Sexism in smash bros in general and character design:

[StrangeKitten]

You Know That Sexy Designed Characters exist for both Sexes Right?

And ZSS Costume Shows not more Skin than Shulks it has Short of a Simalar Lenght and the Bra is far less Sexualixed as Bikini Tops That Woman Want to Wear when they Swim

Don't forget the latest one!

 

[Sucumbio]

Both character designs are appropriate examples of shonen. Being that most character designs somehow never escape their manga routes it's unfair to label video game characters without understanding the intention and audience of the design.

 

[Doc Monocle]

As I recently slightly derailed a thread about Kells/super awesome, female, competitive Sonic main I can't remember the name of for the life of me, to rant about sexism in general and character design I decided to create this thread to stop said derailing at the suggestion of someone with a Ganondorf avatar. (I am sorry, I can't remember your name, I am HORRIBLE with names, I remember avatars better though.)

Some ground rules for this thread:

1: No joking sexism PERIOD! This will not be tolerated/you will be ripped a new one by one of the many awesome people that will not take sexism here.
2: If you have to say something sexist like I KNOW will be posted here. Limit it to Diet Sexism, which is like this video for Diet Racism but with sexism. Warning language/mentions of what letter certain offensive words begin with and you know racism. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdyin6uipy4

3: This topic is for discussing BOTH sexism in the smash community/gaming community as a whole ie female/non male players getting crap for not being a guy (which you know CLEARLY limits how much ******** they can kick in tournaments) AND sexism in Smash character design such as half of ZSS's costumes showing too much skin and unless her chest has its own hit box it should NOT be that big.



Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits have to show so much skin that she could easily be a stand in for a waitress at the more famously sexist "resuaunt" that I will not name as I think it's name is too sexist/sexually charged to be posted here. This is basically like having Captain Falcon, little mac, and Link wearing a speedo, it's not comfortable for them, but it's still what they would have to deal with being thought of every time mentioned their name.

My simple position is that one should ask what the societal impacts of anything displayed on any medium are. What are we influencing young people especially to think? Unaware, we represent ourselves by what we offer to the public. Whatever we display, we promote as acceptable. In the context of this discussion, I would say the question should revolve around what exactly the developers did. Showing excess may be TO THEM an innocent part of life, but that is only because they were taught by a former generation that it was innocent. It is a repetitive cycle.

Whatever is good and acceptable, WE should and MUST make OUR responsibility to show and to teach, regardless of those who do the contrary. That includes our influences, which facilitate or resist, but do not control our actions, so I look at the problem of questionable character design to be something that we must act in the face of rather than label, for the label is clear to everyone (whether they are for or against it) as good or evil.

 

[Brindor]

I am a simple man.
I see blue hair on a female character? I like
I see a female character who would probably kick my backside IRL? I MEGA like.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

My simple position is that one should ask what the societal impacts of anything displayed on any medium are.

In the case of Japanese media including anime, manga and especially their video games like Smash, the societal impact of choosing to NOT listen to people that throw fits over attractive female character creates artistic freedom.

Encouraging character designs that are also perfectly realistic, normal and healthy in body is arguably something positive. More often than not, the people that take the greatest issue with this seem to be American women that don't play or buy video games anyway and ergo are not customers. Not accounting for the fact that unlike Japan, the reality and societal norm of America is to be a diabetic overweight with poor eating habits that gets no exercise.

 

[Doc Monocle]

In the case of Japanese media including anime, manga and especially their video games like Smash, the societal impact of choosing to NOT listen to people that throw fits over attractive female character creates artistic freedom.

Encouraging character designs that are also perfectly realistic, normal and healthy in body is arguably something positive. More often than not, the people that take the greatest issue with this seem to be American women that don't play or buy video games anyway and ergo are not customers. Not accounting for the fact that unlike Japan, the reality and societal norm of America is to be a diabetic overweight with poor eating habits that gets no exercise.

I shall review that post in steps:

1: 'Attractive' is not a well-defined word here. What do I mean? A word is well-defined if anyone can learn the definition by reference, those who have learned the definition will always know what you mean, the word always means the same thing (hence the 'by reference' bit), and its (the definition's) constituent words are also well-defined (this is a recursion component, and so I can understand if you wish this one to be omitted). Since people are raised in a variety of cultures, circumstances, conditions of exposure, etc., it would be impossible for them to learn the definition of 'attractive' as used above. That is in one instance (a reference), someone may behold another who is called 'attractive', for argument's sake. In another instance, the previous reference says nothing about whether this person should be considered attractive. Perhaps someone would like to explain with descriptions such as "he/she has blonde hair...' but then that would lead to the consistency problem prohibited by the meaning of 'well-defined' above since (let us face it), we may see two different people with contrasting qualities, and still call them 'attractive.'

2: '...Creates artistic freedom.' implies that by refusing to listen to someone (a passive condition), it is possible for one's liberty of expression to be made accessible (an active condition) by those who promote a practice in disregard for another person(s) views, even if this person(s) is 'throwing a fit.' Are you actively doing something by passively doing something else?

3. Is Smash Bros. specifically "encouraging character designs that are also perfectly realistic, normal, and healthy?" I could accept this argument if we were discussing Wii Fit Trainer's origin, but this is a fighting game of a completely different subject matter. Besides, are you going to promote "perfectly realistic, normal, and healthy" character designs for Zero Suit Samus side-by-side with an unrealistic,abnormal, fat human named Wario?

4: Well, let us put the matter of "American women that don't play or buy video games and ergo are not consumers" this way... Let us say YOU satisfy criterion x, but not y. Now suppose that the majority of video games on the market suggest that people who satisfy x must also satisfy y in order to be 'attractive,' as used before. That automatically means YOU are not attractive, by the supposed standards. The translation: Let x= 'woman' and let y= 'blonde hair,' or 'slender figure,' or, 'toned muscles,' ... should make it clear that women (or any group pressured to conformity), American or not, have a valid reason to dislike a commercialized representation of people satisfying x. Another thing... Do they have to be consumers to voice their complaints about a matter of great concern to them?

