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Sexism in smash bros in general and character design:

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FirestormNeos

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As for Samus’s Costume, was it really any worse than Shulk’s underwear. Plus Sakurai stated that a female developer made her suit in a Miiverse post, so if it is sexist, I’d bring it up to the female staff.
Assuming Samus' Fusion/Zero Mission suit aren't sexist (I'd like to think they're not, but the whole point of this thread is to debate such matters, so I'm not going to jump to any rash conclusions), they wouldn't be "not sexist" because a woman designed them. They'd be "not sexist" because sexual+revealing clothing does not automatically equal sexism.

After all, Other M would still be an appalling dumpster fire, regardless of the gender of the people responsible for its existence.
 

NocturnalQuill

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They'd be "not sexist" because sexual+revealing clothing does not automatically equal sexism.
I think this nicely encapsulates my feelings on all this. When people claim that video games cause violence, I can at least see the connection. The player is being rewarded in-game for performing a certain action. Decades of research prove that this doesn't translate to real life, but it's not the most illogical conclusion. However, the idea that portraying female characters as sexually desirable is somehow going to make men hate women blows my mind. How do you even connect those two dots?
 

Over9000BPM

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I’ve actually thought about this topic, and honestly, I think Smash and Nintendo are the best at representing both genders. I think the key thing about Smash, and now more than ever, is variety. Smash isn’t something like SNK Heroines where every character has relatively the same body type, basically sexually designed characters in every sense of the word. There is a wide arrange of personality, design, and body types present in Smash. Take the males for example;

1) Mario, Olimar, Toon Link, and Little Mac are all short
2) Marth, Link, maybe even Pit all have a younger type of attractiveness to them (basically well toned)
3) Captain Falcon, Ike, heck even Snake are very muscular men, the more manly type
4) you even have heavier men like Wario (who’s actually pretty muscular)
5) Tall men with Snake

The females are the same way with many different types
1) Busty: Bayonetta
2) Flat: Lucina
3) Tall: Bayonetta, Rosalina, and Palutena, maybe even Samus
4) Short: Lucina (Technically)
5) Now Samus has even gotten a little muscular

Many of the females are pretty conservative when it comes to dress in Smash, Bayonetta really being the only outlier. Characters like Lucina are covered head to toe, showing little to no skin.

As for Samus’s Costume, was it really any worse than Shulk’s underwear. Plus Sakurai stated that a female developer made her suit in a Miiverse post, so if it is sexist, I’d bring it up to the female staff.

Honestly Smash has done well with designs. I think they’ve done the best to include everything that’s basically unchangable about a person in terms of body image, so whether your tall, medium, short, muscular, busty, flat, or all of the above, you have at least one character to represent you.

I don’t know if this answered the question, but I though I’d chime in.
I just wish Samus was busty AND muscular, like she is in Samus Returns. The Ultimate version is basically the same shape as Wii Fit Trainer and I hate it. In my eyes, Samus should be built like a superhero, not a real life athlete.
 
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Captain Shades

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I just wish Samus was busty AND muscular, like she is in Samus Returns. The Ultimate version is basically the same shape as Wii Fit Trainer and I hate it. In my eyes, Samus should be built like a superhero, not a real life athlete.
I’d say her design closely resembles the Brawl version, which I always thought looked better as Samus being busty did make her look a little weird in 4, at least to me. She seemed even bustier than Bayonetta, which is really strange, so I’m fine with the change. I can see your argument though.
 

Over9000BPM

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I’d say her design closely resembles the Brawl version, which I always thought looked better as Samus being busty did make her look a little weird in 4, at least to me. She seemed even bustier than Bayonetta, which is really strange, so I’m fine with the change. I can see your argument though.
I... what? Look at these 3 pictures. Sma4sh is not the outlier here?


1BD45956-0972-49F8-BFBE-A2AD537DF65A.jpeg
FA41A0EE-03F9-4FE0-8E48-B6654CC6EB5B.jpeg
FFABF5F0-B2E9-4D15-877F-BF1501CD9CC9.jpeg
 
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FirestormNeos

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I... what? Look at these 3 pictures. Sma4sh is not the outlier here?
Brawl is the outlier. Yeah, the rocket shoes are a bit jarring, but at least the Zero Suit in Smash 4 and Ultimate looks comfy to wear (if a tad tight). Brawl's Zero Suit looks like a cheap rubber suit you buy at the dollar store for some inexplicable reason. You put that outfit into a suit of power armor, and I assure you that gross garbage is going to get ripped and torn just by walking too hard.

Like, holy crap, Brawl's artstyle has not aged well at all.
 
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Over9000BPM

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Brawl is the outlier. Yeah, the rocket shoes are a bit jarring, but at least the Zero Suit in Smash 4 and Ultimate looks somewhat comfy to wear. Brawl's Zero Suit looks like a cheap rubber suit you buy at the dollar store for some inexplicable reason. You put that outfit into a suit of power armor, and I assure you that gross garbage is going to get ripped and torn just by walking too hard.

Like, holy crap, Brawl's artstyle has not aged well at all.
I agree 100% with that, but it’s not the answer written on the card :p

Here’s a clue: The render of her in the most recent Metroid game, AND NO I WILL NOT SHUT UP ABOUT SAMUS RETURNS IT IS A MASTERPIECE
33085A2F-FEDA-448D-85CE-BDC5E24FBD71.png
 
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Captain Shades

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He does? I honestly didn’t know that. He should have used these :(

View attachment 163902
Well, not confirmed for every character, as not all have figures, he has been posted up about how he bought new figures, which many in the Smash community have said that he does sometimes use figures for general poses, as to make the development of characters easier. One of the biggest examples is that he apparently bought like a mecha-anime figure, which many take as a clue to Elma’s (Xenoblade) inclusion as she doesn’t have a figure but does ride around in mechs.

Also he wouldn’t use those figures as he needs them to be free to do multiple different types of poses, which that Other M Samus is fantastic at.

1536875475477.jpeg 1536875534600.jpeg
 
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iCrash

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I think players making remarks to other players that makes them feel unwelcome online or at events is a general issue. Sometimes I think that can be just toxic players looking for something, anything to put another player down, and they can make remarks with the intent to hurt.


As for character design, I think arguing design is sexist is honestly ridiculous. Sure, some female characters design shows a lot of skin, but you also see male characters with six packs made of steel. Saying its sexist against women specifically is looking at things selectively.
 

Over9000BPM

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I think players making remarks to other players that makes them feel unwelcome online or at events is a general issue. Sometimes I think that can be just toxic players looking for something, anything to put another player down, and they can make remarks with the intent to hurt.


