Sexism in smash bros in general and character design:

[Captain Shades]

I'm fine with the Zero Suit as a concept.

But explicitly adding the half-nude costume when it didn't exist previously? The "gym" reasoning feels a little weak.

Edit: Also inb4 it was in the original metroid with Justin Bailey, etc. That's reaching. They knew what they were doing.

Do you mean Smash or the Metroid titles? The costumes were references to the endings of the GBA games, Metroid Fusion and Zero Mission respectively.

Smash did not create either of the two outfits, they were pre-established like a decade before as much more tame replacements to the old ending screens from Metroid.

Also, the only reason they were included in Smash was because a female developer wanted to reference the old titles

 

[Lore]

Does that change the fact that they weren't in Brawl but were explicitly added to 4 and onwards?

Like even if a female designer did it, who cares? There's nothing saying in that tweet that the female designer brought up the idea; just that she finished the implementation.

 

[Captain Shades]

Does that change the fact that they weren't in Brawl but were explicitly added to 4 and onwards?

That is because Samus needed matching colors to fit, since the two characters were connected. You also disregard the fact that Brawl only had 5 colors per character, whereas everyone, besides Wario, in Smash 4 got more so they’d have 8 for 8 player Smash. They added it in as an extra as characters got more skins in Smash 4, like Mario’s America colors.

 

[Erimir]

It's a very flawed argument to call things "trivial" when it bothers someone. It looks down upon those who are bothered by it.

The other thing is that if you truly think it's trivial... perhaps your reaction should be "Ok, who cares? We don't need Samus in a bikini or [whatever thing is being called sexist that you think is trivial]". If it doesn't really matter, then you're not really losing something, are you, by catering to some group that does care?

If you're adamantly opposed to changes to designs to make them less sexualized... doesn't it suggest that you don't actually think it's trivial? Isn't someone else being bothered by a thing you aren't bothered by also a trivial thing to get upset about?

There is no shortage of people getting very angry over things they simultaneously claim are trivial and don't matter. The impression I often get from such situations is that it's not the issue that is trivial to that person, but that they think those other people are.

Sometimes that point is made more explicitly regarding video games and sexism/sexualized designs, by arguing that the market for video games is male-dominated therefore they should cater to males, the flipside of which is that female gamers' views should carry less weight. That's not an argument that everyone makes, mind you! But I have definitely seen it, and that is basically the implication.

 

[mario123007]

Sometimes that point is made more explicitly regarding video games and sexism/sexualized designs, by arguing that the market for video games is male-dominated therefore they should cater to males, the flipside of which is that female gamers' views should carry less weight. That's not an argument that everyone makes, mind you! But I have definitely seen it, and that is basically the implication.

Sorry for just jumping into this thread but here are just my takes on that matter...
I think it is okay for Nintendo to regulate sexual designs, but on the other hand I think is okay if there are, look at Xenoblade Chronicles 2 for example.
That being said, with some spirits being censored like Mythra and Camilla, I will always stand by on this claim that Smash Ultimate should have been a T rated game, or I personally think Smash Ultimate is okay to get a higher rating as it is now.

Now regarding this part which sorry if I taken out of context,I might interpret your stance wrong but yeah that's a false dictonomy to me when those say "If they cater to males, that means they are neglecting female gamers' view", because as you've mentioned video games (PC and consoles in general) audiences are most men, so as a business it is logical for video games to be cater to males. Yet that is far from saying we should neglect female gamer's opinions, and what's interesting is that you have female gamers having to defend sexualized design and content whereas you also have males defending censorship. Look at MK11 as an example. I will show you source of this later.

 

[NintenRob]

I can't be the only one who thinks the sports outfits look more natural than the Zero Suit can I? When I play Zero Suit, I almost exclusively use those outfits. Plus I think orange just really suits Samus. Yeah it shows a lot of Skin, but a lot of clothing today shows a lot of skin, some more ridiculous than this.

 

[mario123007]

I can't be the only one who thinks the sports outfits look more natural than the Zero Suit can I? When I play Zero Suit, I almost exclusively use those outfits. Plus I think orange just really suits Samus. Yeah it shows a lot of Skin, but a lot of clothing today shows a lot of skin, some more ridiculous than this.

