist organizations are complete and utter morons?

How so? Cyrus doesn't seem like a moron, he more or less just seems to be a *******, and how come you don't notice that pretty much every foe is stupid on the other side?

Are you going to try and say that foes like the space pirates aren’t on that list of “stupid foes” right just because of a certain number of them doing questionable things?

Of course the funny thing is that even though there are some issues with several members of the foes in a large group, ever notice how the more “elite” aren’t ****ing around like grunts are?

Not many moves that are accurate that are AoE, right?

Well besides those other two dealing with Earthquake and Surf you forgot to list these:
Lava Plume
Discharge
Self-Destruct and Explosion

And the only other AoE attack that I can think of that has a small accuracy issue is this:
Muddy Water

Of course those are just moves that hit “all” other pokemon. There are still moves on there that just hit all foes and leave your ally pokemon alone (mostly because you can’t find some way to flat out resist all of the damage from all of those moves).

And ffs, virus/spyware infection.

That sucks

 

[PowerBomb]

Ok, let me show you why thinking that “it's all different” doesn't make sense by bringing up things like Pidgeot.

Pidgey and such can't fly as fast as their adult form, but don't you think Pidgeot could fly as fast as them if it wanted to? I mean you honestly can’t think that Pidgeot ‘always’ has to fly in mach 2 speeds do you?

k

Dude, the thing it does is restore dead lands where nothing will grow and things place there to try and grow will die.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Floaroma_Town

The fact that it can revive dead land speaks a bit more than just reviving dead plants in limited amounts.

k...

How so? Cyrus doesn't seem like a moron, he more or less just seems to be a *******, and how come you don't notice that pretty much every foe is stupid on the other side?

I meant the Grunts in practically every 'terrorist' organization (the public doesn't even give two ****'s about them. It's just like ohey, Team _____, kbye).

Are you going to try and say that foes like the space pirates aren’t on that list of “stupid foes” right just because of a certain number of them doing questionable things?

Not really, considering some of them try to keep Metroid's as pets (and it backfires).

Well besides those other two dealing with Earthquake and Surf you forgot to list these:
Lava Plume
Discharge
Self-Destruct and Explosion

And the only other AoE attack that I can think of that has a small accuracy issue is this:
Muddy Water

Of course those are just moves that hit “all” other pokemon. There are still moves on there that just hit all foes and leave your ally pokemon alone (mostly because you can’t find some way to flat out resist all of the damage from all of those moves).

Such as Rock Slide/Blizzard. If you look at Blizzard, it isn't really touching your partner; same with Rock Slide. Surf, Lava Plume, Discharge, etc, all have a large enough radius to harm your partner (or you can abuse the effect for some boosts).

Some of these will harm the trainer, though.

 

[_clinton]

I meant the Grunts in practically every 'terrorist' organization (the public doesn't even give two ****'s about them. It's just like ohey, Team _____, kbye).

Oh yes, because they aren’t just keeping what they are really up to a deep secret for 90% of the games, and the public does try and deal with them. The 2nd generation happens to clearly show that the people in their community don’t want TR around, Kurt just ****s himself when that happens instead of dealing with them though.

The Pokemon league in the 4th generation has their champion Cynthia working on spying on Team Galactic’s activities, just like how in the 2nd generation Lance is around to try and deal with Team Rocket’s remains

(Also btw in case you didn’t know, your Rival in the 2nd generation’s new remake is Giovanni’s son now officially canon wise, guess where that idea 1st came from if you don’t think that the Pokemon Special Manga isn’t seen as serious at all by Nintendo)

But the funny thing I think you are forgetting is that said organizations are packing a bunch of monsters around with them. Ever look at what the community has at best; you are aware that is where most people keep pokemon as only a pet or so right? They as far as most go aren’t trainers.

Plus it’s not like they just go around saying they’re the bad guys until the very last event or so (even though it is clear as **** they are to the player), in the 3rd generation they were just saying they were “environmentalists” or something to the public view. Plus the worst thing in public they do in general is just not that big of a deal (in the 4th generation all you see is that they steal a pokemon, which people notice, but is it worth calling the army for?) Plus not even Team Galactic’s own members seemed to know the full scale of what was going on for one case.

Not really, considering some of them try to keep Metroid's as pets (and it backfires).

So, the whole science experiments on their own kind don’t backfire badly because instead of doing some logical tests 1st they just assume everything will work out ok on their own kind or what?

Of course that might have something to do with the hive mentality they have been shown to have I guess.

Such as Rock Slide/Blizzard. If you look at Blizzard, it isn't really touching your partner; same with Rock Slide.

The point is that they are affecting one side of the field, fun fact there is a trainer on that side you know.

Some of these will harm the trainer, though.

Yet my point is that even with these AoE attacks that totally make sense that they don’t. Looking at it some more the trainer is 100% fine after them somehow. So PT is either able to dodge the after effects or is being protected somehow (because you can’t tell me some certain trainers wouldn’t try to undo his command of his pokemon in non-friendly event matches like for example the fights with the bad guys of the game).

 

[warpd]

Can Lucas catch a Wolfen?

Anyhow. Not only is MK's sword work super fast, but he can throw out elemental attacks with it as well. Like when you fight him in Squeak Squad.

 

[BSP]

Doesn't matter if Lucas can catch it or not. If wolf, and probably MK too, shoots/hits him with anything, they recieve half of their damage back. Lucas can heal himself, and still attack with PK attacks.

 

[_clinton]

Can Lucas catch a Wolfen?

He thinks to fight in general, what makes you think he can't just blast a Wolfen out of the sky?

He can also just **** with reality pretty much using his stat changing PK moves, and make it so the fight would be pretty much something like Mike Tyson in his prime vs. a little 4 year old kid physically (well a bit worse than that, Lucas can still use his shields as well). Or something else like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEuY8KRXfVw&feature=related

Lucas will bend Wolf just like a spoon.

Anyhow. Not only is MK's sword work super fast, but he can throw out elemental attacks with it as well. Like when you fight him in Squeak Squad.

If this is in regards to the whole Lucas vs. MK thing if they are on the ground (because by now I hope this thread gets it that Lucas will take you down if flying); then you should know how ineffective "elemental attacks" are to Lucas in part due to things like his unique "Kings" armor (I say "Kings" because Lucas is wearing the same types of things Poo gets for armor equipment in EB, plus the stuff is rare and somewhat hard to come by as well, and you can miss it) oh and of course there are things like the Franklin Badge.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Good then, so why is he beating characters like Sonic or Falcon that can smack him around at the speed of sound+?

Then he simply shouldn't beat them. At the worst (in their cases) Ike should draw against them. But I think Sonic at least could damage him.

Why does the “where” matter? You don’t see me caring about how pokemon can hold items in PMD do you?

Ok that's true.

And for some reason those high leveled electric attacks that it has are pretty much the same as the high leveled electrical attacks every other pokemon can learn. So, what does like a good % of the pokemon having like a higher attack base than Pikachu say again?

That they'd be stronger, naturally. However, Pikachu has the Light Ball, which makes him about as strong as the legendaries attack wise (far less useful though, but that's logical) or at least, very strong.

Still of course I like how you think a single Pikachu being able to create a storm with a move even though the dex says that you need a group of them to get anything at all isn’t just proof that the game mechs. for pokemon are messed up.

Well... I think I know why. It's cause the Pikachus you encounter first are about level 5 to 6 in Veridian Forest. I wouldn't think that those Pikachus could create storms either.

So, did you avoid the part where in the game script the game gives clear hints that Bowser isn’t at his best and that is why he needed help like that? (Plus the fact that he had his body taken over in the 1st place should tell you he is being limited)

Why would that mean that Bowser is limited? But your right though, as proofed in game in the Battle Node.

Well, when the things in low tier consist of characters like ROB and such, one has to wonder.

Well, we also have stuff like Jigglypuff and Pichu which won't go much higher than that so...

He has used stuff like AR and polymorph magic before in case you couldn’t tell from me saying it happened in Mario World with the Yoshi’s, Super Mario Brothers 3 with the kings, and several other games have shown it off,

What is going to prevent him from using it now if he wanted to? Maybe you should find some proof of Ike being protected from that sort of stuff.

Heard that before yeah, but I just.. don't think it'll work on most characters here simply said. What exactly did he do to turn them into different things? You mentioned the Yoshi's, but as far as I know, Yoshi made his first apperance in Super Mario World, and looks the same as he does now.

Well at least you agree with me on that and how they are just a forced limitation in that case.

Yes, it's VERY stupid in Bowser's Inside Story. Best thing is that you can pretty much fight all enemies you fought as Bowser, with Mario and Luigi. If Bowser was at his "true strenght" as shown, he wouldn't even need to enter the battles and just kill the enemies straight ahead.

I especially hate how limited Bowser is in battles. Things like the rolling attack, and stomping attack could've made a pretty cool addition to the battles but no... <_<;

Because the ToP is so much god power, it isn’t just a sliver of it at all. However, for as much of a demon Ganondorf is, he sure did start off human enough huh? (Guess that should say something)

He still was always far far more powerful than any human before he got the Triforce of Power of coarse. I'm just thinking the ToP improves Ganon's own powers even further, as he could clearly use magic for example before he got it (as shown in OoT when you first see him as Young Link). He was also always refered to as the King of Thieves, and he's already pretty special seeing as he's a male Gerudo.

And one of the other gods made the laws of that land so that the fire and **** could be there in the 1st place (you like gravity or time in general? Well thank the ToW for that one in the Zelda world ok).

And one of the other gods made life on all that stuff, and gave form to the stuff (If you think the ToC has issues with competing with the other two, I think you are wrong, just saying)

Well, I personally would've thought Faore the Courage goddess would've created the spirit of all life. But yeah, it's pretty hard to make up about what we've seen in that 1 minute 'cutscene' in OoT. Could be debated further, but I don't see the reason.

Ok, the thing I’m doing is not “denying” that Ganondorf has some god power ok. I’m saying it doesn’t amount for **** compared to what the gods have already been shown to do for that series and that the amount of power he has (ToP) is very small compared to the real thing and its only seems impressive, but in truth where he is using it at in that world is something like this most of the time that ends up showing off his stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEuY8KRXfVw&feature=related

Well, that's partly true but... We don't have much effidence of what the goddesses' power of the Triforce really is. Besides that touching those triangles will make your wish come true.

So, what I’m saying is that vs. something that actually has some power as well usually ends up having him lose but him having a track record of 99 losses 0 wins vs. some kid who “can’t even talk” must suck for Ganondorf, just one more loss and he gets to have a helmet though like Glass Joe!

Heheh, that's true though. Same could be said about any bad guy in this thread. Especially Bowser. At least in the Zelda time line, Ganon reappears in different 'places' still so he doesn't has as much losses as you'd think.

So, what is his unit like in RD? Just wondering, because it would be neat to know?

Don't quite understand what you mean here. You mean, how the Black Knight appeared in Radiant Dawn? Well, first of all his blessing was gone. He mentoined it himself. Also, he appeared in full strenght now and got his identity revealed and ****. Which was actually kinda bad ***.

The fact that he throws giants around also isn’t enough?

Well, that's one thing. I could try and blame it on the analog stick which needed some use in a awesome way but yeah...

Oh and how come? Mario clears large stretches of land in only a few seconds a good % of the time, it seems clear that they only seem so slow because Mario is so fast, just like how things are in Sonic.

But in Mario Galaxy the Bullet Bills are still super slow. You sometimes even have to 'guide' them around to break stuff for you. Then again, Mario Galaxy is in space, but iirc Bullet Bills didn't move all too fast in 64 either.

Mario's still pretty **** fast and strong, but it's not that he clearly overwhelms anyone. Especially Donkey Kong for example.

I’m pretty sure something like DK, Conker’s Bad Fur Day, tons of Zelda games, Castlevania seems to, and stuff like Another World disagrees with you.

Well personally I don't think DKC, nor DKJB have slow game play. If that's what you meant of coarse..? There are even races in both (series) of games which kinda proove the speed of the characters. Yet, so does Mario... >_> Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1cGiEw5yLo&feature=related

Yeah, and as they were getting away, they chances are while dropping a ton of them (because they did), others kicked them around because they were grouped together, and stuff like them being “buried” happened.
BTW ever see something like this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html

Yeah well, my point was that you could also make DK have some sort of magical powers in his hand clap like you did with Mario and the tornado spinning.