As for character design, I think arguing design is sexist is honestly ridiculous. Sure, some female characters design shows a lot of skin, but you also see male characters with six packs made of steel. Saying its sexist against women specifically is looking at things selectively.
Yeah, between ZSS and Snake we’ve all lost equally. I want both restored to their former, nay, canonical glory. Especially with that spider limbed freak strutting around intact. :mad:
 

Arle Nadja

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Sexism in the community is a big issue. A big issue that is not exclusive to Smash--or even competitive video games. I'd haphazardly label it an internet thing that tends to leak into multiplayer games. Trying to get rid of it is a seemingly hopeless task. My parents knew the internet had a problem with women, and as far as I can tell it's only gotten worse since well, the invention of the internet. Chauvinism is in fashion right now, y'know? I think the best we can do as individuals is put our best foot forward, be considerate and supportive of our female friends in the community and maybe address any bad habits we may have in terms of the language we use. Jokes relating to sexual assault and gendered slurs are both good things to cut out of your humor if you want to make women more comfortable.

Another thing that should probably be said about interacting with women is that a lot of us are conditioned by society to avoid confrontations compared to men. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but I am saying it's different. Girls may not say anything if you're bothering them, because for a lot of us it's just easier to just walk away and find something less frustrating to do with our time, or pretend not to be bothered so that we don't attract any additional unwanted attention. You may have noticed but any time a woman complains about gendered mistreatment there's a pretty much immediate backlash, even if they have a legitimate complaint. It's pretty scary confronting strangers and it's a huge pain in the butt to deal with. That's not going to change, but if you want to help you can increase the quality of communication by simply asking if someone is comfortable with what's currently going on or being said, especially if it's sketchy or negative.

Little things like that can't make the problem go away, but they can reduce the severity of the problem. And they also double as being a good friend. For me as a girl myself all of this just falls under "Treat others the way you'd like to be treated."




As for in-game sexism problems, honestly, I don't think there is any.

Let me preface this by saying that I like Samus. I think she stars in some good games. I also think she's a terrible female empowerment icon. That Zero Suit she runs around in as a design choice really only appeals to men. I also don't aspire to go fight hellbeasts on an alien planet. There's nothing relatable about Samus' personality, or any real commentary on society or the state of gender relations. There is not a person on this planet that can do the things that Samus does without suffering serious harm to their mental health in the process. (I mean, technically Metroid has touched on that but they haven't exactly executed on those ideas well in the past. So until they do it's a bit of a moot point.) She empowers women about as well as Duke Nukem empowers men. Simply put, her gender doesn't matter. That's not a good thing. It's also not a bad thing. Samus doesn't have to empower women.

Because she's just one character, in a game with plenty of much better female characters (My opinion, of course)

Yeah, Zero Suit Samus' design is blatant pandering to the male gaze. But I don't think it's a very big deal when you consider how many other female characters are in the game who are arguably better.

Robin is probably a better example of a (potentially) female character whose gender isn't generally treated as a big deal. She isn't quite as inhuman in terms of her personality.

Rosalina is a pretty neat take on the whole girly princess archetype. The way she nurtures lumas to accomplish great things is actually a pretty empowering take on an otherwise traditional gender role. Her mothering nature and femininity paint her as a matriarch, as someone whose actions carry a lot of weight. She strikes me as a positive character.

Hell, let's talk about Princess Peach. Her entire fighting style in Smash basically boils down to a satirical parody of femininity. Is she sexualized? Yeah. Does she fall into a lot of tropes that have historically been demeaning or offputting to women? Yeah. Does she make fun of women? Kinda, yeah. But... she's also a joke character. A very funny joke character in a dress that is uncannily beautiful and stylish. I have more in common with Princess Peach, an absurdist joke character, than I do with Samus. Her design is infinitely more interesting. I have mained her since Melee specifically because these aspects of her character have helped me enjoy playing as her. I laugh like an idiot sometimes when I'm playing her and it's great.

Samus has problems. And if we were talking about Metroid yeah I'd probably have more to say about the problems with her character and the way they frustrate me. But as far as Smash is concerned, I think the roster is actually preeeeetty dang good about appealing to women all things considered. One character with a design that doesn't appeal to one gender doesn't strike me as necessarily being a problem within the context of this particular series.
 
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Sucumbio

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I'd haphazardly label it an internet thing that tends to leak into multiplayer games. Trying to get rid of it is a seemingly hopeless task. My parents knew the internet had a problem with women, and as far as I can tell it's only gotten worse since well, the invention of the internet. Chauvinism is in fashion right now, y'know? I think the best we can do as individuals is put our best foot forward, be considerate and supportive of our female friends in the community and maybe address any bad habits we may have in terms of the language we use. Jokes relating to sexual assault and gendered slurs are both good things to cut out of your humor if you want to make women more comfortable.

Another thing that should probably be said about interacting with women is that a lot of us are conditioned by society to avoid confrontations compared to men. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but I am saying it's different. Girls may not say anything if you're bothering them, because for a lot of us it's just easier to just walk away and find something less frustrating to do with our time, or pretend not to be bothered so that we don't attract any additional unwanted attention. You may have noticed but any time a woman complains about gendered mistreatment there's a pretty much immediate backlash, even if they have a legitimate complaint. It's pretty scary confronting strangers and it's a huge pain in the butt to deal with. That's not going to change, but if you want to help you can increase the quality of communication by simply asking if someone is comfortable with what's currently going on or being said, especially if it's sketchy or negative.

Little things like that can't make the problem go away, but they can reduce the severity of the problem. And they also double as being a good friend. For me as a girl myself all of this just falls under "Treat others the way you'd like to be treated."
Awesome response!

As I've learned recently, it's not even just an Internet thing. It's a cultural issue that spans so many platforms of interaction that short of going to another country to verify, I'd have to say it's a global issue. Maybe... maybe the United States is "worse." Maybe. Men and boys alike seem to fall trap to their inability to control their mouths, especially when in a group mentality.

As researched in this article: "A natural desire to be part of the 'in crowd' could damage our ability to make the right decisions, a new study has shown. Research has shown that individuals have evolved to be overly influenced by their neighbors, rather than rely on their own instinct. As a result, groups become less responsive to changes in their natural environment."

Honestly this goes way back. Think back to the time in 2nd grade when girls were gross. Individually, no, -a- girl was for some unknown reason to -a- boy kinda ... mesmerizing. But woe betide them if it got out. The relentless onslaught begins and doesn't end until that poor child has all but carved "I HATE GIRLS" into his forehead. And yet, just wait 3 or 4 years, and now all the hormones in everyone tell them "wait, we were wrong."

It's a fine line to walk. Do you shower everyone with nothing but respect and courteousness? Do you wear a sign around your neck that says "yeah hit on me" or "don't hit on me?" ... Tricky. Reading signals has gotten harder because people have gotten less apt at one-on-one communication. If you're not online, which is the ultimate group forum, then you're out in public, say at a tournament, which is still a giant group setting. No matter what, you're going to be forced to deal with group mentalities. And there's the rub. In a group, you gotta do what the group does.

I said I recently learned something. What I learned is a bit personal, but I think this thread could use this bit of... advice.

Don't assume that your comments are appropriate just because no one's ever said anything to you about it before.