And okay, I know ZZS outfit had been discussed the most here, and while I dislike how many female characters outfit still get censored, the reason why there wasn't that much ruckus is because Smash Bros was never cater to those sexual outfits, that being said as I mention before, my wishful thinking is that Ultimate could have been a T rating or just more mature rating.

 

[Erimir]

Now regarding this part which sorry if I taken out of context,I might interpret your stance wrong but yeah that's a false dictonomy to me when those say "If they cater to males, that means they are neglecting female gamers' view", because as you've mentioned video games (PC and consoles in general) audiences are most men, so as a business it is logical for video games to be cater to males.

The part after "because" doesn't contradict the thing you're calling a "false dichotomy".

Anyway, my point is that part of the reason why fewer women and girls play video games is because game developers cater to male gamers with "jiggle physics" and other such crap.

 

[Sucumbio]

My wife's first and only complaint about Bayonetta was her design she loved Lara Croft in the newer games however and she's still holding on to hope that the glory days of GCN will come back with prime 4.

 

[mario123007]

The part after "because" doesn't contradict the thing you're calling a "false dichotomy".

It wasn't lol, only the quote was false dichotomy, it was the mentality of "If cater mostly to men gamers means neglecting women gamers" that was. But hey, both sides makes false dichotomy I'll give you that.

The because was me explaining why, and again it is ok for gaming companies to cater for both genders, but at the end of the day we all know that cater to an audience that isn't the main audience isn't gonna work.

Anyway, my point is that part of the reason why fewer women and girls play video games is because game developers cater to male gamers with "jiggle physics" and other such crap.

That's not exactly the case, there are many games where they are primarily cater to female audiences but they never sell that well... anther reason is because female gamers enjoy simple mobile games more than the fps and multiplayer games. And games with jiggle physic and possibility fanservice you were referring to... those kind of games isn't that large compare to fps and single player games.

It will be awesome if we have more female gamers to enjoy the same games we like, but changing the games that were meant to cater to male is not the way of doing so in my opinion.

 

[Sucumbio]

Just about every game I liked my younger sister also liked. But then games started getting silly like Tomb Raider or Soul Calibur. Then I remembered back to cartoons and Tranzor Z and his sidekick with b00b missiles
m.m;

 

[Erimir]

another reason is because female gamers enjoy simple mobile games more than the fps and multiplayer games. And games with jiggle physic and possibility fanservice you were referring to... those kind of games isn't that large compare to fps and single player games.

And why is it that they prefer those types of games?

It doesn't really get to the reason for that, it's just a statement without explanation. Pandering to teenage males turning girls/women away from games at least provides some explanation, rather than just saying "they don't like those games because reasons".

 

[Captain Shades]

And why is it that they prefer those types of games?

It doesn't really get to the reason for that, it's just a statement without explanation. Pandering to teenage males turning girls/women away from games at least provides some explanation, rather than just saying "they don't like those games because reasons".

The game’s appeal to more girls due to simplicity. Honestly, this isn’t even an argument for female gamers, but rather the general population. Simple games have a wider target demographic that can enjoy them. The biggest example would be the Wii as Wii Sports was so easy to pick up and play that even the elderly could enjoy it without understanding a thing about technology.

I believe art style also comes into play as a simple and dare I say cute or cartoony art style is more likely to attract females than a game like Doom where a guy is ripping limbs off demons with splashes of blood.

Basically, simplicity is the key to a game’s success with outside audiences. Game’s like Fortnite and Minecraft have a much broader appeal due to the more simple art styles and gameplay. Same with classics like Mario, Kirby, and Sonic.

Anyway, my point is that part of the reason why fewer women and girls play video games is because game developers cater to male gamers with "jiggle physics" and other such crap.

This doesn’t necessarily prove anything and many examples could be used against this.

You may hate Bayonetta, but many females have taken to her and see her as a positive influence on their life, stating that she helped them build confidence about their looks.

As I said previously, Fortnite has taken off for all demographics, yet the girls in that game are pretty thicc, so to say. The gameplay just intrigues them more more so than a game like League of Legends or Mortal Kombat, or those weird anime games with the super busty girls.

I could even use Shantae as an example of a big female loved character on this site as she isn’t exactly well clothed by any means, but has found her way into many female gamers favorites.

