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Multiple characters per third-party *franchise* is now a thing!

Sakurai has broken unwritten rules before; should this happen?

  • Yes

    Votes: 64 48.1%
  • No

    Votes: 51 38.3%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 18 13.5%

  • Total voters
    133

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
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Messages
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You do know that the Ninja Turtles has a full crossover series with Batman right? MK also crossed over with DC before with the game Mortal Kombat vs DC Comics.
The Ninja Turtles/Batman comics and MKvsDC are Mario & Sonic type of crossovers. Just because they've crossed over with DC in the past doesn't make them a part of the DC Universe. Otherwise all the different characters in Smash would all be considered Mario characters. DC comics has built it's world out of different heroes meeting so Batman and Superman meeting isn't as much of a crossover. But non-comic characters that DC didn't create and characters owned by rival publishers would be a weird crossover when they meet DC characters. So a DC universe game like Injustice shouldn't be having non-DC characters, especially when the guests are exclusive to DLC. But Smash could have any character because the crossover aspect is the main draw of the game. "Infinity War is the most ambitious crossover event?" Please, Infinity War isn't a crossover, it just uses characters from spin-offs of Iron Man. Meanwhile, Smash Ultimate is a true crossover because it has unrelated characters from different universes meet up.
 

Captain Shades

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
775
The Ninja Turtles/Batman comics and MKvsDC are Mario & Sonic type of crossovers. Just because they've crossed over with DC in the past doesn't make them a part of the DC Universe. Otherwise all the different characters in Smash would all be considered Mario characters. DC comics has built it's world out of different heroes meeting so Batman and Superman meeting isn't as much of a crossover. But non-comic characters that DC didn't create and characters owned by rival publishers would be a weird crossover when they meet DC characters. So a DC universe game like Injustice shouldn't be having non-DC characters, especially when the guests are exclusive to DLC. But Smash could have any character because the crossover aspect is the main draw of the game. "Infinity War is the most ambitious crossover event?" Please, Infinity War isn't a crossover, it just uses characters from spin-offs of Iron Man. Meanwhile, Smash Ultimate is a true crossover because it has unrelated characters from different universes meet up.
Injustice isn’t a crossover, I can agree with that, but that doesn’t mean it can’t have some crossover elements. Non-DC characters add to the roster and most feel natural in the game. I think Injustice can work like Smash, if they’ve had a history with DC then they could work.

To start MK actually has comics published by DC since Warner Bros. owns both. Also, the only reason we have Injustice is due to the crossover between MK and DC. DC’s fighting game side is because of Mortal Kombat, and the characters surprisingly work well together, mainly the MK ninjas like Scorpion and Sub-Zero. They feel pretty natural around DC characters now, and since DC has already established the multiverse and different Earths, it makes the crossover possible and not very weird.

Hellboy is a comic character, and is now getting movies made by WB, so DC and Dark Horse aren’t really competing. The two companies seem pretty chill with each other, sort of like Nintendo and Microsoft right now, so it’s like they’re competing, but really they’re just working together to take down the other company, ie Marvel. Again, he fits due to the Earths and such. The same applies to Ninja Turtles.

I will say, the crossover characters could have been better though if they were willing to go crazy. The franchises could have been ones that established themselves well in the DC Universe. Well my suggestion may seem strange, I think Looney Tunes and Scooby Doo would have been better picks. Scooby Doo has crossed over with DC so much that they have basically been integrated into the universe. DC characters know of them and they know characters like Batman. They’ve teamed up with the super heroes and gone against villains so many times that I think they would have fit better. As for Looney Tunes, well Daffy has become a full member of the Lantern core before and the Toons have crossed over into the DC Universe before with Bugs and Superman, Lex and Porky, Marvin taking down the Green Lanterns, Taz and Wonder Woman, and others.
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
I really shouldn't have brought up Injustice because this is getting off-topic. We should be talking about more characters from Sonic, Metal Gear, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy and Bayonetta getting into Smash Bros Ultimate.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,616
IT HAPPENED YOU GUYS! I CALLED IT!

They're using Echo Fighters to take their first steps into multiple-per-third-party-franchise territory. We have both Simon and Richter from Castlevania. AT THE SAME TIME!

Just think of the potential!
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,616
Shadow is really the only choice for Sonic's echo since everyone else has abilities that are too different to ignore.

But I still favor Akuma over Ken. The former has more unique abilities while still fitting in the echo role.
 

MacDaddyNook

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
1,197
Another fan theory obliterated. Not only that, but we've also passed the "Only two characters per company" fan rule also.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,616
Kinda makes me wonder, though: are Echoes the only way of getting second reps for each franchise?

I wouldn't mind that, though I expect that each franchise get a unique character next Smash.
 

MacDaddyNook

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
1,197
Kinda makes me wonder, though: are Echoes the only way of getting second reps for each franchise?