You bringing up DK slamming fruit out of trees wants me to post this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ogQ0uge06o

Anyway, I don’t see why you couldn’t shake a small tree bearing fruit and stuff like that.

I liked Jungle Book to when I was a kid. Kinda funny to hear the original song though (my main language is not English fyi).

So, where did item use come up from this part from me?

Not by you, I brought it up. As the only time I personally saw Wario run over water in your videos was when he ran over some kinda booster item.

Pretty sure you saying “sometimes he just only needs to jump from something high to achieve it” was me just saying he needed a bit more force to get it out really.

Which isn't DKC-specific of coarse. If truely every character could just over power any object or enemy easily then what challenge would games be?

I think you need to play DKC again actually, because I wasn’t talking about a “Rambi Crate,” I was talking about those golden animal tokens (note how I said token as well) you can find in the 1st game and was talking about several of their hiding spots like “a pile of leaves and dirt.”

Hmmm, I always thought of them as golden statues but whatever. I simply misunderstood. And no, you can't hand slap them out of the ground no. But note that DK's jumps are generally stronger than his hand slap anyways. Seeing as he can kill a Krusha kremling troop with a jump, but not with a hand slap or roll.

How is being shot out of a cannon impressive? Both Mario and Wario do that as well and unlike DK have used themselves to bust up more things than just “bonus rooms,” hell Sonic has as well.

I was just saying. Forget it.

Yes, and she wasn’t just lolling at that so called damage. Plus he wasn’t totally also using weapons that were under the goddess’ blessing as well.

Well, basically Ike always used a weapon with blessings, the Ragnell. Not really important though. But yes, Ike does **** damage to Ashera without Yune I agree.

And why?

Who where we talking about? Fox? I think Ike should either draw, or lose. Snake? Ike should win imo. Sonic, draw or lose. Bowser; lose, deffinatly.

You didn’t tell me ****, I knew about Roy’s weapons before I said they would tie.

True, but I still find it strange.

Again, why on earth do you think she couldn’t disarm someone like Roy? If his sword is where he is packing his power, and she is packing a stun gun, all she really needs is one good shot and she can disarm him from his power in general!

What is so hard about stealing weapons!?

Nothing, except that Zero Suit Samus can't do anything with the weapons anyway. Roy still has other swords to attack with.

The game script doesn’t agree with you and you thinking the power doesn’t belong to Lucas, but whatever I’ve only shown the canon script like 50 times.

I'll admit that I didn't payed attention to it a lot. So uhm, you could post it 1 more time couldn't you? I might very well agree with you if you have solid proof.

Ness didn’t need to create anything but “his” dream world which allowed him to end up going to the center of creation (Eden) and absorb that area, oh and I’m sorry you think him creating a world based off his feelings and such is a small thing, you are aware that it was “real” as far as hints go right? It was made with the power of the earth he was absorbing for starters. He was able to stop the “end of everything” in the 1st place, Lucas had to undo the “end of everything” by releasing the power of the earth.

I think it was more about Ness overcomming his inner fears, which made him stronger. Physically, he probably didn't even went there anyways (even though he gets new equipment and stuff there) and it was only mentally / psychic.

How is it 80% of the time for a loss? She has a long rang taser and is super human already w/o the suit.

As I said before, she'd die easier and she has no real method of killing. Or at least, not nearly as effective as the other characters.

Well besides the fact that Mario is linked to a bunch of star children who become worlds as seen in SMG and the power that they are around and that he is clearly seen using in some way or so, he also has things like the crystal stars from TTYD.

Of course he is somehow always around a bunch of weapons of world ****ing power besides the thing I just said (pure hearts and the chaos heart, the star rod and the spirits, star road, and so on) in case you haven’t notice that already for his canon.

I don't think that is God power, but more God-like items in those specific universes. I don't think canoncally, that Mario would be able to still use those sort of moves outside the universe those stars and crystals and stuff belong to. At least, that's my vision. He's still hella strong anyways.

Yes, he totally is good with a sword in every game, here are three examples off the top of my head:
-TP doesn’t just totally blow your theory out of the water when he gets his *** kicked by that “old hero wolf spirit thingy” ^_^
-WW doesn’t have him just showing proof that he has been training in the sword in general in some way.
-Zelda 2 doesn’t just have that Link learning sword tricks from a master or two.

TP: well yeah it's only logical there cause you know, he learns all his techniques from that wolf.
WW: true.
Zelda 2: wouldn't know. That game is waaay too hard.

But generally, Link is already pretty skilled with the sword. Hence his techniques in TP and WW even before he gets the sword. He just picks it up very fast and naturally. It's even pointed out in TP where Link first gets the bow. That baby merchant kid says something like: lolzzz I never saw you with a bow in Ordon Link, proof that you can handle one to me.

In fact I’m pretty sure stuff like harder foes that mainly use better weapons that show up in all of the Zelda games clearly gives the idea that the Link hero is usually a novice in swordsmanship, you know because it is suppose to be good, Link isn’t like Ganondorf in that all of his fights except one sometimes are very one-sided, he is suppose to start off as someone just “normal” that is why he is wearing nothing except his clothes at the start of each game usually.

I can't think of no real fight where Link gets overpowered, badly. Yes, in TP two times (the knight with the ball and chain, and the first Darknut in Temple of Time) but he kills them both cause he has better skill, not power.

So, how come he can’t lift grass out of the ground in OoT again or bomb flowers like how a normal little kid should be?

Cause he's a kid?

\

Yep and in order to use Durandal in that game you sort of have to have an S class ranking or are a master with the weapon instead. And I don’t know why you would have Roy use that sword if you could give it to someone else.

Whatever though, the sword did chose them as a group.

Roy also asked Lilina after you get the sword if he would be able to weild it. Not really important, but still. And it's not like it's hard getting Roy a S class in swords. I find it harder NOT to get him to that skill level than to actually get it there.

How, just because of Magic?

It's the most obvious advantage so... yes. I also think Link could kill ZSS with the bow eventually. Theres also the Mirror Shield which might reflect ZSS's paralyser, or at least stop it I think.

Keeping realism out of this of course I’m totally going to avoid the fact that Samus’ bombs blow up a large area to the point where after spreading out the stuff gets flung around into the start of the blast and Link’s bombs are **** by comparison.

True. Link's bombs are pretty ****ty comparing to Samus' weaponary.

Or he is winning because of clear favoritism for him in this thread by a large bulk of the users.

Not everyone really likes Ganon I think. It's just more that it's.. hard to find a way to beat him really according to Zelda's canon.

We'll find out soon enough though.

Ah no, the thing that was noted about Ganon in those games is that he came back sort of crazy due to having no mind, which somehow automatically made him weaker for no reason given from the other side even though the triforce was clearly in play in those areas because guess what Link was packing on his arm/what was the area anyway?

Did Link had the Triforce then? Also, having no mind is a bad excuse yeah...

Yes, and Ganondorf is totally the one who caused that, not Zelda at the end of the game splitting the time line by throwing that Link back in time because she wasn’t aware of what could happen/didn’t want to put out to a guy who had the mind of a 10 year old (another thing about the game that totally makes sense, he isn’t physically ready to take the sword yet they don’t mind trapping him in a room for 7 years with no apparent mental growth given).

Heh, I always imagined Link thinking at the end of OoT: "Wtf, she wants me to do this same **** over again in 7 years?? Screw this *****, I'm leaving this place!"

Ganondorf at the end of LttP flies back to the pyramid and the room containing the triforce is right behind him! So, why does he fight Link if he could just wish him away instead? He had enough time to use it if he wanted to!

Maybe he wanted a fair fight? Could explain why he turned bitter in the later games. Or maybe it's because the Triforce can only grant 1 wish to 1 person?

Well, besides the fact that it is the only Mario game out there giving a reason for why the characters are special, as in it gives a reason to why Mario and Luigi can stop Bowser for more reasons than just none!

In that point of view I agree.

Oh I’m sorry, so why is Mario special again if you don’t like Yoshi’s Island DS’s reason? I don’t know about you, but I prefer more reasons than just none!

Yeah so do I, but I didn't really liked Yoshi's Island DS in the first place. Was a big step down imo from the SNES game. Not to mention, really unfair in some places. That game could truely make you feel frustrated.

Because he was using the star power on that station (that he is linked to because he is a star child of a different type) as a means make weapons and things like a Dark Matter reactor, a star reactor, and a bunch of other weapons that were being powered by the energy of the star kids (I mean things like the Comet Observatory was made by the main Luma Mario is traveling with in the 1st place in that game) which he had plans of also using it to rule like a god at the universe at the center of it with Peach at his side.

That's actually pretty bad ***. O.o Bowser gets more cool points from me everytime.

Lol, how is the back story for Mario not as deep as Zelda’s?

Now that I think about it, Zelda indeed doesn't sound as deep as it did before. Still, I think it might still be deeper than most Mario games.

Sakurai has said that MK’s sword speed is being flung around at the speed of sound or so:
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/metaknight.html

I mean why would the guy who made Kirby not be a credible source for talking about his own material?

Explains him being so overpowered in Brawl. So yeah, Meta Knight is fast as we also see in his games (almost impossible to dodge his attacks when he's close) but Kirby can also still beat him. With Sword ability even. I still think Link shouldn't have too much trouble facing MK alone either.

Maybe it is because Mario is super fast and strong as well for starters as well.

I'm not thinking he's anything special compared to others. But yeah, I think he'd beat Kirby as well.

Why would a “holy weapon” harm a fighter who isn’t a bad guy/evil in the 1st place? He is using a holy sword as well you know.

It would still damage him a lot I think.

What about the whole electric energy field, or general tornados in general/those other moves in Kirby Super Star that became his special moves in SSBB?

Weren't we talking about Link vs ZSS..?? Besides, I wouldn't know.

Ah, let us see. He has declared war on Dream Land with the Halberd in the 1st place, he has helped Kirby many times at destroying the demon of the week, and for the anime example in which Sakurai had a pretty big part in making in the 1st place he is one of the few survivors of a great galactic affecting war. I’m pretty sure galactic war vs. some super evil is for sure going to count on the idea of “great war.”

Well, that convinces me enough yeah. Meta Knight is pretty **** dangerous.

Samus in her suit is going to get him, Mario, Luigi, Wario, Bowser will IMO, Kirby of course ^_^, PK users and that one very special pokemon, pokemon trainer, Sonic,

If all they had to do was beat the ship I would include the Star Fox characters and Falcon as well but they don’t.

Samus: I agree. Luckily for her she has her ship, otherwise I would say no.
Mario & Luigi: Mega Mushroom, thus yes. Not really convinced though, might as well be the other way around.
Wario: Only if he's truely immortal, in which case he should beat anyone.
Bowser: Deffinatly.
Ness / Lucas: Hmm.. I guess you would know better so I agree.
Mewtwo: Won by teleporting into the ship. Would he be able to beat the ship head on you think? Personally I also say yes.
PT: No doubt.
Sonic: Yes.

Well, they can fly at the speed of sound+ but I don’t see them stopping MK on the ground.

As in, Fox or Falco without their Arwing or Landmaster? Then yeah, I also think they'd be screwed. But didn't they also fought battle ships like the Halberd before?

What makes you think they couldn’t fly on there and stuff like that?

Cause of this combo canon right? Wouldn't it be hard to get inside the Halberd when that thing is there?

Well, him being immortal vs. a bunch of apes totally makes sense when he is the king banana among them.

DK only becomes king after he beats them sencelessly. And it's not like those other apes aren't strong or anything. They were the kings of those kingdoms before DK came and beat them down (for no apperant reason at all so far).

Oh yes, because you having one tool that is just not really talked about at all in the games he totally wins because of how broad the description in it is, it’s not like total BS at all.

Why can't it be as overpowered as it is to you? It clearly shows limitation by having to use magic in the first place.

What makes you think Lucas doesn’t own a power that calls him master again? Plus Giygas is more of a tragic figure “god” actually; Porky is far more evil than he is in case you could never tell.

