Sexism in smash bros in general and character design:

[EineLupe]

#1
As I recently slightly derailed a thread about Kells/super awesome, female, competitive Sonic main I can't remember the name of for the life of me, to rant about sexism in general and character design I decided to create this thread to stop said derailing at the suggestion of someone with a Ganondorf avatar. (I am sorry, I can't remember your name, I am HORRIBLE with names, I remember avatars better though.)

Some ground rules for this thread:

1: No joking sexism PERIOD! This will not be tolerated/you will be ripped a new one by one of the many awesome people that will not take sexism here.
2: If you have to say something sexist like I KNOW will be posted here. Limit it to Diet Sexism, which is like this video for Diet Racism but with sexism. Warning language/mentions of what letter certain offensive words begin with and you know racism. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdyin6uipy4

3: This topic is for discussing BOTH sexism in the smash community/gaming community as a whole ie female/non male players getting crap for not being a guy (which you know CLEARLY limits how much ******** they can kick in tournaments) AND sexism in Smash character design such as half of ZSS's costumes showing too much skin and unless her chest has its own hit box it should NOT be that big.



Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits have to show so much skin that she could easily be a stand in for a waitress at the more famously sexist "resuaunt" that I will not name as I think it's name is too sexist/sexually charged to be posted here. This is basically like having Captain Falcon, little mac, and Link wearing a speedo, it's not comfortable for them, but it's still what they would have to deal with being thought of every time mentioned their name.

Lmao what

 

[Ahooda]

Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits have to show so much skin that she could easily be a stand in for a waitress at the more famously sexist "resuaunt" that I will not name as I think it's name is too sexist/sexually charged to be posted here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of ZSS's alts are just color swaps?

The only skins ZSS has that aren't color swaps are the last two, which I believe are references to the ability to give her leotard
(I don't know much about Metroid)

Also, you can't blame smash for this, smash just copied the alt from the source material, if anything, blame the people who put in the Justin Bailey cheat code.

 

[Erimir]

Also, you can't blame smash for this, smash just copied the alt from the source material, if anything, blame the people who put in the Justin Bailey cheat code.

They're outfits from Metroid Fusion or Zero Mission, one of the GBA games. Not from the original Metroid (the color scheme and outfit was different). The tradition of her taking off her Power Suit and having something skin tight or revealing on underneath started with the first game though.

However, you definitely can blame the Smash developers and/or Metroid people who recommended those outfits (whoever was responsible for the decision) because the fact that they exist in Metroid's history did not obligate them to include those outfits. Notably, Brawl didn't include them.

Whether you think it's problematic that they chose those outfits, it was definitely their choice. This is what I'm getting at with the Bayo personality stuff - saying stuff like this is basically saying they had no choice, therefore you can't criticize them. But they did have choices. Bayo could have a different personality (or make different choices while having basically the same personality), ZSS could have either different palettes for the last two alts or have alts that reference different appearances of Samus*. They decided they wanted those outfits instead of other possibilities - that was their choice.

But like I said, you can argue they're not a problem. But not by saying "get mad at the developers from the 80s". The developers from the 2010s still chose what they wanted to bring back from the 80s.

*A couple options, aside from simple palette swaps would be The Other M Samus in Federation uniform, or Samus with more extensive recolors (changing her skin tone, etc.) referencing Gandrayda or other humanoid characters. They also could've referenced the Justin Bailey sprite coloration with a palette swap that changes the color pattern of her outfit (since the pale white of the original sprite could be taken to be a leotard rather than skin).

 

[Captain Shades]

They're outfits from Metroid Fusion or Zero Mission, one of the GBA games. Not from the original Metroid (the color scheme and outfit was different). The tradition of her taking off her Power Suit and having something skin tight or revealing on underneath started with the first game though.

However, you definitely can blame the Smash developers and/or Metroid people who recommended those outfits (whoever was responsible for the decision) because the fact that they exist in Metroid's history did not obligate them to include those outfits. Notably, Brawl didn't include them.

Whether you think it's problematic that they chose those outfits, it was definitely their choice. This is what I'm getting at with the Bayo personality stuff - saying stuff like this is basically saying they had no choice, therefore you can't criticize them. But they did have choices. Bayo could have a different personality (or make different choices while having basically the same personality), ZSS could have either different palettes for the last two alts or have alts that reference different appearances of Samus*. They decided they wanted those outfits instead of other possibilities - that was their choice.

But like I said, you can argue they're not a problem. But not by saying "get mad at the developers from the 80s". The developers from the 2010s still chose what they wanted to bring back from the 80s.

*A couple options, aside from simple palette swaps would be The Other M Samus in Federation uniform, or Samus with more extensive recolors (changing her skin tone, etc.) referencing Gandrayda or other humanoid characters. They also could've referenced the Justin Bailey sprite coloration with a palette swap that changes the color pattern of her outfit (since the pale white of the original sprite could be taken to be a leotard rather than skin).

So what this comes down to is that you don’t personally like Bayonetta’s personality. Honestly nothing you said detracts from the character, you could claim that they could have chosen a different personality, but then it isn’t Bayonetta. Bayonetta’s personality, design, dialogue, and motivations are all intertwined in some regard and nothing feels out of place. Her story has her hunted down by Angels and Demons, but she’s easily able to dispose of them, so she’s confident. Her story also shows that she has ‘desires’ for a partner whether it be Luka or Jeanne, so she flaunts as she’s confident in her appearance. She has like every benefit and shows a desire to want to be promiscuous with others, so why shouldn’t she do the crazy things she does as it doesn’t harm her in any way and only draws in more attention, which in turn boosts her own ego. Again going back to my examples, this is not simply a female exclusive sexist character trait as many male characters are the same. To go back to an example, Johnny Bravo is very much the male equivalent to Bayonetta. Why does Johnny need to take a shirt off in front of every girl he meets and shake his pecs other than he feels like it and he hopes it’ll gain attention? Or, for a mature example, we now have a new Doctor Fate in the Suicide Squad animated movie that is similar, being a male stripper that flaunts for ladies despite him essentially being a God, and a he is a man who decides it is a good idea to make out with villains and bring girls into his house full of dangerous magic artifacts to “have fun.” This is a character type, not a way to sexualize the female because she’s a female. If the character makes you uncomfortable, than that’s the point. I felt uncomfortable during the Doctor Fate scenes as a straight male as I’m literally watching a male stripper shake it on screen. Now I went into the comments which of course had girls all over him like Bayonetta has guys.

To summarize my main point, Bayonetta is one of hundreds of characters to portray sexuality in a positive manner, which is important for both girls and guys to understand. These characters show that you can be okay with being proud of your body and that it is okay to be sexual. That’s why these characters have a place. Sure they may come off as disgusting to people who don’t find attraction, but they should still view them as positive. Bayonetta, Fate, etc are all heroes despite being deviant, showing that a natural part of human life is okay even if people look down upon it.

As for Samus, is there really an issue? In Smash she wears an outfit that you’d see an average girl at the gym wear. It is comfortable attire, not an inherently sexy outfit, which is fitting for a girl who most likely spends her days in a compressed heat box of a suit. As for why not the Other M suit, you should know the reason as you are the one talking about sexism, and Other M has a legacy to say the least.

 

[l1l1l1l1]

Bayonetta is totally in line with modern sex-positive third wave feminism. No need to manufacture any outrage.

 

[Slugma128]

To be honest, the idea that sexualization and sexism are distinct and unrelated is patent BS.

Now, sexualization is not inherently sexist. Sexual and sensual art need not demean women or perpetuate sexist tropes, etc. but sexualization is often an element in art and media that do those things.

