Sexism in smash bros in general and character design:

[Empoleon_master]

As I recently slightly derailed a thread about Kells/super awesome, female, competitive Sonic main I can't remember the name of for the life of me, to rant about sexism in general and character design I decided to create this thread to stop said derailing at the suggestion of someone with a Ganondorf avatar. (I am sorry, I can't remember your name, I am HORRIBLE with names, I remember avatars better though.)

Some ground rules for this thread:

1: No joking sexism PERIOD! This will not be tolerated/you will be ripped a new one by one of the many awesome people that will not take sexism here.
2: If you have to say something sexist like I KNOW will be posted here. Limit it to Diet Sexism, which is like this video for Diet Racism but with sexism. Warning language/mentions of what letter certain offensive words begin with and you know racism. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdyin6uipy4

3: This topic is for discussing BOTH sexism in the smash community/gaming community as a whole ie female/non male players getting crap for not being a guy (which you know CLEARLY limits how much ******** they can kick in tournaments) AND sexism in Smash character design such as half of ZSS's costumes showing too much skin and unless her chest has its own hit box it should NOT be that big.



Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits have to show so much skin that she could easily be a stand in for a waitress at the more famously sexist "resuaunt" that I will not name as I think it's name is too sexist/sexually charged to be posted here. This is basically like having Captain Falcon, little mac, and Link wearing a speedo, it's not comfortable for them, but it's still what they would have to deal with being thought of every time mentioned their name.

 

[gmBottles]

Sexy designs aren't a bad thing. It's human nature to enjoy this kind of thing, is it wrong to be human now? Jeez, people just have to find anything to be offended about nowadays, huh? Maybe Samus is the kind of person to like wearing those kinds of clothes. You know, there are people who enjoy flaunting what they've got, and while it isn't canon that she is that kind of person in any way whatsoever, it also is never really specified that she isn't, so who knows?

But the more important issue here is sexism in general. For the most part, I agree. Sexism is bad. Everyone knows that. However, it isn't like it is rampant in the Smash community other than in places where it was already present regardless (ie Twitch chat and similar media, something I never really enjoyed anyways). It isn't that women are being excluded, it's that they, generally, don't enjoy things like video games as much as men.

Also I'm fairly certain that there is already a fairly active thread for the exact same thing, so look around and use the search function before making a new thread.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You mean like Shulk showing off that beautiful bishi bod? The alternate costumes are essentially the only real variations you can make on ZSS. They're based off the win screens for Metroid, and are done quite tastefully IMHO. I don't see a problem with this.

 

[MattyMutt]

It isn't that women are being excluded, it's that they, generally, don't enjoy things like video games as much as men.

I really don't buy that. Video games weren't always such a male dominated hobby. Back when video games were a relatively new phenomenon, there was quite a significant chunk of female gamers and developers. It was only when video games began being marketed more to young boys than to families, and that a culture began to form around the video games that the female audience started to evaporate. I don't suppose you think that's just a coincidence? Besides, how does that claim begin to make any sense? I want to see evidence other than boy vs girl population for why having a vagoo inherently makes you less interested in video games. Until I see that, I am not convinced that this is the reason for the almost total absence of women in smash.

Look, I can understand where you're coming from. I would have said the same thing less than a year ago I'm sure. But you have to realize that when somebody is claiming that video games or the gaming community are sexist, they're not suggesting that there's some grand plot to purposely exclude women from gaming, or that there's even any kind of intentional element to it all. They are only trying to say that gaming is hostile towards women. It's not any one person's fault, and I don't think think that anybody in the smash community or video gaming in general is a bad person because of it.

It's no secret that women are objectified more often than men in video games, looking at any fighting game roster from the last five or ten years will tell you that much. While it's on its way out the door since we're getting more "e-sports", there is a lot of problematic language in the smash community, particularly the obnoxious overuse of the word that rhymes with "grape". You mentioned it earlier, the twitch chat explodes the moment a "gril" appears on screen, and honestly that's not the only place that sort of thing happens. Because women are so few and far between in smash now they've become a spectacle. Nobody wants to be a freakin' side show event when you're just trying to play smash and have fun. On top of that, I've read more than one story about women coming to smash tournaments and receiving poor treatment from both attendees and TO's. Of course none of these things are meant to keep women out of smash on purpose, and on their own probably wouldn't matter all that much, but all of these things combined starts to send a very clear message whether we mean it or not, that this is a boys only club.

 

[gmBottles]

I understand your points and for the most part I really do agree. But let me make another point in regards to objectification in games.

Men are objectified too. Big hulking brutes of men with hues of brown and muscles of steel. Not very realistic huh? And the same goes for women with their flashy outfits and sexualized character design. And I personally don't see an issue with that, it is what it is and it is only human nature to enjoy these things.

I suppose that's besides the point though. I think that if gaming is something that they are passionate about and they love, they will play and enjoy their favorite hobby regardless of what others think. If they aren't willing to participate in something they love so much just because a few assholes think they shouldn't, they probably simply don't have as much of a passion for it as we think. Unless they are really so weak minded that the opinions of others can make them drop what they enjoy, I really don't think there's such an epidemic. However, like I said, I do mostly agree with you and I think there is room for improvement.

