Sheik's Chaingrab?

Jackson

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#1
Shiek was known for her chaingrabbing/tech chasing in Melee. Sadly, Smash 4 eradicated chaingrabs. Or did it? I'm going to propose an idea that seems like it just might work. If this is real, this will be a very big deal for our main as "free damage" as very desirable in this game.

The concept revolves around Dthrow and Uair. At low percents, you need to grab your opponent and Dthrow them. Then, jump and quickly hit them with the spike variant of Uair (shown in @ Tristan_win Tristan_win 's thread). Your opponent should descend right in front of you, opening things up for a regrab to repeat. You could throw in a pummel for a bit of extra damage. This seems like it would work until early mid percents on most fighters, dependent on weight and stuff.

I need somebody to test this, as I'm having trouble making the spike Uair happen consistently with the 3DS controls. That's part of why I'm so hyped for Shiek on Wii U: easy aerials, DACUS, B reverses, and ledge tricks discussed in my thread here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/advanced-techniques-ledge-nade-and-ledge-flip.371466/

Anyway, even if the regrab isn't legit this combo could still function as a tech chase. Someone please test the chaingrab and comment your findings here! If this is real I think my discovery would contribute a lot to the Shiek metagame. As said in my other thread, I'll keep looking for cool tidbits/techs like this!

UPDATE: After testing, this chaingrab seems real, although it is DI, weight, and percent dependent.

1.04 UPDATE: This is less legitimate now, due to the Uair changes. It is still a worthwhile mixup/frame trap, though.
 
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NotLiquid

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#2
I'm no Sheik expert but I managed to pull this off. Training didn't register it as a combo though and I assume its because the opponent can seemingly tech out of it before you recover from the landing lag.
 
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Jackson

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#3
I'm no Sheik expert but I managed to pull this off. Training didn't register it as a combo though and I assume its because the opponent can seemingly tech out of it before you recover from the landing lag.
Hmm, interesting. It may turn out to be a tech chase (which is still very good, mind you) like I mentioned. We should test more, though.

I dont think they can tech at really low percents though because the Uair spike doesnt seem to be a knockdown then.
 
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#4
I'll be honest and say I haven't extensively test this yet but only because the initial results weren't promising. I practice this extensively on mario and a bit on Boswer (the heaviest) and have had no luck finding a percentage where Sheik could dthrow or fthrow into uair which demand them to tech. What really limiting this is how Sheik cannot have any upward momentum when she lands the uair so you are force to use short hops. I haven't look for the exact percentage yet but I think by the time your opponent reaches a percentage where Uair would require a techable spike they can no longer be combo from throws into short hop uairs. I think this because even at 70% after doing a fthrow, dash, short hop uair/sling spike on mario he still didn't need to tech.

I really want Sheik to have a force check chase again so please prove me wrong.
 
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Jackson

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#5
I'll be honest and say I haven't extensively test this yet but only because the initial results weren't promising. I practice this extensively on mario and a bit on Boswer (the heaviest) and have had no luck finding a percentage where Sheik could dthrow or fthrow into uair which demand them to tech. What really limiting this is how Sheik cannot have any upward momentum when she lands the uair so you are force to use short hops. I haven't look for the exact percentage yet but I think by the time your opponent reaches a percentage where Uair would require a techable spike they can no longer be combo from throws into short hop uairs. I think this because even at 70% after doing a fthrow, dash, short hop uair/sling spike on mario he still didn't need to tech.

I really want Sheik to have a force check chase again because I'm good at reading techs so please prove me wrong.
Thanks for the info. Overall it seems like we still need to test a lot more. But again, are we sure that this can't be done at very low percents when the Uair spike is untechable?
 
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#6
Thanks for the info. Overall it seems like we still need to test a lot more. But again, are we sure that this can't be done at very low percents when the Uair spike is untechable?
Right now I'm under the impression that they only need to tech when they are in the higher percents but I'm sure a sneaky sneaky froggie name @ Chiroz Chiroz would better know if that's the case or not.
 
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Chiroz

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#8
Right now I'm under the impression that they only need to tech when they are in the higher percents but I'm sure a sneaky sneaky froggie name @ Chiroz Chiroz would better know if that's the case or not.
Yes, the tech from spikes is only at higher percents, but at least with Greninja this % starts around 30-40%. I have been able to regrab from untechable spikes. And you are able to tech chase from techable spikes (or punish with a smash to the face if they don't tech). I don't know about comboing Sheik's throws though, I haven't played her that much to be honest,
 

Jackson

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#9
Okay so from what we've found: possible chaingrab at low percents, definite tech chase at later percents. All I want to know now is if it actually works at low percents.
 