I wouldn't mind that, though I expect that each franchise get a unique character next Smash.
I'm fully expecting the next fan rule to be "any second character included from a specific thirdy title can only be an echo." The goalposts keep moving but at the end of the day, these "rules" mean nothing and Sakurai and co. can add as many characters they want regardless of series.
 

CaptainAmerica

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I'm fully expecting the next fan rule to be "any second character included from a specific thirdy title can only be an echo." The goalposts keep moving but at the end of the day, these "rules" mean nothing and Sakurai and co. can add as many characters they want regardless of series.
Hey, if it gets Tails in, I’m good.

This is shaping up to be absolutely epic!
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
Maybe we can finally see a Tails vs Luigi match? Or a team match of Mario & Luigi vs Sonic & Tails?
 

Erotic&Heretic

Smash Master
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Kinda makes me wonder, though: are Echoes the only way of getting second reps for each franchise?

I wouldn't mind that, though I expect that each franchise get a unique character next Smash.
Well, as I consider Chun-Li to be an important enough character to deserve a spot, I do hope that it's not the case.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,616
I'm fully expecting the next fan rule to be "any second character included from a specific thirdy title can only be an echo." The goalposts keep moving but at the end of the day, these "rules" mean nothing and Sakurai and co. can add as many characters they want regardless of series.
Personally, I like how they're handling this "slow" approach to third party characters. They shouldn't go all out and have five unique Sonic characters now, but they shouldn't stick with unwritten rules without changing either.
 

CaptainAmerica

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Sonic 2 was just my first video game ever, so I know Tails best as being exactly the same as Sonic. I always used Tails exclusively.

Plus that old EGM April Fool's Hoax...

We are exactly one character away from recreating this image. We've got :ultluigi::ultyoshi::ultsonic: and the stage..., all we need is the fox.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
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Sep 17, 2014
Messages
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Sonic 2 was just my first video game ever, so I know Tails best as being exactly the same as Sonic. I always used Tails exclusively.

Plus that old EGM April Fool's Hoax...

We are exactly one character away from recreating this image. We've got :ultluigi::ultyoshi::ultsonic: and the stage..., all we need is the fox.
Sorry, but Tails with no flight, no tail spin attacks, and no dummy ring bombs won't sit right. It will be worse than Ganondorf's moveset.
 

Erotic&Heretic

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Sorry, but Tails with no flight, no tail spin attacks, and no dummy ring bombs won't sit right. It will be worse than Ganondorf's moveset.
When we see Chrom or Dark Samus, I really believe that Tails can have his flight. Either as an Up-B, even part of the Spring, or even... As a multi-jump, like Kirby.
 

MacDaddyNook

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
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I'd like to reiterate that just because we have one echo for a second Castlevania character, doesn't mean all additional characters to existing third party games included in the series have to be echoes. There's really nothing keeping Tails from being a fully unique fighter or some sort of Luigi-esq semiclone, nor barring a character like Chun Li since she doesn't share any attributes with Ryu.
 

SonicMario

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no dummy ring bombs
Eh, I could do without that anyway. While I know it didn't originate from Sonic 06. (It first appeared in Heroes if you ever attacked when Tails was separated from the others) I've always kind of felt it was a bit of a dumb move and just like everything else in Sonic 06 was very awkward to use.
 

Quillion

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I'd like to reiterate that just because we have one echo for a second Castlevania character, doesn't mean all additional characters to existing third party games included in the series have to be echoes. There's really nothing keeping Tails from being a fully unique fighter or some sort of Luigi-esq semiclone, nor barring a character like Chun Li since she doesn't share any attributes with Ryu.
I agree that it's not written anywhere, but I think it's best that they take slow steps for now. It makes things easy on both the fans and the developers.
 

MacDaddyNook

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I agree that it's not written anywhere, but I think it's best that they take slow steps for now. It makes things easy on both the fans and the developers.
Fair enough, I doubt they'll go hog wild and throw in more than one or two per series unless there was a Ridley-sized demand for it. Since characters, especially as the get more unique, do take a sizable amount of time/resources to make, I would agree that they will approach things conservatively.
 

Johnknight1

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It was merely an Echo Fighter of a 3rd party characters. Richter is a very popular character within his series in Japan and with some super hardcore fans, whereas Simon is the face. It makes sense having both and giving them different properties the same way we see with Dark Samus and Samus, Daisy and Peach.

We are going to get more.

Ken is the original Echo Fighter, so we are going to get him. He's also a gigantic name in video games. It's a hand-in-glove fit.

Shadow being an Echo Fighter of Sonic makes a crapton of sense. You could give him numerous moves borrowed from other fighters not named Sonic (similar to what Chrom got).F

Don't rule out other 3rd party Echo Fighters (or alt characters ala the Koopalings/Alph) either. Proto Man or X for Mega Man, Big Boss or Raiden for Solid Snake, heck, even Ms. Pac-Man for Pac-Man could happen.

