Simon/Richter Belmont Playstyle Speculation

[Deleted member]

Sort of ridiculous considering how people have already seen the trailers for them over and over again (and that there are probably already threads like this, but this one might bring in new ideas. Or not, who knows), but discuss how these two might play. Personally, I think they might have a tipper mechanic with their whips on some attacks. Some of the smash attacks are struck at the ball part of the Vampire Killer, and looking at the sub-weapons, it might look like as if the Belmonts might specialize in edgeguarding. That whip tackle dash attack is no doubt probably a great tool for catching rolls. No idea how they're going to play differently from each other if at all though, especially since Simon borrows most moves from Richter's martial arts from SOTN and PoR alongside a lethal version of his somersault from Rondo of Blood as a down air. I'd like to hear what you guys think.

 

[Kona]

I'm thinking Simon is going to use the whip (obviously) for most attacks, but as well as for 'Samus style' grab tings. Then I'm sure he'll have at least a couple classic Castlevania NES projectiles (ie. cross, holy water, swords, axes, etc.) which is going to be OP in combination with the whip.. However, I also think that his jump is going to have that distinctive Castlevania NES acceleration differential.. Meaning his jump might suck unless they decide to make him a lighter character (like Falcon as opposed to Ganondorf.) In fact I can't really see him being able to perform very well in terms of vertical recovery, or even if he'll have a 2nd jump for that matter.. But all things considered I still honestly think he'd be super rad as a projectile-heavy brute with just one jump.. As for Richter, I haven't played enough Castlevania to judge his moves.. but he's an echo fighter, he'll probably just be lighter and use different items, or have a smaller whip but also have 2 jumps or something.
That's all I've got though lol, cheers!
粉

 

[Palta King]

I'm gonna quote myself

I feel that the central playstyle of spacing with your normal attacks seems too straightforward to continue theory crafting about, with the little information we have. What I'm eager to talk about it's the specials: how to open up the opponent, pressuring, making setups and punishing accordingly with the reach of the whip. So, I made list with ideas and opinions on how we can exploit each one of these moves.

Disclaimer: I'm mostly using as reference the frame data from this post. Shout out to JosePollo.
60 frames it's 1 second IRL. Human reaction time it's 16 frames on average, pro players get close to 11-12 frames.
Some setups maybe a little of wishful thinking, probably could never work on actual matches, but at the very least knowing that you have more options it's the base for a great pressure playstyle.



Cross: thrown on frame 19, animation ends on frame 62. But has FAF at 46. Travel away on frames 19-65 from the initial input, 66> starts to return.

• It seems it would be optimal to throwing it at a shorthop height (or maybe a little lower), so it could severely prevent rushdowns do to hitting at least 2 times both standing and jumping opponents.
• At 2/3 of the travelled distance (roughly a second after the animation started), before the cross starts spinning in reverse, the player's lag from the animation is already over, so a second hit is coming, and you are free to do anything from this point onward.
• As an antiaerial this also could lead to a defensive action from airborne opponents such as air dodge (directional or neutral) or double jump, being easily punished by the sheer range of the whip. I don't think clashing with an attack could work, because it destroys Wario's motorbike with a single hit, so probably has good priority/damage.
• As a generalization, the best option for an airborne opponent would be to fastfall to the ground and then shield, perfect shield, roll, spotdodge or just waiting it out. The last three options would give enough time to react if your opponent is anything but next to you.
• If it can be wavebounced it would be more secure and better as harassing tool.
• Throwing the cross opposite from the opponent so when it's returning it could work as sort of a Lloid for the Belmonts, maybe even for edgeguarding. Although it would solely depend on how much distance does travel in reverse before disappearing. Obviously, you will need to prevent catching it: D-tilt, crouch, jump or spot dodge could do the trick.

Holy Water: Thrown on frame 18, animation ends on frame 70. But has FAF at 50.
Hits the ground: without bouncing on frame 30. With a bounce on frame 45. Flame pillar active 1-50 frames, frames 30-80 from the start of the animation.