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#10
Okay so from what we've found: possible chaingrab at low percents, definite tech chase at later percents. All I want to know now is if it actually works at low percents.
U-Air spike-> grab works perfectly if you cancel it with the ground as both you and your opponent will be out of "lag" at the exact same time but you will already be buffering a grab (while he is probably trying to DI/VI away or shield). Depending on your opponent he might be able to get a jab out but I am not 100% sure, I've never had anyone jab me out of it. Although I haven't done it all that many times to be honest. I still can't quite get the hang of the U-Air spike.
 

Jackson

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#11
U-Air spike-> grab works perfectly if you cancel it with the ground as both you and your opponent will be out of "lag" at the exact same time but you will already be buffering a grab (while he is probably trying to DI/VI away or shield). Depending on your opponent he might be able to get a jab out but I am not 100% sure, I've never had anyone jab me out of it. Although I haven't done it all that many times to be honest. I still can't quite get the hang of the U-Air spike.
I struggle with it as well. Should be so much better w/GC controller. Anyway, i think this chaingrab is legit except maybe not on characters with frame 1 jabs or something. But AGAIN, we all need proof, so we should get video evidence or something.
 
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#12
Something strange I notice when I was trying to make this work was how like every time I did it to mario or boswer they would land facing away from me. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong but if we do truly land with the same amount of lag then at the very least sheiks will have the postilion advantage since she could just jab-jab, crouch, grab which will beat the majority of character options

Has anyone else notice this happening to them?
 

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#13
I've been having the same thing happen to me on Little Mac. Whenever I pull off the d-grab to u-air spike he always finishes facing away from me. If this is a pattern with every character it could make this technique much more viable.

But like people have said, this is definitely difficult to pull off on the 3DS. I think it will be much more aplicable with a gamecube controller.
 

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#14
Ok, I testet this as well. Fisrt off, yes, Shiek seems to land behind the opponent.
Second, I dunno how you make them tech. I was able to connect the U-Air spike up to 120% and the Link I testet it on would land crouching (I dont know if this is the AI or forced, but he would crouch always after landing). So I don't see how they should be teching (and seriously, after 120% a techchase seems useless...)
However, as mentioned, I was able to pull of the string from 0% to 120%... on a training - opponent.
I feel like maybe the first 2 regrabs are guaranteed. After that, the Uair needs so precise spacing and timing, I feel like he should be able to vektor out/away from the U-air. Also, when touching the ground, sometimes I was already standing when he was still in the air, what seems to be a legit chaingrab, however, i had times when both landed at the same time, me having lagg of the uair, him crouching, unable to do anything. Maybe a fast opponent would be able to dash away / roll / spotdodge. I had the AI set to jump (they jump the moment they touch the ground), but they were never able to jump out of the crouch-landing, so i'm not to sure if they can even act out of it. If not, the combo seems guaranteed.
As a sidenote, at about and over 60% you can Dthrow-> highhop (over or to your opponent) -> Fastfall Uair into them, and continue the string. But since this takes really long, they might be ble to airdodge. But whatever, the Uair has such a long hitbox, it might just have a longer duration then the airdodge and still pull the opponent down.

EDIT: Ok, testet it on a Level 9 CPU. Apperently, they can escape after the first Uair already. However, I was sometimes able to regrab them while in the air (as mentioned above). When I was able to do that, they were unable to escape. Seems like Shieks true chaingrab will require quit some precission but could be possible. However, once they landed, they seemed to have three options to escape. Spotdodge, roll left and roll right. Since they were facing away from me, no attack was fast enough. And this comes imo quite close to techchasing... reading their rolls.
And another sidenote, it's easier to get the Uair followup with Fthrow after about 50%. You should try it out, it's actually really easy.
 
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Wasserwipf

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#16
Soo, I was playing a few matches against my brother, and we were testing out the chaingrab a bit (well he was looking for a way to break out, since he doesn't want to get stomped by me once or if I master the chaingrab, so it was totally in his intrest not to be chaingrabable). He played as ROB and later as mario, but first of ROB.
I was not able to connect the chaingrab at 0%. I tried it a few times but it seemed really hard. probably I just messed up, but who knows. However, after he got 6% of dmg, I could get started. The chain, if I executed it right, worked with d-throw->Uair until about 56%, and later only fthrow->uair to about 70%. The "good" thing was, he was literally mashing all the buttons, and I still was able to connect the chaingrabs. However, there were a few flaws. After the Dthrow, he was sometimes able to vektor away from me and thus not getting hit by the Uair. Additionaly sometimes he was able to jump out of the U-air. however, this seems only possible if you mess up and don't fastfall and / or hit properly (I think you need 2 hits of de Uair, seems like one is sometimes not enough). So it seems like the Shiek player needs quite good spacing. Oe last thing, I was able to take one stock by Uair-spiking him offstage (me landing at the edge, him passing the edge) he went really far down, unable to recover. He had around 100% I think, but I beleive he could have survived if he has used Up-B fast enough. But I dunno, this seems really useful atm.
Now to Mario, and here comes the ridiculus part. I was able to Chaingrab between 25% and 40%. I was not able to do this before and after. And I was only able to regrab if he messed up. Why? Fisrt, mario flies really high after Dthrow. Thus, SH Uair FF wouldn't connect. I had more luck with Fthrow, I dont think its really possible to do the chain out of Dthrow. Additionally, after us both touching the ground, he was able to turnaround-Jab me. It was the only thing he could do, but it worked all the time.

