Smash Back Room Launched for Wii U Version

Smashboards is proud to announce that the Smash Back Room has officially been launched for Smash Wii U. In the past Smash Back Rooms have existed for Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl. These rooms have served the purpose of centralizing and organizing leadership within the community in order to come together for projects such as tier lists and match-up charts. Players, organizers, content creators and theorists have all come together in the past to push the scene forward through a collaborate outlet. In addition to providing the medium, Smashboards will also be providing the group with a monetary budget to allow the group to have more ability to see projects through.

Spearheading the group are three leaders: @Camalange, @Neo Zero, and @TheReflexWonder. Camalange has shown proven leadership both as a moderator on Smashboards and within the Smash 4 Sonic community. A dedicated content creator, he has provided a plethora of resources for the scene and works hard to push the community in the right path. Neo Zero dove into the Smashboards Rankings project, creating and training a dedicated team to compile the largest collection of tournament data for the Smash scene. This has allowed him to gain knowledge and connections with a multitude of local scenes in the smash community. TheReflexWonder has been a longstanding contributor to Smashboards with experience in discussing the theory-crafting necessary for modeling tier lists and match-up charts. In addition he has put his knowledge to the test and proven himself to be a top player with significant placings at national tournaments such as MLG.

The decision to delay the launch of the Smash Back Room was a careful one. With the Smash Bros series delving into new territory thanks to downloadable content, balance patches, and an ever-changing landscape with the transition from grassroots to eSports launching a group without a clear purpose and direction would have been ineffective. Now that the community has come together for projects such as community patch notes and more, Smashboards feels prepared to better facilitate these projects as well as given time for players to experience the meta before creating a premature tier list.

Well known and respected players from the Smash community included in the initial batch of members include @Dabuz, @Seagull Joe, @NAKAT, MVD , @TSM ZeRo, @Mister Eric and more. Once the group has time to establish direction and outline project plans more members will join the team. Users who utilize Smashboards as a resource have been primarily tapped for the group, however those who favour other mediums will still be tapped for input on important issues such as voting on tier lists. Smashboards hopes to continue to foster communication within the smash community and the 4BR is just one step towards providing the scene with the tools necessary to succeed.

 

To people saying it's too soon, do you realize the game has been out for over a year already? Other games had tier lists months in.

I'm more excited for some sort of standardized stage list - such a mess as is.

Oh definitely, we need to settle whether or not delfino, castle siege, and halberd should be legal or not. I think delfino should stay, but CS and Halberd need to go. Walkoffs have never been legal, I don't know why CS got around that, and same with stage hazards and halberd.

 

Oh definitely, we need to settle whether or not delfino, castle siege, and halberd should be legal or not. I think delfino should stay, but CS and Halberd need to go. Walkoffs have never been legal, I don't know why CS got around that, and same with stage hazards and halberd.

Probably because the walk-offs are temporary and the hazards are super telegraphed.

Those stages were legal for Brawl's entire lifespan with no issues.

 

At last! I'm quite happy we have a Back Room together for Smash 4. All the same, with this, it's difficult to ignore the death knell of the 3DS version... There are those of us who can't afford a Wii U, I really wish they'd do something for the 3DS version.
#dont-let-your-dreams-be-memes

 

Oh definitely, we need to settle whether or not delfino, castle siege, and halberd should be legal or not. I think delfino should stay, but CS and Halberd need to go. Walkoffs have never been legal, I don't know why CS got around that, and same with stage hazards and halberd.

I'm actually more curious about the stage ban structure. In a system with Delfino Plaza, Halberd, and Town and City legal, we have an interesting conundrum when 2 stage bans are allowed in the counterpicking process.

I play ZSS. Let's say I lose my first match. A low ceiling stage would be pretty nice, right? One might even argue that getting a stage like that may swing the match up a little too far in my favor, even if it's a counterpick. What can my opponent do about that? Nothing. There are three low ceiling stages, and it's not possible to eliminate them all. In 3/5 sets, DSR would eliminate the last one for us, but for all 2/3 sets there's no avoiding this problem.

