Sheik Fthrow into Bouncing Fish Combo's. Complete!

[Tristan_win]

Update: This data is now outdated.



Hey everyone this thread was a joint effort between

@ Absol

@ Wasserwipf and myself so please give credit where credit is due.


Everything you see in this chart has been tested in Vs mode with the DI direction listed while spamming air dodge. It has also been double check to see if it's a real combo in training mode. Your opponent will not be able to escape bouncing fish if you read their DI and react quickly enough or predict correctly.

When your opponent are in these percents Sheik grab game becomes outstanding as you force your opponent into really just two options, up and toward Sheik or away. They may try other directions but Bouncing fish covers the majority of theses. With really only two options they have to make the choice of risking DI away to avoid your uair,fair,nair only to possibly taking a BF to the face, which does 19% total with grab or DI up and towards Sheik and get uair, fair, nair but avoid the BF. For a few select characters within a certain % range though Fthrow into Bouncing Fish is a true combo and is completely unavoidable.

TL;DR

• This works on everyone if they fail to DI up and towards Sheik until 20% but on Jigglypuff, ness, kirby, Luigi, Olimar, Villager, Palutena, Peach, Rob, Mario, Toon link, Game and watch. So don't try to do it on these characters unless you know their percents.
• This will work no matter how Diddy Kong DI until 15%
  
• This will work no matter how Dedede, Lucario, Rob, Charizard, DI until 30%. I highly suggest learning their individual percents Dedede 60%, Lucario 50%, Rob 35%, Charizard 30%

Fthrow into Bouncing fish is a bread and butter combo for Sheik

• This chart is very user friendly. To rearrange the order from greatest to least or least to greatest click at the top of the column. You can also alphabetize the list using this method.
• The reason why some characters like Mario are listed as 0-05% is because this chart is a bit silly, it's just the normal 0% to 5%. Oh also the majority of these were tested to the closest factor of 5 or 10 so it might be possible to squeeze in a bit more then what's listed.
• All testing was done in Vs's mode with Sheik below 40% so rage was not a factor into these combo's.
• You don't have to jump or extend bouncing fish to get these to work, just make sure the attack comes out as soon as possible.
• In fact you should be able to connect bouncing fish for even longer then what's listed if you extend the range.

@ _Tree has taken the time to make a video on this thread. It's a good watch so please 'like' his work and tell him how awesome he is.

| DI Away | DI Up and Towards Sheik
Mario | 0-20% | 0-05%
Luigi | 0-05% | None
Peach | 0-15% | None
Yoshi | 0-25% | 0-10%
Bowser | 0-55%* | 0-15%
Rosalina | 0-30%* | None
Bowser Jr | 0-60% | 0-03%*
Wario | 0-30%* | None
Game and watch | 0-20%* | None
DK | 0-80% | 0-05%
Diddy Kong | 0-30% | 0-15%
Link | 0-55% | None
Zelda | 0-35% | None
Sheik | 0-45% | None
Ganondorft | 0-45% | None
Toon link | 0-20%* | None
Samus | 0-40% | None
Zero suit Samus | 0-55%* | None
Dedede | 0-70% | 0-60%*
Lucario | 0-50%* | 0-50%
Greeninja | 0-30%* | None
Little mac | 0-55% | None
meta knight | 0-40% | None*
Kirby | 0-05% | None
Robin | 0-55% | None
Ike | 0-60% | None*
Marth | 0-60% | None
Palutena | 0-15% | None
Pit | 0-65% | 0-15%
ROB | 0-20% | 0-35%
Duck Hunt Dog | 0-40% | None*
Jigglypuff | -,- | LOL
Charizard |0-35% | 0-30%*
Pikachu | 0-40% | None*
Falco | 0-40% | 0-04%*
Fox | 0-30% | None
Ness | 0-05% | None
Captain Falcon | 0-60% | None
Villager | 0-10% | None
Olimar | 0-05% | 0-05%
Wii Fit Trainer | 0-25% | None
Shulk | 0-35%* | None
Pac Man | 0-33%* | None
Mega man | 0-45% | None*
Sonic | 0-25% | None

