Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
Might have forgotten about it though seems like his memory is a bit faulty.
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Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
It's more now, up to 7 or 8.
Fletch
Smash Master
In Brawl, there are about 5 viable characters at the top of the metagame, and I think that is even pushing it. If you're going to say these lower tier characters are "capable" and "feasible" to win with, then I say that it is both capable and feasible to win with these 5 characters as well. Sure it's next to impossible, but if you don't get grabbed, you can definitely win the matchup. It really isn't much different than playing the low tiers against the high tiers, it's just a really bad matchup, and every characters barring the tops have bad matchups.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Ooohh yeah. That quote. Mmm. Bento, have I told you I love you lately? Where's Sliq. We need to make sexy time. 
Fletch
Smash Master
**** I missed this. I play Fox in Melee, sure don't play him in Brawl at all, although to be fair, I quit Brawl.
If you have your mind set on a philosophy, you either take action or you don't. You don't half-*** it and then come and tell me that finishing the job is unnecessary.
REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF CHARACTERS IT AFFECTS. THAT IS I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T.
<33 Ulevo
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Why is it irrelevant?
You don't play dedede, any of the infinitables and you don't even play Brawl. Amaaaaaaaaaazing.
Woozle
Smash Journeyman
You quit brawl?
Then, with all do respect and dignity, your opinion of what should and shouldn't be banned in the game may be a little underdeveloped.
Since Brawl isn't Melee and all.
Maybe that's just me.
Calixto
Smash Apprentice
DDD's infinite only discourages the use of those 6 rather than encourage the use of DDD (as I've stated before around here somewhere).
Allowing the infinite does nothing but subtract from the metagame. Why do we leave it in?
Allowing the infinite does nothing but subtract from the metagame. Why do we leave it in?
Ulevo
Smash Master
Think before you post please.
"Sure it's next to impossible" =/= feasible. Do you have no sense of logic?
And lower tiers are unviable? Laugh out loud? Just because they're low tiers and don't have easy learning curves or amazing statistical advantages doesn't mean they can't compete. Look at Boss, look at Sliq, look at Edreese, look at Snakeee, look at Bum. Only five viable characters? You have no clue about Smash at all.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
I don't know why I didn't say this earlier but why is someone who doesn't play our game telling us how to play it who are you sakurai jr.?
...You just quoted the answer to your question?
And again, who are you to decide that such or such number of characters being rendered unviable is low enough as a threshold, thus warranting no further actions? Nobody can come up with an argument backing that based on logic alone. The only LOGIC route would be to follow through OR unban the banned stages.
Ulevo
Smash Master
This was a rather big problem in the Meta Knight debate. It is an unfortunate stigma of these boards that we are infested with.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Honest question:
Ness and Mario are pretty close right?
Does the infinite affect the tier list placement of Mario. I mean, because of this, will Mario drop below Ness? Or does the tier list not include the infinite?
(Im pretty sure the old tier list included Ness' *apparent* infinite by Marth. )
I would like this question to be answered please.
Ness and Mario are pretty close right?
Does the infinite affect the tier list placement of Mario. I mean, because of this, will Mario drop below Ness? Or does the tier list not include the infinite?
(Im pretty sure the old tier list included Ness' *apparent* infinite by Marth. )
I would like this question to be answered please.
Cause he could easily see our flaws in the our arguments, and coming from an unbiased point of view, will help us find the best action as soon as possible.
Well, in the best case scenario, but he has tons of potential to help us.
Woozle
Smash Journeyman
I feel as though rendering any character useless is cause for alarm.
But I may come from a different part of town.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Mario is an extremely underrated character that can only be hindered by the infinite. I'm not a mind reader, but I can predict he would rise above Ness if this was banned.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Because banning a level is easier to do and much more acceptable than banning something a character does. And if the easier thing is has a greater impact than the harder thing, then we'll just do the easy thing, and if the effect is good enough, we're chill.
And I'm not deciding anything. None of us are...right?
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Yeah, but people who don't play Brawl shouldn't make Brawl tourney rules. Why would you trust rulesets to people who don't play the game or have matchup experience.This was a rather big problem in the Meta Knight debate. It is an unfortunate stigma of these boards that we are infested with.
Technically, the only people that should be here are those that play D3 or a character that D3 infinities, no one else has anything at stake.
With that, I am leaving this discussion myself. I don't have any authority here.
Ulevo
Smash Master
That is a rather bad example, since Ness can be caught in an infinite too.
But to answer your question, I would be willing to assume the infinite does effect tier placement. And not just for the character being stuck by the infinite. It effects the entire list.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
maybe unbiased but its also unexperienced. Doesn't matter if hes really good in melee since this isn't melee.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
I see.
Let's pray that it's banned then. Not because I think Mario would beat Ness. Far from it, but I want Ness to beat Mario because he can without the infinite. Not with it!
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
People can't have opinions about things they are not involved in?
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
They can, but these opinions should not be valued much. In fact, these opinions should probably be ignored.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Can we ban DDD's tech chasing off of grabs? It bothers me X_X
Anth0ny
Smash Master
This has to be banned.
I mean, come on.
I mean, come on.
Woozle
Smash Journeyman
They can have all the opinions they want.
I would just rather not hear from a doctor what stocks I should buy.
>.>
CO18
Smash Hero
wtf just Press L quickly then down + b with zss. you cant be tech chased then
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
I think the main argument here is what we want the counterpick system to be about.
