Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Shadow 111]

Yes but with all the experience you have gained playing in tough spots in tough fights, For you too pick up and invest what you may have learned in those experiences in a different character might not be as bad as you think.

And I know you personally and have seen you play, you have the mind games to pick up other characters

thanks a lot messiano :D. cheered me up XD.

 

[Praxis]

So those were really interesting reads. Here is what struck me most:


Sounds very much like MK to me. The first part of the article "What should be banned" made me feel strongly that MK should not be banned, because he is too good, but he's not too good.

The second part "Cheating" gave an example (Old Sagat) which, while not specifically banned, was rarely used because it was commonly accepted that he made tons of characters essentially unplayable, and as a result, Japan has more character variety than USA.

HMMMMMM.

Sirlin's always a good read, glad you liked it David Sirlin literally wrote the book on competitive gaming- I highly recommend buying it.

http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Win-B...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240440344&sr=8-1

But you can read most of it on his web site.

I linked to both chapters because I thought the example of O. Sagat was especially applicable to MK. It really matches up- except unlike O. Sagat, MK doesn't have two other characters that are debatably better or equal on a tier list.

I think Sirlin's article really shows why IC and D3 CGs should not be banned, more than anything, and it provides a really good frame of reference for discussing MK. We do have to admit that MK is borderline banning material- it's not a clear cut case either way.

 

[@HomE]

The problem with that is that "working" on a characters metagame isn't really an effective way to develop that character's metagame. It mostly comes from usage of the characters and chance findings of new strategies.

Are you saying that the meta-game has evolved over this past year without help at from the character specific forums? people find those "Chance findings" and post about them, ask questions with other knowledgable mains for that character.

To me the Character specific forums are like "mini think-tanks" ideas, good and bad get tossed in and eventually become part of that characters meta-game... am i completly wrong here? people need to discuss this **** and pass information along in order for the meta-game to evolve...

Right now instead of evolving the meta-game (using the method above) we are just *****ing about how one character has a far suprior meta-game. stop *****ing do something.

And just for the record i voted Yes, for the sake of variety.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It wouldn't matter anymore because that's all theory.

That thing where the Earth revolves around the Sun? Yeah, that's a theory too.

 

[Kaiber Kop]

thanks a lot messiano :D. cheered me up XD.

You're a jerk

 

[fissionprime]

Are you saying that the meta-game has evolved over this past year without help at from the character specific forums? people find those "Chance findings" and post about them, ask questions with other knowledgable mains for that character.

i'm saying that you cant just decide to develop the metagame whenever you feel like it. Even if we were to stop arguing about this and play brawl instead who's to say that any real developments in the metagame will take place. You don't decide to develop the metagame, it just develops over time through trial and communication.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just so you guys know.

Evo has banned Akuma in Super Street Fighter 2 HD Remix which is a rebalanced version of ST. Akuma was also banned in ST and he was much more broken in that game.

But even after rebalancing it was decided that he was STILL too good and too stupid.

Also what makes MK stupid is his option select. He has the best option select in the game by far. Option select is basically when you can do one action to cover multiple options. MK can easily put any character in a position where he can cover all their options and remain safe and he doesn't need to take risks to do this.

Other characters have option select of course and it's the main thing that makes characters good in EVERY smash game really. MK's option select is just super mindless though and doesn't take much skill honestly.

I hate option select btw because it rewards execution over strategy.

 

[tekkie]

Yeah but whats the difference? If you ban MK they will just start using the second best character, and you will still be at a large disadvantage. But if you, yourself use that second best character then you will have a better shot. MK isn't some auto win, so there isn't a reason to ban.

This was a while ago, but it's a response.

If I use DDD or Falco, they're at a disadvantage with Snake. Falco has Marth, etc.

If they use MK, I either use MK or face a guaranteed disadvantage.

 

[Eyada]

Just so you guys know.

Evo has banned Akuma in Super Street Fighter 2 HD Remix which is a rebalanced version of ST. Akuma was also banned in ST and he was much more broken in that game.

But even after rebalancing it was decided that he was STILL too good and too stupid.

Isn't that the game that was balanced by Sirlin?

Edit: Yes, it is.

Interesting.

 

[Praxis]

Akuma in SF2 was supposed to be an overdone god character though, as he was an unlockable BOSS CHARACTER.

I think they tried to tone him down in SF2 HD Remix, but I guess not enough to be legal from this.