 

[Plunder]

Who plays videogames? Who mostly buys videogames?
Who is playing Smash games? Who is buying Smash games?

Males. This still hasn't really changed, a massive majority are still guys that buy and play these games. You make games for the 95% of people that will play them, not to pander to the 5% that are SJWs or feminists. That's how the world works, that's how it's always worked. To deny this or claim that smash and video games is a 50/50 activity would be silly.

Also women have been objectified since the dawn of time. The hot attractive feminine women don't mind (in fact most prefer the perks and attention that society affords them), while the homely unattractive women complain about it. I don't see this changing anytime soon, it's just how humans are. Women, even among themselves can't decide on which side to take.

 

[MattyMutt]

Who plays videogames? Who mostly buys videogames?
Who is playing Smash games? Who is buying Smash games?

Males. This still hasn't really changed, a massive majority are still guys that buy and play these games. You make games for the 95% of people that will play them, not to pander to the 5% that are SJWs or feminists. That's how the world works, that's how it's always worked. To deny this or claim that smash and video games is a 50/50 activity would be silly.

You obviously didn't read my post. What makes you so certain that video games and smash are male dominated simply because men are somehow predisposed to video games? Where is the evidence that being born with lady parts makes you not interested or less
good at video games? That doesn't make any sense. People like you who make claims like that are complacent and refuse to acknowledge that there might be something wrong with gaming, because having to be aware of it and trying to make it better is a personal inconvenience to you. You don't want to deal with it, but you don't want to seem like a bad person, so you pretend that the problem doesn't exist and that's just the way things are. Well, I don't believe you. I've never once seen any kind of evidence to back up this claim, and I'm tired of people saying it like it's gospel.

Also women have been objectified since the dawn of time. The hot attractive feminine women don't mind (in fact most prefer the perks and attention that society affords them), while the homely unattractive women complain about it. I don't see this changing anytime soon, it's just how humans are. Women, even among themselves can't decide on which side to take.

Are you for real? Yeah, I'm sure hot, all attractive women love being ogled, treated like a piece of meat, catcalled, harassed. Because you're an authority on women right? Those silly women, always squabbling amongst themselves! Good thing a big strong man like you is here to set the record straight, right? Jesus Christ.

 

[Plunder]

Are you for real? Yeah, I'm sure hot, all attractive women love being ogled, treated like a piece of meat, catcalled, harassed. Because you're an authority on women right? Those silly women, always squabbling amongst themselves! Good thing a big strong man like you is here to set the record straight, right? Jesus Christ.

In time you will see that I'm 100% correct, this is the brutal truth. A great example is Women's magazines and how they are airbrushed and they sensationalize the skinny fit feminine woman as the ideal. Who makes these magazines? Women or Gay men.....not straight men (most straight men don't even think those are the ideal women). Who are the first the talk crap behind another woman's back? Women. Who are the first to put down a feminist or different women in a community? Women (especially in high school). I don't see those trophy wives and gold diggers complaining about anything, every woman in the world is not a hardcore feminist that hates the way things are....that side is what keeps things they way they are.

Look I'm guessing you are a furry by your avatar.... don't you think that obviously destroys your credibility and any "viewpoint" you might have on normal women. Any sane person would realize that, sorry but that is also a truth (you no doubt probably don't see it).

The first part of your post has nothing to do with anything I said. But it's very very true that women are less interested in videogames, just like it's very very true that men are less interested in Barbie dolls and Broadway musicals. Hate to break it to you kid but *spoiler alert* Women and Men are different and they like different things. I wish women were into smash and VGs just as much but that's not the reality we live in, it's extremely ignorant and foolish to believe otherwise. What exactly are you "trying to make better"? Are you also really really upset that Men don't go to ballets or watch soap operas? "Jesus Christ"

 

[MattyMutt]

In time you will see that I'm 100% correct, this is the brutal truth. A great example is Women's magazines and how they are airbrushed and they sensationalize the skinny fit feminine woman as the ideal. Who makes these magazines? Women or Gay men.....not straight men (most straight men don't even think those are the ideal women). Who are the first the talk crap behind another woman's back? Women. Who are the first to put down a feminist or different women in a community? Women (especially in high school). I don't see those trophy wives and gold diggers complaining about anything, every woman in the world is not a hardcore feminist that hates the way things are....that side is what keeps things they way they are.

Look I'm guessing you are a furry by your avatar.... don't you think that obviously destroys your credibility and any "viewpoint" you might have on normal women. Any sane person would realize that, sorry but that is also a truth (you no doubt probably don't see it).

