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Sheik Tech: C-Bounce

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
So I've been working on using the retreating version of this tech for fox (Opposite Orientation, Same Momentum: Input :GCCL: + :GCB: immediately after releasing :GCR:)


looks like this

http://giphy.com/gifs/l41lQ5Fa9iBtnYKNW

But it seems the more I practice the worse I get at it, I've been getting heaps of sideb's.
If I get a sideb, did I press special too early before letting go of the stick?
Any tips on tightening the timing up apart from practicing more (because I am already doing that)
 

WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
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So I've been working on using the retreating version of this tech for fox (Opposite Orientation, Same Momentum: Input :GCCL: + :GCB: immediately after releasing :GCR:)


looks like this

http://giphy.com/gifs/l41lQ5Fa9iBtnYKNW

But it seems the more I practice the worse I get at it, I've been getting heaps of sideb's.
If I get a sideb, did I press special too early before letting go of the stick?
Any tips on tightening the timing up apart from practicing more (because I am already doing that)
If you use Illusion out of the C-bounce, you're pressing :GCB: too early; if you tilt/dash attack, you're hitting :GCCL: too early. I've found that hitting the buttons as hard as you can reduces the window of potential error. Don't hurt yourself.
 
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_Tree

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Maybe with this you won't lose so easily to V Atyeo :>
 

I speak Spanish too

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Joined
May 25, 2015
Messages
243
I am definitely going to combine this with foxtrot cancels, small dash dances, and perfect pivot. How fast can you jump or attack out of a c bounce btw? This is alot of movement tech and i havent mastered any of it lol. Also what does INC stand for?
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
I am definitely going to combine this with foxtrot cancels, small dash dances, and perfect pivot. How fast can you jump or attack out of a c bounce btw? This is alot of movement tech and i havent mastered any of it lol. Also what does INC stand for?
INC stands for Instant Needle Cancel.
How fast you can act out is dependent on when you cancel your needles. You can either instantly cancel your needles to perform a move (how fast is how much frame data the move your are applying has) or just simply charge them and react...
 

I speak Spanish too

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
243
INC stands for Instant Needle Cancel.
How fast you can act out is dependent on when you cancel your needles. You can either instantly cancel your needles to perform a move (how fast is how much frame data the move your are applying has) or just simply charge them and react...
So can you do a C-bounce to an INC?
 

tronfox64

Smash Cadet
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May 14, 2015
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Save INC out of C-Bounce for the TAS videos IMO. I've pretty much given up on that ridiculous combo and have settled for normal needle cancels out of c-bounce. My fingers refuse to learn it >:/
 

Danimal197

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
77
tronfox64 tronfox64 no! don't give up! It is 100% doable, you just have to flick that c-stick almost like you would for a PP. I've also had some success by sliding my index finger from b to a. (I use a claw grip, so I cbounce by thumbing cstick and index finger on b). The hardest timing for me still is getting the buffered input in before hitting shield, as I tend to often grab instead (pressing them too close together, I think).

Also TAS sheik omg
 
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Darklink401

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Omg this is useful :D it also helped my Marth c-bounce shieldbreaker. XP

<3
 

Danimal197

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
77
So, ironically, I actually have an easier time doing INC after doing a cbounce, because the timing is so strict that my fingers have just enough time to do it, whereas if I try to INC out of a dash, I mess up. LOL

might make a video about how I destroy my hands,
 

Snasen

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
26
Note: this thread uses default GameCube controls (L/R shield, B special, etc.), unless otherwise stated.

This tech was first mentioned on the Sheik board with @TheReflexWonder's video posted in @ tronfox64 tronfox64 's Instant Needle Cancel (INC) thread. Please refer back there for the original discussion and to give them your love.

Introduction
What on earth is C-Bouncing? Well, it's a modified form of wavebouncing, which is a tech which allows the player to jump forward and then snap backward while facing the direction of the initial jump (My Smash Corner made a video covering that here). C-bouncing allows for a similar backward snap but with the awesome ability to be performed on the ground and with arguably simpler inputs.

Bouncing
To perform a C-Bounce, the player must first set the C-stick to Attack and then input :GCCN: + :GCB: at the same time. When performed correctly, a C-Bounce should look very similar to a backward Wavedash in Melee; however, it can only be performed while already moving*.

There are three possible cases of orientation and momentum behavior upon performing this tech. The following will be illustrated as if you are moving to the right:
  • Same Orientation, Reverse Momentum: Input :GCCL: + :GCB: while holding :GCR:
  • Same Orientation, Same Momentum: Input :GCCR: + :GCB: while holding or immediately after releasing:GCR:
  • Opposite Orientation, Same Momentum: Input :GCCL: + :GCB: immediately after releasing :GCR:
*A stationary "C-Bounce" can be performed, but without any momentum, it only behaves as a B-reversal. This is an effective training tool but has little actual use.

