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Should Ganondorf Change?

Radical Larry

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This isn't clickbait as you might think, because I do have legitimate arguments for what I'm about to say. Now Ganondorf in PM, for the most part, is still a semi-clone of Captain Falcon, just much slower and more powerful. However, I think that (skipping 3.6 since it's coming soon) in 4.0 or any updates following after, the following changes could be implemented into him. Please mind that these are of my own opinions and do not reflect everyone else's. This is meant to spark discussion on anything that Ganondorf should have in order for him to either better as a character, or give him uniqueness. With all that said, let's head on to my opinions.

Attributes and Aesthetics (walking, running, jumping, falling speed, gravity and lateral air movement):

In terms of walking, his animation should change from his current walk into his walk from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, where he walks more menacingly. This would make him less clunky with walking and would breathe good air into him. With the speed, it should be only a bit slower, as I'll get to that with running/dashing speed.

His running however, should have a new speed. Since Ganondorf is heavily influenced by his Twilight Princess counterpart, and the fact that his alternate costume has "less heavy armor" on, it should be reasonable to ask his speed be around 1.62, which is as fast as Donkey Kong's speed. Now why would I ask for such a fast Ganondorf on the ground? Well, reason being is that Ganondorf (not Ganon) is a fast character in the games he appeared in, especially Twilight Princess, where he actually runs faster than Link does.

In terms of his jumping height, if the Devs want to go from the games once again, Ganondorf has a monstrous jumping height in not only Twilight Princess, but also Wind Waker and, as Demise, in Skyward Sword. In this vein, he should actually be able to jump somewhat significantly higher than ever, at least being able to reach the edge of the stage with a better recovery.

With falling speed, it should be somewhat increased to be faster, since should Ganondorf get a jumping height buff, he should have a falling speed nerf to compensate for it.

Gravity on the other hand, should be 1.2439, so that it can also compensate for any jumping height buff.

Air Speed should be increased somewhat, from 0.846 to 0.974. The reason for this is to give Ganondorf a better recovery, something in which he lacks even to Project M standards. This can also allow him to link up any aerial combo he likely couldn't do before and would balance him out to the rest of the cast.

Normals (Jab, F-Tilt, Dash, D-Tilt, U-Tilt):

With Jab, I believe it should have a wider reach despite its speed, and should deal a total of 10% in this reach if hit with the sweetspot. However, as compensation for the range and damage buff, I believe that the stale move negation should bring the attack down in terms of its attack power pretty quickly.

With F-Tilt, it should remain with the same animation, but have at least 2 frames more speed coming out for the attack, and deal at least a tiny bit less knockback on it, while retaining its damage.

With Dash, Ganondorf should have Light Armor on him, so that weak attacks may not flinch him, but harder attacks, such as tilts, can still hit him clean off if they make good contact. With this, it should deal 1% less damage all around for the Light Armor.

With D-Tilt, no change is really necessary for it. No new animation nor any attribute changes needed for it, really.

With U-Tilt, though, this is where it will get complex. I believe that U-Tilt should have the ability to meteor smash on the very foot of the attack, but not just that, it is able to actually meteor an opponent even if they have invincibility frames on the edge of the stage. But to compensate for the meteor on the foot, it should switch its hitboxes around, with it dealing 22% damage on the body and leg, but 18% (4% less) on the foot.

Smash Attacks:

With Forward Smash, I believe it should be a hard-powered kick akin to Captain Falcon's SSB F-Smash. Giving Ganondorf long range with newer hitboxes as well, with the following occurring: 24% (c.32% foot), 18% (c.26% leg), 14% (c.20% body). This would give Ganondorf a well-deserved new F-Smash and would make him a more powerful foe to go up against, but to compensate, start up lag should be increased by 2 frames at the least.

Down Smash is like D-Tilt, no change is necessary for it.

