Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Laudandus]

You don't get invulnerability when you do this, but if you just drop lower and jump back onto the stage you can do a no impact land (landing at the height of your jump) and act instantly after landing. This messes with people and gets you free grabs

 

[WeirdBobby]

What kind of grab follow-ups should I be using on Marth at low percents?

 

[Laudandus]

Regrab on DI away, utilt on DI in, there's a Kirbykaze post somewhere

 

[WeirdBobby]

Lol I just saw the huge post on sheiks dthrow in the directory. Muh bad.

I just really hate Marth.

 

[Zeppeli]

I have the 20xx spacies set to shine after their respective tech choice so I'm assuming I'm hitting them before they're able to input a true CC.

It's different if they eat the blow and shine compared to if they cc downwards and shine. cc removes hitstun and its very possible that they can take the blow and shine you. tell me how it is when you test it vs a real person please.

 

[cisyphus]

Please remember that I qualified that entire comment with "it feels like" (exactly like that with the italics) as well as " I'll have to test it at the next smashfest/tournament I go to but it's really consistent from what I've seen." So cut the sass. I never sold it to be concrete and I never sold it to be a catch all even if it were concrete. The key thing here (and the base of my assumption previously mentioned) is that a TRUE crouch cancel and ASDI down are NOT the same thing, and if the 20xx Fox inputs shine on the soonest frame possible and that u-tilt still hits him, it's fair to assume that they're not inputting a true CC. The point of conjecture therefore is whether the ASDI down (i.e. holding down but not actually crouching) negatively affects the utilt (and for how long). The answer to that, with my quick and dirty test of CC fox vs. ASDI down fox is that utilt will knock down fox at around 70%. The secondary dimension to consider is the fact that players are accustomed to certain timings, and the effectual jab of the u-tilt can throw that timing off and cause them to do something else, which is where I get the idea of using it more exclusively as a mindgame or mixup. BUt again, I can only do so much on my own and recognize the need to test it out in a realistic setting.

It's the same kind of thing as jabbing Falcon out of the downthrow. I catch my opponents with it all the time: they land and I get a free punish because they tried to tech and missed the timing because of the jab.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

Fast Falling Aerials vs Not Fast Falling Aerials?

Getting that latest possible nair out on shield or not shield, is it safe for the grab?

does nair out shield beat shine grab, shine falco/fox dair (what if they fade back?), shine falco/fox nair?

Aerial needles without canceling on a platform (eg. using them on FD), tips and tricks?

Fast flashy movement vs slow paced walk vs run-stop-crouch approaches, which one instills a greater fear in your opponents' heart?

 

[Laudandus]

Fast falling vs not fast falling is situational / mixuppy but generally fast falling is better.

Latest nair on shield is safe vs grab, you can spot dodge. I'm not sure if you can also dash away

Frame perfect nair oos beats shine grab, ask Sung about all the other ones

Full hop charge needles -> mixup whether you cancel them is generally good on FD as long as you maintain enough space that your opponent can't run directly underneath you.

I've been thinking a lot about your last question, I've been thinking about switching between them often since whenever I switch between them right now I seem to fairly easily win the next couple of exchanges. This is something that makes me think not switching them up more is a really big hole in my game, since if a switch always works it generally means that most of the time when I'm not switching I should actually be mixing it up between them.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

Ah I meant that if I could get a grab from the latest possible nair.

Yeah, it has to be a mix up between the three. I am just not sure about the cues to watch out for and the ideal situations for each.

 

[EddyBearr]

Back to up-tilt: I recall having been shined and grabbed after the first hit of up-tilt.

Here's Sheik grabbing Sheik after 1 hit of up-tilt: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN7B6wTeM9w#t=5m20s

 

[SonuvaBeach]

I've been thinking a lot about your last question, I've been thinking about switching between them often since whenever I switch between them right now I seem to fairly easily win the next couple of exchanges. This is something that makes me think not switching them up more is a really big hole in my game, since if a switch always works it generally means that most of the time when I'm not switching I should actually be mixing it up between them.

I'm in the same boat as you. I tend to always opt for more flashy movement styles, but whenever I mix up to a slower walk/crouch based game it appears to work for a bit. Currently working on developing a better understanding of the advantages/disadvantages of each and when they are appropriate and why. Will get back when I have more concrete info other than "I feel...".