The patterns in how men and women are sexualized (or not) can also reflect sexist patterns in society. Female characters are sexualized in video games far more frequently than male characters and to a greater degree. Characters like Bayonetta have design features that are clearly intended to increase the amount of skin showing for the purpose of titillation even when it makes no sense. The number of female warriors who run around wearing armor on their shoulders and legs but for some reason also covering their crotch and thighs with only a thong, despite going into sword or gun fights, far outstrips male characters running around with armor plating most places but covering their crotch with just a banana hammock. A woman who is supposedly a medieval warrior should be dressed like Brienne of Tarth on Game of Thrones. She wears armor that is intended to protect her from being stabbed or slashed, and it looks the way it ought to for that purpose. Whining that you can be sexy and still be strong is dumb in that context. Brienne is a knight, knights wear armor that protects the body. So no, she really can't be sexy and be a proper knight, except when she's out of her armor. And if she's going to swing a broadsword, she needs muscles. A woman like that can be sexy, depending on what you find sexy, but she can't be a big breasted waif in a thong unless you're throwing realism out the window.

That's not to say that female video game characters are universally treated that way, by any means! Lucina's design is not sexualized at all - sure, she's pretty, but her clothing makes sense and she does not randomly stick her butt out in sexual poses during battle or the like.

Now it is true that sexism and sexualization are not the same thing. Congratulations on knowing that they're not synonyms. That doesn't mean they're unrelated. What message does it send to players when they see female characters scantily-clad for no reason that makes sense from the perspective of story, practicality or sometimes even physics (and frequently with ridiculously large breasts), while male characters are far more likely to be dressed in a way that does make sense?

I think a natural message to take from that is that this game is made for men (or perhaps even more so teenage boys). Female characters are to titillate the player, who is assumed to be male, male characters are to identify with. A female player is probably not fantasizing about wearing a thong into battle. Then people will justify this by saying that women and girls are just less interested, so they have to cater to their audience. But part of the reason that girls reject video games as being for boys is the way the games often send the message that the player is assumed to be male (and straight).

Since this thread is about sexism in character design, sexualization is a natural place to go to. But one could easily critique the design of (to pick the most obvious choice) Princess Peach who is an adult woman who acts extremely girly and various parts of her design reflect either weaponized girliness (she attacks with hearts and rainbows and parasols!) or even being a damsel (she cowers while Toad protects her). That isn't about sexualization but is still about character design. But sexualization is still a major issue in character design.

What exactly is "demeaning women"? And what are "sexist tropes"? When you throw these words around, you have to explain what you mean and use arguments. Othewise people can not take you seriously.

You do know that men and women play different kind of games, right? I remember data from Nintendo during the Wii U era that said that 90% of all players were men. So the games and the sexualization is naturally catering to them. There is nothing sexist about that.

It is not because of sexy women that female "reject" games. I do not know how old you are, but in the 80s most girls picked on boys who played videogames because it was considered anti-social. The majority of women, even today, are more interested in games like Animal Crossing where there are no competing elements and no violence.

The whole reason this "sexist" argument even exists is because feminists underestimates the differences between men and women. They think that if there is not a 50/50 divide between men and women who play videogames, there is something wrong with the games. And that "wrong" is sexualization, hence they think sexualization has anything to do with sexism.

But they are literally just making it up. That is why you call genus sience pseudo science. Because that is what it is.

 

[Erimir]

So what this comes down to is that you don’t personally like Bayonetta’s personality. Honestly nothing you said detracts from the character, you could claim that they could have chosen a different personality, but then it isn’t Bayonetta. Bayonetta’s personality, design, dialogue, and motivations are all intertwined in some regard and nothing feels out of place. Her story has her hunted down by Angels and Demons, but she’s easily able to dispose of them, so she’s confident. Her story also shows that she has ‘desires’ for a partner whether it be Luka or Jeanne, so she flaunts as she’s confident in her appearance. She has like every benefit and shows a desire to want to be promiscuous with others, so why shouldn’t she do the crazy things she does as it doesn’t harm her in any way and only draws in more attention, which in turn boosts her own ego.

The thing is that I don't know of any real life examples of a woman who is an excellent combatant and flaunts her sexuality during combat. The latter is associated with things like mudwrestling, not serious combat.

Again going back to my examples, this is not simply a female exclusive sexist character trait as many male characters are the same. To go back to an example, Johnny Bravo is very much the male equivalent to Bayonetta. Why does Johnny need to take a shirt off in front of every girl he meets and shake his pecs other than he feels like it and he hopes it’ll gain attention?

You can't seriously argue that Johnny Bravo is meant to titillate the audience, while aspects of Bayonetta seem to have been designed for that purpose. And Bayonetta's design is far more sexual than Bravo's.

Also body positivity from a character with an unrealistically idealized body shape is not some radical feminist message. This is like saying that 80s Victoria's Secret catalogues were body positive feminist documents. You can't divorce Bayonetta's attitudes from the way she is designed to look, they are a package.

As for Samus, is there really an issue? In Smash she wears an outfit that you’d see an average girl at the gym wear. It is comfortable attire, not an inherently sexy outfit, which is fitting for a girl who most likely spends her days in a compressed heat box of a suit. As for why not the Other M suit, you should know the reason as you are the one talking about sexism, and Other M has a legacy to say the least.

I wasn't really talking about her outfits per se (although I find the rocket heels very stupid).

I was critiquing the notion that the fact that they're references to previous games absolves the Smash devs of any responsibility. Current developers are not beholden to what was in previous games, and if they felt the outfits were too sexual, they could remove or change them if they wanted. I'm saying you can't offload responsibility onto games that are decades old to justify decisions made in 2018 (or 2017, 2016, given how long dev cycles are). They are responsible for their own decisions.

(I would say the same with regards to comic books and film/TV adaptations not being beholden to comics written 50+ years ago which may reflect more racist or sexist standards, etc.)

 

[Sucumbio]

Bayonetta is pretty much the quintessential example of sexist. Unless the game devs were primarily female (which we know they aren't) it isn't a great example of feminist sexual freedom. It's obviously pandering to the male crowd. For it to not be sexist and still be fun and enticing to males devs should concentrate more on game play and story and less on injecting as many cc's of butt and crotch and cleavage camera action, sound bytes that sound like a bad porno and this overwhelming attention to vanity, seduction and bondage that plagues her game

If you strip (ha) all that away you have a mediocre (at best) beat em up with lazy rpg elements and tons of equally lazy programming.

I'm not suggesting devs can't have an attractive protagonist. Hell they can use playboy models. But don't pretend your product isn't some modern day Leisure Suit Larry cross Streets of Rage. It's insulting to our intelligence as consumers and it perpetuates a greater stereotype that all male gamers are hormone crazed pimple faced loners still fapping in their parent's basement over cartoons. Or worse, these males may actually -expect- females to be slutty, or weakminded or whatever the flavor of the month is.

 

[Mask and Mirror]

Even though I'm a feminist through and through, Smash is better than most games at representing women. Could do better, but relatively benign.

 

[Slugma128]

Bayonetta is pretty much the quintessential example of sexist. Unless the game devs were primarily female (which we know they aren't) it isn't a great example of feminist sexual freedom. It's obviously pandering to the male crowd. For it to not be sexist and still be fun and enticing to males devs should concentrate more on game play and story and less on injecting as many cc's of butt and crotch and cleavage camera action, sound bytes that sound like a bad porno and this overwhelming attention to vanity, seduction and bondage that plagues her game

If you strip (ha) all that away you have a mediocre (at best) beat em up with lazy rpg elements and tons of equally lazy programming.

I'm not suggesting devs can't have an attractive protagonist. Hell they can use playboy models. But don't pretend your product isn't some modern day Leisure Suit Larry cross Streets of Rage. It's insulting to our intelligence as consumers and it perpetuates a greater stereotype that all male gamers are hormone crazed pimple faced loners still fapping in their parent's basement over cartoons. Or worse, these males may actually -expect- females to be slutty, or weakminded or whatever the flavor of the month is.

Again, you mix up sexualization and sexism. That is a very feminist narrative, they do not want beauty norms because they can not live up to them. So what they have done is to push this narrative that "everyone is beautiful" and "everyone is normal". That makes ugly women feel better about themselves, because they do not like to see sexualized, beautiful women. It makes them feel bad about themselves, even if we talk about ficitional characters.

Do you say the same thing about story driven games? That they should pander less to our emotions and have more quality gameplay? I do not think so. So why do you attack sexualized characters? It is all about imagination, whether you cry over the fate of a fictional character in a story driven game, or if you think that sexualized, fictional characters are hot.

