• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Smash 4 Initial Thoughts Survey

Status
Not open for further replies.

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
It's been a week!

https://jfe.qualtrics.com/form/SV_1RMchh4CodJ9f4F


This is a quick survey that will help us figure out where we stand and, months down the line, will show us what we were right and wrong about. Fill out the survey to the best of your ability and I'll post the results after we get some responses.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
You guys are fast, I finish the survey myself and check to make sure it went through and two of you already took it o_O
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,626
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
Answered mine. Only thing I was concerned about was it looked like one of the questions didn't load.

There was the part that said "Select any characters you think would be viable if not for 1/2 disadvantaged match-ups", and then there was nothing, and then below that it said 'Check all you think are viable'.

Unsure if that was display error, or what.

EITHER WAY, I think at this point I have no grounds to say that there are any characters that just aren't viable at this time.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
That just means yuo didn't select any for one of the other questions; it uses your choices as options.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
Yeah, for the question about "Select any characters you think would be viable if not for 1/2 disadvantaged match-ups" I'd be really interested to see what people say here. I haven't experienced any incredibly one sided unwinnable matchups yet.

Also, the Nintendo tournament running on stream right now is using custom moves. Pretty fun to watch how different the characters play with them and which characters are more viable. But I think it also has equipment (?) so it may not be the best measurement of how custom moves would enhance the competitive scene.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I voted to the best of what I thought of the cast, the hard part was indeed limited down unviable. Top tier was he easy one for me though.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
As a double post but I gotta say this, OS I do not think I can't in good conscious say anything I said in that survey will stay the same when he WiiU version or a month later with the 3DS. The game is still new and I do think any of the character I said in that survey could be 180'd for me later.

Still I gotta say universally. People need to stop over-hyping Lucario, he's not an overpowered piece of **** like Metaknight/Ice climbers/Fox/Falco were in their respective games. I did not vote him in the "viable" area for Os's stuff because I do I think people are claiming he is way farther better than he actually is. He's better than most of the cast but he is not someone who will dominate with what we know now. I am 110% certain of this.
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
Why do you think a character who was high tier and disgustingly underrated in Brawl, WHO GOT BUFFED IMMENSELY would be bad in this game?

Side B at higher aura levels is half the stage

HALF

THE STAGE

stop saying the character is unviable only because you use him

this is like delux but almost worse
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Personally I think lucario is kind of bad but I don't have much experience against him, only as him.


The survey is just for initial data gathering -- it helps see what we think now compared to what we think later.
 

Zigsta

Disney Film Director
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
8,316
Location
Burbank, CA
NNID
Zigsta
3DS FC
1547-5526-6811
When will results be revealed to us? It would be interesting to see our early thoughts.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
When enough people respond. :B

Or later this week, whichever comes first.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
7,292
Location
Land's End (NorCal)
I didn't say anything about characters because it's still super early, and without the WiiU version I fear "ease of control" is holding a few back / pushing a few up. Plus I just haven't played around with everyone enough. But from what I've played so far it doesn't look like there are any supremely unviable characters.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
Why do you think a character who was high tier and disgustingly underrated in Brawl, WHO GOT BUFFED IMMENSELY would be bad in this game?

Side B at higher aura levels is half the stage

HALF

THE STAGE

stop saying the character is unviable only because you use him

this is like delux but almost worse
I never said he was unviable, I said I think a lot of other characters are more likely better than him.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
I actually have a feeling that Lucario will be unviable in the long run. I just don't have enough experience to verify that feeling. Lucario's got a Bowser problem -- Bowser won't be good, at least not without customs.
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
4,903
Location
Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
4511-0472-1729
I never said he was unviable
I did not vote him in the "viable" area
Justin pls :p

I agree that Lucario is not the best, but he's definitely a really solid character. His forwardB can be ridiculous and out-zone even characters with projectiles. It also has invincibility frames, and obviously can command throw. Lucario with high aura is very scary, but I can see the weaknesses he has in his normals.

Also, Bowser might become less dominant, but he will always be good.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
Justin pls :p

I agree that Lucario is not the best, but he's definitely a really solid character. His forwardB can be ridiculous and out-zone even characters with projectiles. It also has invincibility frames, and obviously can command throw. Lucario with high aura is very scary, but I can see the weaknesses he has in his normals.

