Important Shield and Parrying

[Chiroz]

This will be copied directly from my twitter thread that also has videos attached. If you want to go view that thread and the videos:

https://twitter.com/ChirozDR/status/1070134963310333956



For starters, you can now cancel the Shield Drop animation into a jump at any time. I believe this was a thing in Melee but wasn't doable in Smash 4. This can be done at any time during the Shield Drop, it doesn’t have to be at the beginning.

Since you can cancel it with jump squat, this means that you can perform an aerial out of Shield Drop, but also Jump Cancelling is still in the game, it’s just much harder to do because you have to input the U-Smash after your first jump squat frame but before you leave the ground (2 frame window).

Yes, you can perform Up-B and Up-Smash while shielding without Jump Cancelling, but when you are Shield Dropping the only way to input them is by doing a Jump Cancel.



Shield Grabbing has been nerfed. When hitstun ends, you cannot Shield Grab right away, instead your character will forcefully hold shield for 4+ more frames before starting the shield grab. So dropping shield and jumping are actually faster options to punish shield pressure.



For every attack I tested (more than 10) when you parry an attack, you gain exactly 14 extra frames of advantage, no matter what attack you parry. So if the opponent's move was -6 it will now be -20. If the opponent was 0, it will now be -14.

Parrying freezes the attacker for exactly 11 extra frames than hitting a shield would have frozen him for. I tested about 10 different attacks and they all yielded 11 extra frames, from Jabs to Tilts to Fully Charged Smashes, it was always 11 more frames than "Shield Freeze".

Parrying freezes the defender for exactly 8 extra frames, but bypasses the Shield Drop Animation which was 11 frames, netting you an advantage of 3 extra frames. This means defender moves 3 frames earlier, attacker moves 11 frames later - hence 14 frames advantage.

This is, if you weren't planning to jump OoS. In case you were planning to jump OoS, then the advantage gained by parry is only 3 extra frames (Attacker frozen for extra 11, Defender for extra 8, 11-8 = 3).



When you are hit on shield, there is a certain formula that determines a certain amount of frames that dropping your shield CANNOT activate Parry for. Keyword is "activate". You STILL go through the 5 extra frames of Shield Drop. I am also trying to imply that you might be able to Parry a hit by dropping your shield a bit later, timing it so that it's after the "Can't Activate Parry" window is over.

It's not about Parrying having less active frames, it's about Shield Dropping not being able to activate Parry before frame X. For example, the difference between being hit by Falcon's N-Air and Parrying it is all about the timing you decide to drop shield. In the example of Falcon's N-Air there is a window of exactly ONE frame to get a Parry by dropping shield in between hits.

The window is hit dependent and some multihits have no window to parry, if you drop your shield, no matter the timing you will get hit. Most of the ones I tested where either 1 or 2 frame windows with a few 3 frame ones.

All of this said. When you successfully Parry an attack, there is no “Can’t Activate Parry” window. As long as you have enough time to shield and drop shield in between the hits, you can keep Parrying indefinitely. Thankfully, you cannot buffer shield release in this game. If you parry a multhit move, you are not be able to just hit shield at any time, you will have to time your next parry correctly yourself.

That said, some multihits are so fast that even if you successfully parry one hit and gain a 14 frame advantage, it might still not be enough to attempt another Parry. The earliest you can Parry is frame 4. An example of this is MK's F-Air.

There are also other multihits that are so ridiculously fast that if you Parry the first hit, you will Auto Parry all others. This is because while under the "Parry Freeze Frames" you will Auto Parry any hit that lands on you. An example of this is Wolf's F-Tilt.

In case you're wondering you can buffer any offensive move out of a Parry and there’s plenty amount of time to do so.



When parrying projectiles, the attacker suffers no freeze at all. The defender suffers 2 extra frames of freeze, but because there’s no shield drop animation (which is 11 frames) you end up being able to move 9 frames earlier. Plus no shield damage.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Really interesting stuff. One thing though, I haven't labbed this yet, but playing on my friend's pirated copy last week I remembered power shielding with A. Is it possible to skip the animation for dropping shield using a Grab or Jump, and use that to get easier power shields?

Also, in terms of the autoparry, from my understanding this only works with moves that are +14 or more on shield and there's less than 8 frames between the hits, correct?