Applications
  • Along with the B-Reverse Slide Cancel, Sheik can slide and face in any direction out of a dash. This can be used for general mindgames or in conjunction with the INC to perform any jab, tilts, smashes, or specials with only a 7-frame delay. Of course, this requires very fast inputs, but with enough practice, the player should be able to do incredible things.
  • It is also possible to perform a C-bounce to shield, which allows you to alleviate/avoid shield pressure and respond for a counter-attack, though it requires a frame-perfect shield input. This is also the first step to incorporating the INC, as the frame on which you shield is the frame on which you cancel your needles.
  • While more situational than anything, the third variation mentioned above allows for an aerial B-reversal without any shift in momentum.
Other Fighters

While Sheik gets arguably the most from this tech, most other fighters can do it as well:
:4mario::4luigi::4bowser::rosalina::4bowserjr::4wario::4diddy::4gaw::4littlemac::4link::4zelda::4ganondorf::4tlink::4zss::4pit::4palutena::4marth::4myfriends::4duckhunt::4kirby::4dedede::4fox::4falco::4pikachu::4charizard::4lucario::4jigglypuff::4greninja::4ness::4rob::4villager::4olimar::4wiifit::4drmario::4darkpit::4lucina::4megaman::4mewtwo::4lucas::4feroy::4corrin::4bayonetta:

The following can get something from the tech, but it does not behave normally:

:4falcon:
Falcon Punch doesn't B-reverse.

:4dk::4littlemac::4samus::4robinm::4pacman:
These just act weird. Robin works normally in the air, but that's about it.

:4metaknight::4sonic::4ryu:
These simply use their Neutral Special attacks with no added effect.

:4peach::4yoshi::4shulk:
These fighters can't do it at all.
Yoshi can do this too. And its kind of viable too.
 

Yumemaru

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Here is a video guide of the tech.


Basic explanation and demonstration for all characters who can do it.
 

Smashchick

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After labbing this C-bounce tech, I've found a lot of useful notes that makes it easier to perform. Of course this is just personal preference though. I've found it easier to perform this thinking of pressing the C-stick in the opposite direction immediatly after pressing L instead of just pressing it at the same time. This little note have made me do the correct input much more instead of doing a grenade. As said this worked for me at least. Another not tooo huge factor is that you flick it like in Perfect Pivoting and not holding the C-stick input. And lastly what I found the most useful which made me go from about 15% of the time making the input correct to about 70 is to have your thumb NEXT to the Cstick instead of having your thumb ON the C-stick. it can be on the tip of the C-stick as well or on the side which I prefer, but it really helps for me. I only focus on the last note though, and not really on the first two.
 

Marrow

Speak softly and carry a Thick Club
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Hi there, I noticed that Mii Fighters weren't mentioned in the original post, so I did my own research to see if c-bouncing worked for them.

:4miibrawl:: Shot Put (1) - Works all three ways, though it's not a ton of extra distance.
Ultimate Uppercut (2) - Slides a short distance, then rolls. (Cancel charge)
Exploding Sidekick (3) - Doesn't work :(

:4miisword:: Tornado Strike (1) - Can be stationary B-Reversed, though no point of doing it with the C-Stick
Shurkien of Light (2) - Doesn't work ):
Blurring Blade (3) - Works all three ways.

:4miigun:: Charge Shot (1) - Like Uppercut, starts the charge animation and rolls. If you don't change direction you can sliding charge, though that doesn't seem useful.
Lazer Blaze (2) - It works, but past the first laser you're not sliding anymore.
Grenade Shot (3) - It works, and fairly well since you can turn around multiple times.

All in all, Gunner gets the most mileage out of the three, in my opinion. Hope this helps! :D
 

Topskunium

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How frame perfect do you need to be with the inputs, and is there an order that these inputs have to be made, however quickly?
 

WondrousMoose

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How frame perfect do you need to be with the inputs, and is there an order that these inputs have to be made, however quickly?
What has been reported is that they have to be done within a frame or two of each other. Exact numbers depending on who's saying it, and I can't test precisely enough to get an answer. Basically, input everything at the same time.
 

Topskunium

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What has been reported is that they have to be done within a frame or two of each other. Exact numbers depending on who's saying it, and I can't test precisely enough to get an answer. Basically, input everything at the same time.
Yeah, I was actually testing it out a moment ago, and I found it to be approximately the same time. Thanks though ;)

Btw, where's Cloud?
 
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Glitchy_

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I'm not sure where to ask this but is this possible with bidou? I don't care if I have to use the second stick but I'd line to keep bidou for PPs and all the movement stuff...

Btw is this just a Wavebounce made easier by using the attack stick or is it something different?
 

Simikins

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I'm not sure where to ask this but is this possible with bidou? I don't care if I have to use the second stick but I'd line to keep bidou for PPs and all the movement stuff...

Btw is this just a Wavebounce made easier by using the attack stick or is it something different?
Simply a wavebounce made easier with the attack stick, and the only way to do it on the ground. I don't know if it's possible with bidou. Experiment.
 

Daymaster

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It should't be; C-bouncing is pressing the Special button at the same time as pressing both forward and back, and if you have C, the stick you use to press back, set to Special you can't use another button to also input Special at the same time. That's the entire premise if Bidou; You press back for one frame because you can't use Special.
 

Simikins

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It should't be; C-bouncing is pressing the Special button at the same time as pressing both forward and back, and if you have C, the stick you use to press back, set to Special you can't use another button to also input Special at the same time. That's the entire premise if Bidou; You press back for one frame because you can't use Special.
Not necessarily using bidou, but just using special stick.
 

[Deuce]

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From videos I've seen, looks like a GC controller is used and shield is pressed lightly and due to the analog nature of the controller it cancels the needles and doesn't activate shield. Would I be able to manage this on a Wii U Pro given its digital nature?
 

Simikins

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From videos I've seen, looks like a GC controller is used and shield is pressed lightly and due to the analog nature of the controller it cancels the needles and doesn't activate shield. Would I be able to manage this on a Wii U Pro given its digital nature?
Yes. It's not the light press that causes the shield to not come up, but just pressing it for less than 7 frames, which is the length of the needle cancel animation.
 
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