john!
Smash Hero
KK, why would someone short hop in that situation instead of simply waiting? if you short hop then you're forced to land, giving falco the opportunity to (for example) tech roll behind you right after it's too late for you to bair.
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If you identify he's not doing anything then you hit him (with slap or air needle). On occasion you may actually want to hit him with an aerial because it does like 12%+ instead of 7-8% like one of her ground moves, doesn't leave you as open to reversals (such as sidestep > shine) if you botch it, etc.
@ Demna: This board is for Melee: Sheik, not Project M: Sheik. They are completely different characters in completely different games. My best advice for anyone in that game though is to complain that your character is underpowered loudly and, if possible, unintelligibly. If you do that with enough regularity, whatever you were having problems with usually goes away in a few months. Hope that helps!
you might wanna check out the project m boards for that
Yeah, I intended on asking it there. I mistakenly asked here, my apologies.
Any tips regarding Sheik's recovery? What is the most efficient way of learning shino stalling?
rofl kk
shino stalling is p. simple just hit back, slide your stick up and hit b then aim for the ledge
Don't just do it for 8 minutes though since fox'll do that mean wavedash back and take the ledge from you and you'll die
shino stalling is p. simple just hit back, slide your stick up and hit b then aim for the ledge
Don't just do it for 8 minutes though since fox'll do that mean wavedash back and take the ledge from you and you'll die
Swedish Delight
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2010
- Messages
- 30
Are there any cheap stable strategies I could fall back on as sheik? For these two matches, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-COF0TT1o4&feature=c4-overview&list=UU6iX-QsjwZYt6VvepoH2zZw and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoozQOC_1Tw&feature=c4-overview&list=UU6iX-QsjwZYt6VvepoH2zZw the hardest part was switching playstyles so often throughout the sets. Or should I just switch to playing jigglypuff, since I've almost played sheik for a year, and it seems that people suck against jiggz
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I thought learning how to play differently with the character and expand your repertoire was part of the fun of this game >.>
edit:
Okay, I watched the matches a bit more closely and I think I understand the question a bit better. There are of course certain strategies you could use to minimize your need for stylistic adjustments. But to implement these strategies requires you actually know how to do them. So either way you've some learning to do because as it stands... your move selection is very, very narrow.
Because you're sticking to such a small part of her moveset, you're naturally limiting what you can do in situations that come up. This narrows your punishment options and even your zoning tools significantly. It probably feels like you're making huge adjustments in your attack timings a lot or are constantly being forced to reposition when you feel Teczero is making even the slightest movement adjustment. And to some degree that's probably true but more because you're trying to figure out how you can fit an option your comfortable with into a situation rather than doing something more appropriate.
edit:
Okay, I watched the matches a bit more closely and I think I understand the question a bit better. There are of course certain strategies you could use to minimize your need for stylistic adjustments. But to implement these strategies requires you actually know how to do them. So either way you've some learning to do because as it stands... your move selection is very, very narrow.
Because you're sticking to such a small part of her moveset, you're naturally limiting what you can do in situations that come up. This narrows your punishment options and even your zoning tools significantly. It probably feels like you're making huge adjustments in your attack timings a lot or are constantly being forced to reposition when you feel Teczero is making even the slightest movement adjustment. And to some degree that's probably true but more because you're trying to figure out how you can fit an option your comfortable with into a situation rather than doing something more appropriate.
Alright, let's assume you're using Up-B directly above the ledge. If you simply press down, you'll miss the edge and SD. After getting into the UpB animation (above the ledge), I press down then press Up and end up grabbing the edge; however, I'm not consistent. Any advice on how to perform it more correctly?rofl kk
shino stalling is p. simple just hit back, slide your stick up and hit b then aim for the ledge
Don't just do it for 8 minutes though since fox'll do that mean wavedash back and take the ledge from you and you'll die
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Grab ledge.
8 Frames later, press down.
One frame later, hold up, and press b.
Hold down as long as you are in the "direction determination part" of the up b.
