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Shine Grab Questions

Vorde

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
258
Location
Ontario
NNID
Vorde
3DS FC
4613-7807-1976
Hey there,
Been playing Fox in Melee for about 2 years, and I heavily rely on fundamentals more than tech (although people around me call me a "technical fox"), and I have had some questions about shine grab.
I have never been able to get a frame perfect shine grab down, as I have usually tried to go about this by Shine >Y > Z
The grab will either come out too late and the person has moved away from me, or I just jump out of my shine and miss the grab input completely.
Recently I have been trying to see if it's possible to shine > tap jump > Z to see if this works well but again I haven't been able to land it.
I realize this is something that is normally done on shields but I have seen it done before not on shield.
Also one more thing, are there only certain characters that a non-shielded shinegrab can work on?
Thanks :)
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
A shine grab is just a jump cancel grab but done out of a shine. Having to move from the B button to the jump button very quickly can leave your hands in a less suitable position than they would normally be and make it harder, but if you can jump cancel grab consistently then you should be all good once you get used to doing it like that.

Jumping instead of grabbing means that you're inputting your grab too early (on the same frame that you input the jump, i.e. while you're not yet in jumpsquat).

How is the opponent "moving away" from you? They're always able to roll out after the shine, but if they're able to jump or wavedash out then you're being too slow (with the jump cancel or the grab).
 
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Vorde

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
258
Location
Ontario
NNID
Vorde
3DS FC
4613-7807-1976
How is the opponent "moving away" from you? They're always able to roll out after the shine, but if they're able to jump or wavedash out then you're being too slow (with the jump cancel or the grab).
No I mean when you shine them and they quickly move away from you from the knockback. If you do a frame perfect shinegrab it will grab them before they can get out of reach. Of course because different characters have different weights etc, I was wondering if anyone knew which ones it would work against and which ones it wouldn't
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
No I mean when you shine them and they quickly move away from you from the knockback. If you do a frame perfect shinegrab it will grab them before they can get out of reach. Of course because different characters have different weights etc, I was wondering if anyone knew which ones it would work against and which ones it wouldn't
Of the characters I tested (the top 8 on the current tier list), all of them require that the opponent SDI towards Fox to end up getting grabbed after being hit with the shine (they always have to do multiple SDI inputs if they're not crouch-cancelling; some characters only need 1 SDI input if they are crouch-cancelling). Since the grab doesn't connect on Peach (who gets sent the least distance by shine while not being knocked down of any character in the game) without SDI/crouch-cancelling, it won't connect on any other characters either. This means that getting both the shine and the grab to connect isn't something you can expect to happen consistently.

• Falco gets knocked down by shine when not crouch-cancelling, and must perform at least 1 SDI input to get grabbed when crouch-cancelling.
• Falcon must perform at least 2 SDI inputs to get grabbed when not crouch-cancelling, and at least 1 SDI input to get grabbed when crouch-cancelling.
• Fox gets knocked down by shine when not crouch-cancelling, and must perform at least 2 SDI inputs to get grabbed when crouch-cancelling.
• Ice Climbers (assuming that both climbers are synched and right next to each other) must perform at least 2 SDI inputs to get grabbed when not crouch-cancelling, and 2 SDI inputs to get grabbed when crouch-cancelling. You will grab Popo.
• Jigglypuff gets knocked down by shine when not crouch-cancelling, and must perform at least 2 SDI inputs to get grabbed when crouch-cancelling.
• NTSC Marth must perform at least 3 SDI inputs to get grabbed when not crouch-cancelling, and at least 2 SDI inputs to get grabbed when crouch-cancelling. PAL Marth is the same except he gets knocked down by shine if not crouch-cancelling.
• Peach must perform at least 2 SDI inputs to get grabbed when not crouch-cancelling, and at least 1 SDI input to get grabbed when crouch-cancelling.
• Sheik must perform at least 2 SDI inputs to get grabbed when not crouch-cancelling, and at least 1 SDI input to get grabbed when crouch-cancelling.

This was done when Fox and the opponent were grounded, facing each other, and right next to each other (at the distance they end up at after walking into each other as far as they can). The SDI inputs were alternating between fully horizontally inwards and then diagonally up and inwards on the next frame.

Of course, this is from a stand; somehow I didn't think to test it from a run until RaynEX mentioned it.
 
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reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
A shine grab is just a jump cancel grab but done out of a shine. Having to move from the B button to the jump button very quickly can leave your hands in a less suitable position than they would normally be and make it harder, but if you can jump cancel grab consistently then you should be all good once you get used to doing it like that.

Jumping instead of grabbing means that you're inputting your grab too late.

How is the opponent "moving away" from you? They're always able to roll out after the shine, but if they're able to jump or wavedash out then you're being too slow (with the jump cancel or the grab).
If you're inputting grab too late, wouldn't it come out as a nair because you're hitting z after jump squat (aka you're in midair)?
 

Hestehviskeren

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
10
Shinegrab is really not that essential. How often do you actually see pro players use it succesfully? It's good if you want to bait a spotdodge, as your opponent will dodge the shine, but get grabbed afterwards.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Shinegrab is incredible. If your opponent shields your aerial > shine, the only things fast enough to beat it are roll or spotdodge. If they try to shield grab / SH aerial (or anything else that lacks invul frames) they will get grabbed. As a top player, allow me to speak for the top players. Shine grab is great, and you don't see it often in high level matches because good players don't shield that much (it's risky and gives your opponent too much momentum, avoidance > shielding).

I shinegrab with X+Z, but you can use Y+Z or Up+Z. I used Up on the control stick as my jump input for 2.5 years back in 2007 and I had zero problems doing it. Find the method that works for you. Just practice the timing (jump first, Z very shortly afterwards, before you leave the ground)

You can combo Shine JC grab if you have running momentum on any character in the game that DOES NOT fall down from the shine. This works regardless of d.i. (unless they have unholy smash d.i. and see it coming). I've done this in my techskill vids from 2007ish, and can confirm that **** still works. It's not that complicated / doesn't require frame data mining.
 

RedLlama102

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Messages
4
R.I.P Falco mains for not having shine grabbing. But I guess he has shine to down air to make up for everything he does not have.
 
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