You seem to be more afraid of being associated with the "lonely teenage nerd", and that speaks volumes of your self confidence. I love how white knights always try to bad mouth teenage boys, as if it would be something wrong or bad to have a strong sexual drive. The older you get, the weaker your sexual drive get.

You could say that teenage boys like to look at Peach and her butt attacks because they are sexy, and that is pathetic (I would not agree). But using that same logic, you could also say it is pathetic for a grown man to play a game and create an emotional bond with ficitional characters in a story driven game because he does not socialize enough with real people (I would not agree on that either).

I know it is a popular narrative to shame and blame "hormones" and "teenage boys", but it is complete hypocracy because you can shame any group of people using the logic that is ficitional characters affecting our emotions.

Men love to look at sexy women. No feminist in the world and no amount of group pressure will make that go away.

 

[Erimir]

Again, you mix up sexualization and sexism. That is a very feminist narrative, they do not want beauty norms because they can not live up to them.

Ah, feminists are ugly. This is some quality argumentation right here.

You seem to be more afraid of being associated with the "lonely teenage nerd", and that speaks volumes of your self confidence. I love how white knights always try to bad mouth teenage boys, as if it would be something wrong or bad to have a strong sexual drive. The older you get, the weaker your sexual drive get.

You might think that it's immature to value fap material over quality gameplay or story, but you're actually just jealous you can't fap five times a day anymore.

Anyway, big boobies are just as important as story or gameplay, ergo feminism is dumb and sexualization of female characters has nothing to do with sexism. Checkmate.

 

[Slugma128]

Ah, feminists are ugly. This is some quality argumentation right here.
You might think that it's immature to value fap material over quality gameplay or story, but you're actually just jealous you can't fap five times a day anymore.

Anyway, big boobies are just as important as story or gameplay, ergo feminism is dumb and sexualization of female characters has nothing to do with sexism. Checkmate.

A lot of feminists are fat and ugly. The hate when men sexualize attractive women, because that makes them feel unattractive. When it comes to women, it is all about their emotions. They do not necessarily want to hear the truth or facts, they want to feel good.

It has nothing to do with being immature. I am just giving the argument that people love fictional characters for different reasons. We relate to them, we care about them etc. Just look at the Smash community when a certain character gets included. For some reason you say it is OK to care about the inclusion of a character that does not exist in real life, it is OK to cry when a fictional character dies in a story driven game, but it is not OK to think a ficitional character is really sexy? Why do you single that one out?

It is part of the feminist narrative to constantly attack sexualized women, even if they are fictional. Just look at the difference in reactions when a male character is sexualized (men do not care) and when a female character is sexualized (feminists attack it viciously).

 

[Captain Shades]

Wow the Bayonetta conversation has taken an interesting turn. I will try to be respectful and not throw any blame or insults to one group, so I hope I can maybe “clean up” the argument a little bit, is that okay Erimir

The thing is that I don't know of any real life examples of a woman who is an excellent combatant and flaunts her sexuality during combat. The latter is associated with things like mudwrestling, not serious combat.

To take on your first point, while this may not seem like much of an argument, it’s a video game. Video Games portray the unrealistic and this is just one instance. While I agree, stripping in the middle of a fight is dumb and unrealistic, it doesn’t hurt Bayonetta. We have characters in fighting games that definitely do unrealistic fighting methods, see Phoenix Wright in MvC who attempts to solve a court case in the midst of combat, or Incineroar in Smash as he leaves himself wide open for attacks when he does his wrestler motions. While I can see this as a point of how she’s unrealistic, that only hurts if you’re looking for realism, otherwise it is just a character trait made to make her distinct in a world full of plenty similar fighters who are boring and bring nothing distinct or new.

You can't seriously argue that Johnny Bravo is meant to titillate the audience, while aspects of Bayonetta seem to have been designed for that purpose. And Bayonetta's design is far more sexual than Bravo's.

Also body positivity from a character with an unrealistically idealized body shape is not some radical feminist message. This is like saying that 80s Victoria's Secret catalogues were body positive feminist documents. You can't divorce Bayonetta's attitudes from the way she is designed to look, they are a package.

I used Bravo as more of a personality type, to show that this sexual devil type character extends to both genders. I will admit that Bravo wasn’t the best being more downplayed as he was built for children in comparison to Bayonetta, so that is my fault and I am deeply sorry. I did bring up another character though that was more adult being Doctor Fate from the recent Suicide Squad Hell To Pay. He is eerily similar to Bayonetta, choosing to strip even when his life is in danger and having a more prominent sexual characterization.

I’ll post the clips, hopefully it’s okay with the admins, if not just search up the movie

Spoiler: Doctor Fate Scenes

The character basically fits Bayonetta, but on the other shoes. He’s made to be titillating, he has the body of a model, he has very similar ways of expressing his sexuality, and has god like powers that allow him to basically not care about anything.

You make the point about a Victoria Secret catalog and how it’s no different but I believe it is. After reading up on some female game developer’s thoughts on the character they make a good point. Bayonetta is not inherently sexist because she owns her sexuality, creating a sense of ownership and control of what she’s doing. Bayonetta is not being forced or paid to strip down but rather does it because that’s what makes her feel good and what brings confidence. I feel there is a distinction between the two as Bayonetta as a character who chooses to show and takes full ownership over her more sexual aspects, she controls her body, where as a model might just do it for pay, giving up a bit of ownership.

Bayonetta is more or less another face of the positive sexual deviant type group. Yes, they’re hot, that’s somewhat of the point. While you might think this is a bad thing I think the opposite as there are a few factors at play such as them having really poor decision making that makes them comical. These characters are jokes, and part of the joke is that captain sexy is put to the level of a nobody. Johnny can’t get a girl, Bayonetta doesn’t seem capable of even starting a relationship, Doctor Fate gets the s#$& kicked out of him when he thinks he can just use the fact that he’s hot to get what he wants. And if we look at Panty and Stocking, well the two of them have enough issues as well. These characters are confident in their looks which is good, but you also learn that looks aren’t everything as all characters in this category have issues Because they rely on that solely most of the time, leaving their dickish personalities to drive people away from them or get them in trouble.

I bring both these two points up because it really shows two sides of a coin. These characters present us with very expressive sexuality and show that it is okay to be, well, promiscuous. It’s okay to want to show off and feel good about how you look. On the other hand, they show that being hot isn’t everything, and if you go through life thinking your looks will get you everything, than you’ll go nowhere.

Also here, I mine as well leave a link. From what I saw, half had issues with Bayonetta, yet never played the games, yet the ones that did seem to think she’s a fine female character; http://www.negativeworld.org/featur...-bayonetta-franchise-part-1-of-2#.XCKZJxpMGhB

I wasn't really talking about her outfits per se (although I find the rocket heels very stupid).

I was critiquing the notion that the fact that they're references to previous games absolves the Smash devs of any responsibility. Current developers are not beholden to what was in previous games, and if they felt the outfits were too sexual, they could remove or change them if they wanted. I'm saying you can't offload responsibility onto games that are decades old to justify decisions made in 2018 (or 2017, 2016, given how long dev cycles are). They are responsible for their own decisions.

(I would say the same with regards to comic books and film/TV adaptations not being beholden to comics written 50+ years ago which may reflect more racist or sexist standards, etc.)

This is sort of a thin ice comment. You have to remember that franchises have fans, fans that like things a certain way so changing things too radically will send a negative message to the audience. This idea is of changing things to avoid controversy or be progressive may actually be harmful as we’ve seen with Star Wars, Marvel, and so many other franchises. While I do like that outfits are becoming tamer (weird I know), I do think developers have to be careful in how they make changes as to not lose the appeal of the original or change the character of a protagonist people followed for years.

Bayonetta is pretty much the quintessential example of sexist. Unless the game devs were primarily female (which we know they aren't) it isn't a great example of feminist sexual freedom. It's obviously pandering to the male crowd. For it to not be sexist and still be fun and enticing to males devs should concentrate more on game play and story and less on injecting as many cc's of butt and crotch and cleavage camera action, sound bytes that sound like a bad porno and this overwhelming attention to vanity, seduction and bondage that plagues her game

If you strip (ha) all that away you have a mediocre (at best) beat em up with lazy rpg elements and tons of equally lazy programming.