Return the controlstick to neutral, that'll cause you to grab the ledge.
Repeat from the top.
If you hold down for too long, you'll fly past the stage. Free charity!
If you don't hold down long enough, you'll fly upwards. Nearly free charity.
If you waste too many frames, your invincibility will run out, which is somewhat free charity.
If you end up messing up any of this, you need to practice more. Melee is a hard game
8 Frames later, press down.
One frame later, hold up, and press b.
Hold down as long as you are in the "direction determination part" of the up b.
Return the controlstick to neutral, that'll cause you to grab the ledge.
Repeat from the top.
If you hold down for too long, you'll fly past the stage. Free charity!
If you don't hold down long enough, you'll fly upwards. Nearly free charity.
If you waste too many frames, your invincibility will run out, which is somewhat free charity.
If you end up messing up any of this, you need to practice more. Melee is a hard game
SyphiliS
Smash Cadet
@Demna, I've recently learned to shino stall consistently myself. What I've found works best/easiest for me is to press back (away) instead of down to get off the ledge. Then, press up+B right after, hold down and LET GO before you *poof* and you will automatically grab the ledge and not SD.
Swedish Delight
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2010
- Messages
- 30
Ah yea I haven't played against anything other than falco or marth in a while, and that was my first time ever playing against IC's. I guess so far all I can do right now is play more often against other characters.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I feel like the most direct example of people using reaction windows is when edgeguarding. Most people do this (position themselves to be able to react to, and punish, certain chioces within a certain time interval) instinctively while edgeguarding.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I chain grab Yoshi on principle.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Who are you playing against?
The MU against Sheik is pretty simple, you're probably not having much problem with the microinteractions(things like not knowing what to get off of grab), you probably need to focus on the positions you put yourself in, and exploiting patterns/eliminating your patterns. Everything else you should be able to pick up from playing one game against Yoshi(he can DJ t turn around quickly, if you space weak attacks terribly he can counter with his DJ, he can shield drop faster than other characters and he can grab the ledge quickly.)
The MU against Sheik is pretty simple, you're probably not having much problem with the microinteractions(things like not knowing what to get off of grab), you probably need to focus on the positions you put yourself in, and exploiting patterns/eliminating your patterns. Everything else you should be able to pick up from playing one game against Yoshi(he can DJ t turn around quickly, if you space weak attacks terribly he can counter with his DJ, he can shield drop faster than other characters and he can grab the ledge quickly.)
milligraham
Smash Apprentice
I typically play Falco but I think I'm converting into a Sheik player. So far I like the feel of playing as Sheik and can wavedash A LOT more consistently than with Falco for some reason. I know I still have a lot to learn and to improve.
I was curious about which stages are considered good or bad for Sheik and why?
I was curious about which stages are considered good or bad for Sheik and why?
The Lemon
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2011
- Messages
- 43
I'm what I would consider an "average" smash player (usually goes around 2-2 at tourneys), and live with friends that like the game, but not enough to learn "too much tech." So I've taught them how to shield grab, crouch cancel, and some random other things that are kinda easy, and sometimes they'll throw in an l-cancel every not and again. Anyways, they get a lot of "random" hits on me in ways that I guess "shouldn't happen" or they do things that are "bad," but I can't really say anything because it worked on me... -_- So I have a couple of tech/frame related questions:
1. If I jab after I fair a shield, am I safe from shield grabs?
2. Does shield pressure with jabs work? Do I have to add in the crouch to get the IASA thing?
3. I know it differs character to character, but has anyone posted anything on how I generally should shield pressure with Sheik?
4. vs Marth
When I shield a F-smash, that SHOULD be a free grab if I WD oos right? I've done wd'ed and the marth would just grab me and I'd be like "wtf?"
1. If I jab after I fair a shield, am I safe from shield grabs?
2. Does shield pressure with jabs work? Do I have to add in the crouch to get the IASA thing?
3. I know it differs character to character, but has anyone posted anything on how I generally should shield pressure with Sheik?