Really, the issue is more with accessibility and character than the “jiggle physics”. Give females a fun game with a character that’s likeable and they’ll probably enjoy it.

That's not exactly the case, there are many games where they are primarily cater to female audiences but they never sell that well...

I mean, Style Savy seems to do well, same with Cooking Mama. The issue is more so the fact that most developers don’t invest in female games outside of smart phones nowadays as the Wii and DS died off. Honestly, Nintendo was the one who really catered to females and will probably continue to do so.

anther reason is because female gamers enjoy simple mobile games more than the fps and multiplayer games.

Fortnite kinda kills this argument

But then games started getting silly like Tomb Raider

To be fair, Tomb Raider did change the look on recent consoles. I feel Laura Croft’s original design was only like that to highlight the fact that she was female on a console that made everyone look like blocks. I believe limitations are sometimes the cause of these events.

 

[mario123007]

And why is it that they prefer those types of games?

My own theory is that those kind of games are well... simple and just to play for leisure.

It doesn't really get to the reason for that, it's just a statement without explanation. Pandering to teenage males turning girls/women away from games at least provides some explanation, rather than just saying "they don't like those games because reasons".

How is that without explanation? Like I said, it is a business andmore realistic decision to have games more cater to male, but don't get me wrong,

I think I should state this more clearer, of course I wish there will be more games to be fun for gamers of any kind of gender, with that being said if you think that female gamers will turn away video games just because of fanserivce, that isn't the case... any gender can be turn away from fanservice as long as they don't like it. And even if so, what's the issue? Heck not every genre is gonna appeal to every one or every gender. Like I don't like horror games and there's nothing you can to make me like them.

Further example, while not a solid proof, but my sis loves anime and she loves many female characters from Fates, which means she is okay with fanservice.

Pandering to teenage males turning girls/women away from games at least provides some explanation, rather than just saying "they don't like those games because reasons".

I think it would be better if you can give more further explanation why you think fanservice in games are turning girls/women away more and more...
Come to think of it, I think it

I mean, Style Savy seems to do well, same with Cooking Mama. The issue is more so the fact that most developers don’t invest in female games outside of smart phones nowadays as the Wii and DS died off. Honestly, Nintendo was the one who really catered to females and will probably continue to do so.

I already explain that, while smartphone is really an equally mixed market regarding both genders, PC and Consoles gamers on the other hand despite there are more female gamers than before, PC and consoles are mostly men. Esports, nuff said, most are men. Therefore it's normal to have more games that are cater to men, but... that doesn't mean it will always turn away female gamers. It's really different strokes for different folks, so I prefer to have more games to can be cater to everyone rather than games that only cater to certain group or gender. I have say this, fanservice do not always turn away female gamers as you might think. Fanservice can turn away male gamers too, like me I usually turn away games that fanserivce is its main thing, but I'm ok with JRPGs with some fanservices, and pretty sure most people do to those who likes that type of genre.

As I stated before, more like Nintendo never really specifically cater to females, they makes games that is fun for every gender.

Fortnite kinda kills this argument

???
Explain? Fornite I can't really say if there are many female gamers...

 

[Captain Shades]

Explain? Fornite I can't really say if there are many female gamers...

A lot of females played Fortnite. I remember many saying they would hop on in high school, most likely to play with their boyfriend, but still the game did peak the interest of females. Even my sister would grab a Switch to play Fortnite on the couch. The game was pretty much the next Minecraft in which it found its audience in everyone regardless of age or gender.

Fanservice can turn away male gamers too

Stop describing the Fire Emblem community

As I stated before, more like Nintendo never really specifically cater to females, they makes games that is fun for every gender.

Ehh... They did try to in the Wii and DS era, as well as parts of the Wii U and 3DS. I think employees even mentioned that they noticed a demographic shift with the Wii and DS and tried to please their larger player base. This was actually the reason we got Style Savy and probably the Nintendogs series. I do agree though, I think Nintendo does pretty much design their games for everyone 90% of the time which is why they have such a broader and mixed fandom than most others in the industry.