Giygas didn't have a mind anymore iirc. He became too powerful, so his brain assploded. But he was still reffered to as the Devil's Machine, so...
Porky is more evil cause he still has a evil brain. It's that simply

Sorry, but when they are part of an 4 person army that is taking on foes that clearly have the by far greater advantage in so many areas like technology, number, and such (unlike Samus, who while has the number issue she has the technology advantage by far).

Yeah, Samus DOES kinda have a huge advantage over most of her enemies. But still, she shows enough skill to take down the likes of Ridley and such. Not that you wouldn't know but..

Lucas remakes the world, Ness absorbs a creation power, and they certainly can do it.

Kinda agree.

Ness and Lucas start out as normal children, what part of that makes you think they don’t “get experience” or stuff like that? What else besides leveling up makes sense?

Nothing else really..? But that's like the main story of a good 99% of all RPGs.

Pokemon have stuff like IVs and EVs that pretty much show off their potential/training and that stuff, and level really doesn’t make sense when like I said already on how you can find super powerful Pidgey along with low level ones!

Yeah, but Pokemon is kinda different. It is also possible with real life animals for example to hae a stronger 'breed' of sorts. Besides, theres no such thing as powerful Pidgeys. =)

Right, why don’t you agree with the thing when I’m just looking at the definition of PK in the 1st place and for what it does?

The deffinition is kinda overpowered yeah. At least, if put in a realistic way. In most games for example, your deffinition of PK screwing around with internal organs would maybe do as much damage as a ZOMG UBAR LIGHTNING KICK DIVE ATTACK of sorts. You wouldn't know.

So, why did they come then?

Dunno lol.

I'd think it's more the Dragon's doing than anything.

PK Flash had a chance at taking out several bosses in one shot, and when foes used the beta level it certainly was important to have some protection from it.

That was in EarthBound?? O.o That would've been pretty cool, as I never managed to get it to work.

How am I not following the rules for the thread?

Well, you alone basically changed the whole concept of the thread so... Yeah, your following the rules pretty fine.

God you don’t see me saying that Lucas is fighting with Kumatora, Duster, Boney, and stuff like that do you?

No... But that was different.

How is he going to get away from Wario when Wario has more flight options, and stuff like that?

And Wario has more flight options than just his plane if it gets destroyed.

Wario has been shown to pilot tons of vehicles besides just his plane, he is able to drive things like submarines, high speed chases like that 2nd boss in Wario Land Shake it, and the like.

Diddy was able to ride mine karts and rat-skull shaped rollercoaster cars to, as well as a couple of animals. But lets just keep it as simple as possible.

He specialized in many forms of transportation, you saying Diddy has better handling of his stuff is BS.

Diddy does have better handling than Wario in Mario Kart Double Dash and Wii though. But it was more based of the Gyrocopter's dangerous missions that I said that.

Lol, I own DKC, DKC2, DKC3, DKL, DKL2, DKL3, DK64, and a certain ****y music game that uses those bongos for starters as far as games go. Oh and like I said DK64 was the last one I truly played and beat fully. Oh and I of course have proof of all owning all of those games and beating them fully. Fun fact, flying Pigs aren’t impressive to me for starters (you’ll get a cookie if you can guess what flying Pigs have to do with DK).

Heh, I don't even own Donkey Konga, and didn't even beat DK64 fully (those minigames... wtf!?). Flying pigs are only in Donkey Kong Land though, and I kinda liked them.

Yes, this totally makes sense, so how come he took such as step as far as villains go again? This is part of the reason for why I don’t see JC as being really serious, I mean when did the need to want DK’s bananas end up becoming universe control? It totally just seems as serious as far as story goes like those other games with Tingle and Pikachu.

I don't think it's such a huge step at all, cause K.Rool's lowest 'acts' where presented in DKC1 and King of Swing with only stealing some valueable stuff. But in DKC2; he build his own giant island (which he could use to get a good economy going for example, most likely for evil) and in DKC3 he was.. weird. In DK64, he suddenly wanted to destroy DK Isle. The least to say about his personality is that he's unpredictable.

Besides, those Crystal Bananas came from the banana shaped alien Xananab. He never took them from Donkey Kong. That, and Jungle Climber is a game faaar improved on King of Swing. Better story, faster gameplay, new game mechanics while keeping the good old ones and pretty challenging actually. Best DK game in years.

You know when you aren’t saying the Mario RPG series aren’t serious part of me still takes them for more credit because the “world+” threat is put in them like in the main games.

Yeah maybe I underestimated the Mario RPGs a little. But I liked the ones I played. Super Paper Mario imo is still the best. Second comes Mario & Luigi 1.

Wario gets his super dash from a machine in WLSI, but he was picking speeds like that for the 1st time in Wario Land 4. I don’t see why his speed isn’t serious, the machine is just meant to sort of be a forced limit on game play like those barrels that hold power ups in DK64, you don’t see me saying Diddy Kong has to jump into a barrel to use his jet pack do you?

If Wario can get to those exact speeds without items I'm cool with it.

Why would it greatly damage him? Because Diddy plays it so bad that it’s painful to hear? God, it’s not like Wario hasn’t dealt with a foes using sound to screw with him and destroy the areas he was in.

I'd think the blast would do the damage actually, not the bad playing. It has pretty bad start up time though, so Diddy would need to get out of Wario's range.

Right, because I don’t have proof of Wario having reaction abilities in general that show him repairing his body when it is destroyed.
-Fire burns him to dust
-Becoming a zombie or a vampire require him being destroyed when he comes back
-Flat Wario, from being crushed in general
-Bouncy Wario from being partially crushed
-Ice Wario, ends up with him breaking and reforming at the end of it
-Little Wario, proof that “age regression” to a certain point wouldn’t be a big deal for him to deal with

But that's all in one game right? Is there any explanation of why Wario survives those crazy things?

Does he repair his body when hit by something that would flat out destroy it?

No of coarse not, this isn't a Wario game. =)

Right, because Wario has never been shown to punch really fast, dodge moves, and smacking weak spots, god he can swing from bars, vines, and such as well, remember how fast he was moving when he was in the 3rd boss of Wario Land Shake it. He is by far more nimble and athletic than what he looks like.

Sure he can, but where exactly in the way DK does it like in Jungle Beat?

He has created a huge shockwave of sound just by punching the ground hard enough.

That's a pretty similar ability I must say...

In Wario Land 3 he can just slam the ground repeatedly (ground pound) and make shockwaves if you need it.

DK can do stuff like that to in DK64 when holding in the attack button. You'll then charge up and release a shockwave to as well, so DK has different options with this as well.

So, how come he hasn’t had another game showing off those skills again? Or another game showing off those skills that he 1st only made sound by playing something like his bongos?

DK:JB did have a sequal, but it wasn't on a console, it was a arcade game called Jungle Fever. http://www.mariowiki.com/Donkey_Kong:_Jungle_Fever . And now that I looked it up, even a sequel to that: http://www.mariowiki.com/Donkey_Kong:_Banana_Kingdom . It never left Japan though. Also, the game got re-made for the Wii.

Power is the only thing DK has close to Wario actually, if you disagree please show me running across water and such. Equipment, speed, durability, and stuff Wario has DK beat.

DK isn't close to Wario in power, he beats him in it. Speed: check this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1ScmdkywTg . DK was never really slow to begin with. He could use his strenght to gain speed.
Durability: except for never being crushed, or cut in half, DK has survived nasty stuff. He's been under heavy fire many times (DKC2 boss battle, Jungle Beat and even Jungle Climber and King of Swing) and is pretty much immortal in Jungle Beat.
Equipment: yes, Wario might have better equipment. Not that DK has it bad anyways. YOu knew that the Coconut Gun and all wooden weapons in DK64 where actually real weapons first?

Wario isn’t bothered by sound, already posted that picture of that foe just starting to break apart the castle he was in with sound and Wario just busted him apart.

That enemy probably has much less range than DK anyways. What happens to Wario anyway when he's hit by that sound attack?

Plus as far as fighting goes anyway Wario when faced with foes usually just creates openings in case you never noticed how he fought some foes like the Shake King. So when DK is keeping him a bay with sound or oranges what makes you think Wario couldn’t just cause a shake and knock DK off balance then beat him to a pulp while in that time?

That'd only work if Wario is able to stun DK hard. You have any vids where this situation is happening? It's not like DK cannot jump or anything. He can also use the Sound wave attack in mid air.

Yes, and you certainly know how I feel about invulnerability and how that stuff is BS, but hey I’m at least willing to think that after a long while Wario’s regenerative ability would not work as well despite it not being shown in canon really. How come I’m the only one who finds the idea of invulnerability to be BS?

Going Bananas still has it's limitations of coarse. But please explain why you think invurnerability is BS??

Right, I’m sure I’ve seen Diddy move fast enough to run across water. Oh and saying DK resists lava, what do you mean? I’m sure him touching it in things like DK64 kills him most of the time w/o Strong Kong (and that has some limits as well).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj76ObsEM6g here DK is resisting lava. Look around 2.00 to see the lava level. It's not like he's actually swimming in the lava or anything, but he can jump into it and take minimal damage. At 03.00 you also see him destroying big *** meteors with the Sound Wave attack. 05.35: you see DK reflecting a enemy's projectile. At 06.30 he does that again.

This video is also pretty awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7RyKEQW5Ok&feature=watch_response . Check around 06.25.

And you only focus on how Wario can run across water but what other feats of agility / speed does he show? Diddy dodges canonballs and stuff like crazy for example. Can Wario do that?

Yeah, notice how Snake enters a fight in Brawl? His cloaking device breaks (doesn’t happen in games, just letting you know) showing that he has just been there in general. **** he also has a suit that lets him blend into the background, **** stealth is his specialty. Unless you have some psychic power, special vision, and so on he has ways of evading you.

Okay I didn't knew. That's pretty awesome actually. Do you also have videos where Snake proves his super human skills other than walking around in a microwave room (and dying?) ..?

Anyway, Snake can actually use playboy as a weapon in the games, you can leave them out for guards to see and get distracted by them or use them yourself and have Snake relax and calm him down if he is under stress.

lol

And Snake can survive being stomped on by a giant machine or cooked in a microwave room.

He didn't survived the microwave room did he? He did however stayed alive much longer than any normal human would.

What makes you think that Snake has to let Tink get up if he falls over from it?

Nothing is stopping Snake. If he can do it, why not?

You have no idea how much I hate the game to be fair.

Why? It's a good quality game. Sure you can dislike Fox walking around with a magic staff in a dinosaur world, but Fox wasn't the main character of the game anyways. Nintendo got 'jealous' of Rare's design of the main character, and wanted to have Fox as the main character instead.

Thank you!

No problem. But it makes it still kinda hard to decide what moves will hurt Ike, and what moves wouldn't.

Well, yes because while Snake has a bunch of weapons of mass destruction on him, Fox has more insane **** with him.

Still, Snake was able to beat things like Metal Gears right? Would a Landmaster be harder to take down?

 

[warpd]

Assuming Lucas withstand robot crushing lasers to the face then ya he should beat Wolf. On MK, I was referring to him fighting the other swordsmen not Lucas.

Wario's powers have been rather random in most of his games. I think Wario just needs to simply out smart the ape. However, DK seems to have a range advantage over Wario with his weapons, shockwave attack, and his own physical body.

 

[_clinton]

Then he simply shouldn't beat them. At the worst (in their cases) Ike should draw against them. But I think Sonic at least could damage him.

Did you notice my video where I showed that the blessing isn’t really anything more than a huge stat boost in various things pretty much? (In truth, that is what Bowser’s star rod does to him in Paper Mario, but I won’t go there yet)

It’s hard to take the blessing seriously when non blessed characters can beat a bunch of humans who are blessed for Ike’s canon. It really is one of the most overrated things ever besides Ganondorf.

That they'd be stronger, naturally. However, Pikachu has the Light Ball, which makes him about as strong as the legendaries attack wise (far less useful though, but that's logical) or at least, very strong.

Ok, sense you keep on disagreeing with me on the fact that the light ball doesn't make any sense canon wise on a creature that is only a house pet compared to other things, may I remind you that it's hardly like Pikachu is the only character able to hold items.

Things like choice band/specs/scarf up their respectable stats by a level in return for limiting the move pool (compared to Pikachu’s 2 levels for each). So tell me, how on earth would you explain how a pokemon could only do one thing canon wise while they have that item on all the time away from a trainer?