5. I cannot actually address the verity of the last sentence of your post since I do not know the "societal norm" of Japan, though empirically speaking, I might agree with you on America (cautiously). However, I have no qualms with pointing out that again, x= ' typical American body,' and y= 'typical Japanese body (as asserted).'

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

1: 'Attractive' is not a well-defined word here. What do I mean? A word is well-defined if anyone can learn the definition by reference, those who have learned the definition will always know what you mean, the word always means the same thing (hence the 'by reference' bit), and its (the definition's) constituent words are also well-defined (this is a recursion component, and so I can understand if you wish this one to be omitted). Since people are raised in a variety of cultures, circumstances, conditions of exposure, etc., it would be impossible for them to learn the definition of 'attractive' as used above. That is in one instance (a reference), someone may behold another who is called 'attractive', for argument's sake. In another instance, the previous reference says nothing about whether this person should be considered attractive. Perhaps someone would like to explain with descriptions such as "he/she has blonde hair...' but then that would lead to the consistency problem prohibited by the meaning of 'well-defined' above since (let us face it), we may see two different people with contrasting qualities, and still call them 'attractive.'

No idea why you needed to write an essay to explain being attracted to certain body types are a matter of preference. That goes without saying but it's also a fact of human biology that people are attracted to certain body types.

Are you actively doing something by passively doing something else?

You are actively writing stories and characters you want and HOW by passively ignoring people trying to control and change your ideas by pressure. So yes.

I shall review that post in steps:
Besides, are you going to promote "perfectly realistic, normal, and healthy" character designs for Zero Suit Samus side-by-side with an unrealistic,abnormal, fat human named Wario?

Yes, because it's not unrealistic. Fat people with muscles exist. One of my college buddies has that kind of body and is still relatively healthy cuz he exercises. Never said BBM bodies can't be beautiful either. In one of my earlier posts on this thread, you'll find I already made this comparison and mentioned Wario.

Also the fact notwithstanding of Wario like many characters being far more cartoony in design, so some features are naturally going to be more exaggerated and unrealistic like his comically huge teeth, chin and pointed elf ears that are no more realistic than what is essentially a toothed frog with a functioning juvenile flower being part of its organic body that can manipulate instant vine growth that can be contained in a small spherical object that can fit in the average person's pocket.

The whole game is a work of fiction and in no way 100% accurately reflects reality and yet despite that, there's hardly anything unrealistic about Samus' body since women that look like that exist.

Now suppose that the majority of video games on the market suggest that people who satisfy x must also satisfy y in order to be 'attractive,' as used before. That automatically means YOU are not attractive, by the supposed standards. The translation: Let x= 'woman' and let y= 'blonde hair,' or 'slender figure,' or, 'toned muscles,' ... should make it clear that women (or any group pressured to conformity), American or not, have a valid reason to dislike a commercialized representation of people satisfying x. Another thing... Do they have to be consumers to voice their complaints about a matter of great concern to them?

They don't have to be consumers of the product, no. However, if it's a group of people stereotypically doesn't purchase your goods and therefore would never be consumers anyway, why should you listen to them? Fast food businesses have no obligation to do what vegans want.

If they have such issue with certain body types being glorified, then they should probably be focusing on beauty pageants and professional modeling that actively do that and industrialize that as opposed to a video game where people are just trying to enjoy a fat crocodile king punching anime dudes in the face among other things.

5. I cannot actually address the verity of the last sentence of your post since I do not know the "societal norm" of Japan, though empirically speaking, I might agree with you on America (cautiously). However, I have no qualms with pointing out that again, x= ' typical American body,' and y= 'typical Japanese body (as asserted).'

It's a statistical fact America has over 10 times the obesity rate Japan does. In regards to character design, there was a Twitter user that "redesigned" the anime character Hana Uzaki from Uzaki-chan Wants to Hang Out and claimed they made Uzaki ""normal"". The artist was rightfully made fun by numerous Japanese artists and citizens because of the character being Japanese, being fat in Japan is not normal like it is in America.

 

[Doc Monocle]

No idea why you needed to write an essay to explain being attracted to certain body types are a matter of preference.

It is a habit of mine. I apologize if it is an inconvenience. I am used to praparing myself for long, tricky debates (for which I thank you, because this is my first real, extended argument) by attempting to cover all of my bases before exchanging.

You are actively writing stories and characters you want and HOW by passively ignoring people trying to control and change your ideas by pressure. So yes.

Action and the mode of accomplishing that action are two different things. Ignoring people does not accomplish the action; it only says how that action will/will not come out.

I did not insist pressuring anyone, and those who do I would warn that their efforts may not come to anything, and labelling, the thing I suggested not doing, is one of the best tools for pressuring (if I may ask for your agreement).

Yes, because it's not unrealistic. Fat people with muscles exist. One of my college buddies has that kind of body and is still relatively healthy cuz he exercises. Never said BBM bodies can't be beautiful either. In one of my earlier posts on this thread, you'll find I already made this comparison and mentioned Wario.

Also the fact notwithstanding of Wario like many characters being far more cartoony in design, so some features are naturally going to be more exaggerated and unrealistic like his comically huge teeth, chin and pointed elf ears that are no more realistic than what is essentially a toothed frog with a functioning juvenile flower being part of its organic body that can manipulate instant vine growth that can be contained in a small spherical object that can fit in the average person's pocket.

The whole game is a work of fiction and in no way 100% accurately reflects reality and yet despite that, there's hardly anything unrealistic about Samus' body since women that look like that exist.

When I said 'unrealistic,' it was simply in response to your choice of the word 'realistic,' which as you essentially said, is not the nature of Smash Bros.

They don't have to be consumers of the product, no. However, if it's a group of people stereotypically doesn't purchase your goods and therefore would never be consumers anyway, why should you listen to them?