A critical look at the stage ban structure and the potential effect that has on the counterpicking metagame should go hand-in-hand with a stage legality discussion.

 

Probably because the walk-offs are temporary and the hazards are super telegraphed.

Those stages were legal for Brawl's entire lifespan with no issues.

Yeah, but a walk-off is still a walk-off. And why should I avoid the stage's hazards AND my opponent's attacks? Isn't the whole point of banning stages to make it so you focus on your opponent and NOT the stage? Also, peach's castle is a legal stage in smash 64, so why isn't peach's castle legal in smash 4?

At last! I'm quite happy we have a Back Room together for Smash 4. All the same, with this, it's difficult to ignore the death knell of the 3DS version... There are those of us who can't afford a Wii U, I really wish they'd do something for the 3DS version.
#dont-let-your-dreams-be-memes

Tell me about it...

 

Time to get to work!

Also, here's a list of people in the 4BR so far:

Member list:
Neo Zero
Camalange
TheReflexWonder
Xiivi
Marc
Shaya
TSM ZeRo
Spinosaurus
J.Miller
NAKAT
Dabuz
Mister Eric
CHOMPY
John12346
NickRiddle
Fox Is Openly Deceptive
istudying
Myran
MVD
Thinkaman
M@v
Seagull Joe
san.
Raziek
Katakiri
Locuan
ASC | Red Ryu
Liberation
shrooby

 

I'm actually more curious about the stage ban structure. In a system with Delfino Plaza, Halberd, and Town and City legal, we have an interesting conundrum when 2 stage bans are allowed in the counterpicking process.

I play ZSS. Let's say I lose my first match. A low ceiling stage would be pretty nice, right? One might even argue that getting a stage like that may swing the match up a little too far in my favor, even if it's a counterpick. What can my opponent do about that? Nothing. There are three low ceiling stages, and it's not possible to eliminate them all. In 3/5 sets, DSR would eliminate the last one for us, but for all 2/3 sets there's no avoiding this problem.

A critical look at the stage ban structure and the potential effect that has on the counterpicking metagame should go hand-in-hand with a stage legality discussion.

Is that different from having two Battlefields, really? Or 1.5 FDs?

Even then, unless you can prove that a character wins such an overwhelming percentage of the time that it's basically an auto-win, that shouldn't really be considered at all.

We should learn from Brawl and understand that stages aren't an adequate tool to try to shape the meta with. That's how we ended up with prevalent ICs, trying to ban out every single stage that MK was good on.

 

The 4BR, huh...? A shame I'd probably never make it in. Here's hoping that this'll act as a hub for a universally accepted ruleset. It's great that we finally have a panel to decide the future of the game, though.

I think it's still a bit too early, what with the game still changing and such, but this definitely isn't bad timing.

 

Is that different from having two Battlefields, really? Or 1.5 FDs?

Even then, unless you can prove that a character wins such an overwhelming percentage of the time that it's basically an auto-win, that shouldn't really be considered at all.

We should learn from Brawl and understand that stages aren't an adequate tool to try to shape the meta with. That's how we ended up with prevalent ICs, trying to ban out every single stage that MK was good on.

If the 2 battlefield, 2 (ish) FD stage list exists in a 1 stage ban system, then it's not different at all.

I'm not yet suggesting a conclusion, I just think things like that should be considered. It provokes questions that warrant investigation using data. In your case, we'd ask "are there characters whose gain too much from effectively free stage choice?" Side-by-side to that, we'd have to also ask, "what counts as 'gaining too much'?"

I think Brawl was an unfortunate circumstance that we should be happy to not have to engage a second time. Meta Knight skewed the process of thinking a little too much, and that definitely resulted in an attempt to shape a stage list that mitigated his influence.

Smash 4, hopefully, has the chance to look at the metagame as a greater whole as opposed to a metagame that is particularly character-centric. I used ZSS as an example, but we could engage this discussion as benefits/detriments for top killing characters, side killing characters, etc.