Also, Bowser might become less dominant, but he will always be good.
Sorry I refereed to viable as "top tier"

my b there.
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
I think he's top tier

+ Forces an approach
+ Extremely fast normals
+ Midweight and can stay at high aura levels easily
+ Extremely fast and long rolls
+ Strong aerial game and very low landing lag
+ Above average air speed
+ Absurd recovery, which has hitboxes now
+ Great throws and pummel
+ Great combo strings and potential at low to medium percents via aerials and utilt
+ Only lost to 2 characters in Brawl, MK (nerfed) and Dedede (removed chaingrab)

Can somebody please enlighten me as to where this characters weakness lies?

His grab is a bit short and his ground speed is below average. That's literally it. The only possible reason he has for not being top tier is if Rosalina ends up having a -4 match up for him, which seems unlikely.

Edit: #oop, I forgot to mention aura increases his damage threefold and that his final smash sucks now.

 
Last edited:

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I think he's top tier

+ Forces an approach
+ Extremely fast normals
+ Midweight and can stay at high aura levels easily
+ Extremely fast and long rolls
+ Strong aerial game and very low landing lag
+ Above average air speed
+ Absurd recovery, which has hitboxes now
+ Great throws and pummel
+ Great combo strings and potential at low to medium percents via aerials and utilt
+ Only lost to 2 characters in Brawl, MK (nerfed) and Dedede (removed chaingrab)

Can somebody please enlighten me as to where this characters weakness lies?

His grab is a bit short and his ground speed is below average. That's literally it. The only possible reason he has for not being top tier is if Rosalina ends up having a -4 match up for him, which seems unlikely.
+ Side B poke might force it now, it's still got that larger upstart. Others can force it way better than he can.
+ This is true.
+ This is true though staying at high aura depends how who he is against.
+ Good options if used properly, still is punishable and is less powerful given rolls being overall buffed. He still has strong rolls though.
+ Air speed is good but if his fall speed is like it was in Brawl with a worse dair it makes juggling him a lot easier. Even with UpB helping this out it still limits him.
+ Debatable, UpThrow/Dthrow have combos at low percents but he also lost his Fair killing with a lot of Aura.
+ He actually lost a little bit of this in the transition
+ What? He lost to Fox/G&W/Wario/Snake/Ice Climbers/MK/D3. Only character above him was Pikachu. Even was only Falco and possibly Marth. If he beat anyone in Brawl it never exceeded +2 and he had to respect even low tier characters because everyone was even or had decent/very winnable though disadvantaged.

His range isn't as good as it used to be on some moves, losing some disjoint and still. He gained on some. He doesn't gain aura from stocks anymore, so taking a stock first or a low percent kill is a lot more meaningful. Yes Aura gives him a lot of power the higher he gets, but he still loses out on what he can do, and safely. Side B grab got nerfed in range along with grab ranges.
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
+ Side B poke might force it now, it's still got that larger upstart. Others can force it way better than he can.
+ Air speed is good but if his fall speed is like it was in Brawl with a worse dair it makes juggling him a lot easier. Even with UpB helping this out it still limits him.
+ Debatable, UpThrow/Dthrow have combos at low percents but he also lost his Fair killing with a lot of Aura.
+ He actually lost a little bit of this in the transition
+ What? He lost to Fox/G&W/Wario/Snake/Ice Climbers/MK/D3. Only character above him was Pikachu. Even was only Falco and possibly Marth. If he beat anyone in Brawl it never exceeded +2 and he had to respect even low tier characters because everyone was even or had decent/very winnable though disadvantaged.

His range isn't as good as it used to be on some moves, losing some disjoint and still. He gained on some. He doesn't gain aura from stocks anymore, so taking a stock first or a low percent kill is a lot more meaningful. Yes Aura gives him a lot of power the higher he gets, but he still loses out on what he can do, and safely. Side B grab got nerfed in range along with grab ranges.
+ projectile
+ Being floaty isn't always a bad thing, it's half the reason he has a strong air game because he can just chuck out a million aerials in a short hop
+ His throws still kill, and the u/dthrow combo more than brawl, the only argument you have here is that his grab range sucks (which is still mitigated by high traction)
+ Fox/G&W (lol)/Wario/Snake were all -1, hardly the end of the world and the only one people played was Snake. Let's go through this for Smash 4 though!