 

[Chiroz]

Really interesting stuff. One thing though, I haven't labbed this yet, but playing on my friend's pirated copy last week I remembered power shielding with A. Is it possible to skip the animation for dropping shield using a Grab or Jump, and use that to get easier power shields?

Also, in terms of the autoparry, from my understanding this only works with moves that are +14 or more on shield and there's less than 8 frames between the hits, correct?

Grabbing and Jumping should not give you a parry window, but because it happened to me once during the CEO Demo in June, it could be that there’s a bug that activates it somehow. I have been hit enough out of my grab to know it’s not a thing that happens often or even scarcely.


I don’t know the exact math for the multi hits autoparrying but your logic seems on point. The multi hit must be incredibly + on shield and also be super fast in terms of frames in berween hits.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Grabbing and Jumping should not give you a parry window, but because it happened to me once during the CEO Demo in June, it could be that there’s a bug that activates it somehow. I have been hit enough out of my grab to know it’s not a thing that happens often or even scarcely.


I don’t know the exact math for the multi hits autoparrying but your logic seems on point. The multi hit must be incredibly + on shield and also be super fast in terms of frames in berween hits.

What I think it most likely is is the fact that Power Shielding only requires you to be shielding and have your shield disappear during the parry window. Whether it's from a grab or a jump probably doesn't matter, although using either of them could be better (because of not having to take as long to start the dropping shield animation/the game being more responsive than with registering no longer holding down a trigger button)

 

[Chiroz]

What I think it most likely is is the fact that Power Shielding only requires you to be shielding and have your shield disappear during the parry window. Whether it's from a grab or a jump probably doesn't matter, although using either of them could be better (because of not having to take as long to start the dropping shield animation/the game being more responsive than with registering no longer holding down a trigger button)

And I just tried to explain that that is not the case as I’ve been hit out of my shield grab which is frame 6 many times. If that was the case my shield grab would always be 100% guaranteed at the very least to trade, and that is not the case.

You can also be hit during jumpsquat when exiting a shield.

It did happen to me at the CEO demo that my grab performed a parry, so there might be some edgecase bug out there that makes grabs out of shield parry.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

And I just tried to explain that that is not the case as I’ve been hit out of my shield grab which is frame 6 many times. If that was the case my shield grab would always be 100% guaranteed at the very least to trade, and that is not the case.

You can also be hit during jumpsquat when exiting a shield.

It did happen to me at the CEO demo that my grab performed a parry, so there might be some edgecase bug out there that makes grabs out of shield parry.

Oh, I thought you had to be within a small enough amount of frames of the Shield being fully released, so like if you got hit of frame 3 or earlier of your grab. That would make OoS options better at parrying.

Maybe it’s only if you get hit and pick an OoS option on the same frame?

 

[Chiroz]

Oh, I thought you had to be within a small enough amount of frames of the Shield being fully released, so like if you got hit of frame 3 or earlier of your grab. That would make OoS options better at parrying.

Maybe it’s only if you get hit and pick an OoS option on the same frame?

Parrying is a 5 frame window normally. I can try to test the “same frame” theory.



Edit: Tested with both grab and jump and no, you still get hit on the same frame.

 

[Doval]

For every attack I tested (more than 10) when you parry an attack, you gain exactly 14 extra frames of advantage, no matter what attack you parry. So if the opponent's move was -6 it will now be -20. If the opponent was 0, it will now be -14.

Parrying freezes the attacker for exactly 11 extra frames than hitting a shield would have frozen him for. I tested about 10 different attacks and they all yielded 11 extra frames, from Jabs to Tilts to Fully Charged Smashes, it was always 11 more frames than "Shield Freeze".

Parrying freezes the defender for exactly 8 extra frames, but bypasses the Shield Drop Animation which was 11 frames, netting you an advantage of 3 extra frames. This means defender moves 3 frames earlier, attacker moves 11 frames later - hence 14 frames advantage.

This is, if you weren't planning to jump OoS. In case you were planning to jump OoS, then the advantage gained by parry is only 3 extra frames (Attacker frozen for extra 11, Defender for extra 8, 11-8 = 3).

The animation for parry is a bit misleading. While the defender unfreezes 3 frames early, they still can't do anything during those 3 frames; they're only able to act on the same frame the attacker unfreezes. So there's no 3 frame advantage there.

 

[Chiroz]

The animation for parry is a bit misleading. While the defender unfreezes 3 frames early, they still can't do anything during those 3 frames; they're only able to act on the same frame the attacker unfreezes. So there's no 3 frame advantage there.