But with Up Smash, it is a whole other story. Despite it being the deadliest U-Smash in the game, it is nowhere near a true deadly nature. I believe that it should at least deal 4% more damage overall, which would make it as damaging as Marth's Critical Hit attack at 60% damage fully charged; but this extra 4% damage should only be dealt at the foot of the final attack, otherwise, it will deal its normal 56% fully charged. To also compensate, the non-foot hitboxes have less KBG and KB altogether, but only slightly less, but the foot has a bit more KBG and KB than the non-foot hitboxes.

Aerials:

Neutral Aerial should, instead of being two kicks, be one powerful kick that is capable of semi-spiking. In compensation, it deals 4% less total damage (at 18% damage) and have a bit less KBG than the clean hit of the current N-Air on its first hit.

However, there is a secondary idea for Neutral Aerial, and that it still retains its two kicks, but Ganondorf performs a front flip attack with both kicks, and at the front-most area of the second kick, it's a weak semi-spike. This variation is actually faster and should deal only 20% damage total as compensation.

Forward Aerial is going to be untouched, as it is not a necessary thing to change.

Back Aerial should be changed from a backhand to a backwards kick in the vein of Falco's attack. Retain its speed and power, as the kick will still have the same damage overall, but give it more range and electric properties if the foot connects.

Up Aerial is going to be untouched as well, as it is not a necessary thing to change either.

Down Aerial should have 24% damage to it, but wait, it should have, since Ganondorf could possibly have an aerial mobility change, more landing and start up lag to it, by at least 3 frames and 4 frames respectively. However, autocancel can still be applied to the attack, thus allowing it not to have as much landing lag to it, and it can retain its short hop autocancel.

Specials and Throws:

Since Neutral Special is now the Dead Man's Volley & Drift/Dark Descent, Ganondorf should be able to not only reflect projectiles, but send the projectiles back with 3 times (instead of 2 times) the speed with 1.3x power. But let's give it 2 frames more end lag however. As for the Dark Descent counterpart, allow Ganondorf to float at least 180 frames (3 seconds) longer, but if he attacks out of it or time runs out, he goes into a helpless state.

I will also add the new Warlock Arc Slam (down taunt) into the Neutral Special category. Since it is going to have light armor now, it should deal significantly more knockback or damage to compensate for it, or even have shield breaking or the ability to phase through shields as a whole and hit the opponent.

In the vein of Warlock Punch, I believe that if you use the down taunt attack in the air, it should be able to be used, and the attack should be able to be reversed, with the latter dealing 1.5 times damage on the ground, but 2 times damage in the air (meaning it would deal from 37% to 74% damage at the tip, reversed, in the air). As absurd as it might sound, the reversed version of the attack should have significantly more start up lag and no armor, and by more start up lag, I mean it should come out after at least 4 seconds.

With Side Special, I'm only going to do the aerial. I believe that the aerial version should have a very, very unique property to it in that it should, depending on what happens:

Landing to the Ground - It should be able to create a small shockwave upon impact to the ground, dealing between 12% to 4% damage (depending on the opponent's position) on the opponent. The range is relative to 1/2 of Final Destination's full length if done from one side to the other, but the entire stage of Final Destination if done from the middle. At ranges near the middle of the stage (if at the edge), no knockback occurs and it's just a trip. The closer you are, however, the more the knockback will come.

Slamming the opponent to the Ground - This should act like Flame Wave from Smash Bros. 4, in which the opponent should be sent flying upward instead of just being slammed to the ground. This would deal at least 13% damage to the opponent if they are grabbed and slammed.

Shooting Meteor - If Ganondorf does miss the initial grab, Ganondorf should have the capability to, if the player holds the Special Button long enough, meteor his opponent with 10% damage and have a significantly improved recovery. The only downside to it, is that it cannot be stopped unless Ganondorf lands.

Up Special doesn't need a change, as Ganondorf could potentially have a better recovery.

Down Special doesn't need a change either, as Ganondorf could potentially have a better recovery, nor does it need a change on the ground.