 

[mario123007]

A lot of females played Fortnite. I remember many saying they would hop on in high school, most likely to play with their boyfriend, but still the game did peak the interest of females. Even my sister would grab a Switch to play Fortnite on the couch. The game was pretty much the next Minecraft in which it found its audience in everyone regardless of age or gender.

That's very interesting, that being said it would be better if you give out some statistics, but still... that's only on your own experience, and I aware mobiles is the platform with most female gamers, and I do think there are more female players playing Fortnite and PUBG on phone than PC.

Stop describing the Fire Emblem community

Not sure which FE community you are referring to... but if you are talking about the ones on this website, yeah... they're weird.
But hey, it's more than just that lol. Otherwise why do you think there's many male gaming journalist like Jason Schreier complaining on fanservice?

Ehh... They did try to in the Wii and DS era, as well as parts of the Wii U and 3DS. I think employees even mentioned that they noticed a demographic shift with the Wii and DS and tried to please their larger player base. This was actually the reason we got Style Savy and probably the Nintendogs series. I do agree though, I think Nintendo does pretty much design their games for everyone 90% of the time which is why they have such a broader and mixed fandom than most others in the industry.

I was never denying that Nintendo never cater to females, it was never their main focus... but yeah I pretty much misinformed that one. My bad.
I also give out how they release pink 3DS, which does highlight the fact that females are more cater to mobile games than consoles that's for sure. That's why you have Style Savy and Cooking Mama on the 3DS and DS.

Wii on the other hand, it really uses the blue ocean strat which we all know it was only a fad-level of success, after a few years, many Wiis were just collecting dust.

Okay after all this discussion I still don't understand why some say fanservice will turn away females, which I only partially disagree, fanservice can turn over anyone who has different tastes... as with my own example, I don't like neither horror games nor movies, but I won't say horror games or movies are problematic, it's just not my cup of tea.

Now look at Nintendo Switch, as we all know, Nintendo Switch is probably the most peculiar console when it comes to its target audience, in general Nintendo Switch caters to young audience regardless of gender, but as statstics shown, the young males between the age of 20 -30 are the main Switch owners now. Therefore it isn't surprised when Nintendo Switch games are becoming in better quality and also many fanservice and anime games are coming to Nintendo Switch with no censorship being forced by Nintendo whatsoever.

I'm personally okay with this as long as I get games that I want, which are first party games and JRPGs, but I'm curious to know what others think on NS games and the direction Nintendo is going.

 

[Haden]

I'm not going to lie, I don't even see a purpose of having a thread like this.
my opinion is pretty general. 'sexism' in gaming is not a widespread issue and only exists on the fringes of outcasts who have nothing to offer anyway. anyone arguing game companies are sexist also don't understand marketing. if more women play games, more developers will dip into the market to cater to them. so long as 9/10 of the community is male, that cater will lead to male interests because men are 9 times more likely to buy the product. why pander to a demographic that isn't going to buy it?
female characters in games having an attractive appearance shouldn't flare up insecurities either. zero suit having a large bust is the designers choice, so what. don't like it, develop your own game with a lard character that's as much of a brick wall as lucina.
female character representation in gaming is extremely diverse also, so that's not an issue either. we have princesses like peach, space fighters like zero suit who are attractive, and soldiers like commander keys from the halo series who are butch looking and in uniform not serving the trope of 'the female character'.

any non issue i've ever seen being called sexism in both the gaming community and smash bros community is generally exactly that. a non issue. the only instances i see of actual sexism are on the fringe and rare, and often driven by an individual who has no pull anyway.

the fact that this thread even exists just makes me smh.

 

[Sucumbio]

The question(s) is(are) valid, though poorly phrased.

What is sexisn? How does it relate to video games?

Or not just games but anything... Why do soap operas mesmerize audiences ages 5 to 95 every day?

IIf it's just cause of the money then well don't watch it or play it.. But if it's more insidious then the debate has merit. Obviously some people believe it's the latter.

 

[mario123007]

I'm not going to lie, I don't even see a purpose of having a thread like this.
my opinion is pretty general. 'sexism' in gaming is not a widespread issue and only exists on the fringes of outcasts who have nothing to offer anyway. anyone arguing game companies are sexist also don't understand marketing. if more women play games, more developers will dip into the market to cater to them. so long as 9/10 of the community is male, that cater will lead to male interests because men are 9 times more likely to buy the product. why pander to a demographic that isn't going to buy it?