Overall though, I think that the ban structure and the stage structure go hand-in-hand and should be considered with their effect on the metagame. Not as an attempt to forcibly shape it, but formulated in a way that allows it to grow.

 

This is going to be interesting for sure...

 

Oh, by.
Here it goes.

 

@Amazing Ampharos
@Thinkaman
These 2 need to be in the backroom, If they aren't already.

Seconding this, they have a lot of tournament experience that would come in handy and they both communicate their ideas very well.

 

CHOMPY
san.

well it's definitely nice to see Mii mains/secondaries in the BR as they are the ones who really understand what it means to use a mii in a tournament and that's really valuable considering Mii legality is probably gong to be discussed there still best of wishes for everyone and lets all work on whats the best for the community

 

I can already tell this will become a disaster waiting to happen. What'll happen is that the Back Room for Smash 4 has various flaws:

Lack thereof of representatives of all characters. You need at least one or two reputable players for every single character to make a match-up discussion work, or else it will just be bias. If there's not a single rep for a character like Link, everyone else will put him to bottom tier, for example. Just an example.

It only accounts for the Wii U version? There's such a thing that's known as the 3DS version and it still exists, and it has significant differences from the Wii U game to merit its entry into a Back Room. There are major differences between versions, so a tier list cannot be definitive without acknowledging both games as separate entities competitively.

General disdain and public disliking of a tier list will ensue, I can just smell it. People will complain that one character's too low and another character's higher than yet another character despite the yet another character being better than another character. I mean, it's with that first reason definitely.

I can list a lot of them, but then again the Back Room wouldn't need this. They're overly confident in their abilities despite this being true.

And honestly, a Back Room will never be necessary due to this sole fact:
The game always changes. Whether it's a new character, update or stage, the game will always change, thus making MUs next to impossible to predict once a new version comes out. Likewise, changes to characters or an addition of a new character makes it to where people go back to step one into making their tier lists.

With updates constantly coming out and characters and stages coming about, it'll probably be a long while until we can truly give a definitive tier list. And I realized a flaw; if the Back Room makes a tier list just before Cloud's release date, they'd have to do it again and start back at square one until about three months later. By then, a new update could come out, bringing them back to square one. Thus the next two months are spent. But wait, a new DLC character comes out, hooray, you get to go back to square one.

Holy crap, doesn't the Back Room seem like such a good idea now?
Because to me it's just a waste of time and money.

This game cannot have a definitive tier list until no more DLC nor patches come. It could take months or even literal years for this to happen, so having a Back Room now is just a terrible idea still. For the sake of anyone's time, just don't do this stuff yet. It's going to accomplish nothing unless the game finally stops its patches and new arrivals.

So again, I state it's a waste of time and money right now. We don't need this yet; it's apparently still too early. We don't want to jump to conclusions so fast like we did in Brawl.

 

Lack thereof of representatives of all characters. You need at least one or two reputable players for every single character to make a match-up discussion work, or else it will just be bias.

I actually agree with you (mostly) on this. I'd like it if we were to get a couple reps for each character.

"If there's not a single rep for a character like Link, everyone else will put him to bottom tier, for example. Just an example."

This is pushing it. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be that extreme.

" It only accounts for the Wii U version? There's such a thing that's known as the 3DS version and it still exists, and it has significant differences from the Wii U game to merit its entry into a Back Room."

While there may be some differences, there isn't much of a scene for the competitive 3DS community. The changes aren't extreme enough to merit an entirely seperate backroom.

" General disdain and public disliking of a tier list will ensue, I can just smell it. People will complain that one character's too low and another character's higher than yet another character despite the yet another character being better than another character. "

If those in charge of the tier list explain why they place each character where they did, I don't see much of a reason for anyone to be upset.


"And honestly, a Back Room will never be necessary due to this sole fact:
The game always changes. Whether it's a new character, update or stage, the game will always change, thus making MUs next to impossible to predict once a new version comes out. Likewise, changes to characters or an addition of a new character makes it to where people go back to step one into making their tier lists."