Ganondorf actually doesn't need a change on his throws either, as they are already perfectly balanced in every way and don't necessarily need a change.

Secondary Variation?

Now I respect the PM Development Team's hard efforts, but seeing as they did Samus with a secondary variation made me start to think that Ganondorf could potentially have a sword variation to him. If he performs the Down Taunt without the attack, then he should be able to carry the sword around with him and perform unique tilts, smashes and specials compared to his other variation. This also gives reasonable grounds for Ganondorf to be faster overall, as he will be weaker with the sword variation. Things that won't change are his Wizard's Foot, Aerial, Dash and Jab attacks.

Sword Tilts:

Forward Tilt: A sword swing that is all horizontal and doesn't go into an arc, akin to Ike's Forward Tilt. The damage output is 10% near the base and 12% near the tip with moderate knockback. The attack is 3 frames faster than his normal F-Tilt.

Down Tilt: A spinning kick followed by a low sword sweep. The kick deals set knockback with 6% damage, while the sword attack deals 6% near the base and 8% near the tip, leading to 14% overall with the tilt dealing weak Sakurai angle knockback. The attack is 4 frames faster than his normal D-Tilt.

Up Tilt: A slow full arc swing that starts from one side of Ganondorf to the other. The attack deals 16% damage near the base and 20% damage near the tip, and is able to almost break shields. The attack is 10 frames faster than his normal U-Tilt.

Sword Smashes:

Forward Smash: A leaping elbow attack followed by a full swing attack, similar to what was seen in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. The elbow attack deals 8% damage with set knockback, followed by the sword swing, which deals 12% damage on the base, but 16% damage on the tip. The fully charged verson deals 12% damage with the elbow, 16% damage base and 20% on tip with the sword swing dealing high horizontal knockback. The attack is 7 frames faster than his normal Forward Smash.

Down Smash: A double low spin attack. The initial hit is the most powerful version, and the specs are 16%/18% (front initial, base/tip), 14%/16% (back initial, base/tip), 8%/10% (front second hit, base/tip), 6%/10% (back second hit, base/tip). The knockback is high/medium-high/medium and low respectively at a vertical knockback. The attack is 4 frames faster than his normal Down Smash.

Up Smash: An upwards kick akin to his Brawl kick. It deals the same damage all around, and deals 20% damage with high knockback. The attack is 7 frames faster than his normal Up Smash.

Sword Specials:

Death Sword: Ganondorf's Neutral Special, which is a charge type attack that allows him to possess an arc swing in front of him. Ganondorf charges for at least twice as long as his normal Smash Attacks, and the initial charge/no charge version of the attack deals 25% damage and high knockback, albeit is slow. However, as the name implies, when the attack is fully charged, it becomes an instant KO, dealing a whopping 100% damage to the opponent and deals extreme pure vertical knockback, ignoring shields; the downside is, is that Ganondorf will be dealt 50% damage if it's fully charged as well, and leaves him in extremely high end lag.

Ball of Shadow: Ganondorf's Side Special, which is his projectile attack from his Dead Man's Volley from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The attack deals 10% damage and goes about 3/4 the range of Final Destination. It is slow and has little knockback to it.

Wizard's Foot: Ganondorf's Down Special, which is unchanged overall.

Degeneration: Ganondorf's Up Special, which is great for his recovery methods, as it goes rather high. The initial start up of the attack has him swinging his sword downward, which could allow for a medium-knockback meteor (capable of KO'ing at 70%), until he raises his sword and swings twice in the air. The initial hit deals 12% damage, while the first swing deals 6% and the second deals 10% damage, with the second swing dealing moderate horizontal knockback.

Doom - Sword Variation Final Smash:

Doom is the sort of Final Smash that can put a breath of fresh air into Ganondorf's arsenal, as it can give him a second Final Smash. Doom, as some may be familiar with, is not a thing within The Legend of Zelda series outside of Sharp's attack in Majora's Mask. Rather, this attack stems from the Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts and Bravely Default series' where your opponent has a countdown to their instant death.