Back to up-tilt: I recall having been shined and grabbed after the first hit of up-tilt.

Here's Sheik grabbing Sheik after 1 hit of up-tilt: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN7B6wTeM9w#t=5m20s

Yes, @ cisyphus , up-tilt doesn't work to cover tech in place unless you're playing newer players most times. People with experience vs sheik will just CC the first hit --> shine.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

A "feel" can be a more intuitive way of explaining these instances. Especially when they might very well depend on the conditioning you have put on your opponent and the general state of mind they might be in.

 

[Zeppeli]

snip

It's the same kind of thing as jabbing Falcon out of the downthrow. I catch my opponents with it all the time: they land and I get a free punish because they tried to tech and missed the timing because of the jab.

Honestly don't know what you're getting at except for the fact that CC and fake CC are different. why I was initially skeptical is because people tend to cc downwards my upsmashes at low %s and they'd always reset into some knockdown situation.
btw falcon can SDI up and avoid jab resets in post-non tech situations so you have to cover the option with something else

Also, the posts above just confirmed that the tech does not unfortunately work

 

[cisyphus]

I'm not talking about jab resets, but simply jabbing them at higher percents before they hit the ground to tech. But in any situation, yeah, Falcon can SDI up; but he has to be conscious of that before doing it: you can't react to something as fast as jab. Moreover, I'll mix it up further with a double jab which tends to net me a regrab. It's not frame-tight at all, but it does work. Everything in this game has some degree of fallibility: even fox u-throw u-air gets mitigated by SDI. We're not playing perfectly, and we're not playing against perfect opponents. The thought is more that one can construct scenarios where these weaknesses are irrelevant because the opponent couldn't properly react to it: that's the core of a mindgame.

I can't say with certainty, but I think the video Eddy posted isn't quite the same thing: Green Sheik was knocked down from f-tilt and missed the tech. Blue Sheik therefore shields next to Green Sheik to allow for a shield grab on the standing or attack animations, and intending to wavedash OOS to catch any roll options. Green Sheik did the standing animation into utilt, which Blue sheik reacted poorly to: you can see him drop his shield before getting hit, meaning it probably went for the shield grab. The Fake CC therefore comes from the down throw input, based on how Blue Sheik opted not to pummel at all (Sheiks that pummel tend to do so at any opportunity). Blue Sheik realized that something was off because he wasn't throwing, and THEN went for the regrab.

I feel as though it's different because the utilt is defensively used rather than offensively used, and therefore the options (and thus, the leeway for reaction) given to the receiver are inherently greater than those of the utilter.

So yeah, CC—be it true or fake—tends to beat out utilt, but there certainly would be situations where the opponent wouldn't be CCing in a techchase that this would be applicable: perhaps with jab or jump or f-tilt, what have you. That could certainly take hold if a spacie player loses faith in get-up shine as a defensive maneuver (by Sheik baiting it out and punishing it). It's good to get feedback, though, 'cause I was pretty enamored by this before and didn't perceive the clear weakness to CC it had.

 

[Laudandus]

I'm in the same boat as you. I tend to always opt for more flashy movement styles, but whenever I mix up to a slower walk/crouch based game it appears to work for a bit. Currently working on developing a better understanding of the advantages/disadvantages of each and when they are appropriate and why. Will get back when I have more concrete info other than "I feel...".

I think any more specifics about how you feel about this would be helpful. It just seems to me like the most important thing to think about right now; I'm currently suspecting that switching up timings and speeds is the most important thing separating Mango from other players (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzcIOB8aRbk#t=4m04s is the example I'm most thinking of, along with Shroomed telling me a bunch of times that Mango's timings and move choices are really weird and make him feel like a scrub).

 

[CeLL]

What's the best way to punish a missed tech after dthrowing a spacie at percents too high to jab reset?

 

[cisyphus]

- Double jab to practically anything if you notice they react to the single jab
- Single jab works for this too
- Dashdance out of get up attack range

Boost grab roll away
JC grab roll in or get up or attack​

Down Smash if it'll send them off the edge
Up Smash if they're at mid percents so you can combo
F-tilt -> fair if they're a bit higher
Tilt -> Dash Cancel -> u-tilt -> Fair? I think that's a thing.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

the best ways imo (you don't need to be super tricky unless you're late on these punishes, then that's another problem)

dsmash (if they're closer to the edge of the stage)

upsmash (if they're in the middle of the stage or so, then you can get some cool combos and fairs and ****)

 

[The Lemon]

I need some help on the ICs matchup.