4. vs Marth
When I shield a F-smash, that SHOULD be a free grab if I WD oos right? I've done wd'ed and the marth would just grab me and I'd be like "wtf?"
TKD
Smash Lord
1. depends on your spacing, but you can still mix up your timing (jab 1, 2, or 1, 1, 2)
2. yes, although many good players will crouch cancel instead of blocking your jab so watch out. crouch's utility lies in letting you do the first jab again; otherwise iasa doesn't change
3. autocancel fair should do all the pressuring for you lol...i usually space an ac fair and wait while they helplessly try to roll or whiff a shieldgrab (pretty much no shield option reaches you at ac fair distance). ac fair to ftilt is usually "safe" but you should do other stuff (like ac fair wait for roll or ac fair jab wait for roll or ac fair walk grab) if they keep blocking long enough to block your ftilt
4. COMPLETELY free grab. just input the jump pretty much as soon as the move touches your shield. but tipper fsmash is unpunishable from block (i think)
for me, stuff vs shields is usually baiting their stuff from shield (like spot-dodge, rolls, jumps) and punishing it, or just randomly grabbing them.
listen to other players as they may give you better answers. i don't think about shields too much...shielding isn't OP like in brawl
edit: if you ftilt after landing an ac fair on a shield, it'll hit if they attempt a shieldgrab (dtilt works too)
2. yes, although many good players will crouch cancel instead of blocking your jab so watch out. crouch's utility lies in letting you do the first jab again; otherwise iasa doesn't change
3. autocancel fair should do all the pressuring for you lol...i usually space an ac fair and wait while they helplessly try to roll or whiff a shieldgrab (pretty much no shield option reaches you at ac fair distance). ac fair to ftilt is usually "safe" but you should do other stuff (like ac fair wait for roll or ac fair jab wait for roll or ac fair walk grab) if they keep blocking long enough to block your ftilt
4. COMPLETELY free grab. just input the jump pretty much as soon as the move touches your shield. but tipper fsmash is unpunishable from block (i think)
for me, stuff vs shields is usually baiting their stuff from shield (like spot-dodge, rolls, jumps) and punishing it, or just randomly grabbing them.
listen to other players as they may give you better answers. i don't think about shields too much...shielding isn't OP like in brawl
edit: if you ftilt after landing an ac fair on a shield, it'll hit if they attempt a shieldgrab (dtilt works too)
BlindSpot
Smash Apprentice
Could someone give me tips for the Sheik vs Peach MU? I'm a Sheik main, and I have a tournament tomorrow. The only MU I have difficulties with are Peach.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Grab, downthrow and then do mean things to her (you probably won't learn dthrow, dash, immediate uair at low percents to start off the best combos by tomorrow, but dthrow really reliably leads to fun things at all percents and the stuff at mid/high is fairly easy).
Realize she's fairly slow, if you get caught by any of her stuff, you're probably doing sth wrong.
You can sometimes ftilt her out of her fc fair startup, if she's not careful about how she sets it up.
Anything a little more specific you're having issues with?
Realize she's fairly slow, if you get caught by any of her stuff, you're probably doing sth wrong.
You can sometimes ftilt her out of her fc fair startup, if she's not careful about how she sets it up.
Anything a little more specific you're having issues with?
BlindSpot
Smash Apprentice
Thank you so much!
The only thing I can think of is approaching her. What's the best way to go about that?
The only thing I can think of is approaching her. What's the best way to go about that?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
A very careful, deliberate one. Sheik doesn't have the greatest approaches, and Peach's defensive game is one of her strongest assets.
You rarely want to run into her when she is in her float and waiting for you to come in just to fair you in the face. Best times are obviously when she is starting to set it up, if you manage to get in a range where her instant nair will miss, and you can hit her for that or neutral jumping into a float, you're in a pretty good position. It can be viable to actually go for wd towards > ftilt when you call her jump, but I wouldn't count on it too much.
