Shine/Waveshine OoS

[Vista_]

Hey everyone, I've been practicing shine out of shield recently and a question occurred to me. You can't react to yourself successfully doing a grounded shine out of shield, so if you want to do a Waveshine you need faith that youll be frame perfect. Is it practical to try to Waveshine out of shield in a tournament and risk air dodging like an idiot because you weren't frame perfect or should you always just jump directly out of shine into an aerial?

 

[WulyahmK]

Hey everyone, I've been practicing shine out of shield recently and a question occurred to me. You can't react to yourself successfully doing a grounded shine out of shield, so if you want to do a Waveshine you need faith that youll be frame perfect. Is it practical to try to Waveshine out of shield in a tournament and risk air dodging like an idiot because you weren't frame perfect or should you always just jump directly out of shine into an aerial?

Well, Westballz and Mango, the top falcos rn, usually shine jump out of shield. Although it's probably not too impractical to expect to perfect waveshine oos as falco since armada and leffen can do it as fox, you could do the wavedash less horizontal and more vertical, so you end up doing an aerial shine wavedash down if you mess up.

Also in case you're not doing this already, practicing doing waveshine oos without hitstun and with hitstun is really helpful.

 

[Vista_]

Well, Westballz and Mango, the top falcos rn, usually shine jump out of shield. Although it's probably not too impractical to expect to perfect waveshine oos as falco since armada and leffen can do it as fox, you could do the wavedash less horizontal and more vertical, so you end up doing an aerial shine wavedash down if you mess up.

Also in case you're not doing this already, practicing doing waveshine oos without hitstun and with hitstun is really helpful.

Interesting. Just as a side question, when do you find it most helpful to shine out of shield? I assume it's a useful way to break another falco's shield pressure in the ditto if it's not perfect, but is it fast enough for that situation?

 

[WulyahmK]

Interesting. Just as a side question, when do you find it most helpful to shine out of shield? I assume it's a useful way to break another falco's shield pressure in the ditto if it's not perfect, but is it fast enough for that situation?

In my experience no one I've faced has had really calculated shield pressure, and from what I can remember being the most calculated would be shine grab, laser grab, or nair/dair shine. For the first two it'd probably be best to spot dodge shine after the laser/shine, and after the opponent's nair/dair shine would be a good time to shine oos. Imo almost no one uses really good shield pressure, though. Even people like mango and westballz don't use safe shield pressure to a point where if you were able to frame perfectly shine oos 100%, you'd get them a lot. For example, something specific that westballz does a lot that's not safe is fh falling dair on shield. In those scenarios were the opponent of westballz able to shine oos frame perfectly, westballz would get hit a lot. However, in the heat of the moment or for whatever reason the opponent usually doesn't punish westballz with a shine oos.

 

[Vista_]

In my experience no one I've faced has had really calculated shield pressure, and from what I can remember being the most calculated would be shine grab, laser grab, or nair/dair shine. For the first two it'd probably be best to spot dodge shine after the laser/shine, and after the opponent's nair/dair shine would be a good time to shine oos. Imo almost no one uses really good shield pressure, though. Even people like mango and westballz don't use safe shield pressure to a point where if you were able to frame perfectly shine oos 100%, you'd get them a lot. For example, something specific that westballz does a lot that's not safe is fh falling dair on shield. In those scenarios were the opponent of westballz able to shine oos frame perfectly, westballz would get hit a lot. However, in the heat of the moment or for whatever reason the opponent usually doesn't punish westballz with a shine oos.

Hm ok. Thanks for your help. Btw, in your experience is a slightly late shine out of shield (one that barely leaves the ground) still a viable option to break shield pressure if times correctly, or is it nearly always imperative to do the input frame perfectly and get a grounded shine?

 

[WulyahmK]

Hm ok. Thanks for your help. Btw, in your experience is a slightly late shine out of shield (one that barely leaves the ground) still a viable option to break shield pressure if times correctly, or is it nearly always imperative to do the input frame perfectly and get a grounded shine?

Imo it's really not imperative to get a grounded shine. If you get an aerial shine it could mean you were a frame late on the shine input after the jump, but you can also be a few frames late on the initial jump input too after getting out of shield stun. For example, you could input a frame perfect jump, shine, and wavedash out, and still not have gotten the shine out on the first possible frame, because you didn't input the first jump input in the first frame possible (which I think is really hard, b/c it'd probably take a lot of practice to figure out when you'd be out of shield stun in every scenario).

Basically, if your opponent did an unsafe aerial or something on your shield like fh dair (ie. westballz), you'll have a few frames of leniency to the point where you don't need to rely on being frame perfect. The people I play with might just be really easy, though, so my frame leniency I'm using as reference might be a lot more than your's

 

[Vista_]

Imo it's really not imperative to get a grounded shine. If you get an aerial shine it could mean you were a frame late on the shine input after the jump, but you can also be a few frames late on the initial jump input too after getting out of shield stun. For example, you could input a frame perfect jump, shine, and wavedash out, and still not have gotten the shine out on the first possible frame, because you didn't input the first jump input in the first frame possible (which I think is really hard, b/c it'd probably take a lot of practice to figure out when you'd be out of shield stun in every scenario).

Basically, if your opponent did an unsafe aerial or something on your shield like fh dair (ie. westballz), you'll have a few frames of leniency to the point where you don't need to rely on being frame perfect. The people I play with might just be really easy, though, so my frame leniency I'm using as reference might be a lot more than your's

Thanks for your help, man

 

[WulyahmK]

Thanks for your help, man

Np dood