Actually, there is... at least to me.
I have similar debates and discussion not just Sexism in Smash Bros, but also got into many unnecessary heat regarding to XC2 character designs, heck don't be surprised when you have some notable/ active users on Social thread having some far left mentality and think that many users who disagrees them are nothing but weebs...
Mod told me it is best to not having debate in Social thread, so I guess that's why we have debate hall.

But yeah I personally think this thread talking merely about Smash is what it is because... well, this is Smashboards. But we always need to look at a bigger scope when it comes to sexism in gaming.
And some people just can't drop their ego for once when talking about this... really.

any non issue i've ever seen being called sexism in both the gaming community and smash bros community is generally exactly that. a non issue. the only instances i see of actual sexism are on the fringe and rare, and often driven by an individual who has no pull anyway.

the fact that this thread even exists just makes me smh.

Yeah, ironically the only time when it is an issue when users here make those non issues, an issue lol.

But of course many journalist already do those same thing, so go figure.

 

[Alicorn]

Sexism is an issue in gaming, people are under this charming misguided belief that they can say or do whatever they like because its a video game environment. I remembered when one promiment smash player's career was damaged because he hugged his opponent after the match who was a girl. Sexist comments abound in Youtube comment sections of videos covering this. A majority saying that the girl was out to get the guy because he was famous. A woman has the right to defend herself, if she wanted a hug she would let the guy know its rude and creepy to be hugged by a stranger and how the community responded was less than admirable

 

[mario123007]

Sexism is an issue in gaming, people are under this charming misguided belief that they can say or do whatever they like because its a video game environment. I remembered when one promiment smash player's career was damaged because he hugged his opponent after the match who was a girl. Sexist comments abound in Youtube comment sections of videos covering this. A majority saying that the girl was out to get the guy because he was famous. A woman has the right to defend herself, if she wanted a hug she would let the guy know its rude and creepy to be hugged by a stranger and how the community responded was less than admirable

You have to clarify regarding sexism in gaming, I think you kind of misunderstood the problem because what you bring up is on the esports scene, which in reality there is a problem with that... but here we are talking about video games themselves.
But sexism in video games were never a problem... and have been debated for years now.

 

[Klimax]

That "diet racism" has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. This is because of things like this that Americans have such a bad reputation all around the world.

What is funny is that nowadays, everything is basically offensive, sexist or everything you want ending up in "ist" or "phobic". Don't forget something folks, when you're offended, you are because you decided to be. The problem is never the things themselves, that's the way people react to it.

You wanna talk about the Zero Suit ? Samus has to wear something very light since she then has to wear the power/varia/gravity suit. The zero suit is the way it is because it makes more sense. Why do we have alts where we see more of her skin ? Because of fan service, because people like to see a sexy chick in their game. If we had the alt has an actual thing in a Metroid game, that would be a shame. But Smash Bros is all about fan service.

Why do this alt exist ? Because Japanese people (and basically the rest of the world EXCEPT the west) love beauty and don't have any problem with it.

If you (you being impersonal here, not talking to the OP in particular), seems to me like you're intolerant to other people's culture.

 

[MintDice]

I think there is a big disconnect between market economics (what sells) and what is thought of as fair. That is the basis of the problem in logic on either side. Personally, I think market economics is a much better option.

 

[mario123007]

That "diet racism" has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. This is because of things like this that Americans have such a bad reputation all around the world.

Same with how many say Chinese (mainlands in particular) are bad, not all Americans are the same, but I see your point.

What is funny is that nowadays, everything is basically offensive, sexist or everything you want ending up in "ist" or "phobic". Don't forget something folks, when you're offended, you are because you decided to be. The problem is never the things themselves, that's the way people react to it.

You wanna talk about the Zero Suit ? Samus has to wear something very light since she then has to wear the power/varia/gravity suit. The zero suit is the way it is because it makes more sense. Why do we have alts where we see more of her skin ? Because of fan service, because people like to see a sexy chick in their game. If we had the alt has an actual thing in a Metroid game, that would be a shame. But Smash Bros is all about fan service.