The first part of your post has nothing to do with anything I said. But it's very very true that women are less interested in videogames, just like it's very very true that men are less interested in Barbie dolls and Broadway musicals. Hate to break it to you kid but *spoiler alert* Women and Men are different and they like different things. I wish women were into smash and VGs just as much but that's not the reality we live in, it's extremely ignorant and foolish to believe otherwise. What exactly are you "trying to make better"? Are you also really really upset that Men don't go to ballets or watch soap operas? "Jesus Christ"

I am 100% certain that you're an ignorant ass. I'm not even going to bother to address what's wrong with the sweeping generalizations and overtly sexist remarks littering your post, (not to mention the rather lame ad homimem attack, as if an interest in anthropomorphic animals has anything to do with the validity of my argument, lmao) and instead I'm going to ask you to stop and think for a moment, and maybe try and see if you can look past your own nose. Why do you suppose that, very generally speaking, men like video games and sports and women like ballets and soap operas? Is it genetic? Y'know, somehow I really doubt it.Mostly because uh...oh, I dunno. Those things haven't even existed for more than a couple decades at the least, and a couple centuries at the most? You've taken a history class before right? I'm sure you're aware that different times and places have vastly different cultures and values, and subsequently different roles and expectations for the sexes? Of course there is a genetic element to it, and nobody is suggesting that men and women are identical, but come on dude! It's not in your blood to like video games, chances are that a big reason that you do like video games is because society told you that it was okay and normal for you to like video games. Why? Because somebody decided it was supposed to be that way. Gender roles are almost entirely relative to the place and time that you live. Your biological sex has got very little to do with it.

 

[gmBottles]

I am 100% certain that you're an ignorant ***. I'm not even going to bother to address what's wrong with the sweeping generalizations and overtly sexist remarks littering your post, (not to mention the rather lame ad homimem attack, as if an interest in anthropomorphic animals has anything to do with the validity of my argument, lmao) and instead I'm going to ask you to stop and think for a moment, and maybe try and see if you can look past your own nose. Why do you suppose that, very generally speaking, men like video games and sports and women like ballets and soap operas? Is it genetic? Y'know, somehow I really doubt it.Mostly because uh...oh, I dunno. Those things haven't even existed for more than a couple decades at the least, and a couple centuries at the most? You've taken a history class before right? I'm sure you're aware that different times and places have vastly different cultures and values, and subsequently different roles and expectations for the sexes? Of course there is a genetic element to it, and nobody is suggesting that men and women are identical, but come on dude! It's not in your blood to like video games, chances are that a big reason that you do like video games is because society told you that it was okay and normal for you to like video games. Why? Because somebody decided it was supposed to be that way. Gender roles are almost entirely relative to the place and time that you live. Your biological sex has got very little to do with it.

While I don't agree with the aggressive route Plunder took, he's very right. There have been studies that show, from birth, males and females have different preferences. Newborns will choose different toys by themselves based on their sex, because that's just what they prefer more.

I don't really see why this is a problem. Shouldn't it be a good thing that men are different from women? It adds variety and makes the sexes unique from each other.

 

[Plunder]

I regret my aggressive tone as well, I apologize. It's about the debate not the debaters.

I wanted to add a 3 more things.

You have to remember where Smash is made and most of the VGs that are brought up in these kind of SJW debates. Japan - If you know about their culture then you would know what a farce these kinds of discussions are. They are far more open with sexuality, the women over there are far more submissive and still follow older females stereotypes, they are more ok with being objectified and admired, they are far more misogynistic as a society. It's not our responsibility to impose our culture on them whether we disapprove or agree.

I have my B.S. and M.S. in Electrical Engineering. Guess what the Man to Woman Ratio was in those classes were? 100 :1.......I wish it wasn't that way but those are the facts. It was a sausage fest. Competitive gaming is VERY similar.

When a chick has no attatchments and sleeps around because she is comfortable with her sexuality guess who will be the first to call her a s1ut to her face and behind her back? Other women. Guys actually don't care (if you think they do....you watch too many movies), in fact I'm sure we all prefer a woman who is more free with their sexuality. For guys it's ok to be sluts, I don't think any sane man would object to women being more open with their sexuality also. There should never be a fear of being "s1ut-shamed" or being bullied for being comfortable with sex. Of course there are extremes you shouldn't take it too, but that goes for both sexes obviously.

 

[Zink Imp]

Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits have to show so much skin that she could easily be a stand in for a waitress at the more famously sexist "resuaunt" that I will not name as I think it's name is too sexist/sexually charged to be posted here. This is basically like having Captain Falcon, little mac, and Link wearing a speedo, it's not comfortable for them, but it's still what they would have to deal with being thought of every time mentioned their name.

They are costumes from Metroid Fusion and Metroid Zero Mission. I like them because it shows Samus in a different environment and it gives subtle details about her character.

The Metroid universe is very...empty. There's never been a lot of story in the games and I was always kind of curious about the world Samus lived in. There were always references to other planets and civilizations in the manuals, but rarely were they shown in the game.

That's why I really like the costumes. Take a look at the one from Zero Mission:

http://metroid.retropixel.net/games/metroidzm/mzm_ending5.gif

Samus is always fighting for her life. I think this is the first time, among only a few other times, Samus is seen not doing her work. Look at her posture and face. She's relaxed and enjoying herself. She has a life outside of being a bounty hunter. That's why I think the costumes are great. They aren't sexist at all, they're a stylized fashion that could only exist in a science fiction setting. Is it wrong that she is showing skin?

They were added to Smash as a bonus. Samus doesn't wear a whole lot of other outfits, so there really only was these clothes that the designers could choose from. Plus this is a game where canon and story doesn't exist, so there's more freedom for the designers.

Japan - If you know about their culture then you would know what a farce these kinds of discussions are. They are far more open with sexuality, the women over there are far more submissive and still follow older females stereotypes, they are more ok with being objectified and admired, they are far more misogynistic as a society. It's not our responsibility to impose our culture on them whether we disapprove or agree.