So summing that all up, it seems like Shieks chaingrab is going to be kinda like Pikachus in Brawl, with what works on which % against which character. I can already see the long list with all those numbers numbers x.x
 

Jackson

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#17
Soo, I was playing a few matches against my brother, and we were testing out the chaingrab a bit (well he was looking for a way to break out, since he doesn't want to get stomped by me once or if I master the chaingrab, so it was totally in his intrest not to be chaingrabable). He played as ROB and later as mario, but first of ROB.
I was not able to connect the chaingrab at 0%. I tried it a few times but it seemed really hard. probably I just messed up, but who knows. However, after he got 6% of dmg, I could get started. The chain, if I executed it right, worked with d-throw->Uair until about 56%, and later only fthrow->uair to about 70%. The "good" thing was, he was literally mashing all the buttons, and I still was able to connect the chaingrabs. However, there were a few flaws. After the Dthrow, he was sometimes able to vektor away from me and thus not getting hit by the Uair. Additionaly sometimes he was able to jump out of the U-air. however, this seems only possible if you mess up and don't fastfall and / or hit properly (I think you need 2 hits of de Uair, seems like one is sometimes not enough). So it seems like the Shiek player needs quite good spacing. Oe last thing, I was able to take one stock by Uair-spiking him offstage (me landing at the edge, him passing the edge) he went really far down, unable to recover. He had around 100% I think, but I beleive he could have survived if he has used Up-B fast enough. But I dunno, this seems really useful atm.
Now to Mario, and here comes the ridiculus part. I was able to Chaingrab between 25% and 40%. I was not able to do this before and after. And I was only able to regrab if he messed up. Why? Fisrt, mario flies really high after Dthrow. Thus, SH Uair FF wouldn't connect. I had more luck with Fthrow, I dont think its really possible to do the chain out of Dthrow. Additionally, after us both touching the ground, he was able to turnaround-Jab me. It was the only thing he could do, but it worked all the time.

So summing that all up, it seems like Shieks chaingrab is going to be kinda like Pikachus in Brawl, with what works on which % against which character. I can already see the long list with all those numbers numbers x.x
Thanks for the testing! Yeah, I agree in that it seems similar to brawl Pika's. Overall, this seems like a great tool and a nice discovery.
 

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#18
wait just so I understand. The CPU was able to airdodge out right? but you can just grab the airdodge lag?

Just want to be sure I understand
 

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#19
wait just so I understand. The CPU was able to airdodge out right? but you can just grab the airdodge lag?

Just want to be sure I understand
What exactly are you referring at? And if it's the edit of my first post, then the answer is kinda. To be precise, we (or at least I) are still trying to figure out how and if this works. In my test against a human opponent I realised I coudn't connect the uair if I grabbed him at 0%, only if i grabbed them with already some dmg. This sums up with the discovery that the AI was able to airdodge out of the first throw. However, I still believe both are technical errors by me, and it is possible to chaingrab them right from the beginning.
About the Airdodge, yes, you can regrab them after they dodge. However, that theyre able to airdodge also means that they could throw out fast attacks (many nairs are really fast) and break the chain, so theres the problem. As mentioned, I still believe it could be done, I'm just not good enough yet to completle confirm it.
 

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#21
What exactly are you referring at? And if it's the edit of my first post, then the answer is kinda. To be precise, we (or at least I) are still trying to figure out how and if this works. In my test against a human opponent I realised I coudn't connect the uair if I grabbed him at 0%, only if i grabbed them with already some dmg. This sums up with the discovery that the AI was able to airdodge out of the first throw. However, I still believe both are technical errors by me, and it is possible to chaingrab them right from the beginning.
About the Airdodge, yes, you can regrab them after they dodge. However, that theyre able to airdodge also means that they could throw out fast attacks (many nairs are really fast) and break the chain, so theres the problem. As mentioned, I still believe it could be done, I'm just not good enough yet to completle confirm it.
Sorry I forget to hit reply and specify, but you answered my question so thank you!