What's still bother me tho was how Resetera was glad on how Ultimate nerfed her bust and censored Mythra and Camilla.
Heck even Smash Ultimate Social thread is filled with active users with minds like Resetera, which I recommend them to move to there if I were a mod.

These days, yeah... not just that I dislike the whole "cancel" culture... not mention how it shows DD standards and you also have some people blanatnly supports censorship.

 

[Klimax]

Same with how many say Chinese (mainlands in particular) are bad, not all Americans are the same, but I see your point.

Of course everyone is not like this. But I mean, many Americans talk and act like they have the moral high ground. The way they put their morality in their culture and medias is very annoying. Many European countries tend to do the same but it's not as bad.

What's still bother me tho was how Resetera was glad on how Ultimate nerfed her bust and censored Mythra and Camilla.
Heck even Smash Ultimate Social thread is filled with active users with minds like Resetera, which I recommend them to move to there if I were a mod.

These days, yeah... not just that I dislike the whole "cancel" culture... not mention how it shows DD standards and you also have some people blanatnly supports censorship.

These people are either soy boys or ugly girls. Soy boys because when they see a hot girl, it reminds them of their inability to get hot girls. Ugly girls because they're just jealous. And i'm not even kidding, when you're bothered by something so meaningless, chances are that it says something about you. People who hate what is beautiful are ugly most of the time (and I'm not only talking about the physical aspect).

These pawns who support censorship for the sake of the stupid **** they believe in are basically useful idiots.

 

[mario123007]

Of course everyone is not like this. But I mean, many Americans talk and act like they have the moral high ground. The way they put their morality in their culture and medias is very annoying. Many European countries tend to do the same but it's not as bad.

Well, obviously, when it comes to Asia, especially here in Taiwan... we are more willing to listen to the left side of USA... like CNN.
Heck, my teacher during my last semester in university was an American, he dislike Trump etc..., I respect him but man he sure has some of a moral high ground, then again he's a teacher so it's understandable. And he speaks reason, unlike many leftist people...

One of his quote that I will remember for good is "Opinions are not equally informed". Opinions should never be a pass to say bogus stuff. you always need a back up to make your opinion stand. I was guilty of not speaking reasons with my opinion but now I'm good lol.

These people are either soy boys or ugly girls. Soy boys because when they see a hot girl, it reminds them of their inability to get hot girls. Ugly girls because they're just jealous. And i'm not even kidding, when you're bothered by something so meaningless, chances are that it says something about you. People who hate what is beautiful are ugly most of the time (and I'm not only talking about the physical aspect).

These pawns who support censorship for the sake of the stupid **** they believe in are basically useful idiots.

Unfortunately, those users are the ones that's the most active on the thread... again no huge beef with their opinions but some of their problem is that, if you have against their opinion or even criticize them, it's gonna be a deep rabbit hole. I've learned that with how I saw their reaction on Xenoblade Chronicles 2, and as a Xenoblade fan most of their reasons were just utter crap.

 

[Dannish]

It irritates me when people conflate sexy and sexist.

 

[Klimax]

It irritates me when people conflate sexy and sexist.

You should excuse them, they're most of the time disconnected from the real world, they only live in front of their computer so they don't know what a sexy person is.

 

[Ben Holt]

It irritates me when people conflate sexy and sexist.

Agreed 149%.
I see this a lot with comic books too. Yea, they make the women have tittylicious bodies, but name one male superhero that isn't roided up and chisel chinned.
In Smash Bros., beyond the Mario characters who are far more cartoony, what human male character isn't stereotypically handsome?

 

[Professor Grunty]

It's pretty ridiculous that Chun-Li remains absent from the roster. Probably because most of the development team is male, as it is in the industry. And so if Chun-Li is thought of at all, it's only as a representative of Street Fighter, in which case there's already Ryu & Ken, so moving on... and then that's the end of the consideration.

Chun-Li deserves more recognition and appreciation, and is a glaring example of sexism, not as a result of malicious intent but rather from lack of consideration.

Chun-Li - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1st playable female fighter character in any fighting game. Idk seems like something worth honoring in a game dedicated to honoring the history of Nintendo and fighting games.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

It's pretty ridiculous that Chun-Li remains absent from the roster. Probably because most of the development team is male, as it is in the industry. And so if Chun-Li is thought of at all, it's only as a representative of Street Fighter, in which case there's already Ryu & Ken, so moving on... and then that's the end of the consideration.