I'm not suggesting devs can't have an attractive protagonist. Hell they can use playboy models. But don't pretend your product isn't some modern day Leisure Suit Larry cross Streets of Rage. It's insulting to our intelligence as consumers and it perpetuates a greater stereotype that all male gamers are hormone crazed pimple faced loners still fapping in their parent's basement over cartoons. Or worse, these males may actually -expect- females to be slutty, or weakminded or whatever the flavor of the month is.

Okay, where to begin

1) Bayonetta was actually designed by a female believe it or not, so her design is not the result of a man

2) Bayonetta...Lazy? You do know Bayonetta is considered to be one of the best action games out there right? Hell, the sequel is probably one of the best reviewed Wii U games of all time.

 

[Erimir]

Slugma128 really out here demonstrating that the desire for big boobs in video games has nothing to do with sexism.

To take on your first point, while this may not seem like much of an argument, it’s a video game. Video Games portray the unrealistic and this is just one instance. While I agree, stripping in the middle of a fight is dumb and unrealistic, it doesn’t hurt Bayonetta. We have characters in fighting games that definitely do unrealistic fighting methods, see Phoenix Wright in MvC who attempts to solve a court case in the midst of combat, or Incineroar in Smash as he leaves himself wide open for attacks when he does his wrestler motions. While I can see this as a point of how she’s unrealistic, that only hurts if you’re looking for realism, otherwise it is just a character trait made to make her distinct in a world full of plenty similar fighters who are boring and bring nothing distinct or new.

1. It's in Bayonetta's game also, not just in Smash, so it's not just about Smash's realism. It also belies the frequent claim that characters like Bayonetta "show that a woman can be strong AND sexy*". That's not a lesson that actually needs to be taught - women don't need a message that they can shoot guns and stick their boobs or ass out at the same time, that's a stupid lesson and it doesn't hold up in real life. The fact that it's totally unrealistic means that this is not a lesson, it's a fantasy. But it's a fantasy for men, IMO.
*Sexy in a particular way, such as being skinny in a way that suggests little muscle mass, having very large breasts, and wearing impractically revealing clothing during combat. You may, of course, find real life female soldiers sexy, but they aren't likely to be waifish and certainly won't be wearing thongs into combat.
2. There are far more female characters that are made "distinct" by having them be sexy and flirty (or girly/childish and frivolous, for that matter) than male characters. There are so many media franchises where there are male characters displaying various traits, and then there's the girl, whose power is that she's girly or sexy. Consider the Smurfs, where the male smurfs embody all sorts of character traits... and then there's Smurfette, whose personality is "girl".
3. The sexiness of Bayonetta, particularly in her game, is often clearly aimed at the player, not the other characters. Many of her poses work for the in-game "camera" but would not work for her opponents. If her opponent can't see her sexy poses, who are they for? They are for an audience that doesn't exist within the game. When the camera focuses on her crotch or butt, is it visible to her opponent? Or is it playing for a camera that doesn't exist within the game universe? When she's fighting non-humanoid monsters, who is she being sexy for? There would be no point to being sexy while fighting off a pack of wolves, for example. The notion that her sexiness is not aimed at the audience and makes total sense within universe is quite dubious.

And the way Bayonetta is/was marketed in many ways (often with pictures concentrating on her crotch or butt and exposed back) belies some of these defenses as well. They had an ad campaign where you literally stripped stickers off to expose that she was naked (covered only with her hair). It's about her powerful personality, yet the marketing concentrates on her body without any of that supposedly exonerating context.

But it's not just that any female character like this is automatically a problem (although there certainly are some that would be offensive in any context). It's also that this type of character is far more frequent for female characters. Male characters tend to display a larger range of personality types, while the lazy route for a female character is to make her distinct by making her sexy or girly/prissy. This pattern suggests that men have a full internal life, while women do not.

Hence you get misogynistic comments like "When it comes to women, it is all about their emotions."

I used Bravo as more of a personality type, to show that this sexual devil type character extends to both genders.

But the pure existence of male counterparts doesn't prove anything. The claim isn't that no male characters are portrayed this way, the claim is that women are portrayed this way far more frequently, to a degree that is a problem.

I did bring up another character though that was more adult being Doctor Fate from the recent Suicide Squad Hell To Pay. He is eerily similar to Bayonetta, choosing to strip even when his life is in danger and having a more prominent sexual characterization.
[...]
The character basically fits Bayonetta, but on the other shoes. He’s made to be titillating, he has the body of a model, he has very similar ways of expressing his sexuality, and has god like powers that allow him to basically not care about anything.

Ok, let's consider some DC characters then... the Justice League cartoons, for example:
Superman, Batman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow, Flash... 5 male members
Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl... 2 female members

Of the male members, only Martian Manhunter exposes much skin, and he's a green alien and I wouldn't say he's portrayed as sexy. The rest are not even plausibly sexualized.

Of the two female members, both expose their shoulders, and Wonder Woman shows her whole legs. Both of them have unrealistically small waists, and despite being an adult woman, Hawkgirl is called "girl". The tiny waists/exaggerated hourglass figures on female characters are a common feature of DC animation in general (aside from the original Batman TAS).

In the movie you're talking about, there are several male members of Suicide Squad, all dressed in ways to protect their bodies, and the two female characters are wearing the lightest clothing, and Harley Quinn is wearing short-shorts and exposed shoulders. Again, it is only the female members of the team that are at all concerned with being sexy while on dangerous missions. More minor characters like Silver Banshee and Knockout are also dressed impractically exposed, Jewelee to a lesser extent (only her shoulders). Scandal Savage is dressed like a normal person. So you have Doctor Fate, while basically all the other male characters are not sexualized or dressed sexily despite going into dangerous situations. While for the women, you have Scandal Savage, with every other female character exposing their shoulders, midriffs, thighs, back, etc. while going into battle.

This movie is thus a good example of how men are really treated the same as women? Where the women almost all prioritize being sexy over safety, and almost all of the men dress for combat? Come the **** on.

This is sort of a thin ice comment. You have to remember that franchises have fans, fans that like things a certain way so changing things too radically will send a negative message to the audience.

This is just offloading responsibility onto the fans. At least that's better than offloading onto decisions made in the 80s.

The devs are responsible for what they put in the game. Full stop. Saying it's primarily anyone else's responsibility is just bad faith.

And anyway, what negative message would they be sending by having the female characters dress appropriately for the roles they have in their games? Did Brawl send a negative message by having ZSS not wear short-shorts and not wear high heels? What negative message are you talking about? This claim is incredibly vague and unsupported.

This idea is of changing things to avoid controversy or be progressive may actually be harmful as we’ve seen with Star Wars, Marvel, and so many other franchises.

Star Wars and Marvel movies are massive financial successes. The Last Jedi, which is the most criticized on this basis (criticisms I disagree with), made $1.3 billion on a budget of $300m.

Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, which I guess is sending a negative message somehow by showing non-white and/or female characters as superheroes (or maybe you don't intend this as a harmfully progressive film?) is the best reviewed Spider-Man ever and is a financial success with a sequel and spinoff already in planning stages.

You're going to have to elaborate on what supposedly has been harmful.

 

[Whia]

A lot of feminists are fat and ugly.

I'd love to watch you try to substantiate this claim.

 

[Captain Shades]

Time to respond

1. It's in Bayonetta's game also, not just in Smash, so it's not just about Smash's realism. It also belies the frequent claim that characters like Bayonetta "show that a woman can be strong AND sexy*". That's not a lesson that actually needs to be taught - women don't need a message that they can shoot guns and stick their boobs or *** out at the same time, that's a stupid lesson and it doesn't hold up in real life. The fact that it's totally unrealistic means that this is not a lesson, it's a fantasy. But it's a fantasy for men, IMO.
*Sexy in a particular way, such as being skinny in a way that suggests little muscle mass, having very large breasts, and wearing impractically revealing clothing during combat. You may, of course, find real life female soldiers sexy, but they aren't likely to be waifish and certainly won't be wearing thongs into combat.