Although I'm Caucasian, I have lived in Japan and my aunt, through marriage, is Japanese. There are plenty of feminists in Japan akin to Western societies like America. It is true that there is a stereotype of female housewives in Japan, but they are declining. Japan is actually in a bit of a crisis because birth rates are at an all time low, and show no real signs of improving. More women in Japan are taking full time jobs and only seek relationships based around sexual encounters. Marriage rates are also going down, while percentages of married couples without children are increasing. This is because there is a mentality that women don't want to flaunt themselves or be admired anymore. This doesn't apply to every women, but given the crisis Japan is in, it is certainly taking a hold on much of the country.

 

[Plunder]

Although I'm Caucasian, I have lived in Japan and my aunt, through marriage, is Japanese. There are plenty of feminists in Japan akin to Western societies like America. It is true that there is a stereotype of female housewives in Japan, but they are declining. Japan is actually in a bit of a crisis because birth rates are at an all time low, and show no real signs of improving. More women in Japan are taking full time jobs and only seek relationships based around sexual encounters. Marriage rates are also going down, while percentages of married couples without children are increasing. This is because there is a mentality that women don't want to flaunt themselves or be admired anymore. This doesn't apply to every women, but given the crisis Japan is in, it is certainly taking a hold on much of the country.

For some reason you quoted Matty under what I had said.

This is partially true but not to the degree it is anywhere else like the US or Europe. Not even close. A lot of the young to middle aged Japanese women are still brought up in old traditions and are proud of it. I lived in Japan recently with my Nana, and had been stationed there with my parents for a while when I was younger.

The birth and marriage crisis is a perfect example of how it's not improving or changing at all. The women may be changing, but the men certainly are not. In fact Japanese men are going in the complete opposite direction, and remember Men make up like 95% the critical creative and programming process of most video games. So they control the mindshare and the final output. The older men are carrying super old traditions and viewpoints and the younger men are getting warped ideas of females from fictional and virtual sources.

 

[MattyMutt]

I regret my aggressive tone as well, I apologize. It's about the debate not the debaters.

I wanted to add a 3 more things.

You have to remember where Smash is made and most of the VGs that are brought up in these kind of SJW debates. Japan - If you know about their culture then you would know what a farce these kinds of discussions are. They are far more open with sexuality, the women over there are far more submissive and still follow older females stereotypes, they are more ok with being objectified and admired, they are far more misogynistic as a society. It's not our responsibility to impose our culture on them whether we disapprove or agree.

I have my B.S. and M.S. in Electrical Engineering. Guess what the Man to Woman Ratio was in those classes were? 100 :1.......I wish it wasn't that way but those are the facts. It was a sausage fest. Competitive gaming is VERY similar.

When a chick has no attatchments and sleeps around because she is comfortable with her sexuality guess who will be the first to call her a s1ut to her face and behind her back? Other women. Guys actually don't care (if you think they do....you watch too many movies), in fact I'm sure we all prefer a woman who is more free with their sexuality. For guys it's ok to be sluts, I don't think any sane man would object to women being more open with their sexuality also. There should never be a fear of being "s1ut-shamed" or being bullied for being comfortable with sex. Of course there are extremes you shouldn't take it too, but that goes for both sexes obviously.

I wasn't exactly polite either, no biggie.

My complaints are more addressed towards the community, rather than the games themselves. While I still think that a cast of scantily clad women in video games is silly and rather unnecessary, I do agree that the amount of whining and heat that this particular issue catches (particularly from Tumblr brand SJW's) is entirely out of proportion. I agree that men and women are definitely different from one another on more that just a cosmetic level, but I still think it's foolish to assume that culture does not have a very real and powerful influence on us. I will concede that there probably is a genetic reason that men might prefer gaming more than women, but people are so diverse that I really have a hard time believing that the female population in the smash community is representative of the actual number of women who would be interested in,and succeed at smash. It will probably never be 50/50, but imagine if women were suddenly an actual chunk of our audience! Think about how much more the smash scene would flourish. I love the smash community man, I love almost everybody I meet through it, I love the passion it inspires, and I love the way this silly 15 year old video game (I'm talking about melee specifically here, I can't speak for smash 4 and others since I'm not really involved in all of that) has brought a surprisingly diverse group of people together purely for the love of the game. This probably sounds cheesy as ****, but I can't help but be passionate about this sort of thing because I just want what's best for smash.

 

[Zink Imp]

For some reason you quoted Matty under what I had said.

This is partially true but not to the degree it is anywhere else like the US or Europe. Not even close. A lot of the young to middle aged Japanese women still revel in old traditions and are proud of it. I lived in Japan recently with my Nana, and had been stationed there with my parents for a while when I was younger.

The birth and marriage crisis is a perfect example of how it's not improving or changing at all. The women may be changing, but the men certainly are not. In fact Japanese men are going in the complete opposite direction, and remember Men make up like 95% the critical creative and programming process of most video games. So they control the mindshare and the final output. The older men are carrying super old traditions and viewpoints and the younger men are getting warped ideas of females from fictional and virtual sources.