As for in-game sexism problems, honestly, I don't think there is any.
This was an interesting read as well. I think the key term is Fanservice. Just thinking of what that word means it kind of demonstrates both the issue and the status quo. Fans, -males-, are served. I remember going ape over FFX-2 cause it was just screen after screen, sound byte after sound byte of sexy-time bs instead of, I dunno, a GAME. I wasn't disappointed. But I was also older, way past adolescence, and so it to me was just silly. But thinking back, had I had that game when I was 13? Ha!

It so happens that Samus is one of my wife's favorite video game icons, because she's "hot" (yes, my wife is into women too), but because she kicks "so much ass." Her all time favorite is Jill Valentine, for similar reasons. So to gamers, men and women alike, these two qualities seem to be important. Attractive, and Powerful. Eh, my favorite character is probably Alucard, cause reasons. But peach, well I like peach cause she's cute. Especially during that winking taunt she does, un-huh! and stuff... yeah.
 

Arle Nadja

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As I've learned recently, it's not even just an Internet thing. It's a cultural issue that spans so many platforms of interaction that short of going to another country to verify, I'd have to say it's a global issue. Maybe... maybe the United States is "worse." Maybe. Men and boys alike seem to fall trap to their inability to control their mouths, especially when in a group mentality.
You're probably right. While anonymity plus an audience (the internet) generally makes these things significantly worse, their roots are almost certainly in the real world. I know I grew up dealing with some pretty extreme misogyny around me. From gendered bullying to more physical bullying. I do think that the transition from real life --> the internet --> back to real life can exacerbate things though, which I think is worthy of consideration when it comes to the Smash Community in particular. A lot of our community identity comes from what happens outside tournaments, and I think maybe we can influence the attitude at tournaments by moderating ourselves online.

I've done a little bit of research on gender equality abroad. The united states is... okay. When it comes to gender equality and LGBT rights there are much better countries and there are much worse countries. I want to say we're a 6 out of 10? Something like that. Certainly we have things to be thankful for, but other countries have proven we can do better. Off the top of my head, the netherlands strikes me as an example of a country with a much better track record on gender equality. Not to say that they don't have their own problems, but in that specific area they seem to have us beat.

It's a fine line to walk. Do you shower everyone with nothing but respect and courteousness? Do you wear a sign around your neck that says "yeah hit on me" or "don't hit on me?" ... Tricky. Reading signals has gotten harder because people have gotten less apt at one-on-one communication.
I think the simplest I could put the way I deal with that question is that I err on the side of caution. You could call it being professional, or giving people the benefit of the doubt. To re-use some examples I used in my previous post--Personally, I've been on the receiving end of so many gendered slurs that I just... can't talk to other women like that. Even if I loathe them as people, it just makes me hate myself for resorting to that. So I just find other ways to communicate my frustration or discomfort with them if they're being ...terrible. Or I just leave them alone!

As for flirting and hitting on, yeah, that can be a little tricky sometimes. I think there are two golden rules to follow on that topic.

1) Be respectful when telling someone or hinting to someone that something about them is attractive.
If you hit on someone but you do it in a manner that's pretty tame and respectful and it turns out they don't like that type of attention, it's not a very big deal. You can back off and the damage done will be minimal. It's okay to make small mistakes like that. Most girls aren't looking for a reason to be upset. Personally, I enjoy this type of flirting. It helps me relax because it tells me the other person is being thoughtful and in a way, reassures me I can trust them.

When I'm talking to other girls, I don't feel scared about complimenting their clothes or their hair or hell, dorking it up about how hilarious Princess Peach is because I know that at worst, they'll think I'm a little weird (or gay) neither of which is even innacruate, let alone a big deal. But because I follow Rule 2, it's unlikely to escalate to something that hurts anyone.

2) Don't be aggressive.
Simply put, be willing to let the flirting / hitting on go if the person you're talking to is avoiding the topic or communicates they don't like it. A lot of people would call this 'taking a hint', but honestly, you don't need to be able to recognize a hint. If the person you're talking to isn't engaging the flirting, just find something else to talk about! If you're not actually sure they were uncomfortable, you can try again later!

You can also ask. Don't ask before you've even tried because that's off-putting and don't ask right after you finish flirting with someone because if they are in fact uncomfortable that could easily come off as confrontational and escalate. But if you ask the next day if a girl was comfortable with something you said yesterday, I don't think most girls are going to take offense to that provided of course that it isn't asked in a confrontational manner.

This was an interesting read as well. I think the key term is Fanservice. Just thinking of what that word means it kind of demonstrates both the issue and the status quo. Fans, -males-, are served. I remember going ape over FFX-2 cause it was just screen after screen, sound byte after sound byte of sexy-time bs instead of, I dunno, a GAME. I wasn't disappointed. But I was also older, way past adolescence, and so it to me was just silly. But thinking back, had I had that game when I was 13? Ha!

It so happens that Samus is one of my wife's favorite video game icons, because she's "hot" (yes, my wife is into women too), but because she kicks "so much ***." Her all time favorite is Jill Valentine, for similar reasons. So to gamers, men and women alike, these two qualities seem to be important. Attractive, and Powerful. Eh, my favorite character is probably Alucard, cause reasons. But peach, well I like peach cause she's cute. Especially during that winking taunt she does, un-huh! and stuff... yeah.
There's a pretty big spectrum on what people like. Some people are really just looking for an avatar to play a game with. How well the character is written doesn't matter so much to them, and y'know--that's a valid way to enjoy games. Gordon Freeman is the prototypical example of a character that really isn't written particularly well on his own (or at all), but is well loved based on how the world around him defines him. I feel like that's been preached to heaven and back though. On the contrary, I often have to deal with a lot of backlash when I preach the virtues of good storytelling and how important that is for me to enjoy a video game. And that's unfortunate, because it does greatly impact my enjoyment of characters like say Samus and there's a very vocal part of the metroid fanbase that really doesn't want to see her get turned into a more human character. But uh--I suppose you can't please everyone.

Boy am I excited for the new Adventure mode in Ultimate. I'll probably enjoy the game a lot more than Smash 4 based on that alone.

Now, back to fanservice though. You pointed out something I was tempted to say in my last post and left out. A big part of the reason fanservice is often considered a problem is simply that it has a sort of bad reputation for "accidentally" ostracizing one gender in the process of appealing to the other. Compare to say, Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon is a well known anime with fanservice in it. Namely, the transformation sequences and those incredibly cute outfits the Sailor Scouts wear. But what makes that different from say, Zero Suit Samus, is that those outfits resonated with women--not just men. The "not technically naked" bodysuit look is never going to come into fashion for women, but it's entirely possible to please both crowds!

And when you do that, fanservice really isn't a problem! I think Smash effectively does that simply by having so many character choices. Thankfully, I think game companies have become more aware of this these days, and since appealing to everyone is more profitable than appealing to one gender (If not somewhat harder depending on the developers) I think we're seeing a more inclusive gaming environment in general.

Smash certainly has a decent amount of girls on its roster these days~!
 
