Sexism in smash bros in general and character design:

[Over9000BPM]

I was talking more about her personality

Oh yeah that was totally awful.

 

[Bluekirby2]

I don't see how ZSS's design is sexist.

She wears heels. How many non-bad ***** fight in heels, let alone use them as a flipping weapon.

Wow a lot changes in 3-4 years, huh?

I no longer agree with this but I don't feel like explaining myself so I'll link a video that can explain what I'm trying to say much better (if you're willing to sit through a 21 minute video at least)

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Wow a lot changes in 3-4 years, huh?

I no longer agree with this but I don't feel like explaining myself so I'll link a video that can explain what I'm trying to say much better (if you're willing to sit through a 21 minute video at least)

Interesting analysis.

I think a lot of people agree on the 'sexy vs sexualized' thing. My interest in this thread was to know about sexism in tournaments/events, did any of you have ever witnessed or experienced sexism in tournaments/events?

 

[Uffe]

Don't tell me male characters don't get sexualized, either. Remember a while back when people were talking about Luigi's bulge, or more recently, Snake's nerfed butt?

 

[Erimir]

I understand your points and for the most part I really do agree. But let me make another point in regards to objectification in games.

Men are objectified too. Big hulking brutes of men with hues of brown and muscles of steel. Not very realistic huh? And the same goes for women with their flashy outfits and sexualized character design. And I personally don't see an issue with that, it is what it is and it is only human nature to enjoy these things.

Just going to say: being a hulking muscle man is a male power fantasy, primarily for straight men. And they are not typically portrayed in a way that emphasizes their sex appeal.

It's also an element of hero worship. Consider, for example, this cartoon of Donald Trump. Support him or not, his physique is nothing like this portrayal. Yet nothing about this is about sexualizing or objectifying Trump. It is about portraying him as powerful by showing him as muscular and manly, rather than the flabby overweight old man that he is.

That's not to say that there aren't people who are sexually attracted to men who look like Kratos. But if he is so "objectified" as you say, wouldn't the target audience for God of War be people who are sexually attracted to men? But I really don't think that straight women or gay men are the target audience for God of War. Kratos does not look like that primarily in order to titillate straight women or gay men.

Personally, I would say that hulking brutes are also probably not that sexually appealing to most women or gay men anyway. I know they don't appeal to me.

Sure, there might be some instances where male characters are meant to be sexually objectified. But on the whole, it is done with straight male audiences in mind far more often, and characters like Kratos are not counterexamples. Kratos is a male power fantasy.

It's telling that it's generally straight men who argue that men are objectified in games too. I'm a gay guy and I can tell you that I don't notice male characters being sexualized nearly as often as women. I'd think I'd notice. That's not to say it never happens, either, btw!

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

The way they changed her face was pretty much just as bad as the heels, she's pretty much a completely different character from Brawl. Which kinda makes sense, since Samus is a completely different character in Other M, which I guess her new design is based on. But I really wish we at least had the Brawl face back, even if she still had the heels.

 

[Bluekirby2]

Just going to say: being a hulking muscle man is a male power fantasy, primarily for straight men. And they are not typically portrayed in a way that emphasizes their sex appeal.

It's also an element of hero worship. Consider, for example, this cartoon of Donald Trump. Support him or not, his physique is nothing like this portrayal. Yet nothing about this is about sexualizing or objectifying Trump. It is about portraying him as powerful by showing him as muscular and manly, rather than the flabby overweight old man that he is.

That's not to say that there aren't people who are sexually attracted to men who look like Kratos. But if he is so "objectified" as you say, wouldn't the target audience for God of War be people who are sexually attracted to men? But I really don't think that straight women or gay men are the target audience for God of War. Kratos does not look like that primarily in order to titillate straight women or gay men.

Personally, I would say that hulking brutes are also probably not that sexually appealing to most women or gay men anyway. I know they don't appeal to me.

Sure, there might be some instances where male characters are meant to be sexually objectified. But on the whole, it is done with straight male audiences in mind far more often, and characters like Kratos are not counterexamples. Kratos is a male power fantasy.

It's telling that it's generally straight men who argue that men are objectified in games too. I'm a gay guy and I can tell you that I don't notice male characters being sexualized nearly as often as women. I'd think I'd notice. That's not to say it never happens, either, btw!

My thoughts exactly

Like if you're going to use a male character whose sexually objectified you'd have to dig real deep. The best example I could think of is Ash Crimson from King of Fighters.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I refrained from weighing in on this because I didn't want to partake in any necroposting, but since this thread isn't going away from the "most recent" I may as well throw in my two cents about this topic...

ahem...

sexualized female characters in fictional media are an oddball conversation for me because it's the only conversation in "HASH TAG LE MODERN INTERNET DISCOURSE XDDDDDDD" where I can still somewhat comprehend where both sides are coming from, as opposed to every other topic where I'm sitting here screaming "bull****, that's racist you ****ing know it!" to people who simply refuse to listen. Maybe it's because I'm just a selfish pervert, or maybe it's because it's the only one where innocent people's lives aren't at stake.