Oh and the other fun fact is that usually all you need is that item or life orb or such to beat what silly advantage Pikachu has, just in case you still think Pikachu's small item makes him special, I mean he can perform a sweep, but so can anything else with enough set ups (remember the Magikarp video?)

Oh and it’s also not like the bulk of legendaries don’t just for the most part have issues with competing in the main Pokemon metagame in general game play wise compared to several other things (It’s hard to take Articuno seriously, just saying).

Well... I think I know why. It's cause the Pikachus you encounter first are about level 5 to 6 in Veridian Forest. I wouldn't think that those Pikachus could create storms either.

So, how come level in pokemon isn’t another thing you have yet to agree with me on for how it makes no sense? Again according to what this thread has said, there are level 100 Magikarp’s in the wild in the 2nd generation game remakes, IVs make a far better explanation as to what power pokemon have, and EVs make a better explanation for possible training of that power. Level just really seems to be there for no reason and I don’t see why it is needed in the end.

Why would that mean that Bowser is limited? But your right though, as proofed in game in the Battle Node.

Look again at the start of the game of BiS where you fight Bowser with Mario only when he crashes that party, Peach uses her white mage skills along with some help from that star spirit to drain Bowser of his energy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0
2:45 or so is where it started, and this next video shows that even after being into the game for a bit the drain on Bowser is affecting him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpWrwMrbXAk&feature=related
4:34 or so has him saying he isn’t at his “A” game.

Of course it’s not like every character that you play as in that game isn’t limited in some way (no way can you tell me Mario and Luigi aren’t being limited on purpose as well).

Well, we also have stuff like Jigglypuff and Pichu which won't go much higher than that so...

So, where would Pikachu, Diddy Kong, or DK go?

I personally see Diddy and DK wiping the floor with Pikachu TBH.

Heard that before yeah, but I just.. don't think it'll work on most characters here simply said. What exactly did he do to turn them into different things? You mentioned the Yoshi's, but as far as I know, Yoshi made his first apperance in Super Mario World, and looks the same as he does now.

Ok, Mario saved the Yoshi’s, along with those kings in Super Mario Brothers 3.
Bowser’s been showing off his magic sense his 1st appearance, so what do you think he does? He just casts a spell, and usually the spell is broken whenever something is beat, so I’m guessing the spells strength is linked to whatever Bowser wants guarding it.
Plus even to this day in the games Bowser’s been ****ing characters with his magic really.

He still was always far far more powerful than any human before he got the Triforce of Power of coarse.

I’m pretty sure he wasn’t, him being only a power hungry wizard does not make him stronger than everyone.

He was also always refered to as the King of Thieves, and he's already pretty special seeing as he's a male Gerudo.

I’m pretty sure the real reason he is known by the title as the King of Thieves mainly because he really is king for a pack of thieves in the 1st place, which is really only because of his gender.
Of course, I don’t see how being the only male born once every 100 years or so in a tribe makes him special other than the fact that there is something seriously wrong biologically or so with the Gerudo tribe (and on another note I’m pretty sure he didn’t get to know his father on another note based off what the tribe does with men and how they use them anyway).

Heheh, that's true though. Same could be said about any bad guy in this thread. Especially Bowser.

Meh, at the very least Bowser’s at least had some wins because of teaming up with his foe to fight a “greater evil.” It’s not his fault that Mario and Luigi are better than him in pretty much every way, it’s not like with Ganondorf, who clearly has the advantage over Link most of the time.

Don't quite understand what you mean here.

From what I can see from looking at RD, the Black Knight is a unit, I’m wondering if you can use him.

Well, that's one thing. I could try and blame it on the analog stick which needed some use in a awesome way but yeah...

In Mario Galaxy, Mario hits Bowser hard enough to the point where it knocks him off the planets they are fighting on, plus it’s not like Bowser is the only foe that is giant that Mario beats senseless.

But in Mario Galaxy the Bullet Bills are still super slow.

The funny thing about that is it really seems more of a game mechanic than anything else. Again, you don’t see bullets travelling at real life speeds in Sonic games do you?

The reality is Mario in SMG is traveling from planet to planet at whatever speeds stars move at just fine, he clearly is use to moving at very high speeds.

Especially Donkey Kong for example.

I while I’ve seen DK knock a foe from a jet plane, I have yet to see him knock his foes from planet to planet, or move that fast really (Diddy Kong is faster than him for starters according to the games still even to these days).

Well personally I don't think DKC, nor DKJB have slow game play. If that's what you meant of coarse..?

No, I’m talking about the amount of land they overall cover most of the time, which is a by far better judge over what they are doing.

Yeah well, my point was that you could also make DK have some sort of magical powers in his hand clap like you did with Mario and the tornado spinning.

Mario also uproots things buried in the ground/sucks in items to him (koopa shells) with his spin, just saying. DK actually only hits the ground, Mario actually spins hard enough to grab things out.
Sort of like you can see in this once with the star bits:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQY1qBx5tAI

As the only time I personally saw Wario run over water in your videos was when he ran over some kinda booster item.

And the only time I’ve seen Diddy Kong use his jet pack was after launching out of a barrel, which still makes more sense (fuel/keeping up repairs on that is an issue you know for that item, unlike with Wario, where the idea of running faster isn’t as much of an issue IMO) than Wario needing that machine he has like I said used that bull charge before in WL4.

Of course all items in the Mario games and such are like that in general (also you have to like how Link finds the right items in the place he is at huh?).

If truely every character could just over power any object or enemy easily then what challenge would games be?

The Wario Land games are pretty much that actually. You should try them out; being a god in human form is awesome.

But note that DK's jumps are generally stronger than his hand slap anyways. Seeing as he can kill a Krusha kremling troop with a jump, but not with a hand slap or roll.

Well, I would think an 800 pound ape landing on you would chances are hurt a bit more than it just hitting you (and Chunky of course, well you’re out cold). Of course Mario breaks apart land structures and such with jumps and chances are can’t weigh more than most average humans (well a bit more), and Sonic breaks through metal machines. So of course you can put some force into those drops if you do them right, personally I like Mario’s “homing attack” that he has in SMG as well.

Who where we talking about? Fox? I think Ike should either draw, or lose. Snake? Ike should win imo. Sonic, draw orlose. Bowser; lose, deffinatly.

Ike hasn’t had a match with Snake yet, so I don’t care about that ATM.
Falcon, Pit, Fox, Sonic, and Bowser were the matches I don’t agree on with Ike.
Ike beat Falcon, Pit, Fox, Sonic, and had a draw with Bowser.

Feel free to guess how I don’t like those 5 matches.
Oh and just in case you don’t want to look back at older posts, we were talking about Pit vs. Ike where you said Ike still beats him, and I’m asking why.

True, but I still find it strange.

What, I just don’t see how having a small amount of god power is worth as much as this thread has been saying it is worth, especially when that god power is only linked to a weapon, which isn’t even attached to the user physically or something.

Plus in general the feelings about gods vary with games/humanity’s history even.

Nothing, except that Zero Suit Samus can't do anything with the weapons anyway. Roy still has other swords to attack with.

Roy is still a normal human wearing armor, and him being tased will keep him down because of that, I mean have you ever been shocked by a taser before or at least watch what happens if you are? I mean if he is hit, he chances are will be stunned long enough for Zamus to go over to him, disarm him, and restrain him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UncMrAt5gE4
They are being held up while that happens for a reason. Now, imagine a super human athlete running around with a by far better projectile version of that (instead of having to deal with an electrical wire)?

I'll admit that I didn't payed attention to it a lot. So uhm, you could post it 1 more time couldn't you? I might very well agree with you if you have solid proof.

Ok, here are some things about the game’s script:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740

The power in the 1st place that is linked to the dragon is named PK Love and that power is “inside of Lucas” as you can see from this thing here:

What? You don't know what PSI is? That's
strange. I can feel magic power coming off you like a cloud.
Wait...just a little longer. Don't fight it. Hold out just a little
bit more. Almost there. O----------K!

"Something has awoken inside Lucas."
"Lucas learns Life-up."
"Lucas learns Healing."
"Lucas learns PK (insert the thing you selected as cool at the beginning of
the game)(I chose random and it came up PK LOVE)"
"Lucas can now use PSI."

Ionia: What! You've mastered PK Love, a power that no Magypsy has ever
been able to use.

Also, “the dragon” and what it is in the 1st place doesn’t seem to be a “creature” IMO, it is more of just “power” as the game goes on shows, and it is power with a similar name from Mother 2 (power of the land):

Pokey is planning on removing the needles,
waking the dragon, and then using that power as his own. The dragon
is the power of the land. The one who removes the needles is said to
be the dragon's master. However, the only ones who can remove the
needles are the extremely limited humans.

The one who removes the needles as in unlocks the power is said to be the rightful owner of the power in the 1st place, because the power in the 1st place is the power of the land/world, and the number of people who can deal with them in the 1st place are very limited.

Now this part is fun:

6 needles have already been removed. The dragon slumbering below
is starting to wake.

The dragon comes closer and closer to waking up as more needles were pulled, what did that have to do with Lucas again? Well:

PULL OUT THE NEEDLE.

"Lucas learns PK LOVE Ħ."

So, as the dragon gets closer to waking up, more power as in higher levels of PK Love is unlocked for Lucas, neat. I hope you understand that as Ness played on, they showed there was far more ways to improve power than just give him PK Rockin for leveling (in fact, that huge stat boost he got at the end says it all).

Naturally that has something to do with Claus as well, because the game clearly shows that Lucas and Claus gain their “Dragon power” at the same rate, when you fight Claus before having 6 needles pulled, Claus only has the 3rd level of PK Love like Lucas as you can see from this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX8Jm7duPuQ

However, when you fight him as the final boss right by the 7th needle, he has the 4th level like Lucas, who for the record has only had it for that chapter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q66PgnDjKUo&feature=related

That can only mean that the power is linked to both of them and Porky really couldn’t fully control it unless Lucas was gone, which is why Claus was waiting for you at the end of the game instead of just pulling the final needle and destroying you all.

Also, naturally Claus’ equipment was better than Lucas’ to the point where Lucas’ power really didn’t amount to jack at that point, so instead of losing that advantage and fighting a full out “twin god,” why not fight when you have the advantage somewhat still and do it when the “bulk of the power” is still sleeping in them?

I think it was more about Ness overcomming his inner fears, which made him stronger. Physically, he probably didn't even went there anyways (even though he gets new equipment and stuff there) and it was only mentally / psychic.

Actually he absorbed the power of the earth as well according to the game’s script:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560

'Ness made all of the hidden powers his own.
'Ness absorbed the power of the land into his heart, and Magicant was no more.

Magicant was linked to the power of the land, when Ness absorbed the power of the land Magicant was destroyed (however, it’s not like it is the only land that is destroyed in the Mother series though of course that had some real tones to it ^_^).

Of course the funny thing about this is that the 8 spots don’t heal you fully anymore after you absorb them in the game, did you know that?

As I said before, she'd die easier and she has no real method of killing. Or at least, not nearly as effective as the other characters.

She is super human because of machine implants from the GF and her Chozo DNA and you think she has no real method of killing? What about just breaking your neck when you are tased and helpless? Snake does it just fine from sneaking up on most characters.

How about instead of killing you she just ties you up? I mean the thread only says you have to beat them, why does everyone have to kill?

I mean the only reason I see Snake beating her in the 1st place outside of the suit is because of his stealth stuff.

I don't think canoncally, that Mario would be able to still use those sort of moves outside the universe those stars and crystals and stuff belong to.

Wait, so you are going to try this now even though there is no proof that Mario wouldn’t be unable to use it in another dimension? What about Ganondorf or any of those other characters with god powers? Are you going to try and stop their power as well? At least characters like Ness/Lucas, Mario characters, Kirby, Pit, Falcon, and such have the advantage of having actual natural god power. Zelda characters, and FE characters don’t even call the god powers their own AT ALL!

Oh and Mario being a star child makes it more than just an item, Mario is a living Macguffin!

But generally, Link is already pretty skilled with the sword.