Because this is not about sales or marketability; this is about the human condition; about the human state of mind; about what we want audiences to think. People, by in large, are impressionable, so what impression will you feed them? That 'we consider this attractive, and it would be great if you did too?' If corporations thought deeply about the power they have to influence popular thought and what it means to influence popular thought in an aesthetic rather than substantive direction, I believe they would add an extra mile of caution before designing a character. Remember, most of them will likely value profits, and therefore consumer demands over the positive, deep messages their media can send. So to them, it would be a no-brainer to default to the widespread opinion that x, y, and z is attractive. "Widespread" is the keyword, and not 'all-encompassing.' It is widespread because of the subject of this very thread.

The artist was rightfully made fun by numerous Japanese artists and citizens because of the character being Japanese, being fat in Japan is not normal like it is in America.

I shall not lie that it is somewhat laughable that someone would change the designs of a pre-existing character to match a perception about the culture to which a piece of art is directed (if it is not deemed insulting), but I would contest that it would be rightful to laugh at that artist, because what they essentially did that very thing-- laugh at a culture--. Also if one would laugh at a person for laughing at another person or persons, then somebody else ought to laugh at the one laughing at the one laughing, and so on.

Finally, phrases like 'unlike (insert nation)' can be very inflammatory. They are basically esteeming one culture or country over another, yet both consist of people, and no matter where you go, people are people, and carry their flawed ways with them. I am sure there are some things that are deplorable about Japanese customs that are not held by the U.S. (just as an example) as a 'national standard,' though even this would I argue since I personally do not believe one country or culture can genuinely boast above another without being hypocritical. However, to give a more believable foundation for this stance, I would have to take time to research actual Japanese traditions, views, and norms.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Action and the mode of accomplishing that action are two different things. Ignoring people does not accomplish the action; it only says how that action will/will not come out.

I'm not sure I understand. Even artists and great writers like C.S. Lewis took the ACTION of flat out ignoring what society deems their art should be like and how they should act towards certain art and just make their craft the way they see fit.

Because this is not about sales or marketability; this is about the human condition; about the human state of mind; about what we want audiences to think. People, by in large, are impressionable, so what impression will you feed them? That 'we consider this attractive, and it would be great if you did too?' If corporations thought deeply about the power they have to influence popular thought and what it means to influence popular thought in an aesthetic rather than substantive direction, I believe they would add an extra mile of caution before designing a character. Remember, most of them will likely value profits, and therefore consumer demands over the positive, deep messages their media can send. So to them, it would be a no-brainer to default to the widespread opinion that x, y, and z is attractive. "Widespread" is the keyword, and not 'all-encompassing.' It is widespread because of the subject of this very thread.

All the more reason they should be taking these kinds of complaints more towards professional modeling and beauty pageants that cause these kinds of mindsets to be widespread using real women instead of a being angry at a bunch of pixels on a screen of a woman that doesn't even exist that an artist and character designer made cuz they enjoyed it.

I shall not lie that it is somewhat laughable that someone would change the designs of a pre-existing character to match a perception about the culture to which a piece of art is directed (if it is not deemed insulting), but I would contest that it would be rightful to laugh at that artist, because what they essentially did that very thing-- laugh at a culture--. Also if one would laugh at a person for laughing at another person or persons, then somebody else ought to laugh at the one laughing at the one laughing, and so on.

Finally, phrases like 'unlike (insert nation)' can be very inflammatory. They are basically esteeming one culture or country over another, yet both consist of people, and no matter where you go, people are people, and carry their flawed ways with them. I am sure there are some things that are deplorable about Japanese customs that are not held by the U.S. (just as an example) as a 'national standard,' though even this would I argue since I personally do not believe one country or culture can genuinely boast above another without being hypocritical. However, to give a more believable foundation for this stance, I would have to take time to research actual Japanese traditions, views, and norms.

If you say something stupid, you deserve to be laughed at. Just end the cycle by NOT being stupid and learning from your mistakes but people are always going to be stupid and never learn, so the cycle continues.

It's not my fault America has a problem with a good number of its citizens being fat regardless of the statistics being comparative to another country. It would remain true even if I didn't point it out and gym teachers and health teachers as well as professionals in America continue to point this out. If they wanted to NOT live up to that flawed stereotype, all they'd have to do is eat better and get more exercise but it's also not my fault that according to the studies, Americans don't wanna do that.

 

[Doc Monocle]

I'm not sure I understand. Even artists and great writers like C.S. Lewis took the ACTION of flat out ignoring what society deems their art should be like and how they should act towards certain art and just make their craft the way they see fit.



All the more reason they should be taking these kinds of complaints more towards professional modeling and beauty pageants that cause these kinds of mindsets to be widespread using real women instead of a being angry at a bunch of pixels on a screen of a woman that doesn't even exist that an artist and character designer made cuz they enjoyed it.



If you say something stupid, you deserve to be laughed at. Just end the cycle by NOT being stupid and learning from your mistakes but people are always going to be stupid and never learn, so the cycle continues.

It's not my fault America has a problem with a good number of its citizens being fat regardless of the statistics being comparative to another country. It would remain true even if I didn't point it out and gym teachers and health teachers as well as professionals in America continue to point this out. If they wanted to NOT live up to that flawed stereotype, all they'd have to do is eat better and get more exercise but it's also not my fault that according to the studies, Americans don't wanna do that.

(I apologize for not quoting for easier navigation; I use a touch screen, and it is very frustrating attempting to highlight sections, so I shall try to be as specific as I can)

On the first point you made in the above message, I believe it would be a mistake to hold the work of an esteemed writer as a reason for doing or not doing something. Besides, I find such things as Chronicles of Narnia thematically questionable, so it would be difficult to reason with me on certain controversial artists like Lewis. Anyway, my point in saying that about passive and active is that ignoring people does not get your character designed; DESIGNING YOUR CHARACTER gets your character designed (however hilarious that sounds), you have simply decided that you will refuse to incorporate the wishes of those you choose to ignore into the character design, and that of itself is not wrong, but we are speaking of a very specific and controversial issue, which can be damaging to a person's psyche if they are not well-grounded. I believe it is with merit to take these individuals into consideration, especially if that means sacraficing some profit you would otherwise stand to gain.