Again, it is a game so unrealistic elements are bound to pop up. I mean, Kratos is able to kill Gods just like Bayonetta yet wears nothing but a loin cloth. Also Bayonetta isn’t waifish, constantly seeming to not understand how to relationship and is completely independent.

2. There are far more female characters that are made "distinct" by having them be sexy and flirty (or girly/childish and frivolous, for that matter) than male characters. There are so many media franchises where there are male characters displaying various traits, and then there's the girl, whose power is that she's girly or sexy. Consider the Smurfs, where the male smurfs embody all sorts of character traits... and then there's Smurfette, whose personality is "girl".

Bayonetta really isn’t ‘the girl’ though. She isn’t typically feminine in any sense of the word, and actually some of her traits aren’t exactly anything that was considered hot at the time, wearing glasses and being around 6ft. were not typical looks for the ‘sexy’ female archetype. It’s also funny because Bayonetta isn’t actually that flirty believe it or not. One guy tries to get with her and she seems turned off by him. She’s more or less just an @$$hole, flaunting her sexuality just to taunt her opponents. She’s more of a b@#$& personality than anything else.

As for the personality, well it’s fine. Now I don’t think every female character should be girly or sexy, but putting restrictions on those sorts of characters only hurts female characters overall as you create an imbalance. Female characters should be allowed to have all character archetypes just like men, or you get the issues we have today. Now every female is ‘bad@$$’ or a punk rebel. We have two character types that define almost all female protagonists in mainstream media and it gets old fast. Most are too afraid to let females be weak, creating unrealistic indestructible forces that have little to no personality, whether it be Rey in Star Wars or Captain Marvel.

While I see what you are saying about an over saturation, you also have to understand that times are changing, and these two character archetypes are now seen as wrong, just like the more masculine He-Man type heroes for boys. Bayonetta and Peach are great to have in changing times as they are quickly becoming a minority group that says it is okay for females to be these characteristics. If a girl wants to be traditionally girly or sexy, than it shouldn’t be looked down upon.

This is also what is great about Smash Ultimate’s female representation, you get a taste of tons of personality types. You get the modern stone cold bad@$$ with Samus, The traditionally feminine archetype with Peach, the sporty tomboy with Daisy, the mother type with Rosalina, the daddy’s girl with Lucina, the smart and nerdy type with Robin, the fit gym type with Wii Fit Trainer, the hard working office girl with Isabelle, the traditionally sexy type with Bayonetta, the rebel punk girl with Inklings, and the more compassionate leader type with Corrin.

The sexiness of Bayonetta, particularly in her game, is often clearly aimed at the player, not the other characters. Many of her poses work for the in-game "camera" but would not work for her opponents. If her opponent can't see her sexy poses, who are they for? They are for an audience that doesn't exist within the game. When the camera focuses on her crotch or butt, is it visible to her opponent? Or is it playing for a camera that doesn't exist within the game universe? When she's fighting non-humanoid monsters, who is she being sexy for? There would be no point to being sexy while fighting off a pack of wolves, for example. The notion that her sexiness is not aimed at the audience and makes total sense within universe is quite dubious.

And the way Bayonetta is/was marketed in many ways (often with pictures concentrating on her crotch or butt and exposed back) belies some of these defenses as well. They had an ad campaign where you literally stripped stickers off to expose that she was naked (covered only with her hair). It's about her powerful personality, yet the marketing concentrates on her body without any of that supposedly exonerating context.

She’s a d@#$. Her sexual mannerisms are used as taunts. She literally has a move where she put a demon into a lock for a humiliating yet sexual whipping session. Bayonetta starts s#$& because she gets pleasure in angering and humiliating others and what is more humiliating and uncomfortable than taking on a personality like hers. In addition to that it’s also intimidating, just listen to how pit reacts in her reveal trailer and how scared he is by her advances. In a way, her personality is a very off putting sense of confidence and cockiness.

Also, never judge something completely based on advertising. Companies will do anything to make a product look appealing to a certain audience. Sometime marketing can completely misconstrued what a product is actually like or play up one element to an 8th degree when there are more parts in play.

The devs are responsible for what they put in the game. Full stop. Saying it's primarily anyone else's responsibility is just bad faith.

And anyway, what negative message would they be sending by having the female characters dress appropriately for the roles they have in their games? Did Brawl send a negative message by having ZSS not wear short-shorts and not wear high heels? What negative message are you talking about? This claim is incredibly vague and unsupported.

Does ZSS having the two outfits send a negative message? Like I’ve said before, ZSS is really wearing a casual gym type suit, something a majority of girls would wear for working out, which fits the character of the fit and strong Samus. It also makes her more human as she’s wearing something more common. Also her outfits for Smash were made by a female developer as Sakurai said a female dev insisted on adding them. As for the heels, it was just an easily explainable excuse to equip Samus with more fire power as the boots have fire exhaustion for attacks and higher jumps. Is it weird looking, yes, but it does serve a purpose in giving more fire power to the depowered Samus.

Ok, let's consider some DC characters then... the Justice League cartoons, for example:
Superman, Batman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow, Flash... 5 male members
Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl... 2 female members

Of the male members, only Martian Manhunter exposes much skin, and he's a green alien and I wouldn't say he's portrayed as sexy. The rest are not even plausibly sexualized.

Of the two female members, both expose their shoulders, and Wonder Woman shows her whole legs. Both of them have unrealistically small waists, and despite being an adult woman, Hawkgirl is called "girl". The tiny waists/exaggerated hourglass figures on female characters are a common feature of DC animation in general (aside from the original Batman TAS).

In the movie you're talking about, there are several male members of Suicide Squad, all dressed in ways to protect their bodies, and the two female characters are wearing the lightest clothing, and Harley Quinn is wearing short-shorts and exposed shoulders. Again, it is only the female members of the team that are at all concerned with being sexy while on dangerous missions. More minor characters like Silver Banshee and Knockout are also dressed impractically exposed, Jewelee to a lesser extent (only her shoulders). Scandal Savage is dressed like a normal person. So you have Doctor Fate, while basically all the other male characters are not sexualized or dressed sexily despite going into dangerous situations. While for the women, you have Scandal Savage, with every other female character exposing their shoulders, midriffs, thighs, back, etc. while going into battle.

This movie is thus a good example of how men are really treated the same as women? Where the women almost all prioritize being sexy over safety, and almost all of the men dress for combat? Come the **** on.

1) Martian Manhunter literally looks like a male stripper and is definitely the most underdressed of the group while keeping a human shape.
2) You brought this up before for male characters, but why is it okay for men to have arms sticking out but not women. Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl are both warrior women. Wonder Woman more specifically is always portrayed as powerful and having parts exposed helps convey that as typically she is ripped. WW has muscles and she isn’t afraid to show it off. I don’t think WW wearing less makes her titilating as she is more so being the female power fantasy being able to crush any man or woman if she felt like it.

3) Isn’t there a shirtless Snake man who walks around in that movie? I guess you can add him to the sexy list. As for Harley and Killer Frost, well, they take different sides. For one, Killer Frost isn’t really dressed up sexually. She has shoulders showing, but honestly is that really sex appeal? She also has ice powers giving her an edge on the men which are all powerless so they need gear, and using ice, she probably prefers to not be bogged down by a bulky outfit as she needs quick movements to operate. As for Harley, I cannot defend her as her outfit keeps within character. Harley is an ‘object.’ While that may seem wrong to say, hear me out. If you know her story, than you know that she is an abuse victim to the Joker, and does anything to please him as she wants to keep her unhealthy relationship going. She wears ‘distasteful’ outfits because that’s what she feels comfortable in and how she feels she’ll get Joker’s attention. She’s owned by him, and then Amanda Waller, her outfits really symbolize her character as she went from a respectable doctor to Joker’s play thing. While she is objectified, that is the point as she portrays a character that lives for others rather than herself, which is why it’s empowering when she finally goes back and finds a way to leave everything behind. So yes, Harley is sexualized, by I think it’s kind of part of the tragedy of the character and Harley should be looked upon as a good character who shows that those in toxic/abusive relationships can get out. Sorry, I felt the need to go over Harley as a character as she really is a ‘good role model’ for people in situations such as her’s to look towards as in DC media, she does eventually find a way out, and after New 52 she has put on more conserved outfits as a result as she is no longer someone else’s slave.