In this case, Ganondorf's Doom deals no damage to the opponent initially, but the opponent will instantly die within 10 seconds, no matter their damage; this even lingers on even if they are already KO'd, so they could potentially lose another stock in the process. Now this attack, once it reaches 0, will act like one of the crushing hazards in the Subspace Emissary, wherein the character will instantly and abruptly KO.

For the Final Smash to wear off, however, the opponent must KO Ganondorf and the Final Smash will instead deal 50% damage to the opponent instead of instant death.

Conclusion:

Now despite what I've said, this is just my opinion on how Ganondorf COULD be unique and better overall as a character in future updates of Project M. I do acknowledge that the Project M team is working extremely hard to provide a very enriching mod and I do respect that. However, this is my own personal opinion and take on what they could do, NOT what they should do. This is also meant to spark discussion on what Ganondorf could be like within Project M future installments, and honestly, he has potential to be the greatest-changed character of all time.

The Project M development team has a lot of neat stuff they're already doing, and I cannot wait to see what else they have in store for the mod, but again, these are my thoughts, what are yours? Please tell me in the replies below on what you think Ganondorf could turn out like or what Ganondorf could be, or even a criticism to my own statements.

This thread was made all for discussion and a little bit of potentiality. None of this will make it into the mod unless (by some chance) the Dev team does accept some of these ideas.
 

Jiggly

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I honestly hope ganondorf stays a semi clone, because I love his moveset how it is. Cape was a welcome change, and did wonders for the character. Although, with the change of the cape, I feel like PMDT may overhaul him, but little by little. I feel he will keep his attack moves, but the specials may be changed all around, which may be a good thing for his character. I hope it doesnt happen, but it looks like it might be on the way.
 

Radical Larry

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I honestly hope ganondorf stays a semi clone, because I love his moveset how it is. Cape was a welcome change, and did wonders for the character. Although, with the change of the cape, I feel like PMDT may overhaul him, but little by little. I feel he will keep his attack moves, but the specials may be changed all around, which may be a good thing for his character. I hope it doesnt happen, but it looks like it might be on the way.
But if they were to change his character, they should go all out on him on most attacks. His Dead Man's Volley is a good move, but only if it could have been implemented into his Side Special. Removing Warlock Punch was not necessary and what we have now, a Light Armor Down Taunt Attack, is just pitiful in comparison because it's really weak compared to his Warlock Punch.
 
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GunBuster

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warlock punch was never doing him any favors. however, I'm sincerely interested in how much his game would shift if they exchanged his current Fsmash with his Beamsword Fsmash, but with his sword pasted on it instead.
 

Shadic

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But if they were to change his character, they should go all out on him on most attacks. His Dead Man's Volley is a good move, but only if it could have been implemented into his Side Special. Removing Warlock Punch was not necessary and what we have now, a Light Armor Down Taunt Attack, is just pitiful in comparison because it's really weak compared to his Warlock Punch. Heck, having Warlock Punch implemented back into his moveset via Side Smash would do wonders for him.

If Side Smash were changed to Warlock Punch, that'd be grand.
...His Fsmash was changed to basically be his old Warlock Punch animation.
 

Radical Larry

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warlock punch was never doing him any favors. however, I'm sincerely interested in how much his game would shift if they exchanged his current Fsmash with his Beamsword Fsmash, but with his sword pasted on it instead.
It'd probably have a helluva lot of reach, but also have a balanced amount of damage all around, except for the arms. I think for its reach, it'd deal 18% uncharged on the blade and 22% uncharged in the arms.

...His Fsmash was changed to basically be his old Warlock Punch animation.
Oh really? Well, my horrible mistake there, thanks for correcting me.