Yes, because jumping at a foe, stabbing a foe, doing a horizontal or vertical slice is so skilled. Again the fact remains that “skilled” foes don’t even show up until later in the games. Plus I don’t know why the idea of “transference of skills” wouldn’t affect Link somewhat when it comes to aiming a bow and using it, the Link in TP has been trained in dealing with out of control farm animals and stuff like that.

I can't think of no real fight where Link gets overpowered, badly.

You miss my point, by the time harder foes come along in the Zelda games, Link has had a sword and bow for a while or such. It’s more of this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfEvil

Cause he's a kid?

Funny, with you saying that for the record only proves my point about how Link isn’t super human.

I also think Link could kill ZSS with the bow eventually. Theres also the Mirror Shield which might reflect ZSS's paralyser, or at least stop it I think.

So, magic like Din’s fire and such with a start up time makes you think Link wins? Plus what makes you think Link will hit Zamus with that bow before being just shot with a taser? What makes you think Link is going to be holding out the bow and firing AND blocking at the same time? If any character is going to be multitasking in this thread with weapons and such, I’d put my money on psychic’s before I put money on the guy with a million tools and only two arms.

It's just more that it's.. hard to find a way to beat him really according to Zelda's canon.

How? You need some blessed weapon or some other Macguffin, what character in this thread really doesn’t get a weapon that fights evil again?

Did Link had the Triforce then?

He has the mark of it on his arm, which allowed him to remove various barriers and such.

For the record, I think OoA/OoS Link is the strongest out of the Link’s total, just saying.

Maybe he wanted a fair fight?

What makes you think he wants a fair fight? The guy killed his own men to get the triforce according to the back story of LttP.

Could explain why he turned bitter in the later games.

If LttP didn’t just have an example of him being fully destroyed and needing a revive in order to come back in the time line I would agree.

Not to mention, really unfair in some places. That game could truely make you feel frustrated.

Sorry, but do you think the SNES game was fair and not just Nintendo hard? GnG and the spin offs it has beats them all in unfairness, but sense we aren’t talking about characters that walk with Death (Maximo for example, how is Ganondorf going to beat him? Death owes Maximo for having his job) I don’t care ATM.

Still, I think it might still be deeper than most Mario games.

How, the guy (guess WHO!?) who made both of them has flat out said he doesn’t care about Zelda’s story so much for starters (makes me pretty sure he doesn’t care about Mario’s as well).

But the funny thing is, he isn’t the only one touching the games these days, so chances are both stories have gone beyond the complexion that they started off as (as in rescue the princess!)

I still like Mario’s more, even if the one time characters it has for its games should have more than one time having them. Sort of like Zedla’s one time characters it has.

So yeah, Meta Knight is fast as we also see in his games (almost impossible to dodge his attacks when he's close) but Kirby can also still beat him. With Sword ability even.

So, I see you are underestimating Kirby again, which makes you think Link can beat him, WTF? Am I the only one who thinks that with Kirby being a MIMIC would make him MIMIC MK’s sword play at the least? (As in, allowing Kirby to swing a sword at the speed of sound and such as well as MK).

I'm not thinking he's anything special compared to others. But yeah, I think he'd beat Kirby as well.

Right, the guy who travelled from planet to planet to stop a universe threat is nothing special. I like how you are impressed by Bowser almost becoming the ruler of the universe, but you aren’t impressed by the two guys who pick apart his plans bit by bit (oh and Luigi is there, he just never gets any credit, and even Bowser has issues remembering the “Great Hero” name of Luigi, because that is what his name means, just letting you know).

It would still damage him a lot I think.

About as much as an arrow would, but only because of an “arrow,” not for any magic part of it. I don’t see how an arrow is going to hurt that much either, really Link is better off saving his magic for better things.

Mario & Luigi: Mega Mushroom, thus yes. Not really convinced though, might as well be the other way around.

Oh yes, because they don’t have 50 different ways of just flying up there in an instant as well.

Wario: Only if he's truely immortal, in which case he should beat anyone.

He has ways of flying up there as well. Oh and if mega mushrooms are all you need, then you should be aware of the fact that Wario can use them, just letting you know.

As in, Fox or Falco without their Arwing or Landmaster? Then yeah, I also think they'd be screwed. But didn't they also fought battle ships like the Halberd before?

Again, I’m saying they can take him out of the ship with their ships, but as for actually beating MK w/o the ship, the answer is no. The Halberd isn’t MK’s best weapon for most of these matches, he is still.

Just him teleporting onto their ships would be a bad start.

Cause of this combo canon right? Wouldn't it be hard to get inside the Halberd when that thing is there?

Kirby did it two times in the game itself, Just fly to where the thing isn’t at and land there!

DK only becomes king after he beats them sencelessly. And it's not like those other apes aren't strong or anything. They were the kings of those kingdoms before DK came and beat them down (for no apperant reason at all so far).

According to the story of the game actually from what I’ve seen from things like the Mario Wiki, DK “saved” them from the main bad guy of the game as far as I can tell. He isn’t just invading their lands, the final boss for example ****ed everything up somehow.

Why can't it be as overpowered as it is to you? It clearly shows limitation by having to use magic in the first place.

Tink’s magic armor for starters isn’t allowing him to walk wherever he wants. Kind of hard to take seriously when the “areas” can still be reset.

Giygas didn't have a mind anymore iirc. He became too powerful, so his brain assploded. But he was still reffered to as the Devil's Machine, so...

Actually the thing that was the “Devil’s Machine” was the thing he was in at the start of the match, you know that eye that had Ness’ face on it. That thing was limiting his powers (as you could see from him only having Rockin beta) so that he could have some control over them at least. The gloves came off when he was let out of it, but so did any control that he had over his powers and himself, someone who isn’t in control over his actions isn’t evil in case you don’t get it.

Porky is more evil cause he still has a evil brain. It's that simply

Porky was the one who had control over Giygas in the end actually, as in logically he is the one who used Giygas to end the universe the 1st time when you think about the time travel theories in the games. Then he tried to do it again in Mother 3 using Claus, only this time he would have full control over the power because of his brainwashing goo that made people his slaves.

Yeah, Samus DOES kinda have a huge advantage over most of her enemies. But still, she shows enough skill to take down the likes of Ridley and such. Not that you wouldn't know but..

My point is that she has more plus’ over her foes than what things like the EB characters have actually, she still has the overall minus though, but it isn’t as great as some other character’s odds in this thread.

Of course Mario and Luigi have more advantages than her; it must suck for Bowser’s troops to be fighting a pair of super humans and to see your men wiped out one by one. Granted they still have number and the element of surprise 100% of the time, but just one super human made from Chozo DNA and “nanomanchines” is a lot, so what happens when you have two of them being powered by the stars?

But that's like the main story of a good 99% of all RPGs.

Besides pokemon, the Mario RPGs (well maybe for some of them and their characters, Mallow is like the only one who makes sense though, along with the babies in the 2nd M&L game), plus some characters in general like certain Phantasy Star characters (Rune) don’t make sense.

Yeah, but Pokemon is kinda different. It is also possible with real life animals for example to hae a stronger 'breed' of sorts.

IVs would make sense for having a “stronger breed,” and there are no such things as powerful Magikarp as well, but guess what a level 100 says to that theory and how the most powerful legendary is usually level 70 or so?

The deffinition is kinda overpowered yeah. At least, if put in a realistic way.

It’s in a realistic way in EB, Giygas destroys the universe however, he is afraid of Ness, Lucas is playing with a power that has unlimited potential to destroy or create, and so on.

That was in EarthBound?? O.o That would've been pretty cool, as I never managed to get it to work.

5th, 6th, and 8th’s 1st part Sanctuary are three bosses that are doomed if PK flash’s 2nd level is nice. (plus those bosses will actually chances are have you packing the 2nd level by then) PK paralysis works on Porky at the end game 50% of the time as well. Really a lot of bosses are OHKOed by Ness, Master Barf is KOed a good % of the time with paralysis as well.

EB and M3 are really ****ing easy if you know what you are doing (of course any game is like that really I guess).

Well, you alone basically changed the whole concept of the thread so... Yeah, your following the rules pretty fine.

So, I should just be happy with game mechanics being defined as how Link got the Fire arrow in OoT? Or now when everything seems to be out the window when my 1st complaint was that some of them don’t make sense but that doesn’t mean everything does?

No... But that was different.

How would Lucas having his team be any different than MK having a crew take over the Halberd and fight with it while he is fighting on foot when you can see in certain canon that the halberd is just fine with one man on the wheel?

Diddy was able to ride mine karts and rat-skull shaped rollercoaster cars to, as well as a couple of animals. But lets just keep it as simple as possible.

Mine carts and rat-skull shaped rollercoaster cars sound like they have to stay on a track, you don’t see me bringing up the cars Wario has on a track do you? (because he has them) Oh and I’m pretty sure all of those cars and for the most part animals moved faster than Diddy did as well, unlike with most of Wario’s things.

Diddy does have better handling than Wario in Mario Kart Double Dash and Wii though.

^_^
Yes, and I’m ok with spin offs where they make Mario the 3/5 guy despite the fact that I’m like 100% sure he is stronger than characters like Wario, Bowser, and DK in a good % of his games (not saying that “everything” is wrong with them, some of them like Brawl have background info on the characters, like how they say Olimar was changed to be playable in Brawl, but still, a lot of them have bad info).

Of course just so because I feel like it, here is another flying machine Wario’s money has got for him, and he seems to handle it just fine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ldou5J96xc&feature=related

Heh, I don't even own Donkey Konga,

Well, just so you know it sort of only backs my point about how I have trouble taking the DK game’s story seriously.

Flying pigs are only in Donkey Kong Land though, and I kinda liked them.

Well, here is your ****ing cookie:

But in DKC2; he build his own giant island (which he could use to get a good economy going for example, most likely for evil) and in DKC3 he was.. weird. In DK64, he suddenly wanted to destroy DK Isle. The least to say about his personality is that he's unpredictable.

He didn’t build his own island in DKC2, he just had proof of having a home once in that game before it was destroyed, and if anything his best came in DKC3, where he ****ed a banana bird and locked her up.

DK64 seemed like he started to go crazy, but that is the real example of him building an island (or in this case “rebuilding” it).

That, and Jungle Climber is a game faaar improved on King of Swing. Better story, faster gameplay, new game mechanics while keeping the good old ones and pretty challenging actually. Best DK game in years.

JC’s story really only sounds like it is there for the sake of having a story actually, and I still want to know why a race of banana people would be ok with the idea of people/monkeys eating bananas, or why a guy who’s only real goal before was to steal bananas, or be a ****er to a pack of apes would now want to rule the universe somehow with a macguffin that will never be brought up again pretty much like certain Mario RPG objects (of course a recurring theme for those games is things like the “star road,” so I’m more forgiving with them and their BS, which they really seem to be only poking at and making fun of it, I don’t see how it is always 100% serious with them either).

However, I don’t have any issues with game play in it, other than the fact that I would rather have a new DKC like game but know that Nintendo would rather pump out ****ing racing games of DK or such these days. Of course another improvement on the game series in general I guess is that there is a clear limit to how often DK can turn on his “help me” buttons (invulnerability) instead of just blowing 10 bananas or so a pop.

Yeah maybe I underestimated the Mario RPGs a little. But I liked the ones I played. Super Paper Mario imo is still the best. Second comes Mario & Luigi 1.

Super Paper Mario is weak compared to the other two Paper Mario games IMO. Mario RPG was the start of them and was the one that started to make Bowser seem to have a crush on Peach and such.

I'd think the blast would do the damage actually, not the bad playing. It has pretty bad start up time though, so Diddy would need to get out of Wario's range.

So, how would the blast from the guitar damage Wario? That alarm clock I showed was destroying parts of the castle and it didn’t do **** to Wario.

But that's all in one game right? Is there any explanation of why Wario survives those crazy things?

Again, reaction abilities are in more than one game, and not every game has the same ones (and there are a few I’ve left out).

There has never been any reason for why Wario lives from those things, but considering how his back story has him being a master at “various” magic like Bowser and considering how he is a star child like Bowser, I’m going to say that is the reason (he has been shown to hypnotize entire lands you know, as well as use growth changing magic and such).

I mean Bowser is knocked into a star in SMG, and he is just fine after that.

Sure he can, but where exactly in the way DK does it like in Jungle Beat?