• Many clips on the trailers shows that with proper spacing you could easily combo the fire into a F-Smash or a ladder combo. If you don't have the spacing, it seems that the fire doesn't have a launching final hit, so at least open up for mixups because the opponent is airborne at the end of it.
• The bounce hitbox after the throw helps to better comboing into the fire, also give you more time to prepare the followup.
• The bounce hit could intercept the opponent's recovery or double jump and not launching them anywhere (sort of Falco's laser).
• B-reversing on the air could change your momentum and secure your landing with a flame pillar that last for almost a second.
• If it can be wavebounced it would be more secure and better as defensive tool.

Axe: Thrown on frame 30, animation ends on frame 80. FAF:??

• As shown in the trailer, it can cover many options on edge guarding: recoveries under the ledge, hanging, double jump, jump from the ledge, normal ledge get up and ledge attack. Buffering roll could be still punished if spaced and timed correctly.
• The axe ending lag is already over by the time the axe it's on the same height of the Belmonts. Following the axe with a cross or whip attack will cover the rest of the zone. Seems about the right distance to combo with D-tilt2 (Slide Jump) on hit or cover an airdodge on whiff.
• The arc in which it flies could cover 2 or maybe 3 platforms on triplat stages.
• If you are recovering from outside of the stage but higher than the main platform, you could throw the axe to cover the ledge, then double jump and tether grab. (probably the cross could work better on this scenario)

Uppercut: First hit at frame 6, then hits 5 times more until frame 21 (re-hit rate 3 frames), then special fall starts at frame 41.

• Great as OoS option or a fast one when they breach your zoning.
• Aside from a combo ender and recovery obviously, I don't see any other uses.

 

[yogsmash]

Personally, even though I am a dumb 15 year old kid who knows nothing, I see a lot of potential in Simon and Richter because of their projectile game, especially the cross. If it functions the same way as Castlevania (Yes, I have played Dracula x and super castlevania 4 b4 even though im 15.), the cross will be constantly moving hit box that goes across the entire stage with consistent knockback if it hits. I can see many setups and uses for this move alone. For example, if lets say he throws the cross away from the stage at the height of being in between platforms, it restricts the opponents from engaging him by rushing, which forces them to either jump over it to engage, block it or dodge it, or throw a projectile that has higher priority over the cross(Which we have not seen any). This is important as Simon is a camp/setup character with some solid combos. What I can think of after seeing the footage, is that if he can get out of the end lag of his overall moves fast enough, he can setup some cool stuff up like throwing an opponent into the cross which knocks them above and towards Simon, then shorthop holy water them to make them stay in the air, following it up with an uptilt, at higher percents, upsmash, axe throw, bair, fair, or even grab if holy water functions the same way as pk fire for ness, hitting them with constant hit boxes while coming to the ground, which can lead to true grab combos we don't know about yet. and these are just combos that can happen from the cross alone. other combo starters may be first hit of down tilt into cross to the above mentioned combo or upsmash directly after getting hit by the cross at higher percents.(Simon has plenty of frames to recover after the down tilt before the upsmash.)(Also upsmash range is broken). Besides combo game, I had this idea of using holy water as a way to return to the stage(When he throws it is sent at a 30 to 45 degree angle below him from his waist, which prevents opponents to attack Simon with aerials or close-up moves at least once before activating and could also probably eat projectiles while its active)This is very scary and could give him enough utility to be competitively viable even without the range on his normal and neutrals. But he has those because he is a Belmont and range is one of their iconic properties. Of course all this is just speculation.
TL;DR Also I forgot to mention this before, but I think we should not look at his projectiles as projectiles, but as assists like in DBFZ.

 

[SpekkioEXE]

Seeing how its basically a multi-hit, strictly horizontal version of Link's boomerang, the Cross has great potential as simply a spacing tool, a combo-starter, a ledge-trapping tool, an attack to catch landing characters, a tool for tech-chasing, and with its returning property it could be a defensive cover option as well. If it advances forward for a set amount of time instead of bouncing off walls, a lingering multi-hit hitbox stuck on the ledge could be a dangerous tool for catching recoveries, though this setup is unlikely and maybe a bit overcomplicated.