Of course. Men are the bigger audience just like in America. Sex appeal is almost a must to try to get someone's attention.
Hell, I like a woman's body...

But there is a growing number of Japanese people (mostly women) that find the use of women in pop culture is degrading. And it's the Western influence why many women are more committed to careers than having a family. I've read that people in Japan take better measures of contraception.

Although working women and the appearance of women as objects could might not necessarily be related, there are a lot of women that find the depictions to be degrading.

It's something that's not going to go away, since there is still an audience (males).

Back to Smash Bros, I also wanted to mention that I didn't care for Samus' chest being bigger in Smash 4. People point to Other M for that, but ZSS in Sm4sh doesn't use the Other M design. Also, her chest size is smaller in Other M. I blame Namco, since they like their big busted women. Maybe Sakurai is also going through a phase.

 

[M15t3R E]

Other fighter games like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter have sexy female fighters who flaunt skin. Oh, and let's not even mention the Dead or Alive series. If they are allowed to do this, why can't smash bros have a sexy Samus? It's not a big deal. The male characters are often muscular in fighter games- possessing the kind of bodies women would ogle at.
I would also like to point out that after 7 years off and on in the tournament scene whenever I see a female attend she is never objectified, but is respected like one of the guys. The smash scene is a mature, friendly scene in my experience.

 

[MattyMutt]

Other fighter games like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter have sexy female fighters who flaunt skin. Oh, and let's not even mention the Dead or Alive series. If they are allowed to do this, why can't smash bros have a sexy Samus? It's not a big deal. The male characters are often muscular in fighter games- possessing the kind of bodies women would ogle at.
I would also like to point out that after 7 years off and on in the tournament scene whenever I see a female attend she is never objectified, but is respected like one of the guys. The smash scene is a mature, friendly scene in my experience.

I think it's equally silly no matter which game it is, but harping on scantily clad video game characters is kind of a moot point imo. I'm more concerned with some of the recurring stereotypes, tropes, and behaviors regarding female gamers and interactions with them in the smash community.

http://milktea-ssbm.tumblr.com/post/76970566292/why-awareness-in-the-super-smash-bros-melee

This blog post by milktea should give you some of an idea of what I'm talking about, and honestly, if you're really being honest with yourself, and you still say that none of that stuff in the article at least -kind of- rings a bell, then I guess your local scene is just god tier progressive. Good for you guys I guess, but honestly there wouldn't be people hollering about this if it wasn't at least somewhat of a pervasive problem. Why would people waste time complaining about it otherwise? Do people honestly think that anybody who is critical of gaming from a feminist perspective is just a hypersensitive tumblr brand SJW who's out to demonize male gamers and ruin the fun for everybody?

 

[Plunder]

Well as with almost every SJW type topic....it's blown out of proportion and most of the time the most adamant SJWs have literally no experience with either side in REAL LIFE.

Only at really large tournaments is it a problem. And at any large event you have these problems, not just with gaming events (more people always means more anonymity so people act differently and there is more chance for there to be dumb ignorant people).

IMO it's pretty much futile since you always have some nitwit that never gets the memo or some 13-16 yo kid that is just being a dumb teen going through puberty and doesn't know better. The people that are enlightened or that you think you are enlightening already treat women equally (like all here). So it's a massive case of preaching to the choir and never reaching the people that need to hear it the most. And even if it were to reach those people they'd LOL at you and continue said behavior.

That's not being fatalist, that's just being real. You can't make all the bullies in the world stop bullying, you can't stop all the crime in the world. So focusing on 1 incident where maybe one chick at a 5000+ event gets asked "Oh wow you actually play smash, do you do it for attention? Can i get your number?" then cries in here pillow and tweets about it isn't really worth wasting time on. You're not gonna fix THAT in the future ever.

The only real way to fix it? More women play Smash, the levels even out. They becomes less rare, less of a "novelty". Everyone gets used to them being around and being common. SO then they stop getting laser focused attention and mocking from the really desperate pathetic guys. Until they aren't such a severe minority nothing will change.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Only at really large tournaments is it a problem.

My girlfriend tried to get into the competitive scene and was repulsed by the sexism present at small weeklies. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this statement you're making is completely bull****.

 

[Plunder]

Give us the details and specifics, what was so insanely sexist and repulsive that it ruined smash for her for FORRRRREVVVERRRRR *feigns hand against forehead*

Best advice for either gender? Let your actions and skill speak in lieu of words. You can get butthurt about words and attitude and quit or you can take is as a challenge and get better than those that don't take you seriously. Quitting right out of the gate is a clear sign you aren't that passionate about it anyways and that you are easily affected by stranger's opinions. It basically just proves them right, even if they are wrong to assume.

 

[Jacques Núanáin]

Lol, some of you... males are nearly always the majority in the gaming world. This can be said about many other areas of interest that are differentiated between the genders... and whether this is due to factors of nature or nurture really doesn't change anything. Women are more restricted in this area, as men are restricted in areas of womens' interests (not saying this isn't a bad thing).

Don't think there's a problem with any of the character designs in Smash. Still very conservative. There are still, of course, many immature people within the community that exhibit sexist behaviours/other, which is unfortunate. Most are tards' or little children.

 

[gmBottles]

The fashion industry is almost entirely females, but you don't see anybody complaining about it in the same way that people complain that there are more males in gaming.