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Sucumbio

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I've done a little bit of research on gender equality abroad. The united states is... okay. When it comes to gender equality and LGBT rights there are much better countries and there are much worse countries. I want to say we're a 6 out of 10? Something like that. Certainly we have things to be thankful for, but other countries have proven we can do better. Off the top of my head, the netherlands strikes me as an example of a country with a much better track record on gender equality. Not to say that they don't have their own problems, but in that specific area they seem to have us beat.
That's interesting. See, as a professional male, I've had the misfortune of being the victim of a work culture that encourages a sort of disconnect between gender and role that's frankly impossible to achieve without chemical neuter, lol.

"You can't be a real man if you work here."

The translation is of course you can't be sexist, can't flirt with your employees, can't yell at your employees, can't do anything that would be construed or interpreted the wrong way. Can't comment on attire. Can't comment.

And yet, a woman, be they your superior, or subordinate, can. Why? "Because men can take it."

This divide - this hypocritical landscape - while making no sense becomes an essential job skill! And it shouldn't. Men and women want equal treatment, but men are expected to bear a specific burden. This is where MRAs seem to draw strength although obviously they steer WAY wrong by demanding that women subject themselves to truly inappropriate behavior because "it's owed to them." I get a real kick out of some of these dudes, who think they have some God-given right to a woman's body simply by virtue of being male. Ridiculous.

But anyway, I bring this up because it illustrates just how difficult it's become for men and women to behave themselves on the job and to a lesser extent, in communities in general such as our own FGC with smash. I would like to think that SmashBoards is a safe place for everyone young, old, male, female, etc. I'd like to think that we're better than some other communities who tolerate hate where we do not. But these questions wouldn't exist if it weren't for the sad truth that gender issues are at a tipping point. MeToo movement, MRA movement, politics in general, lol... it's awash with this shadow... I think Trump said it best, ironically.

It's a very scary time for young men in America

What's truly difficult is assimilating younger persons' sense of humor as my own. What I find funny in other words, doesn't always translate as humor and instead is taken as insult. This leads to me backtracking after it's too late...

I often have to deal with a lot of backlash when I preach the virtues of good storytelling and how important that is for me to enjoy a video game.
Really! That's interesting. I suppose there's reasons for this trend, but for me it's more of a genre thing. Some genres just naturally demand a strong story element where others do not.

Boy am I excited for the new Adventure mode in Ultimate. I'll probably enjoy the game a lot more than Smash 4 based on that alone.
Me too. I'm not sure how the whole Spirits thing will play out in the long run, but it's certainly interesting.

Now, back to fanservice though. You pointed out something I was tempted to say in my last post and left out. A big part of the reason fanservice is often considered a problem is simply that it has a sort of bad reputation for "accidentally" ostracizing one gender in the process of appealing to the other. Compare to say, Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon is a well known anime with fanservice in it. Namely, the transformation sequences and those incredibly cute outfits the Sailor Scouts wear. But what makes that different from say, Zero Suit Samus, is that those outfits resonated with women--not just men. The "not technically naked" bodysuit look is never going to come into fashion for women, but it's entirely possible to please both crowds!

And when you do that, fanservice really isn't a problem! I think Smash effectively does that simply by having so many character choices. Thankfully, I think game companies have become more aware of this these days, and since appealing to everyone is more profitable than appealing to one gender (If not somewhat harder depending on the developers) I think we're seeing a more inclusive gaming environment in general.

Smash certainly has a decent amount of girls on its roster these days~!
I agree, here. I think Smash is definitely more benign than say, Soul Caliber. I remember when 4 dropped all of us couldn't stop laughing at Taki's giant bazookas flopping and bouncing every time she moved, lol. Just the thought of it right now makes me cringe hahaha. Ah well. Objectifying requires 2 parties, the one with desire and the object of that desire. If I were making a game, would my female protagonist be "sexy?" I dunno... it would depend on whether or not that facet was important somehow to the game. Just thinking along this line, why did I pick the particular avatar I did? Was it because I find that particular pose attractive? Yeah, I'll admit, FEH is not only full of "fan service" but it's a favorite game series of mine, so I guess you can label me a sucker for the very attractively drawn Azura, lol. But as for the pose itself, well I was feeling vulnerable at the time I chose it, so it made sense. And, I guess, it still does!
 

XDaDePsak

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In some cultures, not covering your face or ankles is considered "too sexy".

Have you considered the possibility that treating "female immodesty" as some sort of social concern or ailment is only contributing to the objectification of women and the obsessive control of their sexuality?
 
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Sucumbio

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In some cultures, not covering your face or ankles is considered "too sexy".

Have you considered the possibility that treating "female immodesty" as some sort of social concern or ailment is only contributing to the objectification of women and the obsessive control of their sexuality?
Definitely. As I understand some Islamic traditionalists view women as brides either to physical men or if still unmarried then to God and such must be properly preserved in garments that protect them from improper gazes. Only amongst family members is it okay to be "uncovered" as the tradition focuses on being in public or around strangers. Ironically many nations have now outlawed the full body covering due to various reasons not the least of which is because they allow for concealment of weapons or explosives.
 

Daedulus

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Smash and Japanese culture is a really weird case, as somebody who studies culture and sociological effects it has on the mind, I fully say that Zero Suit Samus, Peach and so many others are made for the country it was made in. Traditionally Japanese women do not really play video games. It has roots in some historic and farming and mountainous lifestyle they live, but I won't get into that. Men in Asia typically like women that can do "the work of the man" but also are sexually interesting.(I have taken courses in this, I know what I'm talking about.) Samus is a prime example of this archetype. Peach on the other hand is a damsel in distress, common stuff. She wasn't supposed to be anything specific, just a princess. Ya, she likes pink and wheres a dress and can't handle her own issues(in the main games;)), but, considering that in japan, Pink often the colour of princess royalty and Girls Day and that she's basically what the Japanese think an "AMERICAN PRINCESS" is.... depending on what you believe... she's pretty good for a gender stereotype.
 

dahuterschuter

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Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits have to show so much skin that she could easily be a stand in for a waitress at the more famously sexist "resuaunt" that I will not name as I think it's name is too sexist/sexually charged to be posted here.
Samus wears:
>full body power armor
>a jumpsuit that covers all her skin but for her face and neck
>a pair of sporty shorts and tanktop, similar to what one sees female athletes like runners or MMA fighters wear for airy and cool exercising clothing

One might infer that Samus' one singular outfit that shows amount of body skin in the form of mid-drift, thighs, arms, and shoulders might serve the purpose of giving her athletic abilities and acrobatics unrestrictive clothing, kind of like real female athletes.

This is basically like having Captain Falcon, little mac, and Link wearing a speedo, it's not comfortable for them, but it's still what they would have to deal with being thought of every time mentioned their name.
Shulk has a speedo costume.

Little Mac wears shorts that reveal as much of his legs as Samus' sport shorts.

Captain Falcon wears a skintight suit similar to Samus' jumpsuit.

Young Link seems to wear no pants at all.

I'm not sure what is sexist here.
 
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Shulk has a speedo costume.