Chun-Li deserves more recognition and appreciation, and is a glaring example of sexism, not as a result of malicious intent but rather from lack of consideration.

Chun-Li - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1st playable female fighter character in any fighting game. Idk seems like something worth honoring in a game dedicated to honoring the history of Nintendo and fighting games.

Ryu and Ken are the faces of the franchise, with Chun Li coming close. The devs aren't necessarily going to stuff a lot of characters from one of the third party series in Smash. It's one thing to have two non-Nintendo fighters from the same game, but three or more would be pushing it a little (and that's without adding the fact that Richter and Ken were probably implemented out of convenience).

Chun Li already gets plenty of representation in Capcom crossovers. Does that mean I wouldn't want her in Smash? No, I would like to have her, but I understand if they don't want to draw more from Street Fighter.

And saying that the sole reason for her exclusion in Smash is because of sexism and the devs being male is incredibly stupid. I doubt that Sakurai and his team harbor a secret hatred or resentment towards women for not having Chun Li. You had to come and play the gender card, didn't you buddy?

 

[UltimateShulk]

If anything the only thing I fear is me being told I can't play a male character. I am female, by the by, and I main Shulk.

It's not that I don't like female characters, it's just that I like a character's playstyle over others and being willing to take a challenge if said character is hard to master, but easy to pick up.

 

[yknowlikenia]

It looks like this thread is being lightly necro'd, so I thought I'd give my 2 cents as a female player.

I don't think it's the fault of Smash Bros. at all for "sexy" designs like the Zero Suit. I think it's natural to want to pay homage to Samus' design, just as they did with Bayonetta. In fact, I would say making ZSS less curvy and more muscular in Ultimate is the total opposite of sexism.

Is her original design sexist? To an extent, maybe. Samus losing clothes depending on how well you did in Metroid for the NES could definitely be construed as sexist, but she's been such an empowering character in her series that I wouldn't say that sentiment holds true in recent years. If Ultimate added jiggle physics and skimpy swimsuits to her costume list, then of course that'd be objectifying her way past the source material. As I see it, Samus is very respectfully designed.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Zero Suit Samus’s design is NOT sexist in Smash Bros. If you actually consider a design like hers to be innapropriate and sexist, that’s ridiculous

Like, seeing someone wearing about the same amount as ZSS’s more revealing alts is super common. It’s a normal thing for people to wear that much in most hot places.

And if you think you’re being progressive by saying her alts are sexist, you’re wrong. Saying women can’t wear something because it shows stomach is the exact opposite of progressive

Also, I do think the Smash community, and gaming community as a whole has a huge problem with sexism and people really need to get over it.

 

[Professor Grunty]

Ryu and Ken are the faces of the franchise, with Chun Li coming close. The devs aren't necessarily going to stuff a lot of characters from one of the third party series in Smash. It's one thing to have two non-Nintendo fighters from the same game, but three or more would be pushing it a little (and that's without adding the fact that Richter and Ken were probably implemented out of convenience).

Chun Li already gets plenty of representation in Capcom crossovers. Does that mean I wouldn't want her in Smash? No, I would like to have her, but I understand if they don't want to draw more from Street Fighter.

And saying that the sole reason for her exclusion in Smash is because of sexism and the devs being male is incredibly stupid. I doubt that Sakurai and his team harbor a secret hatred or resentment towards women for not having Chun Li. You had to come and play the gender card, didn't you buddy?

YA HAD TA CAME AND PLAY DA GENDAR CARD EH BADDY

The most predictable response.... and even answered in the post you quoted. Sometimes sexism is subtle, through lack of consideration (in the case of Chun-Li in Smash). Sometimes sexism is loud and stupid (in the case of your post, congrats to you).

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits

Stuff like this is why I can't take these kinds of discussions seriously.

Why or how on earth is it sexist for a woman to wear something that fits its purpose? Hard to call a strong willed female that wears what's optimal considering her athletic skills and being a space bounty hunter sexist. A woman athlete wearing a leotard isn't sexist. It's a matter of functionality because leotards and skin tight clothing help with movement. You'll notice strong women in athletic fields don't wear baggy clothes that hide their curves because it's suboptimal for what they're doing.