I wouldn't really try to approach to much, more set up things where she feels uncomfortable and throws out something stupid and then punish that. On that note: make sure you can punish whiffing downsmashes, it's hilarious how many people don't do that... and it's essentially free.
But if you want to apply pressure, you can either, like mentioned try to tilt her out of her float during her set up (she goes through jump squat, flies upwards for some frames, and then has a long start up on fair... it's really possible to sneak in something if Peach isn't careful about the way she gets there.
I don't really see other things for Sheik that I would call approaches. Dash attack should only be used as a punish when Peach whiffs something, grab is more of a "you've conditioned your opponent to shield"-thing (or also a whiff-punish), and well I don't think Sheik's aerial game has merit in terms of approaching in the matchup (it's good for walling her out, though).
Well, running off a platform > falling needles > grab / tilt might work.
Dunno, you're a lot more mobile than she is, just make her feel uncomfortable and punish whatever she does to try and keep you out (her aerials are rather safe from float, so I'd just get some needles there or throw them in her face).
You rarely want to run into her when she is in her float and waiting for you to come in just to fair you in the face. Best times are obviously when she is starting to set it up, if you manage to get in a range where her instant nair will miss, and you can hit her for that or neutral jumping into a float, you're in a pretty good position. It can be viable to actually go for wd towards > ftilt when you call her jump, but I wouldn't count on it too much.
I wouldn't really try to approach to much, more set up things where she feels uncomfortable and throws out something stupid and then punish that. On that note: make sure you can punish whiffing downsmashes, it's hilarious how many people don't do that... and it's essentially free.
But if you want to apply pressure, you can either, like mentioned try to tilt her out of her float during her set up (she goes through jump squat, flies upwards for some frames, and then has a long start up on fair... it's really possible to sneak in something if Peach isn't careful about the way she gets there.
I don't really see other things for Sheik that I would call approaches. Dash attack should only be used as a punish when Peach whiffs something, grab is more of a "you've conditioned your opponent to shield"-thing (or also a whiff-punish), and well I don't think Sheik's aerial game has merit in terms of approaching in the matchup (it's good for walling her out, though).
Well, running off a platform > falling needles > grab / tilt might work.
Dunno, you're a lot more mobile than she is, just make her feel uncomfortable and punish whatever she does to try and keep you out (her aerials are rather safe from float, so I'd just get some needles there or throw them in her face).
BlindSpot
Smash Apprentice
Again, thank you so much! I learned a lot from what you wrote, and I'm excited to see how I do tomorrow
darkatma
Smash Hero
KK I'm ready to have some ideas bounced off of me.
Also some good ole Sheik vs Falcon play by le me. I had gone falco the entire tourney but was convinced by a friend that Jace was probably the best practice I would get for a while, so I stuffed some matches in. From the variance in how I do in the matches I feel like I fell back on some old bad habits every now and then and got punished for them pretty hard. At least I get slightly better at chech tasing.
darkatma vs Jace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKP9Z8f8tu0
Anyways my problem matchups still seem to be fox falco. It seems at the last 3 nationals I went to I lost to a falco, then a fox every single time
And two of those were the exact same 2 people in the same exact order =[ (Peepee, SFAT combo)
Also some good ole Sheik vs Falcon play by le me. I had gone falco the entire tourney but was convinced by a friend that Jace was probably the best practice I would get for a while, so I stuffed some matches in. From the variance in how I do in the matches I feel like I fell back on some old bad habits every now and then and got punished for them pretty hard. At least I get slightly better at chech tasing.
darkatma vs Jace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKP9Z8f8tu0
Anyways my problem matchups still seem to be fox falco. It seems at the last 3 nationals I went to I lost to a falco, then a fox every single time
And two of those were the exact same 2 people in the same exact order =[ (Peepee, SFAT combo)Hey guys, I have a major problem with my recovery. Let's say I use my second jump offstage and I'm faced away from the ledge. If I Up-B, I won't be able to grab the ledge because I'm not facing the ledge. Any tips please?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
If you up b into a wall, it can turn you around... so as long as you sweetspot it (and don't aim it above the stage to fall down to the ledge) you'll be fine.