(Just don't let the hype train for Sephiroth get on the tracks haha!!!)
 
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MacDaddyNook

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It was merely an Echo Fighter of a 3rd party characters. Richter is a very popular character within his series in Japan and with some super hardcore fans, whereas Simon is the face. It makes sense having both and giving them different properties the same way we see with Dark Samus and Samus, Daisy and Peach.

We are going to get more.

Ken is the original Echo Fighter, so we are going to get him. He's also a gigantic name in video games. It's a hand-in-glove fit.

Shadow being an Echo Fighter of Sonic makes a crapton of sense. You could give him numerous moves borrowed from other fighters not named Sonic (similar to what Chrom got).F

Don't rule out other 3rd party Echo Fighters (or alt characters ala the Koopalings/Alph) either. Proto Man or X for Mega Man, Big Boss or Raiden for Solid Snake, heck, even Ms. Pac-Man for Pac-Man could happen.
I don't think anybody is ruling out more third party echoes, additional ones seem quite likely. All I'm saying is that same-franchise third party characters don't have to be limited to only echoes. We can get echoes, unique fighters and anything in between.
 

dezeray112

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Well considering that Richter is an echo of Simon, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few more down the line. Ryu's echo character candidates is pretty much going to be either Ken, Akuma or even Sakura.

[QUOTE="Skyblade12, post: 22199769, member: 256453"
There is no Street Fighter character that is even close to as iconic as Ryu. .[/QUOTE]

Ken Masters, Chun-Li, M. Bison, Akuma, Guile, Cammy, Sakura.
 

Johnknight1

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I don't think anybody is ruling out more third party echoes, additional ones seem quite likely. All I'm saying is that same-franchise third party characters don't have to be limited to only echoes. We can get echoes, unique fighters and anything in between.
You're not wrong, but I doubt you will be right.... in Ultimate at least (sans enhanced ports to other systems of course).

Like... the one exception I could ever see in Ultimate on the Switch is Tails.

But even then, Tails would basically be a semi-clone, because the spin dash stuff and a lot of the basics moves he does are identical to the ones Sonic uses in Smash.

I could see us getting 3rd party "Echo Fighters" with a few unique moves (Chrom already has a unique Final Smash), bending the definition of Echo Fighters about as far as you can, but not much past that (this could potentially work with say... Sephiroth).

Edit: Also like... any of the Original 12 from Street Fighter are uber well known, especially Ken, Akuma (though not 1 of the 12), M. Bison and Chun-Li above the rest.

Like... they're probably in the neighborhood of popularity/recognition of Mega Man, if not moreso. Street Fighter II is one of the highest grossing games of all-time. Street Fighter II made 11 digits USD worth of revenue and was a global sensation (that's in the tens billion plus margin... for one game!). Do not underestimate these characters' popularity or Street Fighter II's influence. IMO it is the most important video game of all-time. Without Street Fighter II, an overwhelming amount of PvP games would simply not exist, and the quality of PvP games would not be anywhere near as high as it is today across every genre.
 
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Sean Wheeler

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I think Tails should be an Echo Fighter. I mean he had the same moves as Sonic in the Genesis games. And the semi-clone like nature of Dark Samus and Chrom show that Tails can still fly even as an Echo.
 

Quillion

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Frankly, half the reason I'm against Tails being Sonic's echo is because I find Sonic's moveset to be boring as hell, and that's only one of two situations where Sakurai's stubbornness against ground-up revamping movesets bothers me.

I just don't want Tails to have an already boring moveset with flight tacked on.
 

Cetus

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 5, 2018
Messages
190
Having recently finished Bayonetta on the Switch, I wouldn't be opposed to Jeanne being an echo of her. I find her design to be very appealing with its use of reds and whites that just pop right off the screen. And she is pretty much an echo of Bayonetta since in the game you can unlock her and she has minor differences exactly like how an echo fighter would work in Smash.
 

SonicMario

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Frankly, half the reason I'm against Tails being Sonic's echo is because I find Sonic's moveset to be boring as hell, and that's only one of two situations where Sakurai's stubbornness against ground-up revamping movesets bothers me.

I just don't want Tails to have an already boring moveset with flight tacked on.
Shadow as an echo would be the same thing though beyond maybe a Mewtwo teleport.

I don't mind Sonic's moveset myself. The purpose of the two spindashes that some complain about is for mix-ups. Savvy players will know which is which move. But the purpose of it is to keep your opponent guessing as well as a hit and run situation until you can get a situation you can KO (At least in Smash 4 anyway. In Brawl he barely had any kill moves)

I get Sonic's Smash moveset isn't for everybody. But screw it, Sonic was my dream character back in the day. I will make his moveset my style if I have to. And I will play him the most out of any character regardless if he's viable or not. (Unless Tails gets in, cause he's my favorite Sonic character)
 
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