Sheik Tech: C-Bounce

WondrousMoose

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#1
Note: this thread uses default GameCube controls (L/R shield, B special, etc.), unless otherwise stated.

This tech was first mentioned on the Sheik board with @TheReflexWonder's video posted in @ tronfox64 tronfox64 's Instant Needle Cancel (INC) thread. Please refer back there for the original discussion and to give them your love.

Introduction
What on earth is C-Bouncing? Well, it's a modified form of wavebouncing, which is a tech which allows the player to jump forward and then snap backward while facing the direction of the initial jump (My Smash Corner made a video covering that here). C-bouncing allows for a similar backward snap but with the awesome ability to be performed on the ground and with arguably simpler inputs.

Bouncing
To perform a C-Bounce, the player must first set the C-stick to Attack and then input :GCCN: + :GCB: at the same time. When performed correctly, a C-Bounce should look very similar to a backward Wavedash in Melee; however, it can only be performed while already moving*.

There are three possible cases of orientation and momentum behavior upon performing this tech. The following will be illustrated as if you are moving to the right:
  • Same Orientation, Reverse Momentum: Input :GCCL: + :GCB: while holding :GCR:
  • Same Orientation, Same Momentum: Input :GCCR: + :GCB: while holding or immediately after releasing:GCR:
  • Opposite Orientation, Same Momentum: Input :GCCL: + :GCB: immediately after releasing :GCR:
*A stationary "C-Bounce" can be performed, but without any momentum, it only behaves as a B-reversal. This is an effective training tool but has little actual use.

Applications
  • Along with the B-Reverse Slide Cancel, Sheik can slide and face in any direction out of a run. This can be used for general mindgames or in conjunction with the INC to perform any jab, tilts, smashes, or specials with only a 7-frame delay. Of course, this requires very fast inputs, but with enough practice, the player should be able to do incredible things.
  • It is also possible to perform a C-bounce to shield, which allows you to alleviate/avoid shield pressure and respond for a counter-attack, though it requires a frame-perfect shield input. This is also the first step to incorporating the INC, as the frame on which you shield is the frame on which you cancel your needles.
  • While more situational than anything, the third variation mentioned above allows for an aerial B-reversal without any shift in momentum.
Other Fighters

While Sheik gets arguably the most from this tech, most other fighters can do it as well:
:4mario::4luigi::4bowser::rosalina::4bowserjr::4wario::4diddy::4gaw::4littlemac::4link::4zelda::4ganondorf::4tlink::4zss::4pit::4palutena::4marth::4myfriends::4duckhunt::4kirby::4dedede::4fox::4falco::4pikachu::4charizard::4lucario::4jigglypuff::4greninja::4ness::4rob::4villager::4olimar::4wiifit::4drmario::4darkpit::4lucina::4megaman::4mewtwo::4lucas::4feroy::4corrin::4bayonetta:

The following can get something from the tech, but it does not behave normally:

:4falcon:
Falcon Punch doesn't B-reverse.

:4dk::4littlemac::4samus::4robinm::4pacman:
These just act weird. Robin works normally in the air, but that's about it.

:4metaknight::4sonic::4ryu::4cloud:
These simply use their Neutral Special attacks with no added effect.

:4peach::4yoshi::4shulk:
These fighters can't do it at all.

Notes
  • If used while running, the inputs must be made after the dash animation has completed
  • C-bouncing is only possible with the C-Stick set to Attack and does not work with the New 3DS
  • Most of this thread refers to grounded C-Bouncing, but it can be performed just as well in the air and even seems to have more of a momentum shift than a standard Wavebounce
  • The C-stick and Special button have to be performed within two frames of each other, meaning that there must be less than 1/30 of a second between the two inputs
  • Many players set :GCLT:, :GCRT: or :GCZ: to Special, as actually pressing ":GCB: + :GCCN:" without using a claw grip can be difficult
  • Directional C-stick inputs include diagonals (:GCCDL: or :GCCUL: will work instead of :GCCL:). :GCCU: or :GCCD: does not change orientation or momentum
  • When executing a retreating C-bounce, Sheik actually performs a B-reversal for a brief moment but immediately reverses that, maintaining the shift in momentum from the first and the orientation from the second.