There are situations where it won't quite work, because you can't hit a wall (e.g. you're pretty much straight below the ledge). In these cases you can reverse needle store cancel to turn around. Well, provided you put in the work to learn that :D
There are situations where it won't quite work, because you can't hit a wall (e.g. you're pretty much straight below the ledge). In these cases you can reverse needle store cancel to turn around. Well, provided you put in the work to learn that :D
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
^In that situation, you probably don't want to needle cancel. UpB away from the stage until you poof, then finish your upB be either grabbing the ledge or going over and landing on the stage.
SyphiliS
Smash Cadet
Pretend you are a pichu and have 2 segments of your up-b (another way of thinking about it).
TKD
Smash Lord
KK I'm ready to have some ideas bounced off of me.
Also some good ole Sheik vs Falcon play by le me. I had gone falco the entire tourney but was convinced by a friend that Jace was probably the best practice I would get for a while, so I stuffed some matches in. From the variance in how I do in the matches I feel like I fell back on some old bad habits every now and then and got punished for them pretty hard. At least I get slightly better at chech tasing.
darkatma vs Jace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKP9Z8f8tu0
Anyways my problem matchups still seem to be fox falco. It seems at the last 3 nationals I went to I lost to a falco, then a fox every single time
vs Fox, sparingly attempt walling him out, but don't abuse it so you don't lose too much space. Offstage, avoid his shine at all costs and space so you don't get baired out of your air-jump/upb from the ledge. If you're in the zone, predict his movement for punishments. Stuff his movement! Trading with Fox is usually not that bad...and most of the time he's more busy trying to move around than attempting to crouch cancel or summon hitboxes, so focus on stuffing his movement (bair/nair even if they'll sour hit).
You can shieldgrab their dair as it has low shieldstun (unless they consistently time it perfectly which is rare for any player). You can roll out after blocking any aerial by holding the C-stick during shieldstun (or as soon as the aerial touches your shield). You can also shieldgrab their bair if they're in range as the timing for ASAP shine can be tough for them.
vs Falco, get him from an angle above him (have you played Dive Kick? LOL). You can shieldgrab any SHFFL he executes too quickly as it takes him longer to land from his short-hops. Like vs Fox, you can roll out after blocking any aerial before the shine can hit you. If he lasers your shield right next to you, he's probably going to shine. If he's a bit too far away from you to shine you, he'll probably want to dash JC grab you (Falcos LOVE attempting this), so you can predict that and punish with spot-dodge or nair or maybe even shieldgrab them first (or maybe just get away with a roll).
Abuse ledge camping. His shine won't kill you like Fox's (and you'll often need to do it to regenerate your shield unless your decisions are just amazing and you're not even spending much of it).
Against both, it's very important to master dthrow tech chase so you ALWAYS follow up on those (if they keep teching it, it's an infinite until you get them offstage. there's already a thread about it here in the Sheik board). You have to also be at least decent at edgeguarding them (bairs are good, baiting airdodges is good, needle if they start an upb at needle height, dsmash/ftilt their sideb, preemptively jump off to KO with fair/bair if you predict a high upb, etc.).
Remember to bait spot-dodges/shines inbetween the stuff they do. Many spacie players do this as a panic thing.
Sweetspot bair outranges their whole aerial game. Tech chase uair vs platforms works wonders.
That's the most important stuff I know about those match-ups.
The most important piece of advice I can give you is to watch a TON of m2k matches. That's how I'm learning, like, everything.
Nedved
Smash Apprentice
Hi there !
I just came back from a kind of retirement from smash and went to a small tournament yesterday. (PAL Version btw)
Got in lot of trouble because of some technical mistakes (I couldn't even ledgedash properly), but i managed to get my Sheik to winner semis.