Just a thought.

 

[Empoleon_master]

The fashion industry is almost entirely females, but you don't see anybody complaining about it in the same way that people complain that there are more males in gaming.

Just a thought.

Yes you do. First of all most glothing designers are MEN who target their adds at WOMEN, women who are lead to believe that they only look good if they're a size 7 and are shamed constantly if they are anything else. Over half of clothing stores don't even make clothing for women beyond a size 13, you didn't just drink deit sexism you drank cold hard women are treated better/as bad as meninade.

 

[Plunder]

Yes you do. First of all most glothing designers are MEN who target their adds at WOMEN, women who are lead to believe that they only look good if they're a size 7 and are shamed constantly if they are anything else. Over half of clothing stores don't even make clothing for women beyond a size 13, you didn't just drink deit sexism you drank cold hard women are treated better/as bad as meninade.

....this is such an ignorant post....

Gay men, basically women. Gay men are scientifically exempt from any kind of result for social studies and psychology data for the category of "Men". Because they psychologically and culturally more similar to women than they are the traditional straight male. When you talk about "Men"in the context of a sexist dicussion, including Gay men in your argument pretty much invalidates you're point and brings your ability to debate into question.

That's like saying that some butch lesbians don't like soap operas therefore women don't like soap operas.

Women basically are their own worst enemy (and Gay men), read up on it. I'm not going to waste time reciting what is already out there, they are the ones that drive the impossible image and put so much emphasis on looking a certain way. Most straight guys don't care and definitely don't think that the stick figure model is ideal at all. That's what Gay Men and other Women push on the female gender.

 

[gmBottles]

Yes you do. First of all most glothing designers are MEN who target their adds at WOMEN, women who are lead to believe that they only look good if they're a size 7 and are shamed constantly if they are anything else. Over half of clothing stores don't even make clothing for women beyond a size 13, you didn't just drink deit sexism you drank cold hard women are treated better/as bad as meninade.

Did you get your information from tumblr? Because to me, it sounds like you think you know what you're talking about.

But you don't.

Women lead the fashion industry, not men. Women choose to make their advertisements the way they do, because they know it will sell better. Not men. Sorry bud, this is the business world. Money comes first, and that isn't going to change in this culture any time soon.
And yes, clothing stores do make sizes above 13. It was be nonsensical for them to cut off at a certain size just because "they are discriminating against fat people" or something else ridiculous and absurd like that. That isn't how business works. They don't choose to not make things for fat people, because they wouldn't be making as much money that way. They do, however, make less of those sizes because there isn't as high of a demand and they cost more to make because they use more materials.

 

[gmBottles]

And Plunder brings up another point, gay men.

Men in the fashion industry are often assumed to be gay, when that isn't true. Is this not sexist towards men?
Just a reminder that sexism isn't strictly towards women.

But this thread isn't about fashion, so I'll cut that off here.

 

[Plunder]

And Plunder brings up another point, gay men.

Men in the fashion industry are often assumed to be gay, when that isn't true. Is this not sexist towards men?
Just a reminder that sexism isn't strictly towards women.

But this thread isn't about fashion, so I'll cut that off here.

I see where you are coming from....

I definitely don't assume they are gay, but the amount of gay men in that industry outnumber the straight by quite a large factor. Sure there are big names like Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger that are straight, but there there are like 1000s of other gay men who populate the higher levels of the fashion industry.

And if someone were to say something like "Fashion designing, hairdressing, and make up artistry are not traditional straight male hobbies/careers" that would not be sexist it would be factual based on how the overwhelming majority of men and women's opinions in our society. So it's reasonable for most mainstream people to assume a man that is in fashion designing is gay or bi, just like most assume women aren't into videogames as much as guys are. All of this can change, but we are in the here and now. Our society and majority opinion dictate everything.

 

[MattyMutt]

Who knows, maybe the fashion industry is hostile to men. Maybe society frowns upon men who wish to join the fashion industry and it discourages men who are maybe considering it. I've never heard of such things, but it's certainly possible. Men don't complain or vocalize their feelings as much, but that is because society teaches us to internalize our emotions or else we're sensitive or weak, or even worse: *gasp* feminine! Of course sexism works both ways, just the same with any other discrimination. For instance, men who are victims of **** and domestic violence are far less likely to report it because of the shame associated with being dominated in such a fashion, particularly when the perpetrator is a woman. Contrary to the tumblrina viewpoint you can be racist towards whites and sexist towards men, and there are indeed many double standards in society that are cruel to men. Just because one happens though, doesn't mean that it makes the other okay.

Why is it that whenever this sort of conversation arises, those who argue against the feminist viewpoint seem to be so damn defensive? I particularly notice this from you, gmBottles . Nobody is accusing you or anybody else in this thread of being overtly sexist (granted, some of your comments have been questionable at best, but I'll overlook that for now), but only pointing out that the system is flawed and that there is systematically unfair treatment of women in gaming that results from stereotypes, generalizations, and presuppositions about people based entirely on their physical attributes. This is not a personal attack towards you, and acknowledging it doesn't mean that you're admitting to be a bad person. I even explicitly mentioned this earlier in the thread.