Little Mac wears shorts that reveal as much of his legs as Samus' sport shorts.

Captain Falcon wears a skintight suit similar to Samus' jumpsuit.

Young Link seems to wear no pants at all.

I'm not sure what is sexist here.
The "well these men also show skin so it isn't sexism" is incredibly silly because you're either saying "it's okay for characters to be sexualized as long as there's sexualization in both genders" or just missing the point of what sexualization actually entails and false equivalency.
None of the characters you listed are being sexualized, none of them are designed with a "female gaze" in mind. Captain Falcon is a muscular manly dude who plays into male power fantasy, Little Mac does the same though not to the same extent. Shulk's speedo is supposed to be comedic rather than fanservicey and I'm not even gonna bother with Young Link unless you really wanna go there which is gonna be a whole other can of worms.
Meanwhile, Zero Suit Samus? Yeah, no way you can argue against the fact Zero Suit is clearly intended for male gaze. Samus taking out her power suit has been used as a reward ever since the first Metroid game, it's literally used as an incentive for male players. It's not the amount of skin shown but rather how the design is presented.

I can't speak for women and what they consider a "female power fantasy", though while I can assure you that it's not something completely agreed on, much like how not all men want to be muscular manly dudes, I am also pretty sure it's no women's power fantasy to be stripped away of her powers(which is exactly what happens when the Zero Suit is first introduced in Zero Mission) and be put in a more vulnerable position(which is, again, exactly what happens to Samus as she's unable to directly confront enemies during that segment).

Though since I know comics are more intuitive
 

dahuterschuter

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The "well these men also show skin so it isn't sexism" is incredibly silly
Why yes, it's almost like the point was to show that showing skin or body form is not actually sexist or sexualizing.
you're either saying "it's okay for characters to be sexualized
It is okay for characters to be sexually appealing, because human beings are sexual.
None of the characters you listed are being sexualized
That's rather the point, none of those characters INCLUDING SAMUS are being any more sexualized than the other.
Captain Falcon is a muscular manly dude who plays into male power fantasy
If you hadn't noticed, the male power fantasy is a common female sexual fantasy. In fact each one of those characters appeals to different female tastes in male bodies. If you're going to try to argue that women aren't actually attracted to men who have sculpted physiques then you're not even close enough to the realm of reality to be reasoned with. Furthermore male power is female sexual arousal, so try not to pretend like they're mutually exclusive instead of directly linked. Scientifically speaking, power is possibly the ultimate female aphrodisiac.
Meanwhile, Zero Suit Samus? Yeah, no way you can argue against the fact Zero Suit is clearly intended for male gaze. Samus taking out her power suit has been used as a reward ever since the first Metroid game, it's literally used as an incentive for male players. It's not the amount of skin shown but rather how the design is presented.
First you would need to demonstrate why a fictional character designed for a male audience being made to look appealing to a male audience is somehow a bad thing, good luck with that. Second You'll need to demonstrate somehow that Samus' outfits and design aren't just a physically fit woman in freeing athletic attire, a point which you've largely ignored in my post, likely because you know it's correct.

I can't speak for women and what they consider a "female power fantasy", though while I can assure you that it's not something completely agreed on, much like how not all men want to be muscular manly dudes, I am also pretty sure it's no women's power fantasy to be stripped away of her powers(which is exactly what happens when the Zero Suit is first introduced in Zero Mission) and be put in a more vulnerable position(which is, again, exactly what happens to Samus as she's unable to directly confront enemies during that segment).
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Samus is supposed to be some kind of female power fantasy. Samus has been a male power fantasy since her very first game, in which the player gets to use aggression and weapons to navigate threats. And Metroid is literally an entire series about isolation and vulnerability. Much like how Metal Gear Solid is a game about not directly confronting your enemies, yet Snake is still a male character men would find appealing to roleplay as.

Not that "power fantasy" is at all relevant, but just so you know.

Though since I know comics are more intuitive
I've seen this ridiculous strawman comic before but I'm glad I can have this opportunity to dismantle it again. It's laughable when "artists" use their comics to do nothing but write a blog post and for some reason put it into art. In panel one we get our big caricaturized strawman, to which the artist tells to google "false equivalencies" as if that's an argument. It's not, and the equivalancy is not false. The sexualization is in the eye of the reader, much like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The shrill harpy then asserts that muscular men are not what she finds attractive, and therefor they are not sexual in nature, thereby destroying her own argument by asserting that what is and isn't sexualized must be subjective. Well done. Two panels in and she already defeats er own argument by acknowledging the subjectivity of sexual appeal.

The remainder of the comic may as well not exist. The only point she makes by drawing twink Batman is what she herself finds sexually appealing.

No, Zero Suit Samus is not overly sexual in nature and not any more sexual than the male characters in the game. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with putting sexually appealing characters in a game. Finally, it's impossible to put physically fit characters into games without them being sexual because human beings find physical fitness attractive in general.
 

Slugma128

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People here still dont understand the difference between sexy and sexism. Or their definition of "sexism" has been so broaden by feminists it basically means anything that is sexy is sexism. It is really getting ridicolous.

It is all about the definition and interpretation, and who takes control of those.
 

Erimir

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People also seem to think that Captain Falcon having skintight pants makes it equivalent to Zero Suit Samus...

But this is ignoring that there are:

44 male characters
8 gender-varying characters (WFT, Villager, Miis, etc.)
1 featuring both genders in all variants (Ice Climbers)
12 female characters
(I excluded Pokemon and Duck Hunt)

So having ZSS and Bayonetta be very sexualized makes a higher percentage. I'd argue that there are elements of sexualization to Palutena (that poledancing taunt) as well, but it is more minor.

But I wouldn't really argue that Captain Falcon or Snake are really that sexualized in general, but especially not given the way that their butts have been flattened/toned down in this game. Little Mac isn't sexualized either. Muscles are a power fantasy, not intended to make the characters sexy. Little Mac is wearing a boxer's outfit and no special attention is given to his sexual appeal nor are there design elements that clearly only serve that purposes (cf. ZSS wearing high heels, which make no sense from any perspective other than to make her wear sexier clothing). I think that Shulk's swimsuit outfit is meant as more humorous than sexualized, but there's a far better case for that than the idea that Captain Falcon having big biceps means he's being sexualized!

But even if we count Falcon, Snake and Little Mac as sexualized, since there are so many more male characters, the percentage of sexualized male characters/costumes is significantly lower. And IMO there's no male character that even approaches how sexualized ZSS is, much less Bayonetta.

But I will say that Smash sexualizes its female characters less than many other series, particularly fighting series.
 
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Slugma128

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People also seem to think that Captain Falcon having skintight pants makes it equivalent to Zero Suit Samus...

But this is ignoring that there are:

44 male characters
8 gender-varying characters (WFT, Villager, Miis, etc.)
1 featuring both genders in all variants (Ice Climbers)
12 female characters
(I excluded Pokemon and Duck Hunt)

So having ZSS and Bayonetta be very sexualized makes a higher percentage. I'd argue that there are elements of sexualization to Palutena (that poledancing taunt) as well, but it is more minor.