I feel pretty good in neutral. I don't get grabbed that much, and I get a lot of pokes in, but I realize I don't really know what I'm doing on the offensive end besides getting pokes. Any tips on punishing/comboing them? What should my shorter terms goals be that would lead to kills? And as a bonus, it would also be nice to get some tips on fighting Sopo.

 

[cisyphus]

Needle a lot

Go for the desyncs

Fair/bair to KO Nana once you get it

Punish Popo if he tries to save her​

U air to KO Sopo​

Don't grab

Unless you can d-throw -> uair popo
Or back throw off stage​

Don't get grabbed

Not even against sopo​

Keep your movement crisp

Utilize platform tech

Learn to shield drop

platform camp with needles and shield drop​

Ban FD

 

[SacaSuMoto]

How can you be confident that your grab will grab?

It will not be spotdodged, rolledout of, or when theyŕe not in shield that they will not outspace it or that you wont be jabbed.

I havent gotten the timing down for grabbing a spotdodge.

edit: lol didnt realize the characters have the same frame data on spotdodge

2-15 invincible out 22 Frames
but most importantly uhh grabs come out at 7-8? so probably the best timing is to do the grab around when the first specs of dust start to clear?

 

[cisyphus]

I'm confused on the context for Saca's post. Regardless, I'd say the timing is more when the dust reaches its apex—it's best to fall into that 15-22 range since they have no available actions in that period (shine for spaces, another spotdodge, etc).

 

[SacaSuMoto]

I was going to say apex as well, but doesnt that mean you grab when the last specs of dust start to disappear? by that time the move is already ending and they can act out.

Assuming you have the timing for grabbing the spotdodge down, how do you get them to spotdodge? (how do you put fear in their hearts and doubt in their minds)

A noob player will always try to do actions as fast as possible. So those people are easy to predict that they will more likely spotdodge ASAP after a tech roll and you chased them, theyŕe already scared because they are still green with their self control.

However, a decent player wont spotdodge just because he messed up or because his shield was hit. He will sit in his shield and play the game of chicken waiting for you to grab (of course he can also just smartly avoid the bad situation in other ways). So the ¨answer¨ is to mixup timings (in your hits and grabs), but doesnt that ultimately mean that you have to mess up a grab once or twice.. get punished.. in order for you to get a grab later on? So then how do you get a clean grab?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Say I am Sheik, get grabbed by Falcon at 80% on Pokemon Stadium (neutral transformation) where Falcon is facing in towards the stage and he grabs me on the far right side of the stage. I DI the down-throw down and away from Falcon. When I get out of hit-stun, is it optimal to air-dodge down into the ground instead of jumping?

I see a lot of people tend to jump right after getting out of hitstun in situations like these, and I'm wondering why players don't opt to just air-dodge down onto the stage. I feel like using your double jump in this scenario makes you more vulnerable than when you are on the ground. I also see that using nair is sometimes good right when you get out of hit-stun as a counter attack, but I feel it's risky cause you might end up trading with an upair or knee.

I'd just like to know if air-dodging here is a good idea or not, and an explanation as to why or why not.

 

[cisyphus]

I'm thinking it's because you're in tumble out of the down throw, which means you'd have to wiggle out before you airdodge. Granted you can also jump and immediately air dodge, but yeah. It might just be due to laziness.

 

[Naps4Tor]

Hey, new to the community and wanted to get some advice on how to get my reverse needle cancels more crisp? I often find myself with my chain out and missing an edge-guard. Any tips?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Hey, new to the community and wanted to get some advice on how to get my reverse needle cancels more crisp? I often find myself with my chain out and missing an edge-guard. Any tips?

I've been messing around with this lately, and the key to not having the chain come out is to just lightly tap in the direction you want to face when you needle cancel. Don't hold it. Just tap it.

 

[CeLL]

Hey, new to the community and wanted to get some advice on how to get my reverse needle cancels more crisp? I often find myself with my chain out and missing an edge-guard. Any tips?

You jump off the right edge, facing right. Hit left on the control stick, then let it return to neutral, then press B (then L/R obviously). It has to be pretty fast, but if it doesn't return to neutral you will get chain.

