Pud'N
Smash Cadet
Can someone hit me up with the frame advantage/disadvantage on ness's aerials?
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Shield Frame Advantage?
- Thread starter Pud'N
- Start date
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I don't know it offhand. But auto cancelled dair is plus on block. Also, DJC bair is not safe per se, but if it connects on shield, can be tough to punish. DGC uair is definitely negative frames on block, but you might have time to spot dodge, roll, or jab/d-tilt possibly to deal with the nairs out of shield and shield grabs.
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OoS frame data for reference:
Most standing grabs: 7 frames
Most spot dodges: 2 frames (invincible on frame 2+)
Most rolls: 4 frames (invincible on frame 4+)
Fox's shine: 4 frames (but its invincible, so unless you shield it'll beat any non-disjointed attack over 3 frames)
Falco's shine: 6 frames (same as above, except 5 frames instead of 3)
Sheik's nair: 6 frames
Samu's up-b: 5 frames (invincible on frame 2-6)
Potential options after hitting with aerial:
Dtilt: hits on frame 3
Grab: grabs on frame 8
Dash away: don't know, probably at least one frame to turn around
Roll: 4 frames
Spot Dodge: 2 frames
The data:
Nair
Shieldstun: 6
Landing Lag: 11
Optimal Frame Advantage on Block: -5
Analysis: Pretty awful. If you spaced this and got the optimal frame "advantage" on block you could feasibly dash away or spot dodge to escape grabs. pretty much screwed against anything else
Fair
Shieldstun: 3 if normal hits, 4 if strong hit
Landing lag: 9
Optimal Frame Advantage on Block: -6 or -5
Analysis: Much easier to set up than nair and can shield poke, but is burdened with the same crappy options
Dair
Shieldstun: 7
Landing Lag: 14 (4 if auto cancelled)
Optimal Frame Advantage on Block: -7 (+1 if you use perfect AC set up)
Analysis: If you can perform the AC set up, has a small advantage.
Uair
Shieldstun: 7
Landing Lag: 9
Optimal Frame Advantage on Block: -2
Analysis: Not horrible. You have 5 frames to avoid grabs. Can't really do anything about shine from either spacie (unless you read it and shield; running away MIGHT work). Can't dtilt to beat rolls or spot dodges
Bair
Shieldstun: 9
Landing Lag: 9
Optimal Frame Advantage on Block: 0
Analysis: Easily Ness's best aerial for attempting shield pressure. You are already facing backwards so you don't need to smash turn for running away (which is probably the safest option). If you cross up, dtilt can beat most OoS options besides grab
Dtilt
Shieldstun: 3
Frames between dtilts: 8
Optimal Frame Advantage on Block: -5
Analysis: Definitely a gimmick.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You can auto cancel dair. It has frame advantage, buddy.
Edit: just test it. Do a SH rising dair. 4 frames of landing recovery. At some heights, DJC dair will auto cancel (you have to be reasonably high up though, usually about a full jump's height).
Edit: just test it. Do a SH rising dair. 4 frames of landing recovery. At some heights, DJC dair will auto cancel (you have to be reasonably high up though, usually about a full jump's height).
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According to the hitbox and frame data thread, you can only AC between frame 1 and 18 or after 30.
So if you hit on frame 28, you need to be airborne for 2 more frames for the AC window before landing. Giving you +1 frame advantage at most.
SH air time is 34 frames + 5 frames of jump squat. So the best set up would be to start dair after frame 4 in your jump, somehow time the very last hitbox of dair on someone who happens to be shielding, and then land after 2 more frames.
So there is a whopping 29 frames before a hitbox is out (the same speed as bowser's fsmash), and on top of that, if any of the hitboxes before the very last one hits you'd have zero frame advantage or less. You need all of the stars to align for this to work and I don't see how this could ever be a good option. Even if it has frame advantage, its only on paper.
Bair has more range, starts up in essentially half the time, can easily be used in conjunction with DJC, and has a better reward if it hits, all for basically the same frame advantage.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah, +1 isn't that much. Still better than all the other aerials for shield pressure, especially when people don't know about it's auto cancelling properties. Also, you can drift horizontally after hitting their shield with the dair, making it even more safe.