While @ _Tree was making his video he took the time to check our numbers and found some differences. Because of this I updated the data with the lower numbers until we can retested. All change percentages have been marked with a *

Differences

Spoiler

Boswer 0-65% vs 55%
Rosalina 0-40% vs 30%
Boswer Jr 0-3% vs 4%
Wario 0-35% vs 30%
Game and watch 0-20% vs 21%
Toon link 0-25% vs 20%
Zero suit Samus 0-63% vs 55%
Ike None vs 5%
Dedede 69% vs 60%
Meta knight None vs 5%
Falco 5% vs 4%
Pikachu None vs 5%
Charizard 0-40% vs 30%
Lucario 0-60% vs 50% (inward)
Greeninja 0-40% vs 30%
Duck hunt dog None vs 5%
ROB 0-20% vs 30%
ROB 0-35% vs 20%
Dr Mario -Not tested- vs 0- 25% 0-5% (so 5% more for away then normal mario)
Shulk 0-45% vs 35%
Pac Man 0-40% vs 33%
Mega man None vs 5%

Slightly easier to learn list for away.

Spoiler

Away
5%
Olimar, Luigi, Kirby, Ness
10%
Villager
15%
Peach, Palutena,
20%
Mario, Rob, Game and Watch
25%
Yoshi, Toon link, WFT, Sonic
30%
Diddy kong, fox,
35%
Charizard, Wario, Zelda
40%
Falco, Rosalina, Samus, Greeninja, Meta knight, DHD, Pikachu, Pac Man,
45%
Sheik, Ganondorft, Shulk, Mega Man,
55%
Link, Little mac, Robin,
60%
Bowser Jr, Lucario, Marth, Captain Falcon, Zero suit Samus
65%
Bowser, Pit
70%
Dedede,
80%
DK

Extra knowledge:

KB = Knock Back

Fthrow decay very slowly so sadly you wont see much improvement with multiple throws around the same time.
Three 300% Mario fthrow by 0% Sheik, three throws in a row, one fthrow per Mario. Throw1 KB96, Throw2 KB95,Throw3 KB95. Barely any change.

~~~~
Honorary mention of @ saviorslegacy as he did help with the Dedede DI up and towards Sheik and was willing to help test.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I don't think people realize how good fthrow into BF is.
Just imagine that Sheik gets to chain three dthrows together and then follow up with a Fair. That is about what this is.

Hey Tristan if you need any help testing fthrow> jump> BF just skype me. I have been wanting to test it myself but I can't.....
Also dthrow> usmash needs to be tested. I'll post a working list w/o VI in a little bit.

 

[Virgman]

Good stuff. Are there videos of this being done? I'm a visual learner, so seeing it being done helps me to comprehend it better.

 

[Tristan_win]

Good stuff. Are there videos of this being done? I'm a visual learner, so seeing it being done helps me to comprehend it better.

Sorry there isn't but there might be in the future if @ _Tree with his sexy voice decides to make one.

Is there anything your confused on? I might be able to explain it better.

 

[LinkNIvy]

Have you had much luck with Pisces and JF from fthrow? Pisces angle makes it weird although I haven't tried it with BF even before the nerf

 

[suarsuar]

ty mate, time to get to werk.

 

[vypex]

Dair into bouncing fish is something i've been able to pull off quiet a bit, don't know which characters can get out of it and at what percent havn't delved into it that far, just another combo some people might want to try

 

[Absol]

I love your new sig tristan

 

[_Tree]

I was considering making a video on this, but all this delicious data makes it official. Not sure when, but it's definitely on the list.

And of course, credit for everyone!

But yea, really good work on this guys. Incredibly useful to know. Poor Dedede...

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Poor Dedede...

Is it a true combo against him? That's fantastic news if so. Quite literally a taste of his own Dthrowing medicine. I have major problems with that character, so this is a godsend.

 

[False]

Even if you do decide to use Fthrow at kill percents, you can still full hop and bait out a reaction from your opponent, and bouncing fish as necessary.

 

[Boasting Toast]

Even if you do decide to use Fthrow at kill percents, you can still full hop and bait out a reaction from your opponent, and bouncing fish as necessary.

Exactly what I was gonna say, if you can get them into the habit of airdodging after you fthrow them, just bait it out and BF them. Learned that one from you.

 

[Neoxide]

I've tried using fthrow to BF mainly on ZSS and captain falcon and it didn't seem to work. The fthrow would send them too high to make contact with BF, I'm assuming they weren't using DI after I throw them.

 

[Wasserwipf]

I've tried using fthrow to BF mainly on ZSS and captain falcon and it didn't seem to work. The fthrow would send them too high to make contact with BF, I'm assuming they weren't using DI after I throw them.

As you can tell of the Chart, there is a "DI up and towards" that tells you how good your combo is against people who know what to do. Depending on the angle DI between away (the best) and up and toward (the worst... for Sheik) your combo % will variate quite alot. if that not enough for you, try to use Shorthops and or shortened BF.
Hope that helps abit.

 

[cFive]

but is it worth doing? :/
at low % fair combos seem more effective^^

nice thread tho!

 

[Tristan_win]

but is it worth doing? :/
at low % fair combos seem more effective^^

nice thread tho!

Very good question and I'm more then happy to get into that and where I stand on the matter!

So...Here's the thing, fthrow when fresh does 7%, Fair when fresh does 5% which is a total of 13%. You can get this combo for a fairly long time and in some match ups well over 100% if they DI up instead of away. Now the 2nd Fair is not always guaranteed but assuming it is it does 4% due to decay so that's a total of 17% now. That is still 2% less then just Fthrow into bouncing fish when both are fresh.

Although Sheik isn't limited to just 2 fairs and it is fairly possible to combo/string into more but to do so would require either horrible DI from your opponent or an entire stage for Sheik to chase them while doing fair, fast fall, dash, jump fair. Sometimes it even requires both >_<. When this is possible though and Sheik can link more then just 2 fairs it becomes much better and it's not because of the damage (which is of course higher ) but due to decay. Once done Sheik fair combo ability greatly raises, how much? ^__^' I honestly don't know right now but I want to say enough that Sheik should be able to nearly constantly string multiple fair's in a row for as long as the move is that decayed.

What does this means? WELL I haven't had a chance to really test it yet but it could mean things like fair into Bouncing fish could become a true combo or the very least a decent frame trap....Sure, it might not be possible in killing percents on stage but off stage :3 it could become Sheik new ftilt into usmash.