GIFs
Example of all three grounded forms:
http://gfycat.com/RichCharmingHalcyon

Courtesy of @ tronfox64 tronfox64 :

Ledge Mind Games into TheifNade Fish:
gfycat.com/RareLivelyBats

Ledge Mind Games into Fish:
http://www.gfycat.com/ConsiderateMiserableArrowana

Stage Hugging Low Needles (Combos into Bouncing Fish):
http://www.gfycat.com/FlawedMindlessHarrierhawk

Stage Hugging Vanishes (with different variations in depth):
http://www.gfycat.com/AdventurousHandmadeBasilisk

Stage Hugging Bouncing Fish:
http://www.gfycat.com/KlutzyAppropriateAlabamamapturtle

Platform Mind Games 1:
http://www.gfycat.com/ReflectingMeagerDowitcher

Platform Mind Games 2:
http://www.gfycat.com/DigitalInbornHypacrosaurus

Aerial Juking:
http://www.gfycat.com/BigheartedCommonChickadee

Quickly and easily go under almost any stage!:
http://www.gfycat.com/PassionateIlliterateBirdofparadise
 
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MOI-ARI

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#3
Nice I've been trying to WaveBounce grounded for awhile now, I couldn't seem to get this down. Should be easier now thanks.

Im more eager to try this with other characters. ^^
 
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WondrousMoose

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#4
Nice I've been trying to WaveBounce grounded for awhile now, I couldn't seem to get this down. Should be easier now thanks.

Is it possible to WaveBounce Grounded with normal controls? I don't think I've ever landed it
As I mentioned in the post, its possible but not at all worth the effort. I recommend changing the trigger that you don't use or Z to Special.
 

pokio55

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#5
Can we get some gfys of sheik preforming a c-bounce? like you have in tronfox's INC thread.
 
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WondrousMoose

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#7
@ WondrousMoose WondrousMoose Feel free to use any of the gif links from the INC thread. Ill also post a couple new links later tonight. Can't record for a few hours atm.
My internet situation sucks right now; I only have my phone or Starbucks, if I have the time. I'll just recycle GIFs until I can do something myself.
 

tronfox64

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#8
Here are some other applications and uses for C-Bouncing. I know you said you wanted to focus on the ground @ WondrousMoose WondrousMoose , but this tech is so flexible in the air as well that I really think it deserves some attention.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------Recovering from the Ledge--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ledge Mind Games into TheifNade Fish:
gfycat.com/RareLivelyBats

Ledge Mind Games into Fish:
http://www.gfycat.com/ConsiderateMiserableArrowana

---------------------------------------------------------Edge guarding against opponents who recover low--------------------------------------------------------

Stage Hugging Low Needles (Combos into Bouncing Fish ofc):
http://www.gfycat.com/FlawedMindlessHarrierhawk

Stage Hugging Vanishes (with different variations in depth):
http://www.gfycat.com/AdventurousHandmadeBasilisk

Stage Hugging Bouncing Fish (Can also mix it up by bouncing off the stage depending on the map):
http://www.gfycat.com/KlutzyAppropriateAlabamamapturtle

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Platform Dropping---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Platform Mind Games 1:
http://www.gfycat.com/ReflectingMeagerDowitcher

Platform Mind Games 2:
http://www.gfycat.com/DigitalInbornHypacrosaurus

----------------------------------------------------------------------Avoid being Juggled from Below----------------------------------------------------------------------

Aerial Juking:
http://www.gfycat.com/BigheartedCommonChickadee


---------------------------------------------------------------------Bonus: Quickly Go under Stages!---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quickly and easily go under almost any stage! (Works on Battlefield and Final Destination too!):
http://www.gfycat.com/PassionateIlliterateBirdofparadise

Note: Some of these can also be done with a regular wavebounce in the air, but for some reason Sheik gets more horizontal momentum out of a C-Bounce than a standard wavebounce, and she keeps her (typically better) forward facing direction.
 
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WondrousMoose

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#9
SOSM C-Bounce (awesome SOSM) seems to happen with any C-stick input except backward. Can anyone else confirm? Also, what do you all think of the acronyms?

Someone else reply so I don't have to double post Edit: I've tested C-Bouncing with the New 3DS C-stick, and I've only been able to throw out grenades, sometimes B-reversing them. I don't suppose it works; if someone else will test and confirm, I'll add to the OP.
 
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tronfox64

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#10
SOSM C-Bounce (awesome SOSM) seems to happen with any C-stick input except backward. Can anyone else confirm? Also, what do you all think of the acronyms?