Then i get destroyed by a Falcon. It is clearly my best MU, but i knew from the start my chain-throws were not on point, so it was gonna be hard.
I got 4-stocked, 3 stocked, and then I went Fox.
I'm decided to get back in shape, so I'll be working my ass off to improve technically. My neutral game and my movements during neutral game has improved a lot because I'm way better at wavedancing than before, but when Falcon just threw stuff at me at high speed, I just get destroyed.
How can you handle a very agrressive Falcon as Sheik ? If I'm against an opposant which let me some room to breath, I can perform some stuff, but I was helpless against Falcon. Vids might (or not) come later. Any idea ?
Thanks guys !
I just came back from a kind of retirement from smash and went to a small tournament yesterday. (PAL Version btw)
Got in lot of trouble because of some technical mistakes (I couldn't even ledgedash properly), but i managed to get my Sheik to winner semis.
Then i get destroyed by a Falcon. It is clearly my best MU, but i knew from the start my chain-throws were not on point, so it was gonna be hard.
I got 4-stocked, 3 stocked, and then I went Fox.
I'm decided to get back in shape, so I'll be working my ass off to improve technically. My neutral game and my movements during neutral game has improved a lot because I'm way better at wavedancing than before, but when Falcon just threw stuff at me at high speed, I just get destroyed.
How can you handle a very agrressive Falcon as Sheik ? If I'm against an opposant which let me some room to breath, I can perform some stuff, but I was helpless against Falcon. Vids might (or not) come later. Any idea ?
Thanks guys !
Xyzz
Smash Champion
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14876969&postcount=402 is a great ressource
Nedved
Smash Apprentice
Thanks, but I already know this. Falcon is by far my best match-up, I just think I lack something to handle Falcon's pressure
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I think the general consensus is that CF shouldn't be allowed to apply pressure in the first place by intercepting his stuff with ftilt. (Or moving out of the way, so you don't get too predictable)
Well, and there is the literal line of "Pressure: Falcons always use their jabs so jump is ofc not so good in any form. What to do is hard to say but I guess just wait and then try to do something but not jump out from it at least."
Or were you talking something other than shield-pressure?
Well, and there is the literal line of "Pressure: Falcons always use their jabs so jump is ofc not so good in any form. What to do is hard to say but I guess just wait and then try to do something but not jump out from it at least."
Or were you talking something other than shield-pressure?
Nedved
Smash Apprentice
A situation that come often is : We're in neutral position (let's say, under BF platforms for example). Falcon dashes forward, go for SHFFL Nair, I shield it, and Falcon goes for either Jab, dash dance grab, grab, another Nair, or any ******** option this character has.
Against Falco I try not to shield, and use WD back to mess up with their spacing, but Falcon really doesn't care about this. If I go for shield, I'm dead. If I don't, I'm dead. If I roll, well... He will probably grab me, and you know what will happen next.
I'll try to stick harder to Armada's guide and go for more trade with ftilt. I'm not a ftilt-spammer Sheik, but it can't hurt to try to use it more to see how it can be useful.
Against Falco I try not to shield, and use WD back to mess up with their spacing, but Falcon really doesn't care about this. If I go for shield, I'm dead. If I don't, I'm dead. If I roll, well... He will probably grab me, and you know what will happen next.
I'll try to stick harder to Armada's guide and go for more trade with ftilt. I'm not a ftilt-spammer Sheik, but it can't hurt to try to use it more to see how it can be useful.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Well, I am the ftilt spamming sort of Sheik (hell, I use walk > ftilt in neutral position), so I'm probably biased, but I think it's really good in the matchup.
Sheik imho is fast enough to never be forced into shield; either intercept or move out of the way. If you have to give him quite a bit of stage, that's okay... he's gotta be careful about approaching you near the ledge anyways.
Sheik imho is fast enough to never be forced into shield; either intercept or move out of the way. If you have to give him quite a bit of stage, that's okay... he's gotta be careful about approaching you near the ledge anyways.