Modeling and pageantry do not solve the problem, they only amplify it. The whole point is to resist the urge to be showy about our opinions of what is aesthetically good in regards to people, which are not commodities, and tend to place great value on what others (who no doubt are influenced by earlier exhibitions) think.

As far as not being stupid goes, let us face it, you would be miserable if you had to live the rest of your life with it in the back of your mind that if you ever do something stupid, others would have the right to laugh at you, and since humans are imperfect, they do things which are not perfect, and thus are 'relatively stupid,' and thereby grant others the 'relative right,' to laugh at them. I think we can be more free than this.

Finally, shall I bring up x and y again? No doubt because you are human, you have some flaw x that others, who might have flaw y, consider a reason to ridicule you to death, and the fact (since you like facts) is you know you have flaw x, but somehow you can't seem to weed it out of your character. The person with flaw y would then say, " Ya know, it aint my fault you have flaw x, and therefore suck, so let me have a good laugh! If you don't want that, stop having flaw x!"

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

you have simply decided that you will refuse to incorporate the wishes of those you choose to ignore into the character design, and that of itself is not wrong, but we are speaking of a very specific and controversial issue, which can be damaging to a person's psyche if they are not well-grounded. I believe it is with merit to take these individuals into consideration, especially if that means sacraficing some profit you would otherwise stand to gain.

Then that's their own fault for not seeking proper guidance and counseling. It's not a character designer's fault to take into account the feelings and thoughts of some random unknown individual. That's what psychiatrists are for.

I, for one, am not going to sacrifice my own fun and enjoyment and potential profit for some random stranger that never did anything for me. I'd only do that for donating to charity (which actually makes a difference to help people), not changing my art that I want to make.

Modeling and pageantry do not solve the problem, they only amplify it.

So again, whine about those instead of a video game.

As far as not being stupid goes, let us face it, you would be miserable if you had to live the rest of your life with it in the back of your mind that if you ever do something stupid, others would have the right to laugh at you, and since humans are imperfect, they do things which are not perfect, and thus are 'relatively stupid,' and thereby grant others the 'relative right,' to laugh at them. I think we can be more free than this.

Not really. I've said plenty of stupid and uneducated things myself before. However, I've still gone out of my way to learn more and avoid similar mistakes and become smarter because of it and make an effort to be LESS imperfect. Don't project your own fears and insecurities onto me.

Finally, shall I bring up x and y again? No doubt because you are human, you have some flaw x that others, who might have flaw y, consider a reason to ridicule you to death, and the fact (since you like facts) is you know you have flaw x, but somehow you can't seem to weed it out of your character. The person with flaw y would then say, " Ya know, it aint my fault you have flaw x, and therefore suck, so let me have a good laugh! If you don't want that, stop having flaw x!"

My own flaws certainly don't involve being overweight. I'm underweight, get plenty of exercise in the mornings and eat a ton of fruits and vegetables regularly.

The problem with that is that you assume I need someone else to tell me what's wrong with me as I have no self-awareness. I make an effort to acknowledge my own weaknesses and overcome them and I'm absolutely no one special. Just a random video game fanatic on a website dedicated to a Japanese crossover game that can do 7th grade level fact checking.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Then that's their own fault for not seeking proper guidance and counseling. It's not a character designer's fault to take into account the feelings and thoughts of some random unknown individual. That's what psychiatrists are for.

I, for one, am not going to sacrifice my own fun and enjoyment and potential profit for some random stranger that never did anything for me. I'd only do that for donating to charity (which actually makes a difference to help people), not changing my art that I want to make.



So again, whine about those instead of a video game.



Not really. I've said plenty of stupid and uneducated things myself before. However, I've still gone out of my way to learn more and avoid similar mistakes and become smarter because of it and make an effort to be LESS imperfect. Don't project your own fears and insecurities onto me.



My own flaws certainly don't involve being overweight. I'm underweight, get plenty of exercise in the mornings and eat a ton of fruits and vegetables regularly.

The problem with that is that you assume I need someone else to tell me what's wrong with me as I have no self-awareness. I make an effort to acknowledge my own weaknesses and overcome them and I'm absolutely no one special. Just a random video game fanatic on a website dedicated to a Japanese crossover game that can do 7th grade level fact checking.

(Responses 1&2 above) Do you have an imagination for a world where absolutely no one does a favor, a service for someone else unless the target has done done something good to them? No one would ever get assistance from strangers, or possibly even their own family without paying first, and not all can afford to do that. Even if they could, have you not ever been touched by someone who was kind, patient, etc. toward you though you did nothing for them? Alternatively, imagine being in trouble (big time) for something you did, and you see a hope of getting out of it, only for that hope to say, "It is not my fault you chose this way of living (or what have you)." Sometimes (if you ask me anyway) it is nice to be the recipient of a kind gesture that you do not deserve... Don't you think?

(Response 3 above) The reason I am 'whining' about modelling and pageantry is because you suggested it in response to something I said much earlier.

(Response 4 above) "Not Really..." Really? If you are not bothered by the prospect I put forth, then why bother making the effort not to make the mistake again.

(Response 5 above) You may not be overweight, but that is not the point. Also, I applaud you if you are willing to face with humility your weaknesses, but we are not discussing weaknesses as the central topic, we are discussing what we should do about those weaknesses; how we can help people who do not know how to help themselves. Is that not a worthy cause?

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

(Responses 1&2 above) Do you have an imagination for a world where absolutely no one does a favor, a service for someone else unless the target has done done something good to them? No one would ever get assistance from strangers, or possibly even their own family without paying first, and not all can afford to do that. Even if they could, have you not ever been touched by someone who was kind, patient, etc. toward you though you did nothing for them? Alternatively, imagine being in trouble (big time) for something you did, and you see a hope of getting out of it, only for that hope to say, "It is not my fault you chose this way of living (or what have you)." Sometimes (if you ask me anyway) it is nice to be the recipient of a kind gesture that you do not deserve... Don't you think?