It wouldn't hurt to be a little bit more empathetic too. It's easy for y'all to dismiss the complaints of women in gaming because you don't ever even have to deal with these problems. It's easy to see that women, at the very least are not respected in smash. They're accused of attention whoring, questioned about being a "real" gamer, condescended to, made a spectacle of, I'm sure it gets old real fast.It doesn't matter if only a small minority does it, it's pervasive enough to draw persistent criticism, and it is largely ignored or condoned by the rest of the smash community. Is it so much to ask that everybody be respected equally in this community? Does that make me whiny and hypersensitive? If so, then so be it I guess.

 

[gmBottles]

But the thing is, we're saying that sexism only exists in gaming because of a few assholes who ruin it for everyone. And those assholes are going to be in every group or medium of entertainment, regardless of what it is. There isn't really much to be done about it.
Basically, the issue isn't that gaming is sexist, it's that sexists exist. And you can't stop that.

And while I wasn't intentionally being defensive, I can see what you mean. But what are these "questionable" comments I've made?

 

[MattyMutt]

But the thing is, we're saying that sexism only exists in gaming because of a few ******** who ruin it for everyone. And those ******** are going to be in every group or medium of entertainment, regardless of what it is. There isn't really much to be done about it.
Basically, the issue isn't that gaming is sexist, it's that sexists exist. And you can't stop that.

And while I wasn't intentionally being defensive, I can see what you mean. But what are these "questionable" comments I've made?

You said earlier that there's room for improvement, but now you're saying that there's nothing to be done. So which is it? At the very least, we ought not to be tolerant of ****ty behavior when we see it, and certainly not so complacent as to claim that there's nothing we can do about it.

You've been fine for the most part, when I said "you", it was more in the "y'all" sense. The only remark from you that rubbed me the wrong way in particular was when you insinuated that women were weak minded for not sticking around in the community when they are treated poorly, which is easy for you to say since I'm pretty sure you're not a woman. You most likely don't even have to think about being accused of being an attention *****, questioned about whether or not you're a "real gamer", or being condescended to as though you were a child.

Oh yeah, and for those of you who continue to claim that women just naturally don't like smash, let me remind you guys that they said the same thing about women and sports no less than a generation ago.

 

[gmBottles]

You said earlier that there's room for improvement, but now you're saying that there's nothing to be done. So which is it? At the very least, we ought not to be tolerant of ****ty behavior when we see it, and certainly not so complacent as to claim that there's nothing we can do about it.

You've been fine for the most part, when I said "you", it was more in the "y'all" sense. The only remark from you that rubbed me the wrong way in particular was when you insinuated that women were weak minded for not sticking around in the community when they are treated poorly, which is easy for you to say since I'm pretty sure you're not a woman. You most likely don't even have to think about being accused of being an attention *****, questioned about whether or not you're a "real gamer", or being condescended to as though you were a child.

Oh yeah, and for those of you who continue to claim that women just naturally don't like smash, let me remind you guys that they said the same thing about women and sports no less than a generation ago.

Sorry for changing my opinion on the subject lol, I stand with what I have said most recently.

I wasn't necessarily insinuating that only women would be weak minded for leaving, but all people that drop a hobby they claim to love when they face opposition.

Women do like sports, but not to the same degree as men. It's really not a bad thing for genders to have different interests, it's just natural. People like what they like.

 

[Elin]

I'm female and never once has the Smash community acted sexist towards me or degraded me in any way.

It's not like Gamergate where everything is misandrists versus misogynists, or stupid YouTube/Twitch comments. The Smash community welcomed me with open arms, and, personally, this made me feel wanted for once.

(also I don't really care about the sexual implications as long as it's not overshadowing the gameplay/story/whatever. Then we have a problem)

 

[Plunder]

I'm female and never once has the Smash community acted sexist towards me or degraded me in any way.

It's not like Gamergate where everything is misandrists versus misogynists, or stupid YouTube/Twitch comments. The Smash community welcomed me with open arms, and, personally, this made me feel wanted for once.

(also I don't really care about the sexual implications as long as it's not overshadowing the gameplay/story/whatever. Then we have a problem)

Well hey that is nice to hear! Glad your local area doesn't have any man-children.




Okay everyone so before reading forward the best advice for any sex is to just ignore anything negative. Eventually they will stop trying and realize how dumb they look, seriously just pretend they don't exist. Or you can turn it around on them....Let's say you're a girl and a guy comes up to you and says something trite and ignorant like "Are you just doing this for attention?" etc, etc, etc.....just look at them dead in the eyes and say "Are you done, cause your making an a** out of yourself" or just troll them and say "Yes totally doing it for the attention, you got me" or take a dig and ask "Are you that desperate for female attention?"

The worst thing you can do is give them a reaction they are looking for or to get upset over WORDS. At that point you've given them all the power and attention they were seeking. Like the word "GRILLS"......seriously you'd have to be a 10 yo to get offended by such easy trolling/mocking....just flippin' ignore the morons if you can't handle a simple word.

Sooooo having said that let's make this a more interesting and a perhaps I'll try and be productive here with some hypotheticals -

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenario #1

Girl comes to local
Some of the guys there are asking her how seriously she takes Smash and are curious if she is ACTUALLY any good.