Well considering how Wario has been shown to dart across water and such at a super high speed, but you clearly have the game not showing “true” speed, I’d say the game play is slowed down on purpose in those games.

Of course that ability is just DK slapping his hands, which is really only as fast as the game shows it, considering how that is his main source of attack, defense, puzzle sloving, and everything in that game, it only makes sense to have it be “fast” despite several other games clearly showing DK has never attacked at those speeds.

Of course, I think you would agree on the fact that DK in that game is completely sort of in a different tone than what he was in the DKC games right?

Personally I don’t see why a timer matters for abilities when said timer is very short in the 1st place.

That's a pretty similar ability I must say...

Except Wario’s “adjusts” the land, or “destroys” large parts of it, and said wave is about as large as the screen.
Just saying I’m more impressed by what Wario uses his for, which includes setting off bombs and such.

DK can do stuff like that to in DK64 when holding in the attack button. You'll then charge up and release a shockwave to as well, so DK has different options with this as well.

Said shock wave from Wario slamming the ground creates the same effect as him just punching the ground at the right height.
Also, how come DK’s ground slam costs a crystal coconut, and like his ground pound his ground slam is at the same power as Tiny Kong’s again somehow? Or how come it doesn’t have any other method of play other than really just getting a 5 coin for all of the Kongs you have unlocked, other than the fact that “balance” for DK64 is very bad (as you could see from the multiplayer part of the game)?

DK:JB did have a sequal, but it wasn't on a console, it was a arcade game called Jungle Fever.

So, there are more games out there that have no supporting back story to the DKC games or what? God, no wonder DK being a star child makes no sense; we don’t even know which one that DK is! ^_^

Anyway, got any game play examples from those games?

DK isn't close to Wario in power, he beats him in it.

I’m still waiting for a reason why. I mean DK’s strength still just seems natural from a great ape minus things like the shock wave, where as Mario/Luigi/Wario are clearly super human+ with his traits (and Bowser is just a monster).

Speed: check this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1ScmdkywTg . DK was never really slow to begin with. He could use his strenght to gain speed.

So, DK using his strength to gain speed makes him faster than a guy who darts across water? Plus it’s not like Wario doesn’t use his strength to gain speed when he just busts through every obstacle out there in general w/o slowing down.

Durability: except for never being crushed, or cut in half, DK has survived nasty stuff. He's been under heavy fire many times (DKC2 boss battle, Jungle Beat and even Jungle Climber and King of Swing) and is pretty much immortal in Jungle Beat.

What makes you think Wario has never been under “heavy fire” many times? All of the treasure in one of his game’s comes to life and pretty much want him dead.

That enemy probably has much less range than DK anyways. What happens to Wario anyway when he's hit by that sound attack?

He:
A. Wakes up and is POed, the game then actually starts. Of course that is only if you start to move him of course.
B. Sleeps through it and you get an alternate path through the story.

The story for the game really only has him robbing Syrup after getting his own loot back, pretty much anything that happens, could have happened.

That'd only work if Wario is able to stun DK hard. You have any vids where this situation is happening?

What makes you think DK can’t be stunned? All he needs is a good hit at the right moment and he “loses a life” (because he has to take a “break”) as he holds his head rubbing “where it hurts” in a good % of his games. My point is, DK can be thrown for a loop pretty well, hell Wario can, but it’s not like he won’t “recover” from it.

Plus it’s not like DK can just fly in the air throwing off his shock wave, he has to come down some time. That sounds like a great time if any to launch a “quake” and stun him.

But please explain why you think invurnerability is BS??

Maybe because it is common as dirt game mechanic in platform/adventure games where a character dies in two hits usually anyway just from touching a foe, and there are things in the platform games in the 1st place showing off how it isn’t really “invulnerability” in the 1st place, such as pitfalls, walls crushing you, and an actual definition in some cases later on in the game for what the stuff really is and the like.

here DK is resisting lava.

Actually DK has to redo the start of the lava flow instead when he hits the stuff (not the level, just where the lava starts), unlike with characters like Mario and Wario for the most part these days (and btw, when you have to “redo an area” in a video game, it means logically, you “died” when you hit the thing that makes you have to redo it).

At 03.00 you also see him destroying big *** meteors with the Sound Wave attack.

I wouldn’t call those “fireballs” that he is knocking away “meteors.”

Plus I’m pretty sure reflecting projectiles from bosses, stages, or whatever is something pretty common in games in general as well with pretty much every character in some way in this thread.
Mario games, Zelda games, some Kirby games, even a boss or so in Metroid Prime 3, some pokemon moves give this off, and Sonic has done it a few times as well off the top of my head.

I think you are giving too much credit to that shock wave, I know for a fact that it doesn’t stop everything that is thrown at DK for one, plus some foes aren’t affected by it unlike with his hands (which btw an great ape grabbing you should be a bad thing).

This video is also pretty awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7RyKEQW5Ok&feature=watch_response . Check around 06.25.

Do you mean the part where he bounces an armadillo a bit after stunning him before finishing him off? Mario and such do that as well if they want to (play with their foe); ever notice just how “outmatched” Bowser really is vs. Mario?

And you only focus on how Wario can run across water but what other feats of agility / speed does he show? Diddy dodges canonballs and stuff like crazy for example. Can Wario do that?

How is me proving that Wario can run across water not pretty much a deal breaker for feats of agility/speed compared to a character that can’t? Chances are if you can handle something like that you are pretty agile in general. I mean it’s not like running across water is the only thing he does at those speeds. He also turns around while keeping the speeds (something I think Samus has shown to have issues with doing), slides, jumps, and dodges various obstacles in general.

But if you must, there are other things he does to show off his agility, such as this one boss I showed you before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnVcP9XiA24&feature=related

However for some levels, personally I like this level and I feel it does a nice job showing off some of the things Wario can do as well (Wario can take a lot of head abuse, just saying. Plus the level has some nice rope work in it as well):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CPqOuWjJKE&feature=related

And this level is just evil in the game (give you a hint, it has a lot of water in it, with Wario jumping from log to log on a out of control river and Wario feeds man eating plants with his enemies for starters), but watching someone else’s work is just fine for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jqKUQ7u1ko&feature=related

He didn't survived the microwave room did he?

He did survive it game story wise, however that video I showed just had the guy dying in it.

Why? It's a good quality game.

Ah, it is not a good quality game IMO. There are plenty of issues with it despite the fact that Fox could have just blasted the entire area up normally if he wasn’t forced into a world that didn’t belong to Star Fox anyway.

-Fox climbs for sure (and I don’t like how slow he runs as well) like he has that staff shoved up somewhere uncomfortable on him instead of just what it does normally and changes size (god even other “realistic” games like for example Ico don’t have the 12 year old little kid moving that slow while he climbs, and Fox is a trained gun for hire).

Plus a lot of areas don’t even have the option to “jump down” on top of the super slow climbing motion. So if you want to visit the shop like the game forces you to do 5 or so times in the game, you have to watch Fox move up and down that wall a lot, and he is ok with moving slow at it.

Plus I love how in the Krazoa shrines for the 3rd one they gave you rocket booster launch pads and the magic to use them, but for the rest of the shrines they still give you magic, but you have a latter or 4 to climb instead of just a super easy jump up there.

-In fact there is a lot of “filler” spend running and returning to old areas in that game despite the game having a ****ing teleporting warp stone (that doesn’t want to do its job because of it being a lazy ****, yet they couldn’t of just had the thing “agree” to warp Fox if Fox found it’s warp points or something. Then it could have been lazy still, but still useful if you don’t want to run around the planet 15 times to the same areas).

So, why didn’t rare think that a Zelda clone shouldn’t have warp points in order to cut back on time spent running around is my question? Why does rare want to punish the player for trying to play their games other than the fact that they did a ****ing poor job testing them and have a history of making ****y games at this time? (And chances are we will have someone like the AVGN playing in the future at some time)

-It’s too ****ing easy as well, to the point where it is just stupid, **** I don’t mind if the game can be easy to a point, but this is “beyond” easy, and for bad reasons.

I mean pretty much every natural upgrade is given to you just from playing the story normally except for maybe those staff energy bar power ups (I know they are a side tract along the main path though, just saying). Health upgrades are given to you as you play the story (and Fox could take like 12 hits to die before you got your 1st one, and unlike oh say Zelda, only like one or two foes take off like more than a ¼ of energy), and Fox can carry up to 10 life up restore items with a single upgrade bought for $20 (I mean even Link usually only gets 4 and you have to at least work for them) that activate when he dies and gives a full cure at that (unlike “oh say” Link’s revive items, plus Link also has a variety of them as well).

The SharpClaw foes just let Fox beat the **** out of them one at a time. Did people even test the fighting before saying it would be a highlight for the game, because only one foe with a weapon attacking you at a time while his buddies cheer from the sidelines as he gets his head handed to him because Fox happens to do for damage either 1 damage per hit, or 20 damage for a “finisher” (and “maybe” throw a punch if you get too close) isn’t that exciting IMO.

Oh and I love how people were saying that the lock on system for this game is good, yet IIRC you can’t change targets unless you put the staff away.

Oh and Fox doesn’t have much if any “flinching” animation as well, so climbing up a wall that has fire blowing out of it is easy as **** because nothing stops Fox like it would with oh say “Link” (not like I would want to stop of course, because Fox climbs like a ****er as well like I said before).

So, adding on to how Fox has a ton of health and a large supply of life up restore items (and it’s not even hard to restore life w/o using them, just bust open the crates the game gives you every small walk or so), you can really just blow through the game w/o any issue at all. I mean **** DK in DKJB never running out of life because people don’t know that a difficulty is ok as long as it is fair, Fox in Dinosaur Planet is where it is at for easy difficulty for the wrong reasons.

-There really is no reason to get sidetracked except for those Cheat Tokens (which don’t even unlock anything nice btw besides a shoddy sound test option that doesn’t even give you the names of the sounds or what sound you are on, WTF rare?) or saving the Lightfoot village kids (which doesn’t even really give you anything nice as well again besides a few fuel cells and a cheat token).

-I love how Fox is the only one playable for 95% of the game despite that the art work for the game shows Fox fighting with Krystal, Slippy, and Peppy by his side along with Tricky as well. Oh and how the game originally was going to have more than just one PC as well for more than a small % of the game.

I mean Krystal was trapped in a Crystal and Slippy and Peppy just vegged out in the Great Fox for the entire game and made Fox do all the physical work (overall I can sort of forgive Peppy though of course, for clear reasons).

Still, Snake was able to beat things like Metal Gears right? Would a Landmaster be harder to take down?

Things like the Star Fox team’s Landmaster was more advanced than stuff used even by the Cornerian army (because Slippy isn’t 100% worthless somehow) and has been shown to launch nova bombs (why don’t they just say “big ****ing nukes” for sci-fi instead of “nova?”) and stuff like that around freely, plus the rate of fire can be very fast or somewhat slow depending on the type of Landmaster (and can be charged of course the Landmaster is build for anti-air combat just to let you know), create a barrier shield while rolling, and has limited flight/hovering ability even, of course all of the abilities such as rolling or flight is because the thing is built with the same design on what makes an Arwing. Oh and said tanks can be delivered anywhere with radar (and said radar can be hidden/blocked out as well).

Things like Metal Gear REX had the ability to launch a nuke at any point on a planet and it would be completely undetectable and untraceable (due to the type, size, and speed of the projectile, plus the fact that it isn’t a missile is another thing at the time, not for any magical reason, but because it is packing a Railgun). Before this Metal Gear was just an on land ballistic missile launchers or so pretty much according to the Wiki. Of course Metal Gear can be built for more than just one thing and there are of course many types; so you have some close up Metal Gear weapons with a focus on speed such as Metal Gear RAY as well. Of course the fact remains that things like REX and such are walking tanks, but it’s not like Landmasters aren’t just packing 4 all terrain tires for the latest model used on them and don’t just do things like hover and such. Oh and then you have this as far as largest sizes go:
http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Arsenal_Gear

I think Landmasters > some land Metal Gear such as REX or RAY (Arsenal Gear is for the water, but it’s not like Fox doesn’t have a submarine, just saying), but I do know a lot MG happen to be biomechanical, really it is hard to give a general rate of LM vs. MG when there are only like five versions of the Landmaster as it went on and 20 different MG.