Someone else reply so I don't have to double post Edit: I've tested C-Bouncing with the New 3DS C-stick, and I've only been able to throw out grenades, sometimes B-reversing them. I don't suppose it works; if someone else will test and confirm, I'll add to the OP.
I think the whole reason C-Bounce works on Wii U is due to the oddly programmed properties of the C-Stick in this game. This is probably due to the fact that they gave us multiple options to set C-Stick to, thus needing some sort of different code from previous installments where the only option would be smash attacks. AFAIK, Smash 3DS can't have it's C-Stick remapped to different functions, and thus it probably acts much more similar to older games than the Wii U version's C-Stick.

This is just my best guess though. Fortunately, I pretty much only play the Wii U version
 

WondrousMoose

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#11
@ tronfox64 tronfox64 , can you supply some C-bounce>INC gifs? I'd love to see some of those applications.

Oh, and the url on that last gif is incredible. I'm imagining some beautiful bird staring at Dr. Seuss and just trying - TRYING - to figure out what's going on. Someone needs to draw that.
 
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tronfox64

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#12
@ WondrousMoose WondrousMoose I can try to perform some tonight, but frankly I'm not very good at putting the two together yet. Regular INC's alone are already pretty demanding. What makes it tough is that the INC needs to be done within like ~4 frames or so of initiating C-Bounce. I'm decent at doing regular Needle Canceled attacks out of a C-Bounce though, which are still very viable. I'll try my best though.

This feels like Naruto's Rasengan training lol. I'm gonna need a shadow clone for all these inputs...

Edit: I've successfully pulled it off 2 times in around an hour+ of practice. I'm not sure human thumbs were built to press C-Stick twice within 4 frames while also returning the stick to neutral. Gonna need more time..
 
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WondrousMoose

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#13
@ WondrousMoose WondrousMoose I can try to perform some tonight, but frankly I'm not very good at putting the two together yet. Regular INC's alone are already pretty demanding. What makes it tough is that the INC needs to be done within like ~4 frames or so of initiating C-Bounce. I'm decent at doing regular Needle Canceled attacks out of a C-Bounce though, which are still very viable. I'll try my best though.

This feels like Naruto's Rasengan training lol. I'm gonna need a shadow clone for all these inputs...
Or just a wise, bearded man behind you yelling, "Again!"
 

Danimal197

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#15
4 hours of practice can now do about 60% of the time. /cries.

Also @ tronfox64 tronfox64 I accidentally did what you were trying just out of habit of doing the normal INC. haha
 
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Kel

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#16
Wait, I cannot seem to get this C bounce thing. According to Deku Tree you let go of the stick and let it reset to neutal before hitting B + C stick. According to reflex you don't let go of the stick at all. What am I missing?

If I don't let go of the stick I just get grenade.

If I let go of the stick after a run and then hit B + C stick away I just b reverse (like sheiks do when playing needle neutral game).

What am I doing wrong to get these results?

Thanks.
 
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#17
Wait, I cannot seem to get this C bounce thing. According to Deku Tree you let go of the stick and let it reset to neutal before hitting B + C stick. According to reflex you don't let go of the stick at all. What am I missing?

If I don't let go of the stick I just get grenade.

If I let go of the stick after a run and then hit B + C stick away I just b reverse (like sheiks do when playing needle neutral game).

What am I doing wrong to get these results?

Thanks.
Set a trigger to special. Reflex's method is right, but you have to do the input pretty precisely. What's probably happening is that your B and C Stick inputs don't line up due to the movement of the C Stick, thus causing a B-reverse.
 

WondrousMoose

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#18
Wait, I cannot seem to get this C bounce thing. According to Deku Tree you let go of the stick and let it reset to neutal before hitting B + C stick. According to reflex you don't let go of the stick at all. What am I missing?

If I don't let go of the stick I just get grenade.

If I let go of the stick after a run and then hit B + C stick away I just b reverse (like sheiks do when playing needle neutral game).

What am I doing wrong to get these results?

Thanks.
It's recommended that you set a trigger to special because B + C-stick is a pain. What Tree was referring to with returning to neutral was the Instant Needle Cancel, which is a totally separate tech. You can input it after releasing the stick, but the behavior will be different; I outlined the three possible results in the OP. The two have to be pressed at exactly the same time, so it takes some getting used to.

Of course, I'm assuming that you're playing the Wii U version, as this tech is impossible on the 3DS.
 

Danimal197

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#19
Does anyone know how far the cstick has to be pressed in order to register the input? I only successfuly c-bounce about 60% of the time after hours of practice...
 