The Holy Water serves the same purpose as Arcfire, a multi-hit fire attack that can lock down opponents to start or extend combos, stuff the opponent's advances, and pretty much space control and conditioning in general. The aforementioned lockdown could also confirm to a well-placed tipper smash attack or tipper fair, but we have yet to see how the spacing works, and if Holy Flame has extra knockback on the final hit like Arcfire does.

With the Axe being a timing-heavy projectile with a set trajectory, it potentially lends itself to the best setups. It does depend heavily on having opponents locked-down or conditioned, or maybe it could also help condition opponents itself. Basically, taking into account this fact:

I think we should not look at his projectiles as projectiles, but as assists like in DBFZ.

The Axe could be an excellent complement to the previous two projectiles as well as other attacks, if properly used, in order to orchestrate some nice setups.

I have a lingering thought on the whip attacks,. If they're really going to be that telegraphed and sort of laggy, a spamming Simon/Richter could easily fall prey to perfect shielders if they punish accordingly. in this case the whip is most likely going to be reserved mostly for kill confirms and aerials, but nevertheless its range is definitely something, probably good for space control but not much for aggressive play. If F smash can be angled, with that range it could work as a two-frame punish like Corrin's. The tether is cool as well, adds an extra recovery option.

Edit: I have a hunch some of Simon/Richter's aerials will be pretty much fully autocancellable like in some Metroidvania games where you could short hop, swing a weapon, and the landing would cancel the weapon animation so that you could immediately swing the weapon again. Just a hunch, it probably would be too OP anyway.

 

[Nothgard]

I think the playstyle is like mix between robin and link in smash 4.

My perception is that all the combos are combined with the specials. I do not think it has combos without using the B button.
they are characters of spacing, no melee attack.

 

[yogsmash]

Ah yes,Spekkio.EXE, but there is no final hit box on holy water like arc fire, which i think is better for them imo.

 

[Nohbl]

Literally MVC3 Arthur.

 

[Nothgard]

I saw another good stuffs.

Spoiler: Moves

the whip had good distance!

Also, the up tilt had different combo's

More damage up tilt + up air

Less damage uptil + neutral air

 

[SpekkioEXE]

I witnessed a hard punch to the gut on several gameplay videos regarding the Cross. Apparently not only does it bounce back immediately after hitting a wall, but it also bounces off shielding opponents and attacks that clash (sort of like DBFZ deflecting) which limits its zoning/ledge-trapping potential somewhat. I have yet to see if these properties apply to a returning Cross (e.g. B-reversing Cross so that on its return it covers an approach of your own or a tech chase) but otherwise Holy Water would be the more efficient space control and shield pressure tool.

Speaking of which, Holy Water apparently counts as a thrown item, meaning it can be potentially snatched mid-air and thrown back at Simon/Richter under certain circumstances, though I'd guess normally it would be thrown too close to the ground to be countered anyways. No Arc-fire hitbox makes it more like Ness PK fire, which definitely helps during setups or for kill confirms, especially with proper spacing (I'm thinking something like a fighter trapped in Ness PK Fire receiving a decently-charged Corrin tipper F-Smash).

Controllable Axe angles sounds great, looks like it promotes conditioning and precision setups, though I have yet to see actual practical uses as in most of the footage I've seen Richters/Simons barely use it at all, never mind to effectiveness.

The whip attack seems fast enough for a Belmont (I like that it's almost frame-by-frame a NES Simon whip attack, complete with SFX) probably not a good option on neutral, but could work as a quick get-off-me attack (Ditto for the jab, which looks to be a multihitter like Fox's). The smashes still look more like the BnB of the Belmonts' gameplan. Not sure how landing lag treats Belmont aerials, but I still have a bit of hope for my previous claim. And that tether is deceptively long.

Every day I am more excited to lab this guy as soon as the game comes out.

 

[SpekkioEXE]

I just saw a match where a Richter attacked an airborne K Rool with fast fall up air (the hitbox that connected was near Richter himself, so I assume it was sort of a sour spot) and landed immediately to combo into a tipped up smash. Very interesting.

 

[SpekkioEXE]

Holy water only activates (bursts into flames) on contact with the ground, otherwise the bottle just hits fighters as if it were a Sheik grenade or some other small weak projectile.