Choice #1

Girl can get super sexist butthurt over simple question that even a new male smasher would be asked (question I definitely got asked when I first went to smash-fests and locals). She then storms out shouting that she vows never to come to another smash event again and makes a tumblr post about it.

Choice #2

She says "Yes"
And then she proceeds to let her playing speak for itself
Girl builds reputation just like the rest of us and becomes respected and feared

Scenario #1-a

Girl gets whooped over and over
Some of the higher level players start talking smack
*** Shall I remind the SJWs that this is normal, it's how smashers (regardless of sex) talk to each other you don't take it personally. You either talk smack back, get better, or you cry and take it personally. It would seem that normal interactions b/n male smashers, female smashers take offense even though "they want to be treated the same" **

Choice #1-a

Girl quits Smash after one brief experience where she took normal competitive behavior personally and pretty much reveals that she really doesn't want be part of the community after all (she'd rather complain about it instead)

Choice #2-a

You practice
Ask higher level players to help you "get good"
- No one is going to turn down anyone who shows promise. Most local area's TOs and top players are all about nurturing local talent to represent. And for it to be a female is even more incentive, to show that women can compete at the same level and rep the area.

 

[Bluekirby2]

I don't see how ZSS's design is sexist.

She wears heels. How many non-bad asses fight in heels, let alone use them as a flipping weapon.

 

[Duplighost]

I am not going to make this elaborate because I really do not want to get involved with such an unnecessary topic, but I do not believe there were any intended sexual implications concerning Zero Suit Samus's and Shulk's "revealing" designs. It seems that people have to find something nearly irrelevant like this to create a debatable topic about, when there is really nothing important to argue at all. It's a body. All humans have one. If you are in any way offended by the fact that too much skin is being shown in a fighting game, when it is not being portrayed in any sexual connotation, then simply do not choose this character. They are not sexual unless you make it sexual for whatever reason.

As for players being sexist at tournaments, I cannot really comment on this as I have never been to one. I would imagine many people would think less of a woman there due to the fact that typically men favor video games over women. It is stereotypical, yes, but people are people and they will judge out loud. This does not imply that a woman will like video games any less than a man, or not be as good at a video game than a man (and this applies to any activity or idea).

Women and men do not necessarily like one thing more than another based solely on gender. A woman can like video games and sports more than a male who prefers shopping. Sure, the fashion industry can be headed by women primarily, but men can very well be associated with that industry if they please. I may be stating the obvious here, but really, this thread is not going to go anywhere.

 

[Murlough]

Yeah, I'm sure hot, all attractive women love being ogled, treated like a piece of meat, catcalled, harassed.

I know quite a few actually. I'm not for sexism, obviously, and I agree it can be ridiculous but if you don't think there are some women who like that you are crazy.

I just wish some people didn't cry out "sexism!" over random stuff. Hypothetically, I lose to a woman in a match and get frustrated. The woman may call me "sexist" just because I lost to a woman, which would be completely ridiculous. I'd get mad, guy or girl, because I like to win.

Basically, don't go LOOKING for sexism. Just like racism: a lot can be taken sexist when it really isn't.

 

[MattyMutt]

I know quite a few actually. I'm not for sexism obviously and I agree it can be ridiculous but if you don't think there are women who like this you are crazy.

What point are you even trying to make? Some women like being treated like ****, so it's not a big deal to treat all women like ****?

I just wish some people didn't through sexism for random stuff. Hypothetically I lose to a woman in a match and get frustrated. The woman may call me sexist because I lost to a woman which is completely ridiculous. I'd get mad guy or girl because I like to win.

Basically, don't go LOOKING for sexism. Just like racism a lot can be taken sexist when it really isn't.

I don't recall ever "through sexism for random stuff", which I'm assuming means something like "Looking for sexism where none exists". I've brought up plenty of examples of women being treated poorly in smash, but those were either ignored or dismissed with something to the effect of "lol women are just hypersensitive, if they were really passionate about the game they'd just ignore it."

 

[Murlough]

What point are you even trying to make? Some women like being treated like ****, so it's not a big deal to treat all women like ****?



I don't recall ever "through sexism for random stuff", which I'm assuming means something like "Looking for sexism where none exists". I've brought up plenty of examples of women being treated poorly in smash, but those were either ignored or dismissed with something to the effect of "lol women are just hypersensitive, if they were really passionate about the game they'd just ignore it."

The first part was the only one I used towards you. Calm down. I'm just saying there ARE chicks like that. Not making any point and NO I don't think you should treat chicks like ****. You ARE being a good example of people over reacting to nothing though. Relax. I didn't kick a puppy.

 

[MattyMutt]

The first part was the only one I used towards you. Come down. I'm just saying there ARE chicks like that. Not making any point and NO I don't think you should treat chicks like ****. You ARE being a good example of people over reacting to nothing though. Relax. I didn't kick a puppy.

You've mistaken my exasperation for anger. I'm plenty relaxed, I just thought that your post was dumb and barely legible, so I called you out on it.

 

[Murlough]

You've mistaken my exasperation for anger. I'm plenty relaxed, I just thought that your post was dumb and barely legible, so I called you out on it.

I was in a hurry so I made some typos.

EDIT: You also clearly didn't understand what I was saying.