But I wouldn't really argue that Captain Falcon or Snake are really that sexualized in general, but especially not given the way that their butts have been flattened/toned down in this game. Little Mac isn't sexualized either. Muscles are a power fantasy, not intended to make the characters sexy. Little Mac is wearing a boxer's outfit and no special attention is given to his sexual appeal nor are there design elements that clearly only serve that purposes (cf. ZSS wearing high heels, which make no sense from any perspective other than to make her wear sexier clothing). I think that Shulk's swimsuit outfit is meant as more humorous than sexualized, but there's a far better case for that than the idea that Captain Falcon having big biceps means he's being sexualized!

But even if we count Falcon, Snake and Little Mac as sexualized, since there are so many more male characters, the percentage of sexualized male characters/costumes is significantly lower. And IMO there's no male character that even approaches how sexualized ZSS is, much less Bayonetta.

But I will say that Smash sexualizes its female characters less than many other series, particularly fighting series.
First of all, sexualization is not the same as sexism. Not even close.

Second, of course women find muscles sexy. Who told you otherwise? The whole "power fantasy" narrative is old and outdated, it was used by feminists ten years ago because they were mad fictional women looked better than they did. And instead of admitting that men do not care about sexualized men in games, they started to label sexualized men as "power fantasies" for men. They just made that one up.

That being said, Captain Falcon is more of a joke character, just like Luigi. Snake and that Xenoblade guy are definitely sexualized, though. But again, men do not become jealous like women do, so you do not hear men complain about fictional men who represents an "impossible" attractive standard.
 

FirestormNeos

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First of all, sexualization is not the same as sexism. Not even close.
FTFY. This is only point that needs to be made, and everything else in your post is just a distraction from it. especially that snide little "it was used by feminists ten years ago because they were mad fictional women looked better then they did" quip that was smuggled into your comment.

I've seen literally everyone and their grandma on this thread go back and forth on the "wHaT aBoUt CaPtAiN fAlCoN?" and "wHaT aBoUt ShUlK?" (heck, even I've been guilty of contributing to that one a couple pages back) and the whole itinerary of male characters in Super Smash Bros that straight women and/or gay men have ever shown even the slightest interest in.

Well guess what? As this one part of your post that I've quoted has pointed out, the entire point of arguing over whether the Male Character VWXYZ is sexualized or not is rendered completely and utterly moot. This thread is called "Sexism in Smash Bros and Character Design," Not "Sexualization in Smash Bros and Character Design".

Ugh, this is why I unsubbed from this thread! it drives me insane with the constant repetition of the same **** that's already been done to death in a thousand other forums and conversations!
 

Erimir

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To be honest, the idea that sexualization and sexism are distinct and unrelated is patent BS.

Now, sexualization is not inherently sexist. Sexual and sensual art need not demean women or perpetuate sexist tropes, etc. but sexualization is often an element in art and media that do those things.

The patterns in how men and women are sexualized (or not) can also reflect sexist patterns in society. Female characters are sexualized in video games far more frequently than male characters and to a greater degree. Characters like Bayonetta have design features that are clearly intended to increase the amount of skin showing for the purpose of titillation even when it makes no sense. The number of female warriors who run around wearing armor on their shoulders and legs but for some reason also covering their crotch and thighs with only a thong, despite going into sword or gun fights, far outstrips male characters running around with armor plating most places but covering their crotch with just a banana hammock. A woman who is supposedly a medieval warrior should be dressed like Brienne of Tarth on Game of Thrones. She wears armor that is intended to protect her from being stabbed or slashed, and it looks the way it ought to for that purpose. Whining that you can be sexy and still be strong is dumb in that context. Brienne is a knight, knights wear armor that protects the body. So no, she really can't be sexy and be a proper knight, except when she's out of her armor. And if she's going to swing a broadsword, she needs muscles. A woman like that can be sexy, depending on what you find sexy, but she can't be a big breasted waif in a thong unless you're throwing realism out the window.

That's not to say that female video game characters are universally treated that way, by any means! Lucina's design is not sexualized at all - sure, she's pretty, but her clothing makes sense and she does not randomly stick her butt out in sexual poses during battle or the like.

Now it is true that sexism and sexualization are not the same thing. Congratulations on knowing that they're not synonyms. That doesn't mean they're unrelated. What message does it send to players when they see female characters scantily-clad for no reason that makes sense from the perspective of story, practicality or sometimes even physics (and frequently with ridiculously large breasts), while male characters are far more likely to be dressed in a way that does make sense?

I think a natural message to take from that is that this game is made for men (or perhaps even more so teenage boys). Female characters are to titillate the player, who is assumed to be male, male characters are to identify with. A female player is probably not fantasizing about wearing a thong into battle. Then people will justify this by saying that women and girls are just less interested, so they have to cater to their audience. But part of the reason that girls reject video games as being for boys is the way the games often send the message that the player is assumed to be male (and straight).

Since this thread is about sexism in character design, sexualization is a natural place to go to. But one could easily critique the design of (to pick the most obvious choice) Princess Peach who is an adult woman who acts extremely girly and various parts of her design reflect either weaponized girliness (she attacks with hearts and rainbows and parasols!) or even being a damsel (she cowers while Toad protects her). That isn't about sexualization but is still about character design. But sexualization is still a major issue in character design.
 
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FirestormNeos

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To be honest, the idea that sexualization and sexism are distinct and unrelated is patent BS.

Now, sexualization is not inherently sexist. Sexual and sensual art need not demean women or perpetuate sexist tropes, etc. but sexualization is often an element in art and media that do those things.
Finally! Now we're getting somewhere!

The patterns in how men and women are sexualized (or not) can also reflect sexist patterns in society. Female characters are sexualized in video games far more frequently than male characters and to a greater degree. Characters like Bayonetta have design features that are clearly intended to increase the amount of skin showing for the purpose of titillation even when it makes no sense. The number of female warriors who run around wearing armor on their shoulders and legs but for some reason also covering their crotch and thighs with only a thong, despite going into sword or gun fights, far outstrips male characters running around with armor plating most places but covering their crotch with just a banana hammock. A woman who is supposedly a medieval warrior should be dressed like Brienne of Tarth on Game of Thrones. She wears armor that is intended to protect her from being stabbed or slashed, and it looks the way it ought to for that purpose. Whining that you can be sexy and still be strong is dumb in that context. Brienne is a knight, knights wear armor that protects the body. So no, she really can't be sexy and be a proper knight, except when she's out of her armor. And if she's going to swing a broadsword, she needs muscles. A woman like that can be sexy, depending on what you find sexy, but she can't be a big breasted waif in a thong unless you're throwing realism out the window.
So are you trying to say that the problem is that people are not designing armor properly for the genre (ie designing schlocky, sexualized armor for realistic fantasy settings, specifically), or that one of the genres shouldn't exist at all to the extent that it does (ie schlocky fantasy shouldn't be as prevelent as it is. all fantasy should strive to be more realistic)?