I am of the opinion that, if I were to wake up one day and find out that Zero Suit Samus has been redesigned for smash, only this time to be completely devoid of any sexuality whatsoever, but is still fun to play as and doesn't look like she crawled out of Nuremberg, I'd be completely fine with the change, because fanart of a character that is drawn in such a way that accentuates her... "appearance" does not cease to exist just because the official source of the character stops sexualizing her. Worst-case scenario, I've seen situations where a creator supposedly went out of their way to make a character look as "Gonk" as possible, and fanartists simply spit at the ground and ignored it. ****ing nobody who actually matters is asking for Zero Suit Samus to be "Gonk."

So where does that leave Zero Suit Samus? Well, in Ultimate, they adjusted her by cranking down the cup size (but not outright flat) and toning up her muscle a bit (but not giving her the physique she had in Super Metroid). Judging from the fact that this thread hasn't been locked for inactivity, however, it didn't seem to be enough. So my question to the board is: what do you think a "fully de-sexualized but not Gonk" zero suit samus should/would look like?

My thoughts exactly

Like if you're going to use a male character whose sexually objectified you'd have to dig real deep. The best example I could think of is Ash Crimson from King of Fighters.

Would you consider the mention of swimsuit shulk to be "digging deep"?

 

[Over9000BPM]

I refrained from weighing in on this because I didn't want to partake in any necroposting, but since this thread isn't going away from the "most recent" I may as well throw in my two cents about this topic...

ahem...

sexualized female characters in fictional media are an oddball conversation for me because it's the only conversation in "HASH TAG LE MODERN INTERNET DISCOURSE XDDDDDDD" where I can still somewhat comprehend where both sides are coming from, as opposed to every other topic where I'm sitting here screaming "bull****, that's racist you ****ing know it!" to people who simply refuse to listen. Maybe it's because I'm just a selfish pervert, or maybe it's because it's the only one where innocent people's lives aren't at stake.

I am of the opinion that, if I were to wake up one day and find out that Zero Suit Samus has been redesigned for smash, only this time to be completely devoid of any sexuality whatsoever, but is still fun to play as and doesn't look like she crawled out of Nuremberg, I'd be completely fine with the change, because fanart of a character that is drawn in such a way that accentuates her... "appearance" does not cease to exist just because the official source of the character stops sexualizing her. Worst-case scenario, I've seen situations where a creator supposedly went out of their way to make a character look as "Gonk" as possible, and fanartists simply spit at the ground and ignored it. ****ing nobody who actually matters is asking for Zero Suit Samus to be "Gonk."

So where does that leave Zero Suit Samus? Well, in Ultimate, they adjusted her by cranking down the cup size (but not outright flat) and toning up her muscle a bit (but not giving her the physique she had in Super Metroid). Judging from the fact that this thread hasn't been locked for inactivity, however, it didn't seem to be enough. So my question to the board is: what do you think a "fully de-sexualized but not Gonk" zero suit samus should/would look like?



Would you consider the mention of swimsuit shulk to be "digging deep"?

I respect people who like the new ZSS, and their reasoning. It’s just too sudden, too severe and just doesn’t... I can’t, I just can’t.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Let's suppose for a minute that these characters are in fact 100% sexualized on purpose. So what? These aren't real people, these aren't even actors playing characters, they're CG depictions of fictional characters. Nobody is harmed by it. We've got mountains of research on media and how it shapes people's actions, and it all points to no correlation between stereotypes/actions in media and real world consequences. Barring that, there's really nowhere you go other than "this personally offends me, change it!"

By all means, you don't have to find it appealing. But that doesn't mean you get to guilt trip artists into changing their works to appease your sensibilities. Sorry if I come off as a bit aggressive on this, that kind of thing just gets under my skin.

 

[Erimir]

Nobody is harmed by it. We've got mountains of research on media and how it shapes people's actions, and it all points to no correlation between stereotypes/actions in media and real world consequences.

And what would your citations be for that from the social science literature?

 

[NocturnalQuill]

And what would your citations be for that from the social science literature?

Trying to do some digging for links now. Every other instance of media being linked to attitudes and actions (satanic panic of the 90s and the violence panic of the 00s) has been thoroughly debunked, and I fail to see what makes sexist attitudes so different. Most of the research has been done on violence, since that was a hot button issue for a long time. So far all I've been able to find in regards to sexism is this study done in France that by its own admission doesn't even take the content of the games into question (but is more than happy to make sweeping generalizations about said games), or the cultural backgrounds of the participants. Sexism in the study was defined by only one criteria: a positive response to the statement "A woman is made mainly for making and raising children."

The burden of proof is on those claiming that video games cause sexist attitudes, and so far they have done an abysmal job of making their case. Video games don't convert people to Satanism, they don't cause violence, and I honestly, sincerely doubt they cause sexism. We have a new moral panic in video games every decade, and they all end the same.

 

[Bluekirby2]

Would you consider the mention of swimsuit shulk to be "digging deep"?

You kind of have a point there but I think should explain where I'm coming from: I think male sexualization in media is kind of half-hearted when compared to female sexualization. Sexualization is more than just how much clothes a character wears but things like position or camera angles or whatever.

I'm probably doing a terrible job explaining what I'm trying to say but basically

Spoiler: This isn't really male sexualization

i was going to post a picture of swimsuit chrom but i can't seem to get it to work just look it up

Spoiler: However THIS is a better example

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I wish more games had sexualized men that weren't half-assed (surely it can't be too hard to get women or gay men designers, right? right?), in the case of shirtless Shulk to me personally it seems like it's more for laughs. Now I'm not saying that female sexualization should seize to exist, I don't like it but for it