Indeed and it would be nice to receive random unwarranted kindness via praise for creating art I put my heart, effort and soul into from a random stranger rather than said random stranger not supporting my work in the first place and demanding I change it just because of some petty reason that makes them uncomfortable.

Respect and kindness goes both ways. You want to be respected, then be respectFUL. Demanding change on someone's work of fiction that you don't intend to buy or support is not something worth respecting. They're certainly more than free to choose to be kind and expecting nothing in return by letting them be happy with the art they're creating and moving on with their own life. What's keeping them from doing that themselves or is only okay when the artist is told what to do?

(Response 4 above) "Not Really..." Really? If you are not bothered by the prospect I put forth, then why bother making the effort not to make the mistake again.

I DO make that effort because there's always room for improvement, mistakes are bound to happen and there's nothing wrong with reaching for the stars. I put more time into researching things and knowing what I talk about and admitting to when I'm ignorant about something because I know I don't know everything. You don't want to better yourself like I choose to make an effort towards, then that's your problem and not mine.

(Response 5 above) You may not be overweight, but that is not the point. Also, I applaud you if you are willing to face with humility your weaknesses, but we are not discussing weaknesses as the central topic, we are discussing what we should do about those weaknesses; how we can help people who do not know how to help themselves. Is that not a worthy cause?

We can recommend they get therapy which does more to actually help people and it's specifically for that rather than trying to control artists that are using forms of art to express their own ideas, thoughts and even weaknesses freely and therefore doesn't help anyone. Trying to control other people over trivial art and claiming that it's for the best intentions is not a worthy cause. It's totalitarianism.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Indeed and it would be nice to receive random unwarranted kindness via praise for creating art I put my heart, effort and soul into from a random stranger rather than said random stranger not supporting my work in the first place and demanding I change it just because of some petty reason that makes them uncomfortable.

Respect and kindness goes both ways. You want to be respected, then be respectFUL. Demanding change on someone's work of fiction that you don't intend to buy or support is not something worth respecting. They're certainly more than free to choose to be kind and expecting nothing in return by letting them be happy with the art they're creating and moving on with their own life. What's keeping them from doing that themselves or is only okay when the artist is told what to do?



I DO make that effort because there's always room for improvement, mistakes are bound to happen and there's nothing wrong with reaching for the stars. I put more time into researching things and knowing what I talk about and admitting to when I'm ignorant about something because I know I don't know everything. You don't want to better yourself like I choose to make an effort towards, then that's your problem and not mine.



We can recommend they get therapy which does more to actually help people and it's specifically for that rather than trying to control artists that are using forms of art to express their own ideas, thoughts and even weaknesses freely and therefore doesn't help anyone.

(Response 1 above) I, at least, am not demanding that any artist change anything; we should be able to live in a free world where such demands would not be obligatory. That is my view, so I would not even try to get someone who is proud of their work (and internally not bothered by conscience) to change anything to please me. I am simply promoting a point of view that says others are just as free, psychologically and otherwise, and ought to be encouraged to enjoy that freedom, if not actively and directly, then at least by showing sensitivity to people who simply want to have fun, and in the process are susceptible to being inundated with subtle (or overt) messages that maybe they are not good enough as they are; that they must change themselves to something 'better' in order to be accepted by society.

(Response 2 above) I always want to be better, so make no mistake. I was just making a point. WHY do you want to be better? It cannot be because of concern for the psychological, physical, spiritual well-being of another, or this debate would be quite brief. If you are not bothered by the idea of tension about making a mistake, then what other motivation is there?

(Response 3 above) That would certainly ignore a large number of people. Assuming that psychotherapists and other related 'mind doctors' truly knew what was good for their clients, not everyone can afford the time or money to become clients. To respond to someone by saying, "Get help, bro. I wish you the best," would be to shove them off and disregard that they have a problem that requires urgent attention, and that you (in the collective sense) can do something about.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

(Response 1 above) I, at least, am not demanding that any artist change anything; we should be able to live in a free world where such demands would not be obligatory. That is my view, so I would not even try to get someone who is proud of their work (and internally not bothered by conscience) to change anything to please me. I am simply promoting a point of view that says others are just as free, psychologically and otherwise, and ought to be encouraged to enjoy that freedom, if not actively and directly, then at least by showing sensitivity to people who simply want to have fun, and in the process are susceptible to being inundated with subtle (or overt) messages that maybe they are not good enough as they are; that they must change themselves to something 'better' in order to be accepted by society.

Or they can ignore it and move on without having to change anything. You aren't required to care about what society thinks if you aren't hurting anyone at the end of the day. If anything, it's a GOOD thing to not change according to society if it's something harmful. Like I said earlier, it's normal in American society to be a diabetic fatso that gets no exercise and has poor eating habits. I'm absolutely more than happy to NOT conform to society on that front.

(Response 2 above) I always want to be better, so make no mistake. I was just making a point. WHY do you want to be better? It cannot be because of concern for the psychological, physical, spiritual well-being of another, or this debate would be quite brief. If you are not bothered by the idea of tension about making a mistake, then what other motivation is there?

It's called self-confidence, self-awareness and humility. You can be the best you. Trying to control other people is the exact opposite of thinking of another's psychological, physical, spiritual well-being. Stop trying to hide the guise of controlling others as empathy, otherwise you'd be thinking of them just as well.

(Response 3 above) That would certainly ignore a large number of people. Assuming that psychotherapists and other related 'mind doctors' truly knew what was good for their clients, not everyone can afford the time or money to become clients. To respond to someone by saying, "Get help, bro. I wish you the best," would be to shove them off and disregard that they have a problem that requires urgent attention, and that you (in the collective sense) can do something about.