 

[cisyphus]

Turnaround B moves work because you've introduced a different momentum, so you don't necessarily need to be quick, just precise. IIRC you can input the direction way before you actually press B and it'll still work, but don't quote me on it just yet. You don't need an edge, either. Once you get the input down, find times to use it in situations outside of edgehogs: RNC fair/bair comes in handy in the neutral or in combos, use it to recover, use it to edgeguard outside of grabbing ledge, et al.

NOW THEN: I was toying around with PM Sheik and found myself starting to grasp how to turn around up B, but I can't quite find a consistent input that allows it to occur. Is there anyone that's gotten proficient at this and can describe it well enough that I can take it into 20xx and grind it out?

 

[CeLL]

NOW THEN: I was toying around with PM Sheik and found myself starting to grasp how to turn around up B, but I can't quite find a consistent input that allows it to occur. Is there anyone that's gotten proficient at this and can describe it well enough that I can take it into 20xx and grind it out?

You mean this? http://smashboards.com/posts/10146397/

 

[cisyphus]

Precisely, yes! I was aware of Axe's post, but I hadn't actually taken the time to read it. His description is so simple! I get it every time already, hah. Now it's just a matter of implementing it.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Precisely, yes! I was aware of Axe's post, but I hadn't actually taken the time to read it. His description is so simple! I get it every time already, hah. Now it's just a matter of implementing it.

You'll have to show me how you can do this so consistently. I didn't put much practice into it, but I don't think I was doing it right.
Regardless though, honestly you should not be put into that situation very often. It has been a very long time since I've needed to do this up-b, likely because I've become so consistent with rising needle turnarounds to up b.

 

[cisyphus]

I'm not as consistent as I should be with rising RNC, but that probably is honestly easier to do under pressure. What I do is just smash input the UpB, return the stick to neutral, and then just ever so slightly input the direction I want. It's less than even a walk input I think.

 

[EddyBearr]

I'm not as consistent as I should be with rising RNC, but that probably is honestly easier to do under pressure. What I do is just smash input the UpB, return the stick to neutral, and then just ever so slightly input the direction I want. It's less than even a walk input I think.

Yeah, this is exactly it. Establish your direction, let it return to neutral, then very slightly tilt it just before the explosion.

 

[CrazyCupofJoe]

So in this situation what would be a safe way to secure the kill on fox if I cant get off stage in time? Is there really true way to get the kill if they go for the sweetspot? If they dont get the sweetspot and land just above the ledge, I've tried D-tilting them and just got burned and it would be unfavorable because I would lose my stage position. Can a low F-air cover below the ledge?

 

[cisyphus]

WD smash turn WD for fastest ledge grab, then punish their landing if they go above or bair/reverse fair if they go straight up??

 

[SacaSuMoto]

jump Needle the attempt to sweetspot the ledge. (at this range it looks like they might have to ride the wall in order to get a cleaner sweetspot.)

if you hit them, grab the ledge (turn around wavedash back) and now you can nsta jump bairs/nairs (to regrab the ledge) to keep them up-bing, until you rack up some % so they can die.

in a stage like BF, then you can maybe get them with a drop bair or bairs, hoping that they get sent under BF so they can't upb to sweetspot anymore.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I would go for grabbing the ledge and nairing from the ledge onto the stage while also being invincible. It doesn't look like needles will hit, and Fox might try to ride the wall. You nair just to be safe.

 

[Jimmology]

As Sheik, is there a specific direction I should DI to get out of Captain Falcon's chain grab? I usually just keep getting caught going both backwards and forwards. To be honest, I'm not ever sure if there's a way to get out of it without doing the classic switch up were you go back twice then forward once or vice versa. Anyways, just wondering if there was something that I am missing that will be a benefactor to my escape of Falcon's chain grab.

 

[EddyBearr]

How fast is a PC-drop with fast-fall to ledge, or a PC-drop with aerial to smack them?

As Sheik, is there a specific direction I should DI to get out of Captain Falcon's chain grab? I usually just keep getting caught going both backwards and forwards. To be honest, I'm not ever sure if there's a way to get out of it without doing the classic switch up were you go back twice then forward once or vice versa. Anyways, just wondering if there was something that I am missing that will be a benefactor to my escape of Falcon's chain grab.

DI away and down. You can always tech the ground or jump before a regrab with proper DI.

You probably just need to practice DI'ing it more. Remember that TDI has to be perpendicular to the would-be line of trajectory.