Star Wars and Marvel movies are massive financial successes. The Last Jedi, which is the most criticized on this basis (criticisms I disagree with), made $1.3 billion on a budget of $300m.

Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, which I guess is sending a negative message somehow by showing non-white and/or female characters as superheroes (or maybe you don't intend this as a harmfully progressive film?) is the best reviewed Spider-Man ever and is a financial success with a sequel and spinoff already in planning stages.

You're going to have to elaborate on what supposedly has been harmful.

Umm..Solo did terribly thanks to the politics surrounding the Last Jedi. The Last Jedi May be the last successful Star Wars film as fan outrage was high after seeing that film, causing them to boycott Solo and put the Star Wars franchise in Jeopardy.

Marvel comics have not been selling, there is a literal land fill of unsold comics, and some stores have started going out of business due to the low comic sales of Marvel in the past few years. Also, the Solo squad is gearing up for the Captain Marvel movie, so let’s see how that goes.

Ghost Busters was another sucessful brand that was boycotted to hell and completely doomed an entire cinematic universe.




Honestly, as a real talk sort of point. Do you really see just showing a little bit of skin as sexist? I mean, I see nothing wrong with open arms or legs, maybe even stomach showing. It’s not that uncommon to see these parts exposed on either males or females. You seem to have a lot of restrictions on how characters dress and I don’t know why? Most are not actually enticing and are pretty standard. If girls were wearing like a bikini in non swimming situations, maybe I’d see your point, but you honestly seem to have really restrictive guidelines on character design after reading some of your responses.

IDK, I can probably keep arguing, but I feel we have to stop at some point. Thanks for the perspective, ironically having a position I typically agree with. I hope I came off as somewhat respectful after seeing some responses to you. I guess to conclude this post, I believe in allowing people to create whatever they want, and not calling sexist right away. I feel every character has a place and while Inprefer my Lucina, I cannot deny that Bayonetta holds an appeal for many, including women, so I keep my position on saying that Smash is a great representation of the greater horizon of female characters and Bayonetta is perfectly fine as a protagonist.

 

[Erimir]

Bayonetta really isn’t ‘the girl’ though.

That's not what I was claiming.

She’s a d@#$. Her sexual mannerisms are used as taunts. She literally has a move where she put a demon into a lock for a humiliating yet sexual whipping session. Bayonetta starts s#$& because she gets pleasure in angering and humiliating others and what is more humiliating and uncomfortable than taking on a personality like hers. In addition to that it’s also intimidating, just listen to how pit reacts in her reveal trailer and how scared he is by her advances. In a way, her personality is a very off putting sense of confidence and cockiness.

This is not a response in any way to the point I was making about Bayonetta's sexualized behavior being aimed at the player (considering how the poses may be directed at the camera rather than an enemy, and that non-human/humanoid enemies wouldn't be affected by her sexual behavior, etc.).

Also, never judge something completely based on advertising. Companies will do anything to make a product look appealing to a certain audience. Sometime marketing can completely misconstrued what a product is actually like or play up one element to an 8th degree when there are more parts in play.

I... only just now brought up advertising. Your response is not to address what the advertising did and how it plays directly into the aspects I'm criticizing, and instead to chide me not to judge something "completely" based on advertising. You've just read me criticizing on the basis of all sorts of other things and mention advertising once yet are implying I'm judging completely based on advertising.

This does not reflect well on your argument.

Does ZSS having the two outfits send a negative message?

You're the one who claimed that leaving out stuff like that would send a negative message! You made the claim. Now instead of supporting your claim, you're trying to turn it around instead of explaining what you meant.

I pointed out the devs had many options besides including the short-shorts, so they weren't "forced" to include them. Your response suggests there would've been some sort of negative message from not including such things.

As for the heels, it was just an easily explainable excuse to equip Samus with more fire power as the boots have fire exhaustion for attacks and higher jumps. Is it weird looking, yes, but it does serve a purpose in giving more fire power to the depowered Samus.

...No, they are not "easily explainable" that way. Rocket boots? Sure. Rocket heels? No. They are rocket high heels to make the outfit sexier, and for no other reason. There is no reason for her to wear heels. It does not make the rocket shoes work any better, it does not aid her in combat in any way, high heels make it harder to fight or even just run.

And even so, you could completely remove them from ZSS's design, have her wear normal footwear and keep her moveset identical and literally nobody would be like "but how can she jump so high and kick so hard?!?!"

1) Martian Manhunter literally looks like a male stripper

Not really. He's a green alien and maintains a stoic and largely emotionless demeanor basically all the time. It's not just about the amount of skin, but how it is presented and the behavior that goes with it.

This is why The Hawkeye Initiative was a thing. When a man is put into the same poses, how ludicrous they are becomes obvious. And it also becomes obvious that no, Martian Manhunter having a bare chest does not make it the same thing.

2) You brought this up before for male characters, but why is it okay for men to have arms sticking out but not women.

What are you talking about? The men (Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow) almost all don't have exposed shoulders on their outfits, while the women all do. And exposed shoulders do 1. make an outfit sexier for a woman and 2. make her more vulnerable in a combat situation, which is relevant for a superhero.

Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl are both warrior women. Wonder Woman more specifically is always portrayed as powerful and having parts exposed helps convey that as typically she is ripped.

Why are Batman and Superman not portrayed with bare arms and legs to convey that they are ripped? Is that necessary to convey that they are muscular?

WW has muscles and she isn’t afraid to show it off.

Are Batman and Superman and Flash afraid to show their muscles or something then?

You're doing this thing where you're just making up explanations and not addressing why Wonder Woman is that way and why Batman is not. I don't care about some explanation you pulled out of your ass about how Diana is proud of her body, like she's a real woman and that's the real explanation. She is drawn that way by artists, who choose not to have the male characters dress similarly. Your explanation needs to refer to their motivations, not the motivations of an imaginary person.

Also, I respond to your picture of Wonder Woman with this:

Yeah, Wonder Woman is never drawn in a sexualized way. That's why that pose on a man looks totally normal and just like powerful and able to crush his opponents and stuff.

[a bunch of stuff about Suicide Squad]

None of this addressed my point which is that the male characters are almost all dressed practically and not in a sexy manner, and almost all of the female characters have impractical aspects of their costumes which also make them sexier.

Giving me a bunch of lines explaining why Harley Quinn dresses that way does not address that.

Umm..Solo did terribly thanks to the politics surrounding the Last Jedi.

Solo did bad because it wasn't that good, and the reviews were correspondingly worse. It wasn't very original and didn't add much to Han Solo's story. I liked The Last Jedi more than most of the Star Wars films and have no problem with the "politics" surrounding it, and that's my opinion of Solo.

If you think a fan boycott by whiny sexists or racists is why it did worse, you're going to have to present evidence.

The Last Jedi May be the last successful Star Wars film as fan outrage was high after seeing that film, causing them to boycott Solo and put the Star Wars franchise in Jeopardy.

Yeah, I doubt it.

Marvel comics have not been selling, there is a literal land fill of unsold comics, and some stores have started going out of business due to the low comic sales of Marvel in the past few years.

Marvel Studios is doing gangbusters though. And you haven't supported the claim that it's due to their politics being too left-wing. Also: many Marvel characters have had left-leaning messages from the beginning, like the X-Men with mutants as an allegory for racial discrimination (and later, LGBT people) or Captain America who has always been a New Deal progressive at the minimum.

(Maybe making Captain America a crypto-Nazi was worse for their sales than having him be left-leaning?)

Ghost Busters was another sucessful brand that was boycotted to hell and completely doomed an entire cinematic universe.

Now I know you're full of it and just have an axe to grind. These bad faith aspects are just piling up.