You can call therapists for free and it takes only a few seconds to find a number. No excuses. I'm not going to pretend I know anything about human psychology if I'm completely ignorant on the topic any more than you would hire some random hobo on the street and pay them $5,000 to do your dental work rather than consulting a qualified professional because relying on an ignorant person is just asking for unreliable results that can do more harm than good.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Or they can ignore it and move on without having to change anything. You aren't required to care about what society thinks if you aren't hurting anyone at the end of the day. If anything, it's a GOOD thing to not change according to society if it's something harmful. Like I said earlier, it's normal in American society to be a diabetic fatso that gets no exercise and has poor eating habits. I'm absolutely more than happy to NOT conform to society on that front.



It's called self-confidence, self-awareness and humility. You can be the best you. Trying to control other people is the exact opposite of thinking of another's psychological, physical, spiritual well-being. Stop trying to hide the guise of controlling others as empathy, otherwise you'd be thinking of them just as well.



You can call therapists for free and it takes only a few seconds to find a number. No excuses. I'm not going to pretend I know anything about human psychology if I'm completely ignorant on the topic any more than you would hire some random hobo on the street and pay them $5,000 to do your dental work rather than consulting a qualified professional because relying on an ignorant person is just asking for unreliable results that can do more harm than good.

(Response 1 above): You are right, nobody is required to do anything; anything they do is of their own free will, that is all I can ask for. Also, while it may be normal to be overweight in America, even Americans idolize body types that are slender, toned, etc., and envy after it, looking down on others who are not like that, and it is not that there are no healthy and fit Americans, so when everyone else is exposed to that, they cannot help (thanks to brainwashing) but think they are inferior in some way. It is not to say it is bad to be healthy, but is there nothing greater to value?

(Response 2 above): Why do you need self-confidence? According to you there is nothing to be bothered about. Why do you need self-awareness? According to you it is "called self-confidence!" Why do you need humility? According to you, it does not matter what anyone (or certain people) thinks, but if you are still arguing with me, then clearly what you think counts. Thus you would automatically be elevated above SOMEONE, and therefore have not any reason to lower yourself. If you say it is better to lower yourself, then what are you doing up there where you put yourself by ignoring others' opinions? Finally, I AM thinking of them too. They are part of the population like everyone else. The population consists of people, and my argument is about people, who are capable of being both victim, and perpetrator.

(Response 3 above) Are you saying that you can prepare a young person for life in a few seconds, or minutes, or hours, or days? Are there doctors that are willing to counsel you for that long for free? Hmm... Maybe I should call and get my life straightened out! It is free right, and my meals and all other worries are taken care of while I am having sessions, right? By the way, about hiring someone ignorant, remember that I said we are to ASSUME the 'mind doctor' in question knows what they are doing.

 

[Ben Holt]

Partial nudity, full nudity, cleavage, eroticism, etc. are not sexist.
It's reducing females to just their sex appeal that's sexist, unless the piece of media is clearly marketed as a sexual stimulant.

For example, I'd argue that Peach in most Mario games is more "sexist" than Bayonetta despite the latter being intentionally sexualized.
Granted, games are a product of their time, and the Mario series has done a better job of portraying Peach as Mario's friend rather than a piece of ass that is your reward for beating the game. But in the 80s, Peach WAS just an object, a reward, a piece of ass.
Bayonetta, however, is sexy, but that's PART of her character, not her whole character, which validates her.

Now to explain my caveat. Characters CAN be reduced to sex objects IF that's the point of the media. Super Mario Bros. is rated E, so it can teach kids about gender roles, and Peach is portrayed as just an object, so that's problematic.
But as adults, people are mature enough to express their sexuality, so take the big new Mobile game, "King's Throne: Game of Lust." The ads are literally just women shaking their boobies, but that's ok, because sex is a theme of that game, and allowing men to fantasize is is not sexist. It's just... well, lust.

So no, Samus's swimsuit is not sexist, as it in no way reduces Samus down to an object.
Just like Sephiroth. He's sexy, but his entire character is not reduced to just his cut abs.

I hope this convoluted explanation made sense.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Partial nudity, full nudity, cleavage, eroticism, etc. are not sexist.
It's reducing females to just their sex appeal that's sexist, unless the piece of media is clearly marketed as a sexual stimulant.

For example, I'd argue that Peach in most Mario games is more "sexist" than Bayonetta despite the latter being intentionally sexualized.
Granted, games are a product of their time, and the Mario series has done a better job of portraying Peach as Mario's friend rather than a piece of ass that is your reward for beating the game. But in the 80s, Peach WAS just an object, a reward, a piece of ass.
Bayonetta, however, is sexy, but that's PART of her character, not her whole character, which validates her.

Now to explain my caveat. Characters CAN be reduced to sex objects IF that's the point of the media. Super Mario Bros. is rated E, so it can teach kids about gender roles, and Peach is portrayed as just an object, so that's problematic.
But as adults, people are mature enough to express their sexuality, so take the big new Mobile game, "King's Throne: Game of Lust." The ads are literally just women shaking their boobies, but that's ok, because sex is a theme of that game, and allowing men to fantasize is is not sexist. It's just... well, lust.

So no, Samus's swimsuit is not sexist, as it in no way reduces Samus down to an object.
Just like Sephiroth. He's sexy, but his entire character is not reduced to just his cut abs.

I hope this convoluted explanation made sense.