I just wish people were more willing to parse what exactly is needed more clearly and precisely.

That's not to say that female video game characters are universally treated that way, by any means! Lucina's design is not sexualized at all - sure, she's pretty, but her clothing makes sense and she does not randomly stick her butt out in sexual poses during battle or the like.
I really should probably play Fire Emblem: Awakening at some point... buuuuuuuut I'm kinda broke at the moment. :/

Now it is true that sexism and sexualization are not the same thing. That doesn't mean they're unrelated. What message does it send to players when they see female characters scantily-clad for no reason that makes sense from the perspective of story, practicality or sometimes even physics (and frequently with ridiculously large breasts), while male characters are far more likely to be dressed in a way that does make sense? I think a natural message to take from that is that this game is made for men (or perhaps even more so teenage boys). Female characters are to titillate the player, who is assumed to be male, male characters are to identify with. A female player is probably not fantasizing about wearing a thong into battle. Then people will justify this by saying that women and girls are just less interested, so they have to cater to their audience. But part of the reason that girls reject video games as being for boys is the way the games often send the message that the player is assumed to be male (and straight).
Okay. What solutions would you propose to someone wanting to change this paradigm without completely sacrificing sexualization?

Basically, is it possible to get more characters like Lucina and Hilde from SoulCalibur without getting less characters like, I dunno, Bayonetta? If so, how? If not, why?

Since this thread is about sexism in character design, sexualization is a natural place to go to. But one could easily critique the design of (to pick the most obvious choice) Princess Peach who is an adult woman who acts extremely girly and various parts of her design reflect either weaponized girliness (she attacks with hearts and rainbows and parasols!) or even being a damsel (she cowers while Toad protects her). That isn't about sexualization but is still about character design. But sexualization is still a major issue in character design.
Well, thanks for replying to my inquiry, at the very least. Glad to finally have a discussion about sexism/character design/sexualization on this thread that isn't just the same five talking points over and over again.
 
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Erimir

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So are you trying to say that the problem is that people are not designing armor properly for the genre (ie designing schlocky, sexualized armor for realistic fantasy settings, specifically), or that one of the genres shouldn't exist at all to the extent that it does (ie schlocky fantasy shouldn't be as prevelent as it is. all fantasy should strive to be more realistic)?

I just wish people were more willing to parse what exactly is needed more clearly and precisely.
Schlocky fantasy means fantasy about women barbarians with big breasts and bikini armor, or what? That's not exactly the same thing as realism or not. Female characters should be treated as full people, or as fully as male characters anyway, not just as eye candy. In my view.

As for whether it exists, I'm a gay guy, and if you want fantasy written to appeal to gay men in that "schlocky" sexualized sort of manner, you're gonna be mostly limited to fanfic or something.

Somehow I managed to get on just fine consuming sci-fi and fantasy that didn't treat male characters as eye candy.
I really should probably play Fire Emblem: Awakening at some point... buuuuuuuut I'm kinda broke at the moment. :/
I haven't played it. I was talking about her appearance in Smash Bros only. But I don't have any reason to think that's wrong about her in FE...
Okay. What solutions would you propose to someone wanting to change this paradigm without completely sacrificing sexualization?
Is sexualization a vital element of non-pornographic media? Like I was saying above, as a gay man I'm not very sympathetic to the idea that this is a necessary component of sci-fi or fantasy or action movies or whatever. I somehow manage to enjoy these things without male characters being sexualized in ways to appeal to me. I don't consider it an important component of the genre. Tbh it's hard for me to even imagine a game actually catering to gay men in that way without being some kind of indie game that's only going to be seen by gay men and women and that straight men will completely ignore, or just total porno schlock.

I think the most important thing is for female characters to be fully fleshed out and not for them to be designed first as "fan service" (which generally means "straight male fan service").
Basically, is it possible to get more characters like Lucina and Hilde from SoulCalibur without getting less characters like, I dunno, Bayonetta? If so, how? If not, why?
I don't even like Bayonetta, so asking me how to preserve her is probably not going to be productive.
 

FirestormNeos

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Now, sexualization is not inherently sexist. Sexual and sensual art need not demean women or perpetuate sexist tropes, etc.
The most important thing is for female characters to be fully fleshed out and not for them to be designed first as "fan service"
I feel these two statements I've quoted are both true, but if I'm understanding them correctly, are making contradictory points. I feel a need to make this statement as a result:

Either it is possible to make a female character sexualized in a way that isn't sexist (and it probably involves making them and any other female character someone makes fully fleshed out, among other things), or it is not possible and therefore sexualization might as well be synonomous with sexism because "it's impossible to make a female character look sexy without it being sexist, so why bother making a distinction without a difference?"

Either you tell me which one it is, or I will ask someone else who can give me a definitive answer.

...

See, this is what has frustrated me for the last 4-5 years. There's probably been thousands of discussions had about sexism, sexualization, character designs, etc. had by hundreds of thousands-- if not millions --of people. And yet of all the conversations I've seen and read, not ****ing one of them have been able to give me a straight answer on this.
 

Erimir

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The thing is that there aren't many real life people who are constantly sexual. But most people are sexual at least some of the time.

But in the context of a video game, a character's design being sexualized usually means... they're sexualized all the time. If your game has no reason for a woman to be in a sexual situation (like in Smash Bros, or in the Fire Emblem games as far as I know, etc.) then why should they be "sexy"? I don't hear you clamoring for more thongs for male characters. Is it some kind of problem that there aren't more male characters portrayed that way?

You know, I'd appreciate more gay content in my games, but while it was funny to point out Snake and Falcon's ample buttocks in previous games, it really isn't that important. I don't really need to admire Captain Falcon's butt, it would be a stupid-ass thing to get worked up over. (If I want to admire attractive male bodies, I have far better ways of doing that than playing video games.)

Also what does sexy mean here? Zero Suit Samus has no reason to be wearing heels (not that her rocket heels make physical sense, but at least rocket boots would be less ridiculous). Would she be unattractive if she were merely fit and pretty, rather than pretty, fit (but not too muscular), extra busty and wearing heels? Like, what is the reason I should be concerned that she can't be made sexier without it being sexist? Like, it's not enough that she's attractive, she needs to be designed in a way that clearly says "this character was made extra sexy for our male players in a way that shows we prioritized this over story and logic"?

Or maybe, like I said, my perspective is different partly because 1. basically no video games I play try to sexually titillate me in the first place and 2. I don't expect them to or feel disappointed when a male character's outfit isn't showing off their upper thighs or something. I'm failing to see what would be so bad about a world in which Bayonetta wasn't designed with the idea of showing her bare ass during fights. It's not sexy to me, it's just stupid. I already don't want to play her games partly because of how stupid I find that concept, and if I were a woman I might be even more put off by it. If you find that you're not getting enough boners because Bayonetta's ass isn't showing enough, you could just go look at pornographic fan art, or even just regular porn. I really don't get why some people are so upset by the idea of Bayonetta just keeping her ****ing clothes on because why the **** wouldn't she?