Ghostbusters made $300m on a $30m budget. The studios would love for all of their movies to be boycotted this way. And Ghostbusters wasn't doing **** until that reboot came along. Yes, they were doomed from going from no movies in 27 years to one that made 10x its production budget in revenue. My god, the horror.

Honestly, as a real talk sort of point. Do you really see just showing a little bit of skin as sexist? I mean, I see nothing wrong with open arms or legs, maybe even stomach showing. It’s not that uncommon to see these parts exposed on either males or females. You seem to have a lot of restrictions on how characters dress and I don’t know why? Most are not actually enticing and are pretty standard. If girls were wearing like a bikini in non swimming situations, maybe I’d see your point, but you honestly seem to have really restrictive guidelines on character design after reading some of your responses.

My thoughts are that characters should dress in a way that makes sense with the story and scenario, and the story and scenario should not clearly be designed as an excuse for the woman to get naked (as Bayonetta's hair-based clothing powers are).

You know, unless it's porn. That's fine in porn.

IDK, I can probably keep arguing, but I feel we have to stop at some point.

I mean, I guess the point where you claim that a series that hadn't had a theatrical release in 27 years and then had a movie that made $300m on a $30m budget was somehow destroyed by this is a pretty good point to stop because you're clearly not arguing in good faith or are just bull****ting at this point.

 

[Slugma128]

I'd love to watch you try to substantiate this claim.

Look at the feminist movements in American colleges. Look at the socially rejected girls who have realized they can not live up to the beauty standard. Not all feminists are fat and ugly, but a lot of them sure are.

Also, Erimir is making a big mistake in his argumentation because he thinks the same thing applies for both men and women. For example, he says that if you put men in the same poses as women, it becomes obvious how ******** the poses are. What he does not understand is that women simply look better in some poses than men do, due to the differences of the sexes.

For example, men look really good in suits and ties because just like the male body, suits and ties have very straight lines. While women look better in dresses which are fluffy and curvy, just like their bodies.

If you want us to take you seriously, Erimir, you first have to acknowledge that you can not apply the same things or the same mentality on women as you do on men. Men love to see women in thongs, but women do not love to see men in thongs. You seem to think that gender equality is based on that men and women work in the same way - the reality is just the opposite.

So instead of answering specifically to what you have said, I have taken the essense of it and replied to that.

 

[TheRockingGoomba]

"Sexism in Smash Bros in general"
lemmie go grab some popcorn, i wanna see who gets doxxed first.

 

[Whia]

Look at the feminist movements in American colleges. Look at the socially rejected girls who have realized they can not live up to the beauty standard. Not all feminists are fat and ugly, but a lot of them sure are.

“Look at them” is not substantiation of your claim.

 

[Captain Shades]

My thoughts are that characters should dress in a way that makes sense with the story and scenario, and the story and scenario should not clearly be designed as an excuse for the woman to get naked (as Bayonetta's hair-based clothing powers are).

You know, unless it's porn. That's fine in porn.

You forget that character plays a factor. Even in porn, why should I believe that a shy girl, like most guys seem to like, would strip down if she portrays a character that can barely even be seen, let alone be seen naked.

Also in this scenario, why should Gods need to wear anything. You bring up how characters should look battle ready if they are fighters, but what about the already powered ones. Why shouldn’t Super Man or Wonder Woman just walk into a battle naked, they are immune to everything outside of kryptonite for Super Man, so why not? Honestly it’s just character design, making characters stand out and being unique. As long as the personality calls for it, why not.

I can say that He-Man and Kratos going into battle with nothing but a loincloth is completely moronic, but then again I recognize the characters based on the design, and both are competent enough to show that clothing isn’t needed for them. Plus these excuses also follow male characters, Aquaman has tougher skin, so DC did this to boost more sales...

To comment on the poor franchises, yes many are dying due to fan backlash and not liking the direction due to forced diversity and writers botching up what characters stand for because of their political message.

I can keep posting, there’s like an infinite amount of material as Star Wars and Marvel fans go over everything.

To continue, toy sales for Star Wars have plummeted and so have the DVD sales for The Last Jedi. Marvel has issues with comic sales, as a landfill is filled with their books because comic readers are done with how they treat their characters. This also carries over to the movies now as Captain Marvel is hated in the comics, so people are already gearing up to doom her movie.

As for Ghostbusters, it was a failure. Forbes and The HollyWood Reporter both estimated around a 70 million loss for Sony. Plus only making 46M within the first week is pathetic. While you could argue it’s because of how old the franchise is, I feel that point is null void. Ghostbusters is a household name, and considered to be an 80s classic up there with Back To The Future and Star Wars. It should be making huge sales. Plus, the time shouldn’t come into play when Ghostbusters is 27 at the time and fails, but Mad Max was 30 with less recognition and was a financial success in every regard.

Clearly challenging your fan base nowadays comes with consequences. The only success franchise that has creators belittle their audience while making drastic changes is Teen Titans Go. Otherwise you end up with a Justice League situation where no one goes to see your products after you mismanaged characters for so long. Or you can try to shove modern politics in and have fans leave as a result.



As for the Justice League, again why is it an issue. You bring up that there is a distinction between Martian Manhunter and being sexualized due to his personality being stoic. That’s fine, but aren’t Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl the same? Both take things relatively seriously and Wonder Woman is about as capable and reliable as Batman and Superman. Again, what’s the difference between them being sexual and Martian Manhunter. And for that matter, what about Aquaman who is shirtless in both the movie and the TV show. Green Arrow is another figure in both live action and animation that shows off his arms, and Robin seems to enjoy showing off his leg game in most older DC media.

Also I cannot wait to see THICC Hawkeye in Avengers 4 Part 2. Maybe that’s how Thanos dies

Also you seem to forget Knightwing exists as he too is put in some ‘sexual’ poses.

Or Batman

Yes, the second image is real, DC did show off Batman’s Batawang in a comic. A recent comic too.

I guess it’s safe to say that many characters are drawn/ presented sexually, so WW isn’t at all alone. I mean, for god sakes Batman and Robin both had butt and nipple zoom ins in Batman & Robin. For the most part WW is handled with a lot of respect or at least as much as her colleagues. Every now and again you’ll have weird posing, that’s just what happens when multiple artists of varying styles take her on over the years and on a dead line. Every character has their unnatural moments in comics, even on your Hawkeye post, many in the comments were wondering if comic artist just didn’t understand proper anatomy, which happens because they either don’t understand how to draw correctly or are racing to meet the deadline.



Finally, to get to Bayonetta, there’s nothing wrong with her. She’s the perfect blend of a modern bad@$$ heroine and a more traditional sexual deviant. She’s the best of both worlds which makes her unique as she is not one or the other. I feel that so many believe that to be a strong character, they are completely clothed in Armor, ready for battle. This simply isn’t true though, armor restricts movements and a lack of clothing does not hurt the strong design of a character. Aquaman can be shirtless, so can He-Man as it shows a bit of power and clearly gets the attention of female viewers. Women can be the same. WW is strong, and I’ve never seen her as a ‘hot’ character as she is portrayed as a muscular women, wearing a little less to improve her speed and agility as well as paying respect to her warrior culture.

Look at the feminist movements in American colleges. Look at the socially rejected girls who have realized they can not live up to the beauty standard. Not all feminists are fat and ugly, but a lot of them sure are.

Also, Erimir is making a big mistake in his argumentation because he thinks the same thing applies for both men and women. For example, he says that if you put men in the same poses as women, it becomes obvious how ******** the poses are. What he does not understand is that women simply look better in some poses than men do, due to the differences of the sexes.

For example, men look really good in suits and ties because just like the male body, suits and ties have very straight lines. While women look better in dresses which are fluffy and curvy, just like their bodies.

If you want us to take you seriously, Erimir, you first have to acknowledge that you can not apply the same things or the same mentality on women as you do on men. Men love to see women in thongs, but women do not love to see men in thongs. You seem to think that gender equality is based on that men and women work in the same way - the reality is just the opposite.

So instead of answering specifically to what you have said, I have taken the essense of it and replied to that.