As I was explaining to DrCoeloCephalo some time earlier, this debate is about societal impacts. There is nothing inherently wrong with exposed skin (at the most fundamental level of reasoning anyway); we are naturally built with skin. There is nothing inherently wrong with tight clothing; your skin is tight clothing! The problem is that when you broadcast something that, by general consensus, is used to tell people they ought to be something they are not, or dress in a way they do not, and to excite people unnaturally, you sanction the practice of exhibitionism, which holds at its core an unshaken belief that it is acceptable to make a flirtatious spectacle of themselves in order to gain the admiration of another person, rather than letting that person have time to think about what their senses are telling them about the one exhibiting themselves. In a world where reckless decisions can cost a person their life or their health, that would make for a grave mistake.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

(Response 1 above): You are right, nobody is required to do anything; anything they do is of their own free will, that is all I can ask for. Also, while it may be normal to be overweight in America, even Americans idolize body types that are slender, toned, etc., and envy after it, looking down on others who are not like that, and it is not that there are no healthy and fit Americans, so when everyone else is exposed to that, they cannot help (thanks to brainwashing) but think they are inferior in some way. It is not to say it is bad to be healthy, but is there nothing greater to value?

Your life? Being fat comes with more health risks that can cause death. That's a fact. Your arteries and cholesterol levels aren't exactly going to value your personality when they give you heart failure.

(Response 2 above): Why do you need self-confidence? According to you there is nothing to be bothered about. Why do you need self-awareness? According to you it is "called self-confidence!" Why do you need humility? According to you, it does not matter what anyone (or certain people) thinks, but if you are still arguing with me, then clearly what you think counts. Thus you would automatically be elevated above SOMEONE, and therefore have not any reason to lower yourself. If you say it is better to lower yourself, then what are you doing up there where you put yourself by ignoring others' opinions? Finally, I AM thinking of them too. They are part of the population like everyone else. The population consists of people, and my argument is about people, who are capable of being both victim, and perpetrator.

Because I want to be the change I want to see. Nothing pisses me off more than some weakling that whines about something and does nothing about it and expects others to change rather than improve themself and make an effort to make an actual difference. I'm already some random video game fanatic who's nothing special that apparently does more than you can. I already pointed that out. This is hardly an argument as much as it seems you just having a problem with how I choose to better myself but if you're seriously implying that you yourself have nothing of value to say, then I'd agree.

Then maybe you should do something that actually makes a difference instead of arguing on a video game forums site. That's clearly where your own lack of self-awareness is coming in.

(Response 3 above) Are you saying that you can prepare a young person for life in a few seconds, or minutes, or hours, or days? Are there doctors that are willing to counsel you for that long for free? Hmm... Maybe I should call and get my life straightened out! It is free right, and my meals and all other worries are taken care of while I am having sessions, right? By the way, about hiring someone ignorant, remember that I said we are to ASSUME the 'mind doctor' in question knows what they are doing.

I'm personally far more willing to trust a qualified professional about the human mind whose number was put on said roster of experts to begin with than some unknown stranger on a video game forum site that, as far as I can tell, has zero credentials in the field.

In a world where reckless decisions can cost a person their life or their health, that would make for a grave mistake.

That decision falls on the individual, not the media. Take responsibility for your own actions. This is as stupid as the old "video games make people violent" nonsense that was already disproven.

 

[Doc Monocle]

(Response 1 above) If you know of the renowned fitness instructor Bob Harper, then you have solid evidence that peak physical condition is not the determinant of what will happen to you. Suppose you were the healthiest person in the whole world... and then, after the manner of Harper, you sustained a heart attack, however, it costed you your life. Your health, your wealth, and your ideals will then make no difference to you. The question then becomes, what then? Is there something afterwards that is affected by your decisions while alive? Your response to this question determines whether I shall have anything to say on this bullet.

(Response 2 above) Consider carefully what you said here. It means you do care what others think. In this case, I refer you to earlier points in our discussion. If you deny again, then I shall not condemn you. I shall simply say you have won on this bullet.

(Response 3 above) Of course, it sounds like you are alluding to me, and I cannot fault you for that. I really AM not a certified therapist, psychologist, or anything like that. I could not say anything if you genunely trust these experts in their respective fields, in which case, this bullet is cleared, and you have won here too.

(Response 4 above) "Take responsibility for your own actions." I could not have said it better myself. I should take responsibility for my own actions. If I contribute to someone's well being, hooray, but if I contribute to someone's downfall, then as you have said, I must take RESPONSIBILITY for that, whether I know it now... or later. You have held your position all from the beginning, and I have held mine. I concede that you have won. It has been a pleasure debating with you, sir.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

On a related note to the actual thread, I'm starting to respect Top Hat Studios for choosing to make sexy women designs in their and making it clear whom they're NOT going to listen to.

We originally did not want to make this post, as to not accidentally incite a search for these posters and cause further fights. However, as there are now industry-adjacent people slandering/gaslighting us as liars, we've compiled a sampling from twitter, FB, and email. (1/5) pic.twitter.com/TJlNS4tWTd

— Top Hat Studios, Inc. (@TopHatStudiosEN) January 2, 2021

 

[Oracle Link]

Also why Nintendo their designs have very little Sexualization on Man and Woman i mean the only time zelda is more "round" is when she looks pretty similar to link

she outside of Botw has no curves and barely sexualization

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Nintendo designs have very little sexualization.

 

[Oracle Link]

her breasts are not oversized and she wears a dress that covers her body

Shes still sexy i gues but not oversexualixed

 

[JOJONumber691]

Pauline was created in 1981 and Mario has never received a Continuity Reboot with Pauline as a Major Character, since Mario vs Donkey Kong is Main Mario, and she has never appeared in Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi.

 

[Oracle Link]

Also speaking of sexism for every women complaining about how sexist free shoulders are how would you feel being the Bad guys in 90% of fiction

 

[Sucumbio]

Krystal.

Is she attractive to some gamers? Yes. Why? I don't know. May have something to do with animation styles with melding the human female form with non human elements.

Inkling. Is she attractive to some gamers? Yes Why? I don't know. May have something to do with animation styles taken in by Western audiences who note the sexy librarian outfit, those hips and sassy poses...on a what, 10 year old?

Bayonetta. Is she attractive to some gamers? Yes. Why? I don't know. Could be all the ferocity.. more likely the animation style ..................

 

[Oracle Link]

Krystal.

Is she attractive to some gamers? Yes. Why? I don't know. May have something to do with animation styles with melding the human female form with non human elements.