Yo, I don't think you understood just how hard it is to even get that measly 1 frame.
29 frames is a long time for your opponent to be doing nothing. Add an additional 7 frames that need to go by before the hitbox you want to hit shield comes out. Thats a 36 frame window for your opponent to either punish or completely ruin your ability to set up this "pressure"
I can't think of a situation where bair isn't better. Its 1 frame less, but its so much easier to set up and harder for the opponent to react to. Its not like Ness will be doing anything after he hits shield besides dash back so the extra distance created with bair is infinitely more valuable than the extra frame you should never get from dair.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The reason why it can work is because you condition them to shield by spacing SH fairs constantly in neutral. They will give you more respect and it enables you to go for these riskier plays like late AC dair on shield.
The bair is great too. No argument there. Honestly though I think mixing up DJC bair and AC dair is good for keeping your opponent from getting used to your rhythm.
The bair is great too. No argument there. Honestly though I think mixing up DJC bair and AC dair is good for keeping your opponent from getting used to your rhythm.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
There is the risk, but almost every aerial in the game loses to your fair, so the opponent can't just aerial out of shield whenever they see you jumping toward them. By conditioning them to respect fair, you open up the option of using dair. This is similar to the concept of empty hop grabbing someone.
At this point, I think you are defending dair for personal reasons rather than logic. Too many things can prevent the dair from working and the intercept is just one of them.
EDIT: @
ChivalRuse
Actually, I forgot that electric attacks have extra hitlag meaning they have improved shield advantage. Bair is +3 on block LOL
EDIT: @
ChivalRuse
Actually, I forgot that electric attacks have extra hitlag meaning they have improved shield advantage. Bair is +3 on block LOL
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Oh, dang. I forgot about that too. Okay, I concede the argument to you then.
Pud'N
Smash Cadet
yo bair is sick and DJC bairs are like the easiest DJC aerial too. sweet.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
yeah but how do you turnaround after you approach
Pud'N
Smash Cadet
You can use approaching DJC bairs in microspacing situations, which is really when shield pressure is useful. I can also do low djc nair --> smash turn --> low djc bair but thats a bit less practical
You can do it out of dash dance.
Ness's double jump momentum is completely independent of his ground jump. You can still get good distance with djc.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I know how DJC works. I've only been around for forever.
I've been experimenting with ways to move forward and instantly bair, and wavedash forward -> smash turn the opposite way -> bair works pretty well. I'd imagine it is even better for a double jump cancel character.
I've been experimenting with ways to move forward and instantly bair, and wavedash forward -> smash turn the opposite way -> bair works pretty well. I'd imagine it is even better for a double jump cancel character.
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Jamwa
Smash Champion
dair is ness' best positional tool lmao
edit: ppl are forced to sit in shield in case u djc ac nair or djc retreating fair
using dair as a "either you read me right now and punish me in the air, or i read you and punish your attempt at punishing me with fair/nair, or you do nothing and i get free shield pressure/possible shield poke" kinda ups your chances of getting dairs
dairs are like 50% of my gameplay, no1 has "caught on" to the gimmick, because it isnt. its a valid mixup option that forces the opponent to respect ness' airspace
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I just don't see a high level opponent not being able to react to the obvious visual and audio cues associated with dair
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I think we all just need to play Ness more and find these answers out through trial and error. Discussing what you can and can't react to is boring me to death.
No, electric modifier is only applied on hit, on shield it doesn't have effect. So bair is 0 advantage on shield.EDIT: @
You sure? There is an old strong bad post in the Falco hitboxes/frame data thread where he says that Falcon's knee is +4 due to electric hitlag. Has that been proven false?
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Jamwa
Smash Champion
thats ok you can ignore one of ness' best moves
i'd like to see how you play without it; i'm interested
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Most players will react to the potentially telegraphed movement that sets up the dair on shield. If the Ness starts the dair while rising like he's supposed to, it's difficult to react to the aerial startup itself (and/or be in a position to punish it).