If multiple fair's in a row is possible from fthrow if they DI up (away will help them escape BUT then we can BF them or just fair them anyways because pfff Sheik ) then it could become Sheik best high percent (around 100%) finisher. If it does becomes that then Sheik grab only becomes even better as suddenly it's a win win for Sheik no matter what just as long as you manage to land the BF or fair string with 3 or more in a row while keeping decay in mind.

edit: You know for a ****ty player I can think on a decent level for smash. lol

 

[Ha7wire]

If you have the time to make excessive stata tables, I'm sure you have some footage of the combos. Any update on putting this into a video to help other sheik players visualize the data?

 

[_Tree]

^ That passive aggressiveness tho

Ok looks like the demand for a video of this is a little higher than I expected. I'll step up my editing.

 

[Ha7wire]

^ That passive aggressiveness tho

Ok looks like the demand for a video of this is a little higher than I expected. I'll step up my editing.

=D just trying to get better m8

 

[Blitzern]

So this won't work as well if the opponent knows to DI up and towards you? (I know it's character specific but in general)

 

[saviorslegacy]

So this won't work as well if the opponent knows to DI up and towards you? (I know it's character specific but in general)

That is correct.

 

[cFive]

i wonder if you could sometimes get it to work with even higher % by making a REALLY SHORT jump and then immediatelly use bouncing fish..? maybe this works against a few chars with higher % than the thread says :D

i did this yesterday a few times, hard to tell tho, if my opponents did everything possible not to get out (airdodge)... but what i know is, i wouldnt have hit them if i only used bouncing fish after the throw (because too much knockback)

 

[Wasserwipf]

i wonder if you could sometimes get it to work with even higher % by making a REALLY SHORT jump and then immediatelly use bouncing fish..? maybe this works against a few chars with higher % than the thread says :D

i did this yesterday a few times, hard to tell tho, if my opponents did everything possible not to get out (airdodge)... but what i know is, i wouldnt have hit them if i only used bouncing fish after the throw (because too much knockback)

You're correct. The main purpose of this chart is to show whats possible with minimal effort. So those can performed easy even with horrible lag, and they ALWAYS work. It is, however, correct that you can get guaranteed hits in higher % if you Hop and use distance control for you BF, but that will be covered another time... since its really hard to get actual results here.

 

[cFive]

... since its really hard to get actual results here.

yeah thats prolly true!
love the work you put into this!

 

[Judo777]

So this won't work as well if the opponent knows to DI up and towards you? (I know it's character specific but in general)

Pretty sure that up and towards is not good DI for dthrow tho. So you get a nice mix up if nothing else.

 

[Tristan_win]

Pretty sure that up and towards is not good DI for dthrow tho. So you get a nice mix up if nothing else.

I agree, before I went on this force vacation from smash I was playing around with using dthrow only in the high percents. I had even done a little training mode testing for the 'kill effect' with comboing into uair.

Mario 128% ish
Bowser 145% ish
Rosalina 115% ish

It would be very nice if we could reliably combo dthrow into uair with Sheik above 110%, assuming we manage to read their DI. It would be even better if it could kill.

Although @ Wasserwipf and myself did test for it I still think landing a rising uair will increase uair total knock back, even near killing percents. Anyways I should have smash4 for the wiiU by next Saturday. (Q_Q No gamecube controller though) I can't wait to go back to test and relying on this great board for help and self improvement. =D

 

[_Tree]

Pretty sure that up and towards is not good DI for dthrow tho. So you get a nice mix up if nothing else.

Woah. We talking about true mix-ups now? This is for real.

Also, congrats on becoming a mod Tristan, you definitely deserved it.

 

[quamcomole]

I think you can combo it slightly higher if you short hop right before using fish

 

[Tristan_win]

Sorry for the slow update @ _Tree but I added your number to the chart. I decided until I'm able to retest this to put the lowest found number in.

I rather be told this works longer then what's listed then have people telling me it doesn't work.

 

[_Tree]

Ah, cool. Yea, putting those numbers for the time being is probably best. I know the time devotion it takes for double-checking and triple-checking.

 

[rahsosprout]

sorry if this is a noob question but is there any reason only those 2 DI directions were worth testing?

 

[_Tree]

sorry if this is a noob question but is there any reason only those 2 DI directions were worth testing?

Basically, any other DI options don't affect them. If they DI down for example, it wouldn't be any different to if they hadn't DI'd at all. Doing it Up + In and doing it away are the only DI options that affect their trajectory in any meaningful way.

 

[rahsosprout]