Solid411

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#20
Wait, I cannot seem to get this C bounce thing. According to Deku Tree you let go of the stick and let it reset to neutal before hitting B + C stick. According to reflex you don't let go of the stick at all. What am I missing?

If I don't let go of the stick I just get grenade.

If I let go of the stick after a run and then hit B + C stick away I just b reverse (like sheiks do when playing needle neutral game).

What am I doing wrong to get these results?

Thanks.
Same thing happened to me until I changed my C stick to "attack" instead of "smash attack." It seems you have to use C stick for tilts if you want to use this tech.
 

pokio55

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#21
Does anyone know how far the cstick has to be pressed in order to register the input? I only successfuly c-bounce about 60% of the time after hours of practice...
Try pushing the cstick alone and see how far you have to bring it to let the game know that you have inputted something with the cstick. Lets say I push the cstick half way to the edge of the rim(lol) then the game would recieve that as an input (This is just an example so dont quote me!) :] I hope this makes sense
 

WondrousMoose

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#22
Same thing happened to me until I changed my C stick to "attack" instead of "smash attack." It seems you have to use C stick for tilts if you want to use this tech.
No, it works with the C-stick set to Attack or Smash Attack. I don't know if the behavior is exactly the same for the two, but it at least works.

Does anyone know how far the cstick has to be pressed in order to register the input? I only successfuly c-bounce about 60% of the time after hours of practice...
I've found that the harder you do the inputs, the more consistently the tech works. If you're slowly pressing the buttons, the fact that they're analog inputs means that you're probably not registering at exactly the same time. What button are you using for Special?
 

Infobesity

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#23
This is crazy hard and I don't know of even worth learning cause it's all dependent on muscle memory through trial and error.

Edit:
The most consistent way I've done it (6 in a row) is to flick light and fast, including the shoulder button. More of a sweep for the shoulder button.
 
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pokio55

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#24
Hello. I am having a problem with trying to attenpt this tech. Anytime I try to do it, I just do a regular needle cancel. Is it because I am doing it too late? Any input would be appreciated. Thank you.
 

Solid411

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#25
No, it works with the C-stick set to Attack or Smash Attack. I don't know if the behavior is exactly the same for the two, but it at least works.
What do you mean by behavior? Have you tested this method yourself? With Cstick set to Smash, Sheik does the Wavebounce but faces the opposite direction at the end of it. It works normally when I have it set to Attack.
 

WondrousMoose

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#26
What do you mean by behavior? Have you tested this method yourself? With Cstick set to Smash, Sheik does the Wavebounce but faces the opposite direction at the end of it. It works normally when I have it set to Attack.
The slide, as well as the direction you face both during and after, are the same whether the C-stick is set to Attack or Smash Attack. What I'm saying is that I'm not sure if the bounce is further/faster/whatever depending on the setting. As I've seen, they appear to be identical.
 

Danimal197

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#27
Thanks for the responses, I was talking to Denti about the tech, and he looked at my hands and said, you are already clawing the controller, why not just use your right index finger to hit b instead of using a shoulder button?

My consistency like tripled with no practice the second I started using b over a trigger. Ofc, if you don't already claw, this may be more difficult.
 

WondrousMoose

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#28
Thanks for the responses, I was talking to Denti about the tech, and he looked at my hands and said, you are already clawing the controller, why not just use your right index finger to hit b instead of using a shoulder button?

My consistency like tripled with no practice the second I started using b over a trigger. Ofc, if you don't already claw, this may be more difficult.
Derp. I'll make a note about different ways of holding the controller. Thanks for that.
 

Diabolical PIe

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#31
This technique along with the pivot mechanics of this game have finally convinced me to give this game a try. Already have pivots learned from Melee, and this timing looks similar. Gonna see how far I can push movement with combinations of this, perfect pivots, dashes, dash cancels, and tiny dash dances. Seems like something that'd be fun to grind out and play around with.

Edit: Also, out of curiosity, is this applicable at all to other characters with charagable neutral b's? Like DK or Lucario for example? Or is this tech Sheik-specific?
 
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WondrousMoose

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#39
It's been pointed out to me that this is not working with the C-stick set to Smash. I'm sure that it worked at one point, so it may have been patched out. If anyone can get it to work, please let me know, but I've updated the post to reflect this for now.
 
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_Tree

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#40
Had five minutes of free time so thought I'd take a look.
I taught myself how to C-bounce on command and I couldn't pull this off once with C-stick set to smashes. I think it's safe to say that this can't be done with a Smash stick now.
 
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