 

[Syde7]

i'm saying that you cant just decide to develop the metagame whenever you feel like it. Even if we were to stop arguing about this and play brawl instead who's to say that any real developments in the metagame will take place. You don't decide to develop the metagame, it just develops over time through trial and communication.

But, if far less people are playing these characters in relation to MK, then there are less raw chances of something "developing", and therefore it will develop slower, or not at all in comparison to its development if MK was banned which leads to more people playing other characters, which leads to things "randomly being found" increasing in odds.

 

[DanGR]

If I could, I'd change my vote from "no" to "not sure."

 

[Eyada]

Akuma in SF2 was supposed to be an overdone god character though, as he was an unlockable BOSS CHARACTER.

I think they tried to tone him down in SF2 HD Remix, but I guess not enough to be legal from this.

He was intended to be tournament legal.

In HD Remix, Akuma is our chance to get a 17th playable character. By taking him down several notches to make him fair for tournament play, we get 17 new matchups in the game. I even put him on the character select screen so you don’t have to do a code to pick him. In a nod to his fake-secrecy though, he’s “hidden” above Honda’s selection box.

So how do we balance Akuma?

I'm trying to find their discussion on why he was banned. I'll edit this post later if I find it; or, if this post is buried under 6 new pages of discussion, I'll make a new post if it's relevant.

Edit: Found it. Read it. Made a new post.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

"Not sure" is being the Ralph Nader of this poll




BTW, hypothetically, if yes stays ahead, how large does the margin have to be to constitute any action?

 

[rehab]

Check the HDR section at shoryuken, it's probably buried pretty deep. HDRemix Akuma was banned because he still destroyed everyone with an option no Turbo character is supposed to have, a 100% safe jumpin, and Turbo players didn't want to deal with a massively dominating force being added to what was just supposed to be played as another version of Turbo. The guy trying to get him banned, a former (and present) Zangief player also manned up and proved his **** and beat some dominators like Justin Wong to argue a case to get him banned.

 

[Kain6th]

Just so you guys know.

Evo has banned Akuma in Super Street Fighter 2 HD Remix which is a rebalanced version of ST. Akuma was also banned in ST and he was much more broken in that game.

Just out of curiosity, how long since that game came out did Evo finally ban Akuma?

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Ok... this is about MK. Not Akuma
Unless the statements relate to the issue at hand

 

[rehab]

Game came out around early december last year, the rules stating Akuma would be banned in the EVO HDR event were posted on March 17th. They figured it out pretty fast.

 

[Deathcarter]

If one of the main reasons to consider a ban is about other characters' metagames stalling and developing much slower thanks to the 8 top tiers who between the 8 of them have at least one 65:35 advantage on every other character except Lucario, why not have high/mid/low/bottom tier side tournaments in addition to the regular tournaments in the same style that we have low tier tournaments currently?

The logic behind this suggestion is that there is imo a VERY SHARP decline in overall matchup numbers when you go from the top tier characters to the high tier characters right below them, a gap that is MUCH bigger IMO than either any matchup gap between any 2 tiers in Melee or the gradual decrease in character abilityas you go down the ranks, resulting in a MUCH, MUCH more balanced metagame that the lower characters can compete in and ultimately develop in while also maintaining the regular metagame with the top tiers dominating and the lower characters getting matchup experience regularly competing with them.

This does depend on the beleif that the top tiers, as a group, simply beat the characters below them to a much larger extent than the characters below them do to the lower tiers to a point that the remaining 29 characters have a much larger balance between them then the full 37 character roster and that TO's find the idea of high/mid/low/bottom tier side tournaments as one to be taken somewhat seriously unlike low tier tournaments at present time.

Edit: This is obviously unrelated to the Akuma discussion.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

does anyone know the margin necessary in the poll for any action to be taken?

 

[Remzi]

"Not sure" is being the Ralph Nader of this poll




BTW, hypothetically, if yes stays ahead, how large does the margin have to be to constitute any action?

I doubt the SBR will consider this poll at all, seeing as the last 2 also had yes in the lead by quite a bit, and MK is still here.

 

[Ich Bin Awesome]

"Not sure" is being the Ralph Nader of this poll

Lol, does that make "no" Al Gore?

 

[Hype]

I doubt the SBR will consider this poll at all, seeing as the last 2 also had yes in the lead by quite a bit, and MK is still here.

If you consider roughly 55:45 quite a bit. I don't.

 

[Messiano]

Guys Huge information has just come in...

Rangers Win :D

 

[PK-ow!]

does anyone know the margin necessary in the poll for any action to be taken?

I hope and pray to my dark, infernal gods that no outcome on that poll logically implies any action.

95% percent of us could say MK should be banned. And 95% percent of us could be wrong.

Oh and, clearly Akuma isn't comparable to this situation. Akuma was instantly recognized as *literally* unbeatable.

A fairer approach would be to discuss Old Sagat. Sirlin himself names Old Sagat as the very borderline. There's one difference between MK and Old S, though - Old Sagat was arguably not top of top tier. MK isn't.

 

[Deathcarter]

I doubt the SBR will consider this poll at all, seeing as the last 2 also had yes in the lead by quite a bit, and MK is still here.

I think the points made in the thread are more important than the poll itself, as the vast majority of the Smash community will probably never post in it. Plus, I trust Xyro that the SBR is actually reading over the thread.

So lets get back to discussion. What do you think about the idea I made last page about high/mid/low/bottom tier side tournaments and the idea that the degree which the top tiers as a group dominate everyone else is contradictory to the gradual decrease in potential as you move down the list?

 

[pure_awesome]

I think the points made in the thread are more important than the poll itself, as the vast majority of the Smash community will probably never post in it. Plus, I trust Xyro that the SBR is actually reading over the thread.

So lets get back to discussion. What do you think about the idea I made last page about high/mid/low/bottom tier side tournaments and the idea that the degree which the top tiers as a group dominate everyone else is contradictory to the gradual decrease in potential as you move down the list?

If I understand your suggestion, then it would end up being like Lightweight, Super Featherweight, Flyweight, Medium Rare LightMediumHeavyweight and all that in boxing.

They're there, but people are only really going to care about the big one. It's just in our nature to think like that.

Plus, wouldn't tourneys take forever? I don't think any TOs would run a major scale, just Mid tier tourney.

Guys Huge information has just come in...

Rangers Win :D

And Habs lose.

Spectacularily.

I hope and pray to my dark, infernal gods that no outcome on that poll logically implies any action.

95% percent of us could say MK should be banned. And 95% percent of us could be wrong.

Oh and, clearly Akuma isn't comparable to this situation. Akuma was instantly recognized as *literally* unbeatable.

A fairer approach would be to discuss Old Sagat. Sirlin himself names Old Sagat as the very borderline. There's one difference between MK and Old S, though - Old Sagat was arguably not top of top tier. MK isn't.

Old Sagat also was never actually banned. And he was only soft banned because he was gay and spammy, not overpowered in a general sense. MK is neither gay nor spammy, so long as Planking is banned.

Not really disagreeing, I'm just saying that it's not so cut and dry. Which you probably already know.

Banning MK seeing what happens, And then if he gets unbanned and people complain people can use the good old line of "Remember the last time we did that"

or the law needs to be laid down and make a standard that can't be discussed unless something really crazy happens.

I can tell you what's going to happen. There's going to be alot more variety, 80% of the community will enjoy it more right off the bat, and 10% are MK mains who will like it more eventually.

Nothing that we can learn from a temp ban is relevant or couldn't be learned by not banning at all. We'll just get to the end of the temp ban and say "Ok, that was fun, now what?" And we'll all look around, kind of confused, and just mill off into... whatever.

Well I DEFINATLY said at exactly 1000 posts a new AT for every char is found, I'm glad you quoted me on that, because you took those words straight from my mouth...amazing job


I was simply saying, we are wasting time blowing hot air up each others *** holes when we could be working on the meta game for the "under-developed" chars.

And all I'm saying is you're wrong and we're not. How you can read my post and think I implied that's what you said is amazing. A character's metagame cannot be advanced effectively by me just sitting here and making post after post. This problem, on the other hand, is one that actually can be solved by debate alone.

 

[theeboredone]

Well it would be interesting to see MK receive a temp ban to force M2K, Dojo, and others to use other characters. If the best players are using other characters, they will be able to expand those characters' metagame and etc.

On the downside though, it would be pretty scary to see M2K **** with MK, Snake, G&W, etc...

Screw it, I'm going to street fighter.

 

[Messiano]

vant or couldn't be learned by not banning at all. We'll just get to the end of the temp ban and say "Ok, that was fun, now what?" And we'll all look around, kind of confused, and just mill off into... whatever.

Good point we can learn without banning, But people need a push that is a fact.

Why take the harder road? Unless you have too.

And there is no reason too, I mean meta mains are looking at this thread right now and laughing because unless a clear cut answer is pulling away nothing is going to happen
and that translates to people STILL not playing other characters lol...

Also i agree with the poll having Not sure as being dumb, Because people who don't know are putting their opinions in when they shouldn't if you are unsure you should be reading and taking a side from that point not throwing fuel into a fire they shouldn't be at.

Its bad enough when people are blowing smoke out their backsides but sometimes you have people who aren't trying to be ***** but might not be as informed and swaying people with false or exaggerated comments

repost this with only 2 answers and if you aren't sure DO NOT VOTE.

Another good point was How many people would have to lean toward a side to get the attention or the action deserved I'm sorry but its already at 1/2 that is a pretty big margin and assuming that people will vote the same way if a new poll is released some of the "not sures" might go on the "Ban" side and tip the scale even further

I honestly would love to almost hold a debate over a Ventrilo or something and just have the back room listen it could be very interesting

 

[PK-ow!]

Old Sagat also was never actually banned. And he was only soft banned because he was gay and spammy, not overpowered in a general sense. MK is neither gay nor spammy, so long as Planking is banned.

Not really disagreeing, I'm just saying that it's not so cut and dry. Which you probably already know.

Now, this is second-hand through Sirlin I guess, but he said the Japanese soft-banned him because he hated out "half" the characters. The players were so sure the game was 'better' without him that they simply chose the more diverse and dynamic game.


Now I'm the last guy to say this is how America should do it. I think I already have posted the an argument that it can't matter to this issue how things would be after the fact; but how they are now and whether they're acceptable. But, let me be clear I did only bring this up to say the Akuma discussion was pointless and could, at least, turn in this direction if people really need to talk about Street Fighter.


Ah, one other thing:

Also i agree with the poll having Not sure as being dumb, Because people who don't know are putting their opinions in when they shouldn't if you are unsure you should be reading and taking a side from that point not throwing fuel into a fire they shouldn't be at.

Its bad enough when people are blowing smoke out their backsides but sometimes you have people who aren't trying to be ***** but might not be as informed and swaying people with false or exaggerated comments

I'm "Not sure" (not voted on the poll though), but I don't think any of my posts here are ill-writ. (ill-wrought?)
It seems you only meant to indict those who come on and blow steam around or spread misinformation, and if so, okay; but that proviso is not in the first paragraph I quote here.

 

[Deathcarter]

If I understand your suggestion, then it would end up being like Lightweight, Super Featherweight, Flyweight, Medium Rare LightMediumHeavyweight and all that in boxing.

They're there, but people are only really going to care about the big one. It's just in our nature to think like that.

Plus, wouldn't tourneys take forever? I don't think any TOs would run a major scale, just Mid tier tourney.

I was talking about one tournament with EVERYONE involved and a side tournament with everyone except the top 8 characters ( or top 7 not including Diddy Kong as I don't recall if he cleans house with everyone lower than him). This way lower characters can compete in a balanced side metagame and develop against most of the cast and in general while not being made immediately unviable by 2/3/4 choices out of any of the top 8 characters. Meanwhile, you have the regular tournamets that are taken more seriously and are most likely dominated by top tiers.

Side question I want to ask you: Do you beleive that those 8 heavily imbalance the overall roster as those 8 debatably hold the majority of all 65:35 or higher disadvantaged matchups for every character lower on the list except possibly Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, especially considering this sharp change in matchups in relation to the gradual decrease in moveset capabilities as you move down the list?

 

[Messiano]

I'm "Not sure" (not voted on the poll though), but I don't think any of my posts here are ill-writ. (ill-wrought?)
It seems you only meant to indict those who come on and blow steam around or spread misinformation, and if so, okay; but that proviso is not in the first paragraph I quote here.

I did say "you have people" :D Didn't say everyone also did say it wasn't on purpose. :D

It just seems this is a bit crazy a few pages about MK then a off topic followed by a flame or 2 and then back to MK.

I honestly believe even if you take out how good he is (and hes amazing) you can still argue for a ban just biased on results, variety of the community, and meta-game improvements (or lack of). Like i said earlier

Honestly I think some of the smaller tourneys around Should try it Who cares, And you can do this for many reasons.

1) See what the results are (Do any unsung heroes get in the top 5
2) Get an idea of what the community thinks
3) Do more people show knowing this? Do less?
4) Then personal experiences changed? (People who were for the ban or against did they chance their minds)

Someone do it, ill even attempt to hold a small one myself here in brooklyn

Smashboards are not your parents guys you can try it i promise.

See what happens remember well

Record the results let everyone know what you and others felt it was like

No one wants this to happen because its uncharted territory and lets face it people do not like change :|

 

[pure_awesome]

Xyro is trying to organize people to hold MK-banned tourneys, and considering it's Xyro, I'm hoping some people will listen.

Despite currently being anti-ban, I think this is a great idea. It gives us that glimpse into an MK-less community that everyone wants without evolving our metagame away from him before we have a decision.

 

[XienZo]

If I understand your suggestion, then it would end up being like Lightweight, Super Featherweight, Flyweight, Medium Rare LightMediumHeavyweight and all that in boxing.

They're there, but people are only really going to care about the big one. It's just in our nature to think like that.

Pokemon works perfectly well like that, and all tiers are played because they offer different metagames. If you don't like camping, are you going for Falco vs Snake or Captain Falcon vs Ganondorf?

If anything, low tiers might become more popular since they're more about spacing and staying unpredictable, and there are no infinites or CGs, or at least not as much in scale as top tiers.

 

[Eyada]

Check the HDR section at shoryuken, it's probably buried pretty deep. HDRemix Akuma was banned because he still destroyed everyone with an option no Turbo character is supposed to have, a 100% safe jumpin, and Turbo players didn't want to deal with a massively dominating force being added to what was just supposed to be played as another version of Turbo. The guy trying to get him banned, a former (and present) Zangief player also manned up and proved his **** and beat some dominators like Justin Wong to argue a case to get him banned.

That seems to be the case.

I don't want to derail this thread with the Akuma topic, but it is eerie how similar the discussions at SRK and Sirlin.net are to the discussions we've had here. Reading through their arguments was just like reading through one of the old "Ban MK" polls, except with significantly more profanity and less 12 years old posting "I canz bbeet him wif my Cap Falcun, so he is obv not broke".

Apparently Sirlin approves of the EVO ban.

Some interesting parallels I found:
-Character is unanimously agreed upon as the best in the game.
-Character has advantage over most other characters, goes even with a few, and has only one possible disadvantaged match-up. (Some claim it to be a 40-60 disadvantage, many others claim it to be 50-50, and some maintain that it is, in fact, 60-40 or worse.)
-Character is not solely responsible for making any other character non-viable. Most seem to agree that his best match-ups are ~70-30? Any characters that he does maul were already screwed anyway.
-Possesses incredibly safe options for all situations.

One interesting difference, however, is that HDR Akuma has not dominated any major tournaments in the way that MK has. That is to say, Akuma has never swept the Top 8 (taking, say, 5 or more of the top 8 spots) of a large, national tournament. This is, apparently, because at whatever large tournaments have been held, the top Akuma players purposefully chose not to use him in the main tournament. I couldn't find any statements about why they did so, although the EVO decision was apparently partially based on this "fishy behavior". Speculation about their motives is pretty plentiful. Apparently Akuma is also banned from money matches at many HDR tournaments, but not the main tourney itself. More "fishy behavior".

Many people in their community are unhappy with the EVO decision, just like many people here are unhappy with this discussion.


Still, it's important to remember that none of that provides outright justification for a MK ban in and of itself. There are similarities, true, but MK is not Akuma, and Brawl is not HDR. Whatever is best for Brawl should be the guiding factor here; not what others have done. I only posted this because numerous people have sporadically referenced Street Fighter and Akuma all throughout this debate, so I thought this information would be interesting to some people here. If it isn't relevant, feel free to remove it. (Or ask me to do so.)

 

[pure_awesome]

Pokemon works perfectly well like that, and all tiers are played because they offer different metagames. If you don't like camping, are you going for Falco vs Snake or Captain Falcon vs Ganondorf?

If anything, low tiers might become more popular since they're more about spacing and staying unpredictable, and there are no infinites or CGs, or at least not as much in scale as top tiers.

That's pretty interesting. I had no idea that that's how competitive Pokemon was run.

I suppose I can only speak for myself, but I know that no matter who won the low tier tournament, in the back of my head I would always be thinking "Sure, but he'd get wrecked against such-and-such"



Anyway, I'm fairly surprised that Akuma was banned in HDR. I knew he was clear and away the best character, but I certainly didn't think he was going to end up ban-worthy. Of course, what do I know about HDR?

As much as I would like to be able to say that Street Fighter can do it's thing and we can do ours, the fact that a community with as long and proud a competitive tradition as Street Fighter has would ban a character for that is a pretty good reason for a second look. Though he's certainly worse than SF4 Sagat, his match-ups are eerily similar to MK's, along with the fact that stage counterpicking can give MK an even bigger advantage than is commonly listed. Quick repost:

This entire debate literally boils down to:

"Can we ban a character just because we feel like it?"

There's no solid reason to ban MK. At all. The community is growing every month and MK's presence isn't going to kill it for more than a handful of people that will be forgotten within a few months. Whether he has amazing tools, whether he's a god character, whether Shuttle Loop is overpowered or Whorenado is gay or Uair is too fast, he's not dominating tournaments to the extent that we need to ban him or the community will be dealt a massive blow. This may change in the future, but as of right now, this is what the situation is shaping up to be.

The majority of the community seems to recognize this, and seems to understand that while they want MK gone, it's not necessary.

Yes, it would suck for the people who don't want MK gone. Yes, it would suck for people like M2K who have put hours, days, weeks, into studying and learning their character. But unfortunately, the nature of our community dictates that we go with what the majority of relevant members of the community want. I practiced a ton with items when the game first game out, since I thought they would be legal. When they weren't, it was a huge blow and slowed me down alot. I lagged behind the rest of the community. But it's what the majority of the community wanted. I just spent an entire week last month working out the kinks to a Falco infinite on Corneria, only to find out that it's now banned. But the majority wants it banned. Majority rules. I'm sorry you think it's wasted time, but I can guarantee at least some of the things you learned from studying MK will carry over to whoever your new main ends up being. Hell, most of these guys already have **** secondaries. I've heard M2K's DDD is top 3 in the US.

So through this entire debate, we need only focus on two actual truths:

1. Metaknight is broken enough that the majority of the community wants him banned, simply because the competitive scene would be more interesting that way.
2. Metaknight is not broken enough that, at this point, it is necessary to ban him to ensure a healthy future for the competitive scene.

If we can all agree on those two points, and I think most of us can, then the only thing that we need to answer is:

"Can we ban a character just because we feel like it?"

I say no. Edreese says yes. Yet, we both want him to be banned.

Discuss.

I'm reposting this one last time simply because I feel it's true, greatly simplifies the matter, and hasn't been properly addressed. The fact that HDR is banning Akuma is either remarkable foresight on the matter or a good indication that a competitive community can ultimately do something just because it would be more fun to do it that way.

I'm going to be completely honest: This entire MK debate, the discussion of the soft ban on O.Sagat, and the new info that Akuma was banned from HDR is causing me to re-evaluate what my idea of a competitive community actually is and what it should be.

 

[XienZo]

That's pretty interesting. I had no idea that that's how competitive Pokemon was run.

I suppose I can only speak for myself, but I know that no matter who won the low tier tournament, in the back of my head I would always be thinking "Sure, but he'd get wrecked against such-and-such"

Yes, he'd be wrecked in a high tier environment. On the other hand, the high tier players would be wrecked in a low tier environment as well.


Also, note that you can use low tiers in a high tier environment as well, which is of use if a low tier counterpicks a high tier, and more importantly, you can abuse the lack of matchup experience since all the wonderful low-tier players like boss could be playing primarily in low-tier tourneys, allowing more viability of low tiers WITHIN the top tier environment.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I'll make one note.

If there's a significant change in who's winning at MK banned tourneys, I'd be ok with his ban. If not, then uh, way to ****ing go and change nothing lol.

 

[pure_awesome]

The only tournament results that I can remember off the top of my head for a tournament where no high tiers were allowed, M2K won using Ike.

[/tangent]

 

[Rocann]

I'll make one note.

If there's a significant change in who's winning at MK banned tourneys, I'd be ok with his ban. If not, then uh, way to ****ing go and change nothing lol.

This is a terribly ignorant post. We want the best players to be winning. If the best players are playing MK right now, then we want them to keep winning. The point of the ban is to promote competitive growth and diversity in tournament results, not to change the players that are placing in the tournaments.