Of course you are aware right that Arwing > Landmaster canon wise right? Just wondering…

Wario's powers have been rather random in most of his games.

So has everyone else's, still it's not like he doesn't have some defining characteristics such as reaction abilities.

However, DK seems to have a range advantage over Wario with his weapons,

Wario is packing a ton of projectiles as well actually:
-Cosmic Wario for example is packing a nice little "rapid" fire laser gun
-he has also been shown with things like fire flower fireballs
-other various fire power stuff include a dragon hat breath in "short range bursts" to long range "fire balls"
-he can create defensive/offensive projectiles with his Arty Wario form (and life up as well)
-I've brought up some other treasure found like his "ice rod" or his "thunder trident" that he has been seen using to open up paths in a game like Wario Land 3.

I could go on if it wasn't for the fact that I want to end this post.

shockwave attack,

I don't see how it is better than Wario's shock wave from him just punching the ground, it clearly has more issues with semi range if the foe isn't touching anything or so, but it's not like the range isn't "long" range because of that.

"Standing" on the ground is an issue for a lot of characters (of course, the funny thing is the shock wave sets off explosives even if they aren't touching the ground), DK certainly can't stay in the air forever.

and his own physical body.

Well if you mean by "arm length" normally than yes, but I don't see how being like that is that big of a deal when size is one of those things Wario can grow.

 

[warpd]

All Mario based characters have had the ability to grow in size (seems like it anyway). DK's shock wave attack is just that broken compared to Wario's. It negates elements, does not need to be charged to used again, and DK can just keep pounding his chest over and over.

You know what else is dumb about Starfox Adventures? The main villian that the story was building up the whole time gets killed in the most ******** manner. Granted he was not really an interesting villian, but still.

 

[_clinton]

All Mario based characters have had the ability to grow in size (seems like it anyway).

I've not seen any size growth that I would consider serious from Peach, Yoshi, or DK. Well I'm a bit iffy about Peach, is SPM's a good example? Plus is it fair to include DK in the series sometimes anyway, a lot of his stuff seems to be separate from Mario compared to things like Yoshi, and Wario is sort of like that as well, at least with him traveling in clearly different dimensions or so.

DK's shock wave attack is just that broken compared to Wario's. It negates elements, does not need to be charged to used again, and DK can just keep pounding his chest over and over.

How is being faster in one game and never again better? (I'm saying that DK has used that shock wave in more than one game, and DKJB is the only game where it is fast/doesn't cost anything)
Wario's as far as general comparisons go for the two games is by far stronger overall, the thing uproots small and large land masses, stuns small and large foes (including the Shake King for starters). Distroys various land structures, and makes more sense being limited to a 4 second charge or so because of how powerful it is (it's not like Wario doesn't have more than one attack option as well unlike with DK).

Plus it's not like Wario Land Shake it is the only game where Wario is hitting the ground with a lot of force, like I said he has use of the shock wave in more than one game (Wario Land 3) and it is a lot faster in some of them (Wario Land 3).

You know what else is dumb about Starfox Adventures? The main villian that the story was building up the whole time gets killed in the most ******** manner.

Yeah, I hated that as well. I wanted to shove my staff through his head.

 

[warpd]

Lucas might be able to attack withhis mind, but I don't recall any abilities that would give a futuristic jet trouble. Those nukes they carry would also be a problem.

 

[_clinton]

Lucas might be able to attack withhis mind, but I don't recall any abilities that would give a futuristic jet trouble. Those nukes they carry would also be a problem.

Those nukes they carry aren't even new to stuff that blows up on Lucas looking at foes, plus it's not like Wolf wouldn't regret hitting Lucas when he has a shield up.

Oh and Lucas just getting his power by the end of Mother 3 after just pulling the final needle and releasing the power into Lucas destroyed Porky's pork army fleets and the large shuttles they had. That movie at the end is only a tip of Lucas' power if anything from what that movie shows (destroys the island in a manner of minutes just by absorbing it all, guess what the power affects though if the user wants?)

Plus, again Lucas has been fighting foes in his game with sci-fi technology that are packing flight with ranged weapons on their hands as well. Why would Wolf or Metaknight trying to stay away from him work when it doesn't work with those other foes?

 

[PowerBomb]

Oh and Lucas just getting his power by the end of Mother 3 after just pulling the final needle and releasing the power into Lucas destroyed Porky's pork army fleets and the large shuttles they had. That movie at the end is only a tip of Lucas' power if anything from what that movie shows (destroys the island in a manner of minutes just by absorbing it all, guess what the power affects though if the user wants?)

Isn't this just fan-theory since the screen just goes black and the whole ending is just open to interpretation and isn't actual canon?

And oh god, not this again.

 

[REL38]

Isn't this just fan-theory since the screen just goes black and the whole ending is just open to interpretation and isn't actual canon?

And oh god, not this again.

No, no, no, no!

Don't bring it up, don't bring it up!

 

[_clinton]

Isn't this just fan-theory since the screen just goes black and the whole ending is just open to interpretation and isn't actual canon?

And oh god, not this again.

Yeah tell me about it, you think you people would accept the creator of Mother 3's input about the ending and how it isn't left up to your interpretation at all.

http://mother3.fobby.net/interview/m3int_08.html

However, to be fair, if you have read that or parts of it, I'm guessing you assuming that the screen going black is making the whole ending go up to "interpretation" just because of this thing still:

(Itoi)
For the N64 version, I was thinking about alternately just not having any dialogue whatsoever for the final battle. I wanted to keep the scene even more vague, and just leave it entirely up to the imagination of the player.

However, notice how the words are put together in the 1st place? The ending where he wanted to leave everything up to the imagination of the player was just "one of the things" he was thinking about doing.

However, guess what, he didn't do that in the end though, because he went with this clearly instead:

- In the end, the dragon is revived and the island is completely destroyed, but everyone is still alive, aren't they?

(Itoi)
That's right.

Oh my how about that, everyone is still alive due to Lucas' will over that power.

This is the reason for why they are still alive though if you want more, funny how it is pretty much the same thing that allowed Ness to topple over Giygas in Mother 2:

This time, too, shares that feeling of doubt about whether there really was hope or not, but everyone seems to be pretty unconcerned in the end. It's a sort of expression of human strength, this time, so it's more positive than the N64 version.

"everyone seems to be pretty unconcerned in the end. It's a sort of expression of human strength,"

Human strength, funny how Lucas growing up was one of the things Itoi wanted to focus on in Mother 3...I wonder what human strength would have to do with that?

However, going on this is the reason for the screen going dark in this final version of Mother 3, it is hardly just because the ending is "left up" to the player:

You had mentioned how in the N64 version, when you reach the ending, it's as pure white as the morning after a long, dark night.

(Itoi)
This time around it sort of seems that way, too, doesn't it? So at that "END?" scene, it tells us, well, it's over. You get the feeling that the creators, the characters from the game, and you--the player--make it safely to the morning and are all walking around a garbage-strewn town together. Children might not understand this, since they have never really walked through a town after a long night has passed.

It's dark because it is over and everyone is happy and it is peaceful, how about that?

Oh and I like how you saying the ending being left up to the player would automatically mean that Lucas having control over the dragon would be up to the player's opinion, even though that is hardly the case at all. If everything ended like you are trying to think and use for your argument, that would still be proof that Lucas had full control over it, but he wasn't happy himself, so he ended everything as a result of that.

Anyway, this is what Itoi has to say about that link the user has with the power:

- In the end, Lucas was able to pull out the last needle. But if it had turned out so Claus had pulled the needle, then...?

(Itoi)
Indeed, what would have happened if Claus had pulled it out? I'm sure the same thing would have happened, except that in the end, everything--even the breath of life itself--would go extinct. Even the dragon, too.

- Even the dragon?

(Itoi)
Yeah, even the dragon.

Funny how even if everything turns out good or bad that still shows that the person had a link with the power.

You people keep on saying that the dragon power isn't related to the person using it, and that the user is only involved in only "summoning it," and his role isn't much more than that.

It's funny I guess, but that idea is sort of hard for me to agree with when w/o the person using it for whatever reason, the power itself would die as well in the 1st place, how about that for a link?

It certainly shows itself off as a greater link than what some characters like Ganondorf have with their power, chances are I'm pretty sure that with every time Ganondorf has died, the triforce is just fine after it.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Funny how even if everything turns out good or bad that still shows that the person had a link with the power.

You people keep on saying that the dragon power isn't related to the person using it, and that the user is only involved in only "summoning it," and his role isn't much more than that.

It's funny I guess, but that idea is sort of hard for me to agree with when w/o the person using it for whatever reason, the power itself would die as well in the 1st place, how about that for a link?

It certainly shows itself off as a greater link than what some characters like Ganondorf have with their power, chances are I'm pretty sure that with every time Ganondorf has died, the triforce is just fine after it.

From what you've said and quoted, I've gathered that the power that Lucas called upon (which was not his) only reflects his nature (caring, I'm assuming), and had someone else who did not care so much unleashed that power (which did not find its source from within Lucas; rather Lucas had called upon it. Like pressing the red button to launch a nuke), then everything would have died. In essence, the power that is unlocked is like a mirror. That's a very weak connection.

Now, take the Triforce. It is connected by blood to Link, Zelda, and Ganon. Link in OoT is the ancestor of Link in TP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WOwrm8DEiI&feature=related Check out the "Ending Blow" as well as the very last words in the video). For Zelda, she's the princess. Royalty obviously follows a bloodline. As for Ganon, he never really dies or loses it (more often than not, he's simply trapped). The few times he's been killed, we often see him return later still with a claim to the Triforce.

Essentially, the Zelda series gives far more evidence for its claims. There are few instances where it does not back up a claim. For instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtQ9zNXMyxE

In that video Ganon clearly states the necessary requirements for defeating him, and then proves it just moments later. Note that Valoo (the dragon) is a spirit, and his power didn't do much except allow Link and Tetra/Zelda to escape (you might argue that Ganon was hurt enough that he had to wait a while, but nothing seems to suggest this. Given the way he acts in the rest of the game it's more reasonable to think that he simply knew where Zelda would wind up (which he did, as seen later) and he didn't think it worthwhile to follow in the overworld). So even having a diety's power does not necessarily mean Ganon can be defeated.

That's the main difference between LoZ and many of the things you're advocating. Just because we have evidence that is proven in game doesn't make Ganon overrated. Just broken. Metroid does the same thing for Samus. Earthbound does not do the same for Lucas.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Win = +1. Loss = -1. Draw = no change.

Current Match-Up:
THE SPACE WOLF Vs. THE PSYCHIC CHILD

Wolf Vs. Lucas

Vs.

Round 6, Match 9.

Overall Results

Wins +6:

,

Wins +5:



Wins +4:


Wins +3:

, , ,

Wins +2:

, , , ,

Wins +1:

:mewtwo:, , , ,

Neutral:

, , ichu:, ,

Loss -1:

, , , , , ,

Loss -2:

, , ,

Loss -3:

,

Loss -4:

,

Loss -5:



Loss -6:

,

Vs.

Sorry for the delay, guys.

LOSER'S ROUND 6

 

[_clinton]

That's a very weak connection.

Right, a power that dies if the user chooses to die as well is a weak connection

Might as well post this again because it is needed:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/914622-mother-3/faqs/42740

Anyway 1st off his main PK move, PK love goes up in power every time he pulls a needle in his game, hell Claus learned the omega level of it when Lucas learned his, showing his connection to the power some more in case we needed another hint despite the fact that it should be clear who the masked man was from the moment you saw him in Chapter 5.

Leder himself sort of gives a hint as to why Lucas gains more power with each needle pulled:

6 needles have already been removed. The dragon slumbering below
is starting to wake.

So, oh my, the dragon is getting closer and closer to waking up as each needle is formed, his sleeping power is about to be awakened, and as it gets closer and closer to waking Lucas gains more power for his main move.

Which btw if you can't tell from the default name of the move giving it away the move that hint it is that it is a form of his "feelings" as well (hell PK love has the largest range of damage for PK moves as well, just saying), which his feelings pass into the the dragon power when he unlocks it fully, how about that for a connection?

