Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[Arturito_Burrito]

The IDC is banned is it not?

yes even though all it does is stall the match in hope that MK gains the advantage. While the DDD infinite stalls the match and gains DDD the advantage.


Not only that but its a lot easier to pull off.

 

[ShadowLink84]

yes even though all it does is stall the match in hope that MK gains the advantage. While the DDD infinite stalls the match and gains DDD the advantage.


Not only that but its a lot easier to pull off.

DDD's has the potential to stall and that is cut off by the 300%.
In short its a death combo.

Its a cruel death combo, but thats how things are.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if it hasnt been said already, im fairly sure that xyro bans all of D3s walking or standing CGs (infinites) in all of his houston tourneys.

the fact that its only on 6 characters should make it even more bannable since this one move is actually very easy to moderate.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

DDD's has the potential to stall and that is cut off by the 300%.
In short its a death combo.

Its a cruel death combo, but thats how things are.

that rule is optional though and I think getting from 0 to 300% takes longer than someones arm will last trying the IDC.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Maybe the majority of people who play brawl wanted them to be, so now the brawl community on a whole is trying to do what it can to prevent those kinds of tactics in their game?

We're talking about a D3 infinite that makes otherwise good characters completely unviable in a particular matchup.

Not universal ATs or things that bring skill and options into the game.

If anything, D3's infinite grab is the opposite of wavedashing. Wavedashing brought more options to melee, not less.

 

[ShadowLink84]

that rule is optional though and I think getting from 0 to 300% takes longer than someones arm will last trying the IDC.

You'd be surprised how long people are capable of doing the IDC.

Either way you're pretty much dead at high percentages.

 

[Ulevo]

Read your own argument and then complain.
First sentence declaresthe characters not viable.
You then mention Captain Falcon being viable in spite of representation and records.

This insinutes that those characters are not viable jus because of that matchup. The third part where you mention those characters being unviable against DDD clarifies but its rather odd and I felt like being nitpicky.


Again though, there are characters who go 9-1 against other characters in there are games due to one tactic or another yet that tactic is not banned.

When I said King Dedede makes these characters unviable, I meant within the match up. I should have clarified that, but you should have confirmed that as well before going super sayain.

I mentioned Captain Falcon being viable "despite [insert reasons here]" because he was arguing that his tier placement was making him unviable, while I was attempting to point out otherwise.

Interpret first, counter second.

Also, there is no 9-1 match up in this game that does not involve an infinite.

 

[Fletch]

You're ignoring the fact that King Dedede makes these five characters not viable. Regardless of tier placement, character representation, tournament records, et cetera, Captain Falcon is still viable. He can compete, even if not very well. You can't compete against Dedede with these five characters. You can do one of three things. You can sit there and wait until you die and respawn, only to have it happen again. You can pause, which is the only command you can input. Or you can unplug your controller and forfeit.

I think Captain Falco can do a lot more **** than that to a Meta Knight, or anyone else for that matter.

Agree to disagree then. At least with these 5, you only have one horrible matchup to worry about. I'd much prefer that than playing Falcon and worrying about the whole cast. I don't agree that he is viable whatsoever in this game. I still think if you're arguing for Falcon viability (which I don't agree with), you should group this in with this matchup being winnable for these 5 characters (just don't get grabbed, easier said than done). I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me though, so I'll let it be.

Ease of use is very relevant. Fox had the drill -> waveshine -> drill infinite on some characters in Melee, but it wasn't banned specifically because it was so **** hard to do.

You're talking about the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm saying things are all so easy in this game that it's pretty irrelevant when one thing is easier than another. And the waveshine drill infinite really isn't that difficult, and wasn't a true infinite I believe unless there was a wall. Plus your opponent could do lots of stuff to mess it up.

 

[Woozle]

We're talking about a D3 infinite that makes otherwise good characters completely unviable in a particular matchup.

Not universal ATs or things that bring skill and options into the game.

If anything, D3's infinite grab is the opposite of wavedashing. Wavedashing brought more options to melee, not less.