Like I don't really get why I should even care about this. Like, oh no, the female characters in your fighting games won't be sexy enough?

When I weigh that against making video games more welcoming to female players, I give literally zero ****s by comparison.
 

FalcoXP

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To be honest. I dont really have a problem with ZSS wearing shorts and a little t-shirt.

My concern is that the heels are too... weird, and im glad they made her boobs smaller, they looked so off.

The Smash 4 design was very sexualized and that's not how I imagine strong bounty hunter, doesnt fit in her context and personality, Samus design shold be like an amazon warrior (I dont know if this is the translation to english of "Mujer amazona").

Bayonetta otherwise, I dont have problem for her to be sexualized 'cause at the end of the day, it somewhat fits with her personality and attitude, she was mean to be like that.
 
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Erimir

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Well, that was about as helpful as a waterlogged stick of dynamite. :facepalm: **** this, I'm out.
Sorry?

What kind of sexualization is not sexist is going to depend on the context. What kind of game, how story heavy, does it seem like it was shoehorned in to give male players boners or does it make sense for the story they're telling (when Kratos stumbles upon a room of naked women who immediately want sex with him... it is not something that adds to the story. It is just to to titillate straight men), does it make sense for the character to be wearing a sexy outfit and adopting sexy poses, or is it something that in real life would be completely ridiculous? etc.

Fact is that in a fighting game, where the characters spend all of their time fighting... there is no reason for the female characters to be extra sexy (I mean, maybe you find Ronda Rousey sexy, but she doesn't do things in the ring to be sexy, because she's having an actual fight, not mudwrestling to titillate men or something).

So in a fighting game, there aren't going to be many reasons to have a sexualized character, so the large majority of the time it's just going to come off as a message of "this game is for straight guys and we've put sexy women in for their benefit".

Sexualization doesn't have to be built into a character's design tho. Bayonetta is designed (the concept of her magical hair clothes that have to be removed for her to use certain attacks) to be sexy. There is no logical reason you would design her that way other than because you wanted opportunities to have her be naked during fights. Nobody thinks that Bayonetta would have this issue and not conclude "maybe I'll wear some real clothes and not rely purely on magical clothes given that I can't use my attacks and protect my body at the same time" (but even then, it seems silly that magical clothes that sit on your body and devastating magical attacks really require the same amount of magical power so she can't afford to keep her clothes on).

Now, could you have a storyline where Bayonetta encounters a man she's attracted to and is flirtatious and sexy with him? Sure, that would make sense. But since it's built into the very design of the character, how am I supposed to interpret the way Bayonetta is designed other than as a fap fantasy? A fap fantasy that only appeals to a certain kind of straight male, and thus sends the message that this game is for straight males first and foremost, and they're not very concerned with appealing to women, etc.

And I feel like so much of this argument is just beating around the bush to avoid admitting yes, it's a fap fantasy for straight males, instead trying to act like there's some deep or interesting or cool reason why she's designed in a way to make her constantly flash her naked body at the player. It's not deep.
 
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Captain Shades

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Or maybe, like I said, my perspective is different partly because 1. basically no video games I play try to sexually titillate me in the first place and 2. I don't expect them to or feel disappointed when a male character's outfit isn't showing off their upper thighs or something. I'm failing to see what would be so bad about a world in which Bayonetta wasn't designed with the idea of showing her bare *** during fights. It's not sexy to me, it's just stupid. I already don't want to play her games partly because of how stupid I find that concept, and if I were a woman I might be even more put off by it. If you find that you're not getting enough boners because Bayonetta's *** isn't showing enough, you could just go look at pornographic fan art, or even just regular porn. I really don't get why some people are so upset by the idea of Bayonetta just keeping her ****ing clothes on because why the **** wouldn't she?
I think you miss the point of Bayonetta. Bayonetta is an over confident A-hole who wants to flaunt everything just to prove she has it and get male gaze. Her whole personality is based around the fact that she doesn’t give a single F%@#. If I had to compare her, and to a male character to make this equal, Johnny Bravo would be the best example. Johnny constantly takes his shirt off at random times and flexes his pecs because he’s portraying a man who is completely over confidant and wants to be seen by many. Other male characters that exude this type of personality are Niles from FE Fates, who kisses his bows sexually while making sexual remarks to his hope to one day be gay lover Leo as his shirt is down enough to show the upper portion of his body. Bayonetta’s whole schtic also comes from the over confident and cocky personality of her “spiritual” predecessor Dante, who goes around with no shirt and acts like an @$$. Bayonetta’s whole character revolves around confidence, she’s tall, attractive, pretty much good at everything, and doesn’t have to care about anything. Being sexual is just a way to really show that archetype regardless of sex.

I would also like to point out that Bayonetta is from a hack-and-slash game, which is a genre based around extremes as style plays a huge part, so her personality is over exaggerated just like everything else.

I also feel that it is wrong to vilify Bayonetta as a symbol for sexism when she is clearly just expressing a personality. Many girls do identify with her, heck even Lady Gaga is apparently a huge fan, so this archetypes has a place. If you want examples, literally go to like any cosplay girl’s profile and they’ll talk about how they fell confident in the outfits or how it helps.

When it comes to sexuality in games, I feel it can be done if the character has a personality that fits it, and in cases like Smash with huge casts, just include more diversity. No matter how sexist you view a lack of clothes are, there are people who identify with those types of characters, so it’s wrong to remove them. In turn I would hope that there are other types surrounding that whether it be girly-girls like Peach, armored warriors like Samus, or characters like Lucina that way everyone can have a character.

* As a side note, I do not find Bayonetta that attractive, while I like the personality she is way to overboard for me, so I usually go for the Daisy and Lucina type. Confident but less sexualized.
 

Erimir

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I think you miss the point of Bayonetta. Bayonetta is an over confident A-hole who wants to flaunt everything just to prove she has it and get male gaze.
The fact that she wants to "get male gaze" is part of her character design, and it is a design choice made to justify making her getting naked while fighting and all that.

Maybe there is a defense of Bayonetta that would be convincing, but this isn't it. Bayonetta is not a person and does not have a personality independent from her outfits and abilities and story and game, they are a package that were designed together. You can't tell me about her personality like it is somehow independent of the issues I brought up about her design.
 
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Luigifan18

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The fact that she wants to "get male gaze" is part of her character design, and it is a design choice made to justify making her getting naked while fighting and all that.

Maybe there is a defense of Bayonetta that would be convincing, but this isn't it. Bayonetta is not a person and does not have a personality independent from her outfits and abilities and story and game, they are a package that were designed together. You can't tell me about her personality like it is somehow independent of the issues I brought up about her design.
Well, um, is anybody's personality truly independent of how they choose to dress themselves? That sounds like an aspect of personality to me.
 

Erimir

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Uniforms are forced on you.

But my point is that the sexualized outfit, abilities and behavior of Bayonetta can't be justified by her having a personality that was designed by the same person/people who gave her those other things.
 
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