Basically, any other DI options don't affect them. If they DI down for example, it wouldn't be any different to if they hadn't DI'd at all. Doing it Up + In and doing it away are the only DI options that affect their trajectory in any meaningful way.

would the difference between DI UP + AWAY be insignificant compared to DI AWAY?

edit: the reason im asking is because at higher %, when you try to combo either full hop bf or double jump bf, this might come into play

 

[Tristan_win]

would the difference between DI UP + AWAY be insignificant compared to DI AWAY?

edit: the reason im asking is because at higher %, when you try to combo either full hop to bf or double jump to bf, this might come into play

Due to how the Bouncing fish hit boxes work no. The move is really disjointed and hits rather high in front of sheik. It's just faster to DI purely away to escape then up and away.

The same thing could be said about DI up and towards vs DI just up. DI up does make it so you will escape but not as early as DI up and towards.

 

[rahsosprout]

ok hmm i get it now. by the way, do you guys need help testing this?

 

[Tristan_win]

ok hmm i get it now. by the way, do you guys need help testing this?

Well this is a first <3

Help is always wanted but for this in particular though it's more less done. There was some discussion as when @ _Tree made his video he found a few slight differences so we just updated/kept the lower of the two numbers until we get back to retesting this.

It's a bit of a low priority for me though but I wont denied your help if you want to test this! Add me on skype: tristan_win

 

[rahsosprout]

@ Tristan_win
@ _Tree
@ Absol
@ Wasserwipf

I think F-throw to bouncing fish is worth taking another look at in terms of double jump and single jump combo potential.
I'd be willing to split up some of the characters with you guys, because I just realized this is way too much work for just 1 or 2 people.

I just tried it on Mario and made a short demonstration video, but even with optimal DI, you can combo into bouncing fish up until KO %. Granted, for it to register as a combo, this requires nearly frame perfect execution (most likely buffered) but difficulty of execution should not get in the way of something so useful. Sheik would get a guaranteed kill option out of grab regardless of DI.

Video:

Edit: Also don't let this video fool you. I've played Sheik for about 5 days and am absolutely trash with her.
Edit 2: Nevermind, it's not hard. It's only hard when I have to hold down the control stick for DI on the other controller at the same time -___-

 

[Estryark]

Do you really need to second jump? At what % do you start using single and double jump?

EDIT: Well nevermind, I see the double jump in the video...

 

[Jaxas]

@ Tristan_win
@ _Tree
@ Absol
@ Wasserwipf

I think F-throw to bouncing fish is worth taking another look at in terms of double jump and single jump combo potential.
I'd be willing to split up some of the characters with you guys, because I just realized this is way too much work for just 1 or 2 people.

I just tried it on Mario and made a short demonstration video, but even with optimal DI, you can combo into bouncing fish up until KO %. Granted, for it to register as a combo, this requires nearly frame perfect execution (most likely buffered) but difficulty of execution should not get in the way of something so useful. Sheik would get a guaranteed kill option out of grab regardless of DI.

Video:

Edit: Also don't let this video fool you. I've played Sheik for about 5 days and am absolutely trash with her.
Edit 2: Nevermind, it's not hard. It's only hard when I have to hold down the control stick for DI on the other controller at the same time -___-

So basically from what you can tell Fthrow -> Jump (-> DJ) -> BF true combos all the way up to kill percents?
And all you need to do if buffer the jump(s)?

...gonna lab the heck out of this once I get home, because holy crap would I like to be able to kill off of throws reliably.

Hopefully it works outside of training mode >.>
I feel like this is the sort of thing Rage might screw up

 

[rahsosprout]

So basically from what you can tell Fthrow -> Jump (-> DJ) -> BF true combos all the way up to kill percents?
And all you need to do if buffer the jump(s)?

...gonna lab the heck out of this once I get home, because holy crap would I like to be able to kill off of throws reliably.

Hopefully it works outside of training mode >.>
I feel like this is the sort of thing Rage might screw up

short answer is yes. i think this still doesnt work on characters like puff but can be extended significantly on fatties like bowser ddd etc.

i will do more testing but this is a long term project for now.

at high % ppl tend to di away since they want to avoid the uair followup which is great.

re: your point about rage, you should be able to kill most characters well before they are at a high enough % where they can di out. for mario di up and towards max is 135% and di away max is 180%. past 135% if they continue to di up and away you can simply uair for the ko. also di direction doesnt have to be read since you have ample time to adjust bouncing fish distance on reaction

also rage might be offset by staleness so i think training mode is a decent indicator. at the very least it shows the combo can continue for much much longer