But hey, Shadic, is it possible at all to implement a kicking animation for Ganondorf's B-Air to give him more dexterity and reach? His current B-Air is good, but I think a kick would benefit him more.

What do you think of the ideas I even have for Ganondorf, since you are apparently part of the dev team?
 

GunBuster

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It'd probably have a helluva lot of reach, but also have a balanced amount of damage all around, except for the arms. I think for its reach, it'd deal 18% uncharged on the blade and 22% uncharged in the arms.
... you can't say that with any amount of certainty.

what I mean about that is how much it would affect him as a whole.
would the extended range help?
would it just plain outclass and make some of his other moves redundant?
would it require people to completely rethink how to play as him?
or would it end up being an unwelcome change?

I would like to know if the idea ever occurred to anyone in the PMDT. I try to to imagine it would behave like Ness's bat/Lucas's stick, only appearing for the attack and promptly disappearing once done.

I mean, I like the punch, but I feel like I just never get an opportunity to use it.
 

Radical Larry

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... you can't say that with any amount of certainty.

what I mean about that is how much it would affect him as a whole.
would the extended range help?
would it just plain outclass and make some of his other moves redundant?
would it require people to completely rethink how to play as him?
or would it end up being an unwelcome change?

I would like to know if the idea ever occurred to anyone in the PMDT. I try to to imagine it would behave like Ness's bat/Lucas's stick, only appearing for the attack and promptly disappearing once done.

I mean, I like the punch, but I feel like I just never get an opportunity to use it.
The extended range would help if he had the speed for it, but regarding that, if the speed were the same on it as it is now with his current Forward Smash, it'd be some benefit, but the speed will be a balancing factor, as well as the whole multi-hitbox deal.

It wouldn't outclass all his moves if it's done correctly. Like I stated above, it can be balanced up like this, and deal 18% on the blade, so Ganondorf would have to get in close to the opponent still if he wants to have better KO power.

If the attack is angled, people would really need to rethink how to play because he'd have the ability to punish oncoming opponents who want to make an impromptu recovery. That'd be a benefit.

It wouldn't be so unwelcome, because we've had so many changes to characters in this game that weren't unwelcome changes. This wouldn't be any different; granted if Ganondorf does get this, he might have to be balanced.

Although I hope the Dev team can think up of something to make Ganondorf a fresh, new character aside from being a Falcon Semi-Clone outside special moves.
 

GunBuster

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The extended range would help if he had the speed for it, but regarding that, if the speed were the same on it as it is now with his current Forward Smash, it'd be some benefit, but the speed will be a balancing factor, as well as the whole multi-hitbox deal.

It wouldn't outclass all his moves if it's done correctly. Like I stated above, it can be balanced up like this, and deal 18% on the blade, so Ganondorf would have to get in close to the opponent still if he wants to have better KO power.

If the attack is angled, people would really need to rethink how to play because he'd have the ability to punish oncoming opponents who want to make an impromptu recovery. That'd be a benefit.

It wouldn't be so unwelcome, because we've had so many changes to characters in this game that weren't unwelcome changes. This wouldn't be any different; granted if Ganondorf does get this, he might have to be balanced.

Although I hope the Dev team can think up of something to make Ganondorf a fresh, new character aside from being a Falcon Semi-Clone outside special moves.
i don't accept any of that. I was making a mostly rhetorical statement, as the sword will probably never see use outside of his taunt anyway. besides, you are not PMDT, and lack any kind of credibility to make these statements.
 

Radical Larry

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i don't accept any of that. I was making a mostly rhetorical statement, as the sword will probably never see use outside of his taunt anyway. besides, you are not PMDT, and lack any kind of credibility to make these statements.
Again, I can only come up with mere ideas, my friend. It is up to the PMDT to make things happen; if they don't accept my ideas, I'll move on. If they somehow, someway, do, then I'd be some shocked SOB. But again, the slimmest of chances can still possibly happen.

Again, these are all ideas and theorycrafting.
 
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