It's painfully obvious that DDD's amazing grab range, along with the fact that he can perform the infinite easily and everywhere, breaks the match-ups that they effect. Noone can truly main DK against a DDD main. The DK main is forced to play as a secondary for fear of an unwinnable match-up, despite the fact that DK is a great character who makes for a solid main outside of this match.
So what do we want the counterpick system to be about? Do we want it to be an intrinsic part of the game? Do we want the counterpick portion of the game to have just as much weight, take just as much strategy, as some in-game play? Do we want the match-ups to start on the character selection screen? If that's the case, then DDD's infinite shouldn't be banned. It emphasizes the counterpick system. A player who's afraid of an opponent's DK can choose DDD in an effort to force him to play a weaker character.
Or do we want the counterpick system to be more of a sidenote? An almost irrelevant part of the match that only the elite need to pay attention to? Do we want the outcome of the match decided, for the most part, after the words "Ready... Go!"? If this is the case, then DDD's infinite needs to be banned. It pushes the counterpick system onto us, which is the opposite of what we would want. Deciding the outcome of the match before the match begins is the opposite of what we're gunning for.
The counterpick system as it is takes brains. You need to know each character's strengths and weaknesses, ins and outs, who counters who, and how your opponent is likely to react. But does it matter? Should that, ultimately, be part of the way the game is played? This is the question we need to answer. Once we answer that, whether or not to ban DDD's infinite is easy.
It's painfully obvious that DDD's amazing grab range, along with the fact that he can perform the infinite easily and everywhere, breaks the match-ups that they effect. Noone can truly main DK against a DDD main. The DK main is forced to play as a secondary for fear of an unwinnable match-up, despite the fact that DK is a great character who makes for a solid main outside of this match.
So what do we want the counterpick system to be about? Do we want it to be an intrinsic part of the game? Do we want the counterpick portion of the game to have just as much weight, take just as much strategy, as some in-game play? Do we want the match-ups to start on the character selection screen? If that's the case, then DDD's infinite shouldn't be banned. It emphasizes the counterpick system. A player who's afraid of an opponent's DK can choose DDD in an effort to force him to play a weaker character.
Or do we want the counterpick system to be more of a sidenote? An almost irrelevant part of the match that only the elite need to pay attention to? Do we want the outcome of the match decided, for the most part, after the words "Ready... Go!"? If this is the case, then DDD's infinite needs to be banned. It pushes the counterpick system onto us, which is the opposite of what we would want. Deciding the outcome of the match before the match begins is the opposite of what we're gunning for.
The counterpick system as it is takes brains. You need to know each character's strengths and weaknesses, ins and outs, who counters who, and how your opponent is likely to react. But does it matter? Should that, ultimately, be part of the way the game is played? This is the question we need to answer. Once we answer that, whether or not to ban DDD's infinite is easy.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Then science would go nowhere. Wheeeeee.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Woozle
Smash Journeyman
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
I still remember that match with Atomsk, Snakeee XD You looked like you were gonna turn into the hulk and break the Wii lol
Scince would go nowhere if religious fanatics' opinions were as valued as scientists'. I fail to see your point.
The ease of the process, again, is irrelevant. Why would you even bring that up? You clearly have no argument as to why we shouldn't ban the technique. And for you to vote no because it would be a hassle is laughable. As you've said, we're not the ones enforcing anything, we are giving our opinions. You vote for what you feel is the right decision, not the easy way out.
>_>"
Oh, and good enough according to whose standards? Seriously.
Lol, you've either been watching Arrested development lately or BrawlLover is your trolling account XD.
Fletch
Smash Master
To be fair, I admit to no longer playing Brawl, but I played D3 while I played, along with a little bit of Falco. If the game didn't frustrate me to no end and if I couldn't still play Melee, I would still be playing Brawl.
Experience. Like I said, I played Brawl before, but I'm not going to sit here and lie and pretend like I still do. I feel I offer a good unbiased point of view now. That and I'm procrastinating from studying which is why I'm posting here now.You quit brawl?
Then, with all do respect and dignity, your opinion of what should and shouldn't be banned in the game may be a little underdeveloped.
Since Brawl isn't Melee and all.
Maybe that's just me.
Tires don exits? Don't kid yourself. Please take the best Captain Falcon player in the world in Brawl, pit him against M2K's MK, and tell me the matchup is feasible.
Ulevo
Smash Master
How do you not? Well, sure, you don't have authority, but that doesn't mean this discussion doesn't pertain to you. It doesn't who you main or who you don't, it effects you either way.
That is like saying that only Meta Knight mains should participate in the discussion of his ban. That's silly talk. Meta Knight effects the whole cast. Whether or not you play him, or even play against him often, doesn't make this exclusive. It is a more extreme example, but it's true.
I don't play any character that can be infinite by King Dedede, but think of it this way. I main Marth, okay? Meta Knight is my worst match up flat out. Now, the more Meta Knights I have to deal with, the harder a tournament will be in order to win. Donkey Kong is a character that, potentially, can give Meta Knight a hard time. He is not a sure fire counter, but he certainly does better than Marth. Now, with the infinite in place, Donkey Kong is less likely to be played, and thus the chances of Meta Knights use increases. If the infinite is not in place however, Donkey Kong is no longer threatened by King Dedede, and Meta Knights may have to be forced to switch to another character, such as Snake.
The point I am trying to make here is that these infinite skew match ups in such a way that it drastically effects the match ups for the entire cast, because of how this one character makes five others unplayable. One way or another, drastic or minimal, it will effect you as long as you play.
I say the most important credentials who could be in this debate are the TO's themselves. They're the ones who have to deal with the issue at heart.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
But the less Marth the more Ness' ^_^
Even with EIDI we'll get *****.
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