I wasn’t measuring animation, I was measuring specifically number of frames before an attack comes out.

Defender is able to attack 8 frames later than he would have if he had shielded, Attacker is able to attack 11 frames later than if opponent had shielded. Thus defender gains 3 more frames of advantage + doesn’t need to drop shield anymore which equates to an extra 11 frames for grounded options thus a 14 frame extra advantage.

 

[Swoops]

Not sure if I missed it, but what is the window then for a parry NOT out of a multihit ?

If shield drop is 11f , can it happen at any point in those frames ? IE what are the active frames for a parry in neutral

 

[J0eyboi]

Not sure if I missed it, but what is the window then for a parry NOT out of a multihit ?

If shield drop is 11f , can it happen at any point in those frames ? IE what are the active frames for a parry in neutral

It's the first 5 frames

 

[Swoops]

It's the first 5 frames

Got it, thanks! So basically quickest parry window is frame 4 - 8

 

[Shieldlesscap]

This has me wondering, can you parry by releasing shield on the frame you get hit or does it have to be at least one frame before?

 

[Chiroz]

This has me wondering, can you parry by releasing shield on the frame you get hit or does it have to be at least one frame before?

It can be on the same frame.

 

[Doval]

I wasn’t measuring animation, I was measuring specifically number of frames before an attack comes out.

You're right. I later realized those 3 frames during which hit freeze seemed to be over but my character still couldn't act was actually the normal shield stun of the move.

 

["Bn"]

So we have to slightly lower our shield health every time we block projectiles even though we time it perfectly? I'm not sure i like this mechanic after all. Seems like it might make zoning characters even more stressful, especially before people get the hang of it.

 

[NekoEx]

I'm having trouble figuring out the math on how to parry the 3rd hit of Cloud's side smash. This attack hits 3 times, and I've parried all 3 hits only once (and that took too long for me to get it even once in practice mode with time slowed down). It feels like you really only have a 1 or maybe 2 frame window to parry the whole attack. Getting the 3rd hit parry seems like is dependent on how soon (or late?) you parry the first 2 hits, because if you just parry the first 2 hits normally, then on the same 11th frame your shield comes out is when cloud's 3rd hit comes out (making you 1 frame too late)

Can someone explain exactly on which frame do you need to let go of block in order to parry all 3 hits?

 

[iankobe]

Not sure if I'm asking a dumb question (because I haven't tried it myself), but can you parry everything? Ex. Can you parry get-up, off the ledge attacks with invincibility frames?

 

[Kadji100]

I can at least comfirm that you can parry get up attacks from the ledge. And it feeld great to parry a get up attack from the ledge and smash them into oblivion.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm having trouble figuring out the math on how to parry the 3rd hit of Cloud's side smash. This attack hits 3 times, and I've parried all 3 hits only once (and that took too long for me to get it even once in practice mode with time slowed down). It feels like you really only have a 1 or maybe 2 frame window to parry the whole attack. Getting the 3rd hit parry seems like is dependent on how soon (or late?) you parry the first 2 hits, because if you just parry the first 2 hits normally, then on the same 11th frame your shield comes out is when cloud's 3rd hit comes out (making you 1 frame too late)

Can someone explain exactly on which frame do you need to let go of block in order to parry all 3 hits?

When you parry there is no shield drop animation so there is no 11 frame shield drop. As long as you parry the 2nd hit, you are still able to parry the 3rd. As explained in the thread though, some attacks cause you to not be able to activate the parry window for X frames which means that you might need to drop your shield a bit closer to the 2nd/3rd hit actually landing as opposed to as early as you can.

 

[Swoops]

Was anyone working on how to calculate shield stun in this game ? Was thinking it might be similar to smash 4.

EDIT:
Following up on this (and please let me know if I should be posting this in a better place,) has anybody else found that aerial attack shield stun has been heavily nerfed? Testing quite a few aerials it seems like aerial damage has little to do with shield stun, with tons of aerials being maybe -6 at best. Just a thought since I was testing ganon aerials and the huge damage hits barely did any shield stun.

Kind of a bummer since you would think slower, more damaging hits would yield better reward on shield

 

[Doval]

has anybody else found that aerial attack shield stun has been heavily nerfed?