A tier list isn't the final word on any character's competitive viability, by any means. you can just as easily opt out of believing them as you can to opt in. Tier lists aren't static, either. They change as the meta progresses. People thought Sheik was the best character in the game at the start of Melee.

"With updates constantly coming out and characters and stages coming about, it'll probably be a long while until we can truly give a definitive tier list. And I realized a flaw; if the Back Room makes a tier list just before Cloud's release date, they'd have to do it again and start back at square one until about three months later. "

Being a part of the back room means that you don't groan over such a task, they anticipate it.

.....Although, I doubt they'd start working on a tier list before the December updates.

" This game cannot have a definitive tier list until no more DLC nor patches come. It could take months or even literal years for this to happen, so having a Back Room now is just a terrible idea still. For the sake of anyone's time, just don't do this stuff yet. It's going to accomplish nothing unless the game finally stops its patches and new arrivals.

So again, I state it's a waste of time and money right now. We don't need this yet; it's apparently still too early. We don't want to jump to conclusions so fast like we did in Brawl."

I understand your worries with the current system. However, we've got to start somewhere as a community. Up until now, all we've had is a lot of unorganized talk as to what should and shouldn't be done, with very little in explanation or analysis. The Backroom gives us a chance to partake in projects that, frankly, the community can not handle on a public scale. We have to have leaders, and I stand behind those leaders.

...At least for now.

 

I'm just going to say that as long as all characters can get at least 2 representatives (said representatives having played the character a majority of their time in Smash Bros. and have extensive knowledge of said character), it'll be alright with MU discussions. However, if there are 12 Sheik representatives, 3 Sonic representatives and yet no Dedede representatives, a clear MU cannot be drawn so well for Dedede because he lacks representation. That's also a bit overboard for Sheik reps, no less.

I can totally be behind this as long as there are some good and quality planning stages involved in this that ensure this can be done right. If I find flaws, I will find flaws, believe me. Just right now for all that we know, I'm a little iffy on whether or not it may work out.

 

Interesting. Didn't expect this to happen.

And people, do you really think a match-up chart will be created by 20 people? Think ahead.

 

Cool, maybe 3 stock 8 can finally be legal.

 

This is exciting but I really really hope the BR has learnt from past examples and doesn't try to create a universal ruleset. It's really not in any way an issue if different tournaments and different regions have slightly different stagelists and number of stocks, so it's strange to see people in this thread looking forward to the SWF 4BR OFFICIAL UNOFFICIAL RULESET v1.00 2016 & KNUCKLES

 

To be honest it would be great if the meta games would at least be somehow comparable.
2 Stocks vs. 3 Stocks is a different feeling. Regions banning peoples main (Mii) so they can't even compete in those regions etc.

I don't think we need a unified stage list but at least the base should be similar.

 

To bad that is very idealistic. The reality is that there will always be a character that outpeforms the other.

Sad but true.

True balance is too abstract and subjective a concept anyways. There's too many people who have wildly differing perspectives and preferences. And then aiming for as much canon representation as possibly will undoubtedly throw everything off. Alas, majority rule (i.e. give us true balance and canon representation) takes the reigns.

I also dread the inevitable tier list that will come out as it always had. More rifts in an already splintered community will do no one favors, and with this game constantly updating its characters and stage selection this is going to be one hellish ride from start to end.

 

Looks like the Smash4 BR members consists of 90% Mods/admins so far until more are added lol

 

Looks like the Smash4 BR members consists of 90% Mods/admins so far until more are added lol

It is just the beginning. Lol

When the time comes for more members, they can count me in because I want to contribute in any way that I can.

Nice to see that we're finally getting some direction.

 

This pleases me. Central leadership is what we need.

Perhaps if they have frequent 'press releases' less people would feel like they were being controlled.

 

Can't wait to see how this'll turn out

 

I look forward to seeing this in action.