I, uh, meant the death combos. I assume they were inescapable.

If not, sorry.
._.

 

[aeghrur]

Wobbling was banned in a few tournaments, no major ones though. It should have been banned.
Fox's waveshine took skill, and so did all the 0 to death combos. So does the IC chaingrabs.
D3's infinites, on the other hand, are so simple they can be executed by a 6 year old.

If it's humanly possible, it doesn't matter how hard it was.
Don't give shoulds, that states opinion. It doesn't matter if it should or not, it WASN'T.

 

[CO18]

Agree to disagree then. At least with these 5, you only have one horrible matchup to worry about. I'd much prefer that than playing Falcon and worrying about the whole cast. I don't agree that he is viable whatsoever in this game. I still think if you're arguing for Falcon viability (which I don't agree with), you should group this in with this matchup being winnable for these 5 characters (just don't get grabbed, easier said than done). I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me though, so I'll let it be.



You're talking about the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm saying things are all so easy in this game that it's pretty irrelevant when one thing is easier than another. And the waveshine drill infinite really isn't that difficult, and wasn't a true infinite I believe unless there was a wall. Plus your opponent could do lots of stuff to mess it up.

Im pretty sure Saber JUST won a tourney with Captain Falcon in NJ just saturday.

 

[pure_awesome]

I don't see how anyone could be arguing that it shouldn't be banned because it's just a death combo or anything. I understand how that would fly in Melee, but death combos are ridiculously overpowered in Brawl.

But that's irrelevant. the point is, what does the community gain, match-wise, by keeping the infinite around? It's not like we'll ever see it, it just prevents those matches from happening. No pro DK is ever going to be stupid enough to pick DK against a pro DDD. All we'd be doing by keeping it around is ensuring those match-ups never happen again. Or at least, very rarely.

 

[Gates]

We're just talking about banning the standing infinite and not the short step chaingrabs or the near-infinites, right? I'd be okay with that, or at least change the definition of when it's considered stalling (like one based on time instead of percentage). I'm against going any further with it though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

When I said King Dedede makes these characters unviable, I meant within the match up. I should have clarified that, but you should have confirmed that as well before going super saiyan.

Mystic super saiyan, get it straight you!

I mentioned Captain Falcon being viable "despite [insert reasons here]" because he was arguing that his tier placement was making him unviable, while I was attempting to point out otherwise.

Interpret first, counter second.

Due to the structure of your argument I could not help but think they were linked.
o I cannot be blamed for my interpretation if there was an error in what you stated.

Also, there is no 9-1 match up in this game that does not involve an infinite.

I was talking about other games. I accidentally put there instead of other some how.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i actually really like the arguement that D3s infinite is more broken than the IDC.

its actually very true, and if you ban the IDC than the infinite should be banned because its actually worse for competition and gameplay than the IDC was. ive played friendlys where i IDCd to get postioning, and turned it into a useful but not broken move, you cant do that with the infinite

 

[Fletch]

Im pretty sure Saber JUST won a tourney with Captain Falcon in NJ just saturday.

Link to the results? And who exactly did he play against? Anyone of note?

 

[BentoBox]

cutter never replied :< who shall my next victim be >:O

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I, uh, meant the death combos. I assume they were inescapable.

If not, sorry.
._.

I actually don't know. I've been told that there are very few of those in melee, if you have good DI. But I never played melee at a high enough level to know.

What's with all the Sonic mainers here?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

You'd be surprised how long people are capable of doing the IDC.

Either way you're pretty much dead at high percentages.

I suppose I would show me a video where it lasts more than 3 300% chain grabs.

 

[aeghrur]

i actually really like the arguement that D3s infinite is more broken than the IDC.

its actually very true, and if you ban the IDC than the infinite should be banned because its actually worse for competition and gameplay than the IDC was. ive played friendlys where i IDCd to get postioning, and turned it into a useful but not broken move, you cant do that with the infinite

IDC works on whole cast, completely one player based as well.
All it takes is one person to do it, the opponent can neither stop you nor prevent you from doing it, considering you both start on ground.