That's mentioned in the Tips menu. It's intentional.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

So we have to slightly lower our shield health every time we block projectiles even though we time it perfectly? I'm not sure i like this mechanic after all. Seems like it might make zoning characters even more stressful, especially before people get the hang of it.

Nah, if you tap the shield button 4 frames before the projectile hits you then you’ll parry it and your shield won’t have been up for long enough to start shrinking (I believe your shield starts to shrink after a few frames but it definitely isn’t within the first 4. Alternatively, it might just be that your shield doesn’t shrink during the drop animation but I haven’t tested this yet.). Tapping shield right before getting hit is actually how I tend to parry when I’m doing multihits. Speaking of...

I'm having trouble figuring out the math on how to parry the 3rd hit of Cloud's side smash. This attack hits 3 times, and I've parried all 3 hits only once (and that took too long for me to get it even once in practice mode with time slowed down). It feels like you really only have a 1 or maybe 2 frame window to parry the whole attack. Getting the 3rd hit parry seems like is dependent on how soon (or late?) you parry the first 2 hits, because if you just parry the first 2 hits normally, then on the same 11th frame your shield comes out is when cloud's 3rd hit comes out (making you 1 frame too late)

Can someone explain exactly on which frame do you need to let go of block in order to parry all 3 hits?

There’s normally 4 frames between the two hits, and if you parry the second hit, there’s now 15 frames between hits. You’re frozen for 8 of those frames so you have a 7 frame window to act. The earliest you can parry is frame 4, so you have 3 frames to release your shield assuming you buffer shield during the freeze frames, and you should always get the parry because the hit will be on frame 4 of your shield release. If you do it any earlier, you’ll still get the parry between frame 5 and 7 of your shield release, which is within the parry window. If however you’re too late, you’ll be on the 3rd frame of your shield release and unable to parry.

I might be wrong about this, I’m not exactly sure if I perfectly understand the mechanics right now.

That said, as I mentioned earlier, for me it’s easier to just tap shield for things like this, so you don’t need to worry about timing the release, only about getting shield up to begin with fast enough.

 

[MG_3989]

So I had a thought. If somebody was to get really good at parrying would holding sheild be obsolete (other than for mind games and multihits). Since shield grab is bad now there’s not as much insentive to leave your shield up, it can get you punished and put you in disadvantage. Do you guys think once people get good at parrying we’ll see far less shielding?

 

[ZephyrZ]

So I had a thought. If somebody was to get really good at parrying would holding sheild be obsolete (other than for mind games and multihits). Since shield grab is bad now there’s not as much insentive to leave your shield up, it can get you punished and put you in disadvantage. Do you guys think once people get good at parrying we’ll see far less shielding?

There's limits to human reaction time so parrying most attacks will require predicting when your opponents attack will land. Even if someone ends up becoming a master at parrying they will still be taking a risk everytime they do it as long as their opponent is able to mix up their timing on their attacks. Even if holding shield grants less reward, it will almost always be the safer option of the two when your not sure exactly what your opponent will do while parrying will be used for hard reads and reactable attacks.

Even with nerfed shield grabs characters with fast aerials, up specials or up smashes will also still be able to act out of shield fairly quickly regardless, and even characters who don't can still roll or jump away to escape pressure.

 

[MG_3989]

There's limits to human reaction time so parrying most attacks will require predicting when your opponents attack will land. Even if someone ends up becoming a master at parrying they will still be taking a risk everytime they do it as long as their opponent is able to mix up their timing on their attacks. Even if holding shield grants less reward, it will almost always be the safer option of the two when your not sure exactly what your opponent will do while parrying will be used for hard reads and reactable attacks.

Yeah that’s what I thought would be the biggest problem with it but there are some people out there with insane reaction time and ability. I don’t think it will work in every situation and only a small amount of players will be able to parry effectively the majority of the time but I think it would be interesting if it became a big part of the game. I was just throwing some idea out there but human error definitely holds this strategy back

 

[Doval]

Reaction time can be improved slightly with a lot of effort but it's going to stay higher than the startup of most moves no matter what you do. Top players don't react better; they predict better and make also make better decisions, only committing when the odds of guessing wrong are lower and the consequences of being wrong aren't as impactful, or when the payout of guessing right is big.

Parrying isn't significantly better than the old Perfect Shield system and that tech wasn't dominating matches back then. It's riskier now since it involves lowering your shield. If you have near-perfect reaction time and prediction you wouldn't need it anyways; you could punish by picking the right counterattack or sidestepping.