Fox: idk where this character stands
G&W: still bad, honestly was never a bad match up for Lucario anyway
Wario: nerfed
Snake: cut
ICs: cut LOL
MK: nerfed, no range, tonnes of lag
D3: no chaingrab to usmash anymore

All the important matchups were CUT or NERFED

P.S.

The supposed range nerfs are honestly figments of people's imagination. They're not used to playing on such a small screen. Lucario's range feels the same, if not better than Brawl Lucario.
 
Last edited:

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
Seems pretty relevant in the back room about the smash game in a topic about initial thoughts. I would be more concerned about it turning into a brickwall argument than anything.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Rather than conjecture, does anyone have any Lucario results or videos to showcase their belief in him?
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
The things I said aren't conjecture.

I don't understand how things like "above average air speed", "low landing lag", "midweight" or "max aura being a 3x multiplier" etc are conjecture.

But no, I don't have any results or videos. People just forgot about the character. They'll pick him up whenever they realise he's stupid.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
7,292
Location
Land's End (NorCal)
Lucario's attack speed on the ground leaves a bit to be desired imo. But once they're in the air, you get a free AS. Which leads into a few more free AS, which will eventually kill. Yay!

On-topic: I don't have any videos to link. Let's hold off on character discussions until we have a ton of videos to watch or data to analyze, imo.
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
4,903
Location
Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
4511-0472-1729
We don't need to hold off on character discussion just because we lack a variety of videos and data. I just think that we need to be less focused on how good or bad a character is relative to the cast, and worry more about their strengths, weaknesses, and over-all assets. Talking objectively and comparing opinions on what we notice about characters is healthy discussion I think. :)
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
The conjecture part is 'I think he's top tier' and
+ Fox/G&W (lol)/Wario/Snake were all -1, hardly the end of the world and the only one people played was Snake. Let's go through this for Smash 4 though!

Fox: idk where this character stands
G&W: still bad, honestly was never a bad match up for Lucario anyway
Wario: nerfed
Snake: cut
ICs: cut LOL
MK: nerfed, no range, tonnes of lag
D3: no chaingrab to usmash anymore

All the important matchups were CUT or NERFED
So I've heard tons of people say Lucario is good, but have yet to see even a video of a good Lucario. o_O
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
so conjecture is thinking a character is good because of a myriad of character attributes

also quoting the matchup chart from the last game based off 6 years of data

ok
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
so conjecture is thinking a character is good because of a myriad of character attributes

also quoting the matchup chart from the last game based off 6 years of data

ok
...yes. That is exactly what conjecture is. Forming an opinion about something on the basis of incomplete information. You have no reliable information on how those Brawl matchups transfer to Smash 4, nor do you have any experience or evidence of the character attributes being a quality that defines "top tier".
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Are you using custom moves?

If you aren't using custom moves, your character choices are Sheik, Diddy, and Greninja. Maybe Rosalina as she does okay against those three, but she loses pretty heavily to other characters in the cast so won't rise to prominence without customs until there is saturation of those three.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I thought I had my main pegged, but Shulk is bad.
Aspects like this were only going to matter to me if my main was Melee Roy levels of bad.

Fortunately no one I play really imo fits this.

That said, I would like to see another survey just to see a change in opinion right before the WiiU version game out.

That would strongly interest me.
 
Last edited:

Keitaro

Banned via Administration
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
11,941
Location
Piscataway, NJ
Are you using custom moves?

If you aren't using custom moves, your character choices are Sheik, Diddy, and Greninja. Maybe Rosalina as she does okay against those three, but she loses pretty heavily to other characters in the cast so won't rise to prominence without customs until there is saturation of those three.
That's a pretty bold statement lol. There are a lot of other characters with great potential such as Sonic, Pikachu, Mario, Pacman, and more. Even without customs. The top characters aren't that set in stone just yet.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
Are you using custom moves?
I don't use customs because I don't play against IRL people. My job has long hours.

Without customs I guess my best and most played is Sonic although I'm not sold on making him my main for sure. Especially with the sonic community, so hard to understand what they say. But yeah I don't really agree with your statement about them being the best by far.

I'm in Red Ryu's camp though. I'd like to see another survey before the Wii U. Perhaps even a stickied survey on competitive discussion board (and/or Reddit) for curiosity's sake.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
That's a pretty bold statement lol. There are a lot of other characters with great potential such as Sonic, Pikachu, Mario, Pacman, and more. Even without customs. The top characters aren't that set in stone just yet.
That'd be nice, not seeing it yet though without custom moves.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom