Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[Woozle]

I think the main argument here is what we want the counterpick system to be about.

It's painfully obvious that DDD's amazing grab range, along with the fact that he can perform the infinite easily and everywhere, breaks the match-ups that they effect. Noone can truly main DK against a DDD main. The DK main is forced to play as a secondary for fear of an unwinnable match-up, despite the fact that DK is a great character who makes for a solid main outside of this match.

I think the issue may lie in the fact that the infinite makes them un-mainable. You cannot use the character in any double-blind pick for fear of D3. It's made especially likely since D3 is high tier.

I don't know if I completely agree, though.

 

[DRaGZ]

Uh, science?

As far as I know, Chemists hate Physicists.

Exactly, thus their fields are stagnated and nothing significant has come out of them in 50+ years.

Chaos theory, which is currently the most hotly debated field in science right now, came out of left field from, of all people, a meteorologist named Edward Lorenz, who posited theories that other scientists in his field and outside of his field scoffed at. But it was his alternate viewpoint that led to the understanding of chaos as something which can actually be understood rather than ignored.

This is becoming a significant enough movement that fields like bioengineering and cognitive science are being developed so that future scientists and engineers will have their hands dipped in multiple fields, giving multiple alternative viewpoints to come up with better solutions.

So yeah, alternative viewpoints from people not directly invested in a field are important.

 

[Ulevo]

Tires don exits? Don't kid yourself. Please take the best Captain Falcon player in the world in Brawl, pit him against M2K's MK, and tell me the matchup is feasible.

I like how you took the most drastic example possible. Almost no one beats M2K with any character, even Snake or Meta Knight. You can count the number of people that have placed higher in a tournament then he has on one hand I would assume. It simply doesn't happen. He three stocks everyone, and two stocks them if they are good players.

Do not involve player skill into this debate, because it is an unfactorable variable, and isn't relevant at all. Your logic sucks.

 

[bobson]

Tires don exits? Don't kid yourself. Please take the best Captain Falcon player in the world in Brawl, pit him against M2K's MK, and tell me the matchup is feasible.

He gave you five examples of lower tiers doing well in tournaments in the post you ****ing quoted, God****.

 

[Woozle]

Exactly, thus their fields are stagnated and nothing significant has come out of them in 50+ years.

I, uh, I don't think that's true.

._.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/tags/id/95

Also: The supercollider? That's a pretty big physics idea.

 

[Punishment Divine]

He gave you five examples of lower tiers doing well in tournaments in the post you ****ing quoted, God****.

lmao, owned.

 

[pure_awesome]

I think the issue may lie in the fact that the infinite makes them un-mainable. You cannot use the character in any double-blind pick for fear of D3. It's made especially likely since D3 is high tier.

I don't know if I completely agree, though.

Right, that's what I mean. Do we want that? The fact that DDD is a very possible opponent means noone in their right mind would pick DK. But that fact that nobody is going to pick DK makes DDD less attractive (only by a little), and therefore less likely. With DDD less likely, it's feasible to take a chance on DK if he's your best character. Then there's the fact that each player will now have to do research on the other.
If my opponent knows I'm a DK main, he's likely to take DDD, so I'll avoid DK. But if he sucks with DDD and I know he knows I'm a DK main, I might go with DK anyway, since I know he's going to think I'm expecting him to take DDD, so he won't. There's all these pre-match mindgames and counterpick mindgames and all these things that suddenly become a hugely important part of the game. It turns that part of the game into strategy.

The question is, do we want that to be part of the game?


EDIT: Thank you for actually responding to my post, by the way, rather than debating on whether or not there has been major advancements in chemistry in the last five years.

You're kind of drifting there, guys.

 

[Ulevo]

Oh, for the record. Snakeee, one of those players I mentioned, has managed to beat M2K with ZSS while M2K was using Meta Knight. I also believe he two stocked him. And you said five viable characters at most was pushing it huh?

Go play Brawl, come back, and then debate please.

 

[Fletch]

I like how you took the most drastic example possible. Almost no one beats M2K with any character, even Snake or Meta Knight. You can count the number of people that have placed higher in a tournament then he has on one hand I would assume. It simply doesn't happen. He three stocks everyone, and two stocks them if they are good players.

Do not involve player skill into this debate, because it is an unfactorable variable, and isn't relevant at all. Your logic sucks.

Lots of people can at least come close to beating him. Show me this with any low tier character.

He gave you five examples of lower tiers doing well in tournaments in the post you ****ing quoted, God****.

Fine

"Sure it's next to impossible" =/= feasible. Do you have no sense of logic?

And lower tiers are unviable? Laugh out loud? Just because they're low tiers and don't have easy learning curves or amazing statistical advantages doesn't mean they can't compete. Look at Boss, look at Sliq, look at Edreese, look at Snakeee, look at Bum. Only five viable characters? You have no clue about Smash at all.

You say player skill is completely irrelevant? Fine, then these players have just proven themselves to be that much better than their opponents that they can use these lower tier characters and win with them.

But honestly, I think the reason we're seeing this variability right now is just because the game is still somewhat new. Remember when Melee first came out? We saw characters like Link running tournaments, and the variability was astounding. Once things started to get figured out, however, you didn't really see those lower tier characters placing as high. You have your exceptions of course (Chu with ICs, Mango's Jiggs, Bum's DK, etc.), but for the most part, we only really saw the top 6 characters placing.

Again, if you want variability, why didn't we ban Sheik in Melee. Nearly all of her matchups were not feasible to win against, yet you didn't see the Melee community *****ing.

On a final note, everyone stop posting for a while and let me catch up.

 

[BentoBox]

Having the outcome of a match based upon the flip of a coin? No, not really.

 

[Anth0ny]

Lol, you've either been watching Arrested development lately or BrawlLover is your trolling account XD.

Nope, I'm just not sure why there's so much of a discussion surrounding this. This infinite is rediculous. Like Marth's infinite on Ness/Lucas (I think there's a way out of it now), it takes absolutely no skill at all to use. I mean, it's an automatic loss for the character who is a victim to the cg.

The tournaments I go to have banned this recently. But for the ones that are still out there...seriously, what are you waiting for. This is bs.

 

[Fletch]

I think the issue may lie in the fact that the infinite makes them un-mainable. You cannot use the character in any double-blind pick for fear of D3. It's made especially likely since D3 is high tier.

I don't know if I completely agree, though.

Extending off of this, then characters like Falcon are even more un-mainable. I cannot use the character in any double-blind pick for fear of facing pretty much the entire cast, not just one character.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

This is cheap. OK, not counting D3 he can CG 5 people right? There are 35 characters in Brawl correct (not counting ZSS, Sheik, etc.) So that is 1/7 of the roster! Imagine if there was an epidemic on the U.S. that killed off 1/7th of the population? Is that fair? NO! Ban this, it is totally unfair, like if you see your opponent using one of the characters, you can just CP D3 and win with that cheap infinite! It renders those characters helpless in the matchup. It makes it unwinable, is that fair? 1/7th of the roster have an impossible to win matchup? That warrants a ban there.

 

[Ulevo]

Nope, I'm just not sure why there's so much of a discussion surrounding this. This infinite is rediculous. Like Marth's infinite on Ness/Lucas (I think there's a way out of it now), it takes absolutely no skill at all to use. I mean, it's an automatic loss for the character who is a victim to the cg.

The tournaments I go to have banned this recently. But for the ones that are still out there...seriously, what are you waiting for. This is bs.

Shut up, no one likes you or cares about what you say or do. kthnxbai.

 

[DRaGZ]

I, uh, I don't think that's true.

._.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/tags/id/95

Also: The supercollider? That's a pretty big physics idea.

String theory is BS that is going nowhere. There's a few very vocal supporters of it, and even they are realizing that it's a failing theory because there is zero evidence for any of it.

The LHC is just taking an idea that was theoretical a long time ago and make it possible today. It doesn't add anything new to the field, it just helps us qualify a few things. We knew of particle acceleration for years (televisions, for instance), this just puts it in an environment that does it on an epic scale.

The only really exciting things left in physics is quantum mechanics, which by now is considered a separate field, and that came into view around what...the 1900's? And even now it's becoming stagnant because we don't have the technology, or perhaps the literal possible ability, of discovering anything new in it, just developing new theories.

Right now, all of the fields are either just going really big or really small, but it's all converging towards stuff they've already theorized decades ago. Nothing new. Part of it is because their mindsets are just too narrow.

 

[Fletch]

Nope, I'm just not sure why there's so much of a discussion surrounding this. This infinite is rediculous. Like Marth's infinite on Ness/Lucas (I think there's a way out of it now), it takes absolutely no skill at all to use. I mean, it's an automatic loss for the character who is a victim to the cg.

The tournaments I go to have banned this recently. But for the ones that are still out there...seriously, what are you waiting for. This is bs.

Ease of use is irrelevant. Judging by your signature, I see you play MK. There are a couple of matchups where you can pretty much bang the B button all day and win matchups (D3 actually comes to mind). I think that's pretty easy, but you don't see me asking for the tornado to be banned.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

How do you not? Well, sure, you don't have authority, but that doesn't mean this discussion doesn't pertain to you. It doesn't who you main or who you don't, it effects you either way.

That is like saying that only Meta Knight mains should participate in the discussion of his ban. That's silly talk. Meta Knight effects the whole cast. Whether or not you play him, or even play against him often, doesn't make this exclusive. It is a more extreme example, but it's true.

I don't play any character that can be infinite by King Dedede, but think of it this way. I main Marth, okay? Meta Knight is my worst match up flat out. Now, the more Meta Knights I have to deal with, the harder a tournament will be in order to win. Donkey Kong is a character that, potentially, can give Meta Knight a hard time. He is not a sure fire counter, but he certainly does better than Marth. Now, with the infinite in place, Donkey Kong is less likely to be played, and thus the chances of Meta Knights use increases. If the infinite is not in place however, Donkey Kong is no longer threatened by King Dedede, and Meta Knights may have to be forced to switch to another character, such as Snake.

The point I am trying to make here is that these infinite skew match ups in such a way that it drastically effects the match ups for the entire cast, because of how this one character makes five others unplayable. One way or another, drastic or minimal, it will effect you as long as you play.

I say the most important credentials who could be in this debate are the TO's themselves. They're the ones who have to deal with the issue at heart.

It's one thing to talk about banning MK, anyone who goes to Brawl tournaments has a stake. However, D3's infinity is something that only affects D3's metagama and the metagame of the characters it affects. I do not know enough about any of the characters involved to know if it is bannable or not. It is not like MK, where he is in 25-50% of all matches in some regions.

If you don't main D3 or a character that gets infinitied, you can't really have that much at stake. If anything, it prevents and delays the decision that best benefits those with those most vested interest in th issue at hand.

 

[Woozle]

Right, that's what I mean. Do we want that? The fact that DDD is a very possible opponent means noone in their right mind would pick DK. But that fact that nobody is going to pick DK makes DDD less attractive (only by a little), and therefore less likely. With DDD less likely, it's feasible to take a chance on DK if he's your best character. Then there's the fact that each player will now have to do research on the other.
If my opponent knows I'm a DK main, he's likely to take DDD, so I'll avoid DK. But if he sucks with DDD and I know he knows I'm a DK main, I might go with DK anyway, since I know he's going to think I'm expecting him to take DDD, so he won't. There's all these pre-match mindgames and counterpick mindgames and all these things that suddenly become a hugely important part of the game. It turns that part of the game into strategy.

The question is, do we want that to be part of the game?


EDIT: Thank you for actually responding to my post, by the way, rather than debating on whether or not there has been major advancements in chemistry in the last five years.

You're kind of drifting there, guys.

Yeah, uh... I dunno. It just didn't seem right to say so I felt like it needed correcting ^^;

In the case you're talking about, it seems like it would simply cycle.

Fewer DKs, Marios, Luigis ---> Fewer DDDs ---> More DKs, Marios, Luigis ---> More DDDs

And that's assuming fewer people would start with DDD if the other characters decreased, which I doubt with him having such a high place on the tier list.

 

[Ulevo]

Extending off of this, then characters like Falcon are even more un-mainable. I cannot use the character in any double-blind pick for fear of facing pretty much the entire cast, not just one character.

You're ignoring the fact that King Dedede makes these five characters not viable. Regardless of tier placement, character representation, tournament records, et cetera, Captain Falcon is still viable. He can compete, even if not very well. You can't compete against Dedede with these five characters. You can do one of three things. You can sit there and wait until you die and respawn, only to have it happen again. You can pause, which is the only command you can input. Or you can unplug your controller and forfeit.

I think Captain Falco can do a lot more **** than that to a Meta Knight, or anyone else for that matter.

 

[pure_awesome]

Ease of use is irrelevant.

Ease of use is very relevant. Fox had the drill -> waveshine -> drill infinite on some characters in Melee, but it wasn't banned specifically because it was so **** hard to do.

 

[Woozle]

Extending off of this, then characters like Falcon are even more un-mainable. I cannot use the character in any double-blind pick for fear of facing pretty much the entire cast, not just one character.

Unless you have an incredible falcon.

And incredible Mario will still have a 0 to death combo to worry about.

I think is the argument.

String theory is BS that is going nowhere. There's a few very vocal supporters of it, and even they are realizing that it's a failing theory because there is zero evidence for any of it.

The LHC is just taking an idea that was theoretical a long time ago and make it possible today. It doesn't add anything new to the field, it just helps us qualify a few things. We knew of particle acceleration for years (televisions, for instance), this just puts it in an environment that does it on an epic scale.

The only really exciting things left in physics is quantum mechanics, which by now is considered a separate field, and that came into view around what...the 1900's? And even now it's becoming stagnant because we don't have the technology, or perhaps the literal possible ability, of discovering anything new in it, just developing new theories.

Right now, all of the fields are either just going really big or really small, but it's all converging towards stuff they've already theorized decades ago. Nothing new. Part of it is because their mindsets are just too narrow.

Oh, okay. Uh- I disagree?

:] But your opinion is still viable.

 

[Woozle]

I was expecting the thread to move faster ._. Sorry.

 

[Anth0ny]

Shut up, no one likes you or cares about what you say or do. kthnxbai.

bwhahahaha you're just mad because I'm not writing "OMFG WALL OF TEXT" posts like you

 

[Ulevo]

bwhahahaha you're just mad because I'm not writing "OMFG WALL OF TEXT" posts like you

That hurt man. That cut deep.

No more Marth dittos for you.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

You're ignoring the fact that King Dedede makes these five characters not viable. Regardless of tier placement, character representation, tournament records, et cetera, Captain Falcon is still viable. He can compete, even if not very well. You can't compete against Dedede with these five characters. You can do one of three things. You can sit there and wait until you die and respawn, only to have it happen again. You can pause, which is the only command you can input. Or you can unplug your controller and forfeit.

I think Captain Falco can do a lot more **** than that to a Meta Knight, or anyone else for that matter.

Your wrong he can't do more than that if MK uses his infinite the IDC. both do the exact same thing they stop the match till MK and DDD have the advantage. Except DDD's actually gains it for him while it freezes the match.

 

[Anth0ny]

That hurt man. That cut deep.

No more Marth dittos for you.

haha I kid I kid. You know I love you

On Topic: BAN DIS ****!!

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

No more Marth dittos for you.

Eww, Marth dittos. I think for his punishment you should keep playing Marth dittos...

 

[Ulevo]

Your wrong he can't do more than that if MK uses his infinite the IDC. both do the exact same thing they stop the match till MK and DDD have the advantage. Except DDD's actually gains it for him while it freezes the match.

Um... uh. What are you trying to argue? IDC IS banned? Are you pulling my leg?

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're ignoring the fact that King Dedede makes these five characters not viable. Regardless of tier placement, character representation, tournament records, et cetera, Captain Falcon is still viable. He can compete, even if not very well. You can't compete against Dedede with these five characters. You can do one of three things. You can sit there and wait until you die and respawn, only to have it happen again. You can pause, which is the only command you can input. Or you can unplug your controller and forfeit.

I think Captain Falco can do a lot more **** than that to a Meta Knight, or anyone else for that matter.

You must be ****ing joking right?
you're saying that because of DDD those 5 characters are completely inviable?
That is just a terrible argument.
Those 5 characters are unviable within that specfic matchup.
1 terrible matchup does not mean a character becomes COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNVIABLE.
That is a logical fallacy which I am surprised you do not recognize.

 

[M15t3R E]

Any infinites should be banned. What on earth are the arguments supporting D3's infinites? I can't think of any good ones.

Infinites are completely unfair. I know I know "don't get grabbed"... but how fair is it that one slight mistake can cost you an entire stock due to the infinite? That's just absurd. Shouldn't be in the game. Ban it.

 

[Ulevo]

haha I kid I kid. You know I love you

On Topic: BAN DIS ****!!

Eww, Marth dittos. I think for his punishment you should keep playing Marth dittos...

Man, double Shield Breaker knock outs are epic. King Dedede dittos are eww.

 

[Woozle]

You must be ****ing joking right?
you're saying that because of DDD those 5 characters are completely inviable?
That is just a terrible argument.
Those 5 characters are unviable within that specfic matchup.
1 terrible matchup does not mean a character becomes COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNVIABLE.
That is a logical fallacy which I am surprised you do not recognize.

I believe it's just nonviable in that matchup.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Any infinites shoud be banned. What on earth are the arguments supporting D3's infinites? I can't think of any good ones.

Infinites are completely unfair. I know I know "don't get grabbed"... but how fair is it that one slight mistake can cost you an entire stock due to the infinite? That's just absurd. Shouldn't be in the game. Ban it.

wobbling was not banned.
Fox's infinite waveshine was not banned.
What about death combos? They do the exact same thing in the end.

I believe it's just nonviable in that matchup.

Ulevo is saying they become unviable completely.
As in Captain Falcon is more viable than them.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Um... uh. What are you trying to argue? IDC IS banned? Are you pulling my leg?

I was saying that they both do the exact same thing stop the match till DDD or MK have the advantage except that DDD's gains it for him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The IDC is banned is it not?

 

[Ulevo]

You must be ****ing joking right?
you're saying that because of DDD those 5 characters are completely inviable?
That is just a terrible argument.
Those 5 characters are unviable within that specfic matchup.
1 terrible matchup does not mean a character becomes COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNVIABLE.
That is a logical fallacy which I am surprised you do not recognize.

Uh... I was never arguing that it made them unviable outside the match up. You completely misunderstood my words.

Of course, I do not think it is right for these five characters to not be played simply because of the threat King Dedede poses, but that doesn't make them unviable by any means.

Yeesh, clarify first before exploding your counter argument. It's like you were waiting for me to **** up my argument.

 

[brinboy789]

The IDC is banned is it not?

yes

10char

 

[ShadowLink84]

Uh... I was never arguing that it made them unviable outside the match up. You completely misunderstood my words.

Of course, I do not think it is right for these five characters to not be played simply because of the thread King Dedede poses, but that doesn't make them unviable by any means.

Yeesh, clarify first before exploding your counter argument. It's like you were waiting for me to **** up my argument.

You're ignoring the fact that King Dedede makes these five characters not viable. Regardless of tier placement, character representation, tournament records, et cetera, Captain Falcon is still viable. He can compete, even if not very well. You can't compete against Dedede with these five characters. You can do one of three things. You can sit there and wait until you die and respawn, only to have it happen again. You can pause, which is the only command you can input. Or you can unplug your controller and forfeit.

Read your own argument and then complain.
First sentence declaresthe characters not viable.
You then mention Captain Falcon being viable in spite of representation and records.

This insinutes that those characters are not viable jus because of that matchup. The third part where you mention those characters being unviable against DDD clarifies but its rather odd and I felt like being nitpicky.


Again though, there are characters who go 9-1 against other characters in there are games due to one tactic or another yet that tactic is not banned.

 

[M15t3R E]

wobbling was not banned.
Fox's infinite waveshine was not banned.
What about death combos? They do the exact same thing in the end.

Wobbling was banned in a few tournaments, no major ones though. It should have been banned.
Fox's waveshine took skill, and so did all the 0 to death combos. So does the IC chaingrabs.
D3's infinites, on the other hand, are so simple they can be executed by a 6 year old.

 

[Woozle]

wobbling was not banned.
Fox's infinite waveshine was not banned.
What about death combos? They do the exact same thing in the end.

Maybe the majority of people who play brawl wanted them to be, so now the brawl community on a whole is trying to do what it can to prevent those kinds of tactics in their game?