(which he did, as seen later)

There isn't always a blood Link between the main characters, Link in WW has no blood line at all to the OoT Link, he is if anything only "reborn" as the same one, but from a different blood line as clearly shown in the 2nd quest play through of WW.

Also I don't see why Ganondorf knowing where Zelda was going totally was a shock; it's not like he didn't know where the Master Sword was in the 1st place.

Granted the King says Ganondorf doesn’t know the location of the room he left Zelda in here for some odd reason (but considering how long it took Ganondorf to get her, I do think him being BBQed by that dragon did hurt):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj0Hrr7PdSI&feature=related

But what on earth makes the King think Ganondorf doesn’t know where the Master Sword is at? It’s not like the people who made the triforce can’t feel the presence of the users who might have it as it has shown as well.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/469050-the-legend-of-zelda-the-wind-waker/faqs/23534

Ganon: You have deceived yourself... Did you think you'd be safe inside the
castle? Foolish... Now that my power has been restored, there is no safe haven
for you!

Oh but to talk about blood some more, it is hardly just Zelda and such who have a blood link, the sages do as well according to the game:

In
order to return the power to repel evil to your sword, you must find another to
take my stead in this temple and ask the gods for their assistance. You must
find the one who carries on my bloodline... The one who holds this sacred
instrument...

Kind of hard to take the triforce blood link as being so special when every character seems to have a link. WTF is up with that? (Of course, WW's whole idea is that the triforce coming together would end that link as well, how about that? So, they only have a link as the triforce isn't whole is what I'm saying)

You know, it’s kind of funny what one of the messages are in Wind Waker, on one hand the game keeps on saying that the people have power to control and make everything better, but on the other you see that everyone is connected by blood somehow for whatever reason.

Earthbound does not do the same for Lucas.

You're kidding right? You think there is no connection between Ness and Lucas?

-PK Rockin's default name in Mother 2 clearly hints that its power is based off Ness' feelings just like how PK Love is clearly based off Lucas' feelings.

Hell the moves have the same idea behind them in battle as well, Rockin is the most spread out of the PK moves just like PK Love is for Lucas for damage.

The move is also the most expensive PK move in each game for cost (showing the cost on the mind if anything), and they each have the same affects as far as damage goes. Plus besides the projectile shape, they each have the same battle animation as well. Minus of course the “opening” PK Love has for Lucas in each level in case you can’t tell that each level starts the same, and ends the same, and for some reason there isn’t a difference between PK Love’s 2nd and 3rd level.

-Leder in Mother 3 pretty much drops the hint off that the dragon isn't what it seems to be as well:

The dragon
is the power of the land.

Oh my, what was Ness' power again called? Let’s check really fast:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588301-earthbound/faqs/34560

'Ness absorbed the power of the land into his heart, and Magicant was no more.

Oh my “the power of the land” is what the dragon’s power is hinted at being, and in Mother 2, when Ness absorbs that power, those 8 spots he got it from become dead land pretty much (they stop healing you if you visit them), which shows that the power is in him and that it can be moved. So what is so hard about putting 2 and 2 together and just figuring out that the power was moved to where Lucas’ island is at now?

-Of course PK moves and the same battle role (Lucas is a white mage that can fight physically, and Ness is as well, just the most broken class idea in MMOs, nothing to worry about) aren’t the only thing Ness and Lucas have in common with each other, they also have items that are in common, they both have the Franklin Badge for starters (a badge that is a symbol of great courage, how about that?) and Lucas even gets a weapon that was clearly used by Ness if you look closely at what it is called (hell it is even his best weapon overall).

Just saying, in chapter 8 there is that Movie Theater in New Pork City that shows off Ness’ adventure from the old game, and said place sells a bunch of “fake” items that are replicas of items that belonged to Ness and his team (well ok Ness and Paula mainly), including a “Fake Bat” that is clearly trying to mimic Ness’ choice of weapon.

However, as you play through the final chapter some more till the end, the last area (which btw in case you never knew where the last area was at, it is at that factory Lucas worked at in chapter 4) has Lucas’ best weapon in a gift box which is called the “Genuine Bat” (also known as a “real bat” in case you don’t get the “meaning” behind the name).

The bat pumps Lucas’ offense up by 100 and gives him 50 PP (so like the “Gutsy bat” of Ness’, it is worthless overall IMO just from when you get it, right next to Porky in this case).

The bat’s item description is the real give away though as for what it is as well (it brims with mystery and courage ^_^), of course there are two items in this game that belonged to Ness (besides that hall of them in chapter 8), and Porky had one of them in a chamber to himself at the Thunder tower (because Porky never forgot about Ness).

So there is clearly some strong connection between Ness and Lucas (hell it is even seen by Itoi's own development team for M3), we just don’t know what it fully is, which is again Itoi’s idea, are they related or the same or something? That is up to the player!

But it is clear “their power” is part of that connection at the very least (that is very clear, there is proof on that such as Lucas’ smash bio and the game itself saying the power is the power of the land).

 

[PowerBomb]

Not even going to type a legitimate response, because:

oh god, not this again.

 

[_clinton]

Not even going to type a legitimate response, because:

oh god, not this again.

Pretty sure you haven't really typed a legitimate response to that stuff in the 1st place when I 1st brought it up, all you have said was that you don't agree with it w/o any real reason for why you don't agree with it, despite the fact that I present links to where I'm getting my info from.

I don't see why you would disagree with the creator interviews, and the actual game scripts that are being well done with their translations (unlike oh say an instruction booklet).

I think Lucas using stuff like one of Ness' bats for his ultimate weapon along with getting other items that had a link with him, doing stuff like learning the bulk of moves at least for it's description in battle and story element for others, and finally the people who made this stuff give hints about there being a connection between them at least in what their powers are says some clear things (which is all I care about, I don't care if oh say Lucas is "related" to Ness in some way or he is the "reincarnation" of him, or something else like that, all I really care about is the "power" they both clearly have).

 

[ElPanandero]

Well the new one says link and Falco...so I'm thinkin Falco unless Link has some invulnerability I've forgotten.

 

[PowerBomb]

Well the new one says link and Falco...so I'm thinkin Falco unless Link has some invulnerability I've forgotten.

Nayru's Love

 

[ElPanandero]

Well that has a limit, correct? Could falco just outlast it in the air then arwing/Blaster him to death?

 

[Ganonsburg]

Not that I think it matters, but which Link are we using? Are we using OoT, or TP? Or are we combining them (not a reasonable assumption, but worth asking).

More likely than not, it'll be Falco. However, points for Link include:

OoT Link:
Fire/Ice/Light Arrows. Ice on a flying vehicle (well, almost any vehicle, but it's especially bad for flying ones) is extremely bad. Sure, even our airplanes have technology that prevents freezing, but I'm fairly sure that it doesn't help much once the ice is there. Falco's Arwing would most likely crash if it were hit with an ice arrow. Problems with this: The Arwing is much faster than Link's arrows and is very maneuverable. It's not even like the Halberd which is big and thus easy to hit. And once Falco is on the ground, he still has superior weapons (although I'd be willing to say it's about even on the ground; Link has much more at his disposal on the ground than Falco does and has a far better defense than Falco does).

Mirror Shield: Reflect energy based attacks. Lasers, namely.

Nayru's Love: Invincibility while he has magic. However, he can't use other magic, so he'd have to toggle the arrows and this in order to get anywhere.

TP Link:
Bomb Arrows. Not as good as ice arrows, but it's something.

Magic Armor: Invincibility as long as he has rupees.

Both:
Epona: Useful for extra speed and maneuverability

Clawshot: If Falco was silly enough to get close, then Link could clawshot the Arwing and be safe long enough to hurt something.

Still, Falco has a large initial advantage. I can't really see Link winning this, nor do I feel like delving in deep enough to find a way for Link to win it (only happening if the Arwing goes away).

 

[_clinton]

Fire/Ice/Light Arrows. Ice on a flying vehicle (well, almost any vehicle, but it's especially bad for flying ones) is extremely bad.

Ah in the Arwing case it isn't as bad compared to "our vehicles"

For starters are you aware of what the Arwing's engine is made out of in the 1st place, even though I've brought that up a few times I'll list it again:
http://starfox.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_Diffusion

Feel free to let that hit you and why it is effective and how it affects things like why Arwings don't need a run way to start flying and the like.

However, if you don't get that, here is proof that the Arwings can handle extreme cold of sorts because of their power system providing protecting from stuff like that:
http://starfox.wikia.com/wiki/Fichina

Granted SFA clearly shows some limits on what the Arwings can fly in according to Fichina in that game. Without that weather control system working they can't fly there (the weather control system is only the start of them changing the planet though, it is clear that even with it on the planet wouldn't be flyable), but the reason for why they can't fly there isn't because of how cold it is, it is because they can't see **** at all because of the weather being crazy, so it is too dangerous to move even with radar protecting them.

I shouldn't have to point out that the Arwings are capable of handling extreme heat (just bringing it up sense in your reply you brought up fire arrows but never talked about them):
http://starfox.wikia.com/wiki/Solar

9000 degrees F or so sounds a bit worse than what the fire arrows are shown to do in game's like WW.

Problems with this: The Arwing is much faster than Link's arrows and is very maneuverable.

Oh and the defenses it has because of the G-diffuser would just reflect the ice arrow with the wings and such from mere spinning, but that is another issue, the arrow even doing enough damage to even pierce the ship is another.

(although I'd be willing to say it's about even on the ground; Link has much more at his disposal on the ground than Falco does and has a far better defense than Falco does).

How does he have better defenses? Falco has barriers, jet packs, and cloaking devices for starters, and as far as weapons go his blaster beats a magic projectile firing sword IMO by far (I'm aware he has the mirror shield which might protect from that, even though Magic is what it mainly deals with, but I'll get to that by just talking about Falco's other weapons), and that is just the basic blaster, god help Link with all of the rocket launchers (lol bomb arrows), sniper rifles, gatling-guns, and other explosives Falco has, lets see the mirror shield stand up to a gatling-gun, modern ones fire 6000 rounds per minute, the best dark age archers could only fire 10-12 arrows a minute at best with a long bow, granted Link seems to be able to launch more than 10-12 a minute, but he isn't reaching 6000 rounds for a range anytime soon!

Nayru's Love: Invincibility while he has magic.

I sure would love to see NL protect Link from a wall master grab, just saying in regards to the so called true invincibility you guys keep saying characters in fantasy settings keep having.

Epona: Useful for extra speed and maneuverability

Yes, because she isn't breaking the no outside help rule at all, why don't we just have ROB from the Great Fox support Falco with more Arwings, bombs, and that stuff while we are at it? If one landmaster isn't enough anyway.

Clawshot: If Falco was silly enough to get close, then Link could clawshot the Arwing and be safe long enough to hurt something.

I'm sure Falco doing a loop while flying at the speed of sound or so would fling Link off, him doing anything at all sounds a bit off.

Still, Falco has a large initial advantage. I can't really see Link winning this, nor do I feel like delving in deep enough to find a way for Link to win it (only happening if the Arwing goes away).

Dude, there are other star fox characters have already beat other Links (and Yink is by far the best Link being talked about), Sci-Fi awesomeness > Dark Ages Fantasy **** as far as tiers go, just saying.

And this is really ****ing funny, you guys still think Lucas will lose to MK because of that flying war ship despite the fact that he clearly fights flying foes that out range him greatly with beam weapons and the like in his game, but its not like "arrows" from a dark ages bow would be doing any damage to that huge ****ing battle ship either. PK is by far a better long range advantage than just firing an "arrow" at a ****ing battle ship.

Ever wonder how fast a dark ages arrow would go as far as speeds anyway? If any ship is going to be out of range of things mere arrows only going at 275 yards or so (400 yards was the best cross bow in dark age times) will far be out of range before PK will especially world ****ing PK ranges on the list where you only need to know about the target when it comes to hitting it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Falco should win. And _clinton, your dominance in this thread is killing this all. Might reply your wall tomorrow or somewhere else this week.

 

[PowerBomb]

It's not that, it's actually just the huge walls of text everyone has been typing to and replying to. If you look back, many of the replies and arguments were quite short, which allowed for rapid discussion and more people to jump in.

People are lazy, they don't want to read huge, boring walls of text.