Fthrow seems like a better set up
Works on greninja at 0. Dunno how DI factors but it's co firming its possible

Tested on pika, charizard, lucario, zss, yoshi
Could get it from 0-65ish. Against Smaller characters have to delay the uair at 0. With no Di you can go coast to coast for about 50%.

@ Wasserwipf Wasserwipf @ Tristan_win Tristan_win
 
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DtJ Jungle

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#22
OKAY double post because its important

It was mentioned before but doing the uair spike to jab does not register as a combo. Which means they can do stuff afterwards, technically. I'm sure there are jabs that beat it but I haven't had it happen to me yet. Maybe you can jump out of it? I have no idea

secondly, on the spike, the opponent can do things in the air. i had a charizard rock smash animation start on me, which leads me to conclude that other things that start faster can actually connect if we're not careful.

thirdly, i haven't been able to even connect this on dthrow. i can do it fairly consistently off fthrow but vectoring (or whatever) away makes regrab seemingly impossible. vectoring up is also annoying.

What I've gathered is that this thing is really really good to someone who doesnt know its coming or isnt ready for it. Once Frame data is out we'll know more for sure on what characters we can do this safely on and which ones we can't.
 
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Jackson

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#23
OKAY double post because its important

It was mentioned before but doing the uair spike to jab does not register as a combo. Which means they can do stuff afterwards, technically. I'm sure there are jabs that beat it but I haven't had it happen to me yet. Maybe you can jump out of it? I have no idea

secondly, on the spike, the opponent can do things in the air. i had a charizard rock smash animation start on me, which leads me to conclude that other things that start faster can actually connect if we're not careful.

thirdly, i haven't been able to even connect this on dthrow. i can do it fairly consistently off fthrow but vectoring (or whatever) away makes regrab seemingly impossible. vectoring up is also annoying.

What I've gathered is that this thing is really really good to someone who doesnt know its coming or isnt ready for it. Once Frame data is out we'll know more for sure on what characters we can do this safely on and which ones we can't.
Good point. Until we know how to fully manipulate the chain grab this technique might just be used to "wreck noobs" lol.
 

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#24
Well it works on good players too, like it's a good thing to do once of in a combo for an extra like 10-12% but i wouldnt bank on being able to do it over and over. I'm using it more as a combo extender.

Also I dont think it works on Fox/Falco. They fall too fast after the uair and land before you do lol
 

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#25
Hey @ DtJ Jungle DtJ Jungle if you want sometime we could do a test on the cast with me (or someone else since us two would probably lag a bit) trying to escape the CG in a different number of ways.
 

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#28
I have to agree with DtJ on this one. In its current form the chain grab doesn't look like something that can be repeated over and over. Rather, it serves to be a bit of damage in-between another followup like a full u-air or f-air.
 

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#29
Greninja confirmed for being able to buffer a roll out of this at all percents

I think there might be a window where if you land well before greninja you they can't roll but can't tell

Zard confirmed for being able to roll out. I even got foot stooled once :(

Side note: on greninja and zard I was able to do dash nair ff regrab/jab at low percents (registers as a true combo until like 30). Aftee that dash atttack or dash grab worked after the nair so. There's that.

Just putting this here to keep all my thoughts on this in the same place:
I played a friend's yoshi last night and all 4 times I attempted this he escaped and I even got hit out of my uair once. I saved the replay so I'll record the video and upload it
 
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#30
Been playing with this for a bit now, seems like at lower percentages with some characters (DK for ex) you dont need to fast fall, just SH -> late uair. Pretty sure you guys knew about this as its a very "feel" situation with this combo, but im mentioning just in case others like me were studying up on it.
 

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#31
I just had a match on for glory, where I first hit killed the opponent(link) using this method. He was at the edge of the stage and the meteor dropped him down to an instant KO.
 

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#34
has anyone figured how to do this consistently? the timing is rather tough, would like to be more accurate with this.
I can do it pretty reliably. You really need to time your down press at the apex of your jump to ensure the cancel. Also, I've been sparring against a Zero Suit Samus, and she can reliably evade it by vectoring horizontally. I can only pull it off reliably less than ~50% as well.
 

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#39
Does this still work after the update?
Unfortunately, I've heard that it does not. I believe this is due to a change in Uair.
I was able to pull it off on for Glory. Since it never was guaranteed, or almost not, its not that much harder. I think the timing is a little stricter, but it still works. However, it's probably best to do it like twice and then end with Fthrow BF, thanks to (almost no)
VI.
 

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#40
It still works, but not to the same extent. It's almost exclusively a mix-up/frame trap now. While I can leave the testing of it's legitimacy to the Sheik gods Saviorslegacy and Tristan, it feels harder to do, but still possible.
 
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