I must say you brought up a good point as anatomy is a major factor in poses. A lack of understanding is also how you get the weird poses in some cases. And some poss are naturally suited to one body type more than another. I think sexes shoul$ be treated equally, but I also acknowledge that there are differences that do come up and I cannot fault an artist for putting females in poses that they can do and men can’t.

"Sexism in Smash Bros in general"
lemmie go grab some popcorn, i wanna see who gets doxxed first.

I’ll raise my hand as the way things are going, I’ll be doxxed first.

 

[Daedra]

 

[Captain Shades]

View attachment 184555

Thank you for posting a picture of such a handsome young gentleman. As a blonde boy, I strive to look like Shulk.

 

[Daedra]

Thank you for posting a picture of such a handsome young gentleman. As a blonde boy, I strive to look like Shulk.

Fax shulk lookin kinda thic no cap

 

[Slugma128]

“Look at them” is not substantiation of your claim.

Yes it is. There are tons of videos on YouTube that shows ugly, angry women screaming about feminism at universities and colleges.

View attachment 184555

This is a good one. Have you ever seen a male complaining about Shulk being "unnecessarily sexualized" (any male who is not a feminist)? No. It simply does not happen.

Only women complain about ficitional women being "too sexy", because they do not like how fictional characters affect the beauty standard. It makes them feel ugly and useless. Men do not work in that way, because women do not value mens looks as strongly as men value womens looks.

 

[Whia]

Yes it is. There are tons of videos on YouTube that shows ugly, angry women screaming about feminism at universities and colleges.

There are also tons of conventionally attractive feminists. What is the actual ratio of unattractive vs. attractive ones? Give me the numbers. Show me some meta-studies. Actually demonstrate your claim.

 

[Captain Shades]

Guys, we should just let this thread die now. It should have ended in September. I think it’s safe to say that many think of Smash as a good representation that could do better in the future given the addition of more female characters, which will most likely happen. I think we’ve strayed too far from the topic of Smash and made this thread an anti-feminist/ YouTube politics thread.

 

[Slugma128]

There are also tons of conventionally attractive feminists. What is the actual ratio of unattractive vs. attractive ones? Give me the numbers. Show me some meta-studies. Actually demonstrate your claim.

Demonstrate yours first then. Where are your numbers for the things you claim?

 

[Whia]

Demonstrate yours first then. Where are your numbers for the things you claim?

So you dodge the burden of proof for 2 weeks and then come back with "demonstrate yours first."

I lol'd.

 

[Slugma128]

So you dodge the burden of proof for 2 weeks and then come back with "demonstrate yours first."

I lol'd.

No, I just showed you that there are no numbers. This is based on impressions. You do not have any numbers either, and what you say is also based on impression.

 

[Sucumbio]

.....

He didn't make any recent claims tho. He just popped in to say Prove It and you said no you first. That's called non sequitur. Should he make a claim I'm sure he'll back it with proper citation because he's a veteran of this forum and knows how to properly respond!

Meanwhile I don't wish to disparage your stance but it is literally doomed from the start. Your very world view hinges on, ironically, the sexist mindset. Plumbing does not equal ability. Looks do not equal quality. Defending a mos does not equate to being less of a person. Each statement you make resembles a mindset of someone who has been raised to believe a set of lies that are now so intrinsic you cannot possibly accept an alternative. We are therefor left with sound bytes and bullet points from any typical MRA blog which makes such grandiose claims as

Feminists are jealous of hot women.
Men who defend them are White Knights.
Men and Women are built differently so should be treated differently.

Etc. Etc.

 

[Whia]

No, I just showed you that there are no numbers. This is based on impressions. You do not have any numbers either, and what you say is also based on impression.

Right, so you admit to making a claim, repeatedly defending that claim, and using that claim as a premise in your argument, all the while knowing you couldn’t demonstrate it. As a general rule, try to avoid doing that in the future.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Captain Shades With all due respect, you may just want to delete that photo of Batman (for obvious reasons).

 

[Captain Shades]

Captain Shades With all due respect, you may just want to delete that photo of Batman (for obvious reasons).

To be fair, it’s censored and clearly been up with no concern, so I should be fine, plus I feel it got my point across

 

[Mogisthelioma]

To be fair, it’s censored and clearly been up with no concern, so I should be fine, plus I feel it got my point across

Yeah I guess you're right, nvm.

 

[Captain Shades]

Yeah I guess you're right, nvm.

Thanks anyway, it’s nice to see the Bandana Dee squad looking out for others.

 

[NamesOA]

It honestly bothers me when feminists get angry over such trivial things, what I can understand is them fighting against sexual harassment, ****, equal pay, and all of the above. But when its gets to them getting all pissy over some women showing "to much" skin in a video game it's nit-picking to the 10th degree, focus on real world problems and not samus' alt. if you don't like it don't use the alt or stop playing the game its as simple as that. In my opinion i'd think samus would be empowering women being a badass bounty hunter and all.

 

[Lore]

It honestly bothers me when feminists get angry over such trivial things, what I can understand is them fighting against sexual harassment, ****, equal pay, and all of the above. But when its gets to them getting all pissy over some women showing "to much" skin in a video game it's nit-picking to the 10th degree, focus on real world problems and not samus' alt. if you don't like it don't use the alt or stop playing the game its as simple as that. In my opinion i'd think samus would be empowering women being a badass bounty hunter and all.

It's a very flawed argument to call things "trivial" when it bothers someone. It looks down upon those who are bothered by it.

Yeah Samus is empowering. That also means that upping her sex appeal tends to reduce that a bit. I fully believe that sexualized characters can be empowering; just look at Bayonetta. However, Bayonetta started as a sexualized character while Samus did not (aside from the secret ending bikini shots, which always felt a bit out of place imo).

Going from powersuit badass to skintight-suit fighter is one thing, and it was a good contrast at first (disregarding the obvious sex appeal of the suit). But adding in the half-nude costume just continued the sexualization of a character that wasn't originally that, and it feels weird.

 

[Captain Shades]

It's a very flawed argument to call things "trivial" when it bothers someone. It looks down upon those who are bothered by it.

Yeah Samus is empowering. That also means that upping her sex appeal tends to reduce that a bit. I fully believe that sexualized characters can be empowering; just look at Bayonetta. However, Bayonetta started as a sexualized character while Samus did not (aside from the secret ending bikini shots, which always felt a bit out of place imo).

Going from powersuit badass to skintight-suit fighter is one thing, and it was a good contrast at first (disregarding the obvious sex appeal of the suit). But adding in the half-nude costume just continued the sexualization of a character that wasn't originally that, and it feels weird.

Sorry I’m late, but I feel the need to comment.

I honestly don’t think that Samus has been more sexualized over the years, quite frankly it seems more like the opposite as she has been wearing more common/practical outfits.

Her Zero Suit makes perfect sense as most would wear some sort of flexible, yet skin tight suit if they were to put on something more bulky. Samus is literally wearing a tank of armor, so off course she would wear something a little more skin tight as she then wouldn’t be completely naked outside the suit. Her Zero Suit is honestly one of the most practical and nonsexualized outfits she has had as previous entries only had her in a bra and underwear (Metroid and Super Metroid).

As for the ‘half nude suit’ I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal. It’s not an uncommon outfit by any means, and honestly just looks like the outfit that an average woman going to the gym would wear. It makes sense that the outfit is what Samus wears in her spare time as she most likely does go to some kind of gym or at least stays fit.

Samus has been treated with a lot of respect by Nintendo baring the one mistake with Other M, and Nintendo has only really desexualized her over the years with less revealing outfits when out of the suit and a bit of reductions here or there while buffing her arms a bit. I feel like the internet’s ‘obsessions’ with Samus and the sort of poorly thought out heels that Sakurai added to make moves pop are really the only things pushing Samus’s looks into the risky territory.

 

[Lore]

I'm fine with the Zero Suit as a concept.

But explicitly adding the half-nude costume when it didn't exist previously? The "gym" reasoning feels a little weak.

Edit: Also inb4 it was in the original metroid with Justin Bailey, etc. That's reaching. They knew what they were doing.