 

This could be just what the community needs, or the opposite. I'm just hoping for the best. I'm pretty unsure that making the forum unreadable is good as I am a really big fan of transparency. While I agree that it doesn't work very well when everyone can partake in the discussions (unfortunately), I think everyone should be able to see them. If people give unconstructive criticism, then simply ignore it.

A critical look at the stage ban structure and the potential effect that has on the counterpicking metagame should go hand-in-hand with a stage legality discussion.

I completely agree. The stage picking structure is pretty weird and not exactly fair in general, so seeing things in a new light could be a good thing. Trying to cater the stagelist to the characters, however, is unjustified in my opinion. But one problem is that people think differently of what is fair when creating rules.

With updates constantly coming out and characters and stages coming about, it'll probably be a long while until we can truly give a definitive tier list. And I realized a flaw; if the Back Room makes a tier list just before Cloud's release date, they'd have to do it again and start back at square one until about three months later. By then, a new update could come out, bringing them back to square one. Thus the next two months are spent. But wait, a new DLC character comes out, hooray, you get to go back to square one.

Just because the game changes it doesn't mean that they would go back to square one. Going back to square one would be if a new game was released that works completely differently. Sure, a DLC release/balance patch will shake up the meta a bit, but it will probably not revamp it totally. Only parts of the game change for every patch and that usually means that only parts of the meta change.

 

What was the criteria or method for finding initial members of the 4BR? What kind of projects will they be taking on?

 

Very happy we finally get this. Now we are one step closer to a final tier list. I work with Reflex on Georgia PR and he's one of the smartest people I know. He will do amazing work.

 

shrooby

YO SHROOBY

HE MAY BE THE ONLY REP IN THE BR BUT I'M ROOTIN' FOR YA

 

All characters should be represented by at least one person who mains it. I'll do it for Yoshi

 

First order of business... follow me on twitter yall

 

We gonna get a stage list

inb4 Wuhu

 

Lovin a back room for Sm4sh, its about time!

One question I have though is how their discussions will be relayed to the rest of us. I Understand their need for privacy, I dont mind that their discussions cant be read, but when they do make announcements or whatever its gonna be, are they gonna tell us how they got to their conclusions? Id love for some kind of 'minutes' breakdown of discussions. Being able to see the directions the group takes and why would be great for everyone to see I think, so potential arguments can get snuffed out before they become issues.

Also, Ill second an AmazingAmpharos nomination to the 4BR. Regardless of his Sm4sh experience, his eloquence is worth his addition. Few people can relate ideas like he can.

 

Speaking of back rooms.........


Wheres the new melee tier list they said was coming out this year?

 

Does this mean we can finally get a tier list?

Please no. Smash 4 better stay Tier-Less. I don't want to be disowned just for playing Pac-Man as people already make him "Low-Tier".

 

Sm4sh doesn't have a very strict tier list at all. It's almost as close as Project M, and probably will be by the next patch. So I trust this group to make a universal ruleset for Wii U, but at this point not a tier list...
And yes, there should be representation for every character, even the rarer ones like Duck Hunt and Wii Fit.

 

Sm4sh doesn't have a very strict tier list at all. It's almost as close as Project M, and probably will be by the next patch. So I trust this group to make a universal ruleset for Wii U, but at this point not a tier list...
And yes, there should be representation for every character, even the rarer ones like Duck Hunt and Wii Fit.

Umm... What about Dunnobro for Duck Hunt and John Numbers for Wii Fit. They exist y'know?

 

Oh boy, this means finally a more unified discussion on legality, and everything we've been wanting to see a more decisive structure on.

 

Sm4sh doesn't have a very strict tier list at all. It's almost as close as Project M, and probably will be by the next patch. So I trust this group to make a universal ruleset for Wii U, but at this point not a tier list...
And yes, there should be representation for every character, even the rarer ones like Duck Hunt and Wii Fit.

That's... not true anymore. The gaps in character ability are starting to appear. They've been appearing since early this year, but in the last few months they've been large enough to make noticeable impacts on the performance of the cast's bottom half.