Inkling. Is she attractive to some gamers? Yes Why? I don't know. May have something to do with animation styles taken in by Western audiences who note the sexy librarian outfit, those hips and sassy poses...on a what, 10 year old?

Bayonetta. Is she attractive to some gamers? Yes. Why? I don't know. Could be all the ferocity.. more likely the animation style ..................

Yeah but attractive ness is diffrent from oversexualization also technicly inkling isnt a Character its you the player so no matter how old they are it doesnt really count also they are teenagers

 

[JOJONumber691]

Inklings are 14 but if it was really sexist, then why do people also draw porn of the Inkling Boys then as well.

 

[Oracle Link]

and even in reality boys need to work harder than girls to be sexy so it even makes some sense
I mean having breasts and butt just happens with some girls while Muscle are quite difficult to achieve

Boys under 20 just look more Gender Neutral believe me im just now growing a beard

 

[Sucumbio]

Keeping it real, that's good...

All of this talk is the result of ever shifting norms and none of you are wrong. My point was that the discussion topic itself is almost moot, or at least is misguided.

The topic is really about art, which since cave days is about glorifying the human form in one way or another. In modern Japan, this has resulted in what Western countries perceive as sexist or otherwise inappropriate renditions or storytelling motifs.

As for why attraction is important... We need only remember which cartoon character we thought was attractive as children, not that everyone experiences this mind you. Maybe it's a pro wrestler! As we age we catalog subconsciously our desired traits and seek them out when forming bonds. Art allows us to hone our sense of desired traits. Be it music, movies or podcasts art inspires us, challenges us and guides us toward better understanding of ourselves. And so marketers whose job is to crack your personal secret code of what you only know subconsciously -what is it to be desirable - ends up becoming a chicken and the egg scenerio. Marketers have been using sex to sell products for almost as long as art's been around. And this has made the relationship impossible to break. Unless you live in a bubble media will help influence your desires and you will defend them when necessary.

 

[Deleted member]

Krystal.

Is she attractive to some gamers? Yes. Why?

Furries, that's why

It does apply to the entire star fox cast to an extent too but Krystal being the one most revealing and also female means she bears the brunt of it

 

[Resolve_beta]

To be honest everyone, I think that we should remove all labels to female and male, there are so many people who arn't trying new things and playing sports bc they are a girl and to me thats absolute bull. We sterotype too much and that should stop. To me character design isn't too much of a problem in smash it is a e +10 game after all. But to say that girls cant play video games or some **** u need to take a seat.

 

[Ben Holt]

Technically, adult women are the largest demographic for video games, contrary to popular belief.

Video games: More women play now than teen boys do, millennials and boomers play, too

Enjoying video games isn't exclusively for pre-pubescent boys or millennials. The term "gamer" includes many of us across generations and genders.

www.usatoday.com

 

[drag0nscythe]

Technically, adult women are the largest demographic for video games, contrary to popular belief.

Video games: More women play now than teen boys do, millennials and boomers play, too

Enjoying video games isn't exclusively for pre-pubescent boys or millennials. The term "gamer" includes many of us across generations and genders.

www.usatoday.com

What are they playing? Article made it sound like they were mobile gamers. If that is the case, not a very good comparison to demographics. Are there any stats on them jumping to console gaming? that is the interesting question.

 

[Ben Holt]

What are they playing? Article made it sound like they were mobile gamers. If that is the case, not a very good comparison to demographics. Are there any stats on them jumping to console gaming? that is the interesting question.

From 2018:

Source: https://www.nintendotimes.com/2019/...lving-demographics-of-nintendo-switch-owners/

 

[drag0nscythe]

From 2018:
View attachment 315328
Source: https://www.nintendotimes.com/2019/...lving-demographics-of-nintendo-switch-owners/

That is good. but it is 50/50 from the article. So not predominantly female. I wonder if there are any sales stats on games the different demographics purchase.

 

[Oracle Link]

What are they playing? Article made it sound like they were mobile gamers. If that is the case, not a very good comparison to demographics. Are there any stats on them jumping to console gaming? that is the interesting question.

Match 3 and puzzles hm did you think about that maybe girls like these Games i mean nobody would hate a Woman if she would play core Games and there are A lot of Core games Directed towards Woman (im not saying more just a lot)

 

[drag0nscythe]

You say we should remove Labels and than say WOMAN DONT TRY NEW THINGS?
MUUUUUCH more Women play Videogames and play Sports than Man doing Girly stuf heck my pants right now get holes and yet i cant wear a plain skirt because its too "girly" even tho it may fix this problem

Match 3 and puzzles hm did you think about that maybe girls like these Games i mean nobody would hate a Woman if she would play core Games and there are A lot of Core games Directed towards Woman (im not saying more just a lot)

Knowing the demographics is important. If people make the claim that 70% of all gamers are now female, but the divide is still 50/50 for those playing console gaming, and further that there is a 70/30 male bias for games in the rogue-like market for example, then the demographics for that game genre are not the supposed 70% female. It would be the opposite. Companies play to their markets.

For the larger topic at hand. I dont think there is sexism in smash bros. Characters are designed to match the way they were in their respective series and if people are mad because of Pyra/Mythra, then they are being silly. Women come in all shapes and sizes, and some people expecting them to look like boards with wigs is annoying. Unless I am missing some details.

 

[Oracle Link]

Knowing the demographics is important. If people make the claim that 70% of all gamers are now female, but the divide is still 50/50 for those playing console gaming, and further that there is a 70/30 male bias for games in the rogue-like market for example, then the demographics for that game genre are not the supposed 70% female. It would be the opposite. Companies play to their markets.

For the larger topic at hand. I dont think there is sexism in smash bros. Characters are designed to match the way they were in their respective series and if people are mad because of Pyra/Mythra, then they are being silly. Women come in all shapes and sizes, and some people expecting them to look like boards with wigs is annoying. Unless I am missing some details.

I 100% agree!