You also say it as if having those other male characters in a speedo would be a bad thing, which comes off as sexist towards men on its own. I personally don't see an issue with it at all and would welcome it. Having Wario in a speedo to show off those manly muscles and BBM body would be something I would find very enjoyable and funny. However, people would probably whine about all these men showing off their attractive male bodies and muscles and such as "toxic masculinity" or a "male power fantasy" or some nonsense like that and label it sexist anyway.

If you wanted to accuse Samus of being an example of sexism, you would only be correct if she was a whining, fickle, shallow, narcissistic, vain, envious woman as those are all very stereotypical sexist traits for women to have but she isn't. She's the opposite, if anything.

 

[StrangeKitten]

If anything the only thing I fear is me being told I can't play a male character. I am female, by the by, and I main Shulk.

It's not that I don't like female characters, it's just that I like a character's playstyle over others and being willing to take a challenge if said character is hard to master, but easy to pick up.

I'm a female player and the majority of characters I play are male. I just ended up liking their playstyles more, and that wins out over gender for me. I'm sure it doesn't help that there are a lot more male characters than female, but that is simply reflective of how gaming is. Characters like 2B and Tracer show that game devs are starting to make more main characters female, which is good. But it'll be a while yet until we see a lot of female characters getting added. A lot of the remaining video game icons are still male, such as Sora, Crash, Spyro, and Ryu Hayabusa. They certainly shouldn't be left out simply for being male.

I'd say the only sexism in Smash is how female players have been treated. The allegations from a few months back prove that most were harassed out of the community. Such an eye-opening event gives me hope that things will be better going forward.

 

[Noler_Mass]

It's impossible to mention sexism in smash without just mentioning sexism in video games in general (which is a MUCH more relevant topic, imo). Because smash is a celebration of gaming, and I really don't think they've been cherry-picking male and white characters. That's just what 95% of video game protagonists look like, which again is where the real issue lies.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

I really don't think they've been cherry-picking male and white characters. That's just what 95% of video game protagonists look like, which again is where the real issue lies.

You can't even reliably call a good number of them even THAT since so many of these franchises and games are Japanese, so it's safer to assume these characters are also Japanese or at least of Asian descent.


Some of these characters (even though they look it) aren't even technically human in the first place.



These are probably the only characters you can reasonably get away with calling a "white male" and almost of these are European.



Smash's roster is so diverse that trying to make a race issue, sex issue or any kind of diversity issue out of it is just so stupid at the end of the day.

 

[Oracle Link]

As I recently slightly derailed a thread about Kells/super awesome, female, competitive Sonic main I can't remember the name of for the life of me, to rant about sexism in general and character design I decided to create this thread to stop said derailing at the suggestion of someone with a Ganondorf avatar. (I am sorry, I can't remember your name, I am HORRIBLE with names, I remember avatars better though.)

Some ground rules for this thread:

1: No joking sexism PERIOD! This will not be tolerated/you will be ripped a new one by one of the many awesome people that will not take sexism here.
2: If you have to say something sexist like I KNOW will be posted here. Limit it to Diet Sexism, which is like this video for Diet Racism but with sexism. Warning language/mentions of what letter certain offensive words begin with and you know racism. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdyin6uipy4

3: This topic is for discussing BOTH sexism in the smash community/gaming community as a whole ie female/non male players getting crap for not being a guy (which you know CLEARLY limits how much ******** they can kick in tournaments) AND sexism in Smash character design such as half of ZSS's costumes showing too much skin and unless her chest has its own hit box it should NOT be that big.



Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits have to show so much skin that she could easily be a stand in for a waitress at the more famously sexist "resuaunt" that I will not name as I think it's name is too sexist/sexually charged to be posted here. This is basically like having Captain Falcon, little mac, and Link wearing a speedo, it's not comfortable for them, but it's still what they would have to deal with being thought of every time mentioned their name.

You Know That Sexy Designed Characters exist for both Sexes Right?

And ZSS Costume Shows not more Skin than Shulks it has Short of a Simalar Lenght and the Bra is far less Sexualixed as Bikini Tops That Woman Want to Wear when they Swim