DDD infinite doesn't work that way. It's only on 5 characters, you must get a grab in, and for some, you also have to hit in between giving more room to escape. =/ It's not COMPLETELY one-sided as you can
A. Escape during pummeling
B. Super Grab Break
C. Stay near a ledge.
D. Counterpick places with lots of ledges like Norfair
E. Space well so you don't get grabbed.

 

[M15t3R E]

If it's humanly possible, it doesn't matter how hard it was.
Don't give shoulds, that states opinion. It doesn't matter if it should or not, it WASN'T.

I inherently disagree with you on that. I believe if it takes incredible skill it doesn't need to be banned.
Maybe wobbling wasn't banned but you do not know if most Melee players wanted it banned. I would imagine most did, as most who played and watched Wobbles the Phoenix seemed to hate his guts and call it a gay playstyle.

 

[adumbrodeus]

wtf, overcentralized?
Those characters lose complete playability from the matchup, and ultimately lose the characters as viable characters due to a dumb technicality. Warranted because of what I just said.
He can still CG them the normal accepted way.

It's not stalling Ulevo. x_X. Taking an extra 20-30 seconds to make sure the throw to kill isn't a stall. ... Though that's not what you're implying at all.. I'm wrong. ^^

MK does that to plenty of characters.

Sure it might be a somewhat worse match-up but being hard countered by the most popular character in the game is death to the competitive scene.

Oh? And exactly how do you go about doing that?

The whole point of the infinite being used is to perform a one hit kill once the percentage is high enough. So it is reasonable to assume that using the infinite past that percentage line is in fact stalling. But how do you know what that percentage line is? Do you go by a specific percentage for each stage, since certain stages are larger? Do you go by character, since certain characters are harder to kill then others? Does this take DI into consideration? Or do we just automatically assume a percentage that no character under any circumstances should be able to live once thrown?

If the latter be the case, then you come back to me with that specific ceiling. Because I'm willing to bet that it will be a rather high number. The higher the percent ceiling is, the closer it is to stalling. The fact is you can't define a ceiling appropriately without calling it stalling.

Fact is, it is stalling.

Or just use a blanket number, find out what percentage it takes to kill the character that is the most difficult to kill with either a throw or a true combo from the throw, on the stage that is the most difficult to kill, in the worst possible position. We then define that as the upper limit for the infinite before it becomes stalling.

Simple, you can't use the downthrow past that percent.

I haven't down the research so I don't know what the percent is, but there are plenty of people who test kill percents.


It's that simple, define our ceiling based on actual kill percents.

 

[CO18]

Link to the results? And who exactly did he play against? Anyone of note?

LMFAOOO Nevermind. Just now Teh Spammer posted he entered under the name "Saber" who is a captain Falcon main apparently to mindgame people to think a C.Falcon won but it was really just Teh spammer using Metaknight.

Either way Reflex has INdeed won a tourney using Captain Falcon which included 3-0ing Georgia's considered best player in Losers finals who is a Dedede and MK main and 3-2ing Georgia's considered 2nd best player Kismet who is a Falco main in Grand finals.

There are vids of it too.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I suppose I would show me a video where it lasts more than 3 300% chain grabs.

Don't you mean 7 minute time limit?
Anyways I don't have one showing it exactly (most people get bored)
I'll show you something similar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5GpRJItqjw

Or if that doesn't work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y03t___STz0

both of which require alot more sill than hitting two buttons repeatedly.

Or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxIEOgiBp7M&feature=related

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

IDC works on whole cast, completely one player based as well.
All it takes is one person to do it, the opponent can neither stop you nor prevent you from doing it, considering you both start on ground.

DDD infinite doesn't work that way. It's only on 5 characters, you must get a grab in, and for some, you also have to hit in between giving more room to escape. =/ It's not COMPLETELY one-sided as you can
A. Escape during pummeling
B. Super Grab Break
C. Stay near a ledge.
D. Counterpick places with lots of ledges like Norfair
E. Space well so you don't get grabbed.

If the problem is that it works on the whole cast then we should allow it on lower tier characters only hows that sound? Let MK IDC against DK and 4 other characters that won't matter at all will it?

 

[aeghrur]

I inherently disagree with you on that. I believe if it takes incredible skill it doesn't need to be banned.
Maybe wobbling wasn't banned but you do not know if most Melee players wanted it banned. I would imagine most did, as most who played and watched Wobbles the Phoenix seemed to hate his guts.

No, if it takes incredible skill it should be banned. However, if it takes both incredible skill and is quite->extremely situational, then it should not.
Wobbling point is, it doesn't matter if it should or not, or if a lot of people agreed to the ban, it wasn't banned. Look at the MK thing. A lot of people wanted it banned, it wasn't. MK is still here.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Don't you mean 7 minute time limit?
Anyways I don't have one showing it exactly (most people get bored)
I'll show you something similar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5GpRJItqjw

sorry but with out proof it didn't happen then. I don't want something similar I want what I asked for.

 

[da K.I.D.]

IDC works on whole cast, completely one player based as well.
All it takes is one person to do it, the opponent can neither stop you nor prevent you from doing it, considering you both start on ground.

DDD infinite doesn't work that way. It's only on 5 characters, you must get a grab in, and for some, you also have to hit in between giving more room to escape. =/ It's not COMPLETELY one-sided as you can
A. Escape during pummeling
B. Super Grab Break
C. Stay near a ledge.
D. Counterpick places with lots of ledges like Norfair
E. Space well so you don't get grabbed.

A. he can regular chaingrab you until you are over 25% at which point you cant escape after 1 pummel.
B. see A
C. he hits you with a waddle, and than planks... he wins since you cant risk getting close.
D. he infinites you on a neutral, you win on norfair, he CPs FD, you are fscked.
E. and wolf can win without getting hit by shining every attack.

I inherently disagree with you on that. I believe if it takes incredible skill it doesn't need to be banned.
Maybe wobbling wasn't banned but you do not know if most Melee players wanted it banned. I would imagine most did, as most who played and watched Wobbles the Phoenix seemed to hate his guts and call it a gay playstyle.

I feel the exact same way

 

[aeghrur]

If the problem is that it works on the whole cast then we should allow it on lower tier characters only hows that sound? Let MK IDC against DK and 4 other characters that won't matter at all will it?

Your missing part B of your rebuttal.

 

[Ulevo]

Agree to disagree then. At least with these 5, you only have one horrible matchup to worry about. I'd much prefer that than playing Falcon and worrying about the whole cast. I don't agree that he is viable whatsoever in this game. I still think if you're arguing for Falcon viability (which I don't agree with), you should group this in with this matchup being winnable for these 5 characters (just don't get grabbed, easier said than done). I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me though, so I'll let it be.



You're talking about the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm saying things are all so easy in this game that it's pretty irrelevant when one thing is easier than another. And the waveshine drill infinite really isn't that difficult, and wasn't a true infinite I believe unless there was a wall. Plus your opponent could do lots of stuff to mess it up.

Fair enough.


Also, for anyone who cares, I just did a test.

I put Donkey Kong on Shadow Moses Island, and did a wall infinite on him with Dedede from 0% to 300%. Since that is likely the most reasonable blanket number at this time, as it is defined by the Smash Back Room and it is used in Sudden Death mode, I used that as the ceiling number.

It took approximately one minute and fifteen seconds to get Donkey Kong to 300%.

Please keep in mind three things:

- Standing infinite is slower than a wall infinite by a lot, as you can spam the throw and regrab much faster on a wall; there is no strict timing.

- 3/5 characters need to be pummeled in between throws, which in turn takes even more time.

- Not everyone who pulls off an infinite is going to be going as speedy as I was. They could take their time if they feel the need to do so.

A large reason of why Luigis Mansion is banned is because Plank stalled the match by running away from a R.O.B. main for the last 30 seconds of a match. And people are claiming that using an infinite to 300% for over a minute isn't stalling? That's not even taking into consideration the other factos I mentioned, plus the standing infinite is even slower than this.

 

[ShadowLink84]

sorry but with out proof it didn't happen then. I don't want something similar I want what I asked for.

If I did not see it it did not happen.
Therefore if I did not witness Sonic beating an MK it must not have happened.
Like I said, you're demanding proof that people can hit two sticks for 7 minutes.

Instead, I provided a video of GH3 which requires much more technical skill and is alot more demanding.
Its very valid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI7NHNArV7s&feature=related

Watch this one for amazement.

Edit: wrong video ha

 

[cutter]

cutter never replied :< who shall my next victim be >:O

What do you want me to reply to? I just got done with dinner and it's hard keeping up with this thread since it's moving so frickin' fast.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If I did not see it it did not happen.
Therefore if I did not witness Sonic beating an MK it must not have happened.
Like I said, you're demanding proof that people can hit two sticks for 7 minutes.

Instead, I provided a video of GH3 which requires much more technical skill and is alot more demanding.
Its very valid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxIEOgiBp7M&feature=related

Watch this one for amazement.

Well if you didn't see that then guess it didn't happen I'm glad we agree.

edit: Tell what happens if the DDD refuses to approach DK for the kill? will the DDD run into his death or just kill him self? The infinite does stall the match and it does it even worse than the IDC because it widens the gap between the two players as its happening.

 

[M15t3R E]

No, if it takes incredible skill it should be banned. However, if it takes both incredible skill and is quite->extremely situational, then it should not.
Wobbling point is, it doesn't matter if it should or not, or if a lot of people agreed to the ban, it wasn't banned. Look at the MK thing. A lot of people wanted it banned, it wasn't. MK is still here.

That means you believe the IC chaingrabs need to be banned. I do not. That is a difference we will not get past.

And apparently you do not care much about the will of the community. If a good majority of the community believes something should be banned, it doesn't matter? Wow... that is a shallow remark from you.
As for MK, the majority wanted him banned but the SBR voted; they just threw away the votes of the general brawl community. They showed that they don't really care about us, and so they made the wrong decision.

 

[HeroMystic]

A. he can regular chaingrab you until you are over 25% at which point you cant escape after 1 pummel.

It's actually around 50% if you buffer the pummel (which is incredibly easy).

And lol @ Super Grab Break.

 

[pure_awesome]

Two things for those who care:

Super Grab Break is yet to be proven to exist.

Fox's Drillshine Infinite was a true infinite on a few characters (Think four or five), principal among which are Peach and Sheik.

 

[Fletch]

I inherently disagree with you on that. I believe if it takes incredible skill it doesn't need to be banned.
Maybe wobbling wasn't banned but you do not know if most Melee players wanted it banned. I would imagine most did, as most who played and watched Wobbles the Phoenix seemed to hate his guts and call it a gay playstyle.

Most wanted it banned at first, but the majority of the community did not want it banned after it was out for a while.

LMFAOOO Nevermind. Just now Teh Spammer posted he entered under the name "Saber" who is a captain Falcon main apparently to mindgame people to think a C.Falcon won but it was really just Teh spammer using Metaknight.

Either way Reflex has INdeed won a tourney using Captain Falcon which included 3-0ing Georgia's considered best player in Losers finals who is a Dedede and MK main and 3-2ing Georgia's considered 2nd best player Kismet who is a Falco main in Grand finals.

There are vids of it too.

It's just one match anyways, doesn't prove anything. I'm sure I can find some matches of the 5 in consideration beating good D3's as well.

 

[Inui]

It's already banned in everything I host and has been for a long time. NY bans it, and I think PA and MD/VA do as well. It's really dumb and too easy to do and negates characters that shouldn't be negated.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well if you didn't see that then guess it didn't happen I'm glad we agree.

Your attempt at wit is poor.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The majority of posters currently in this thread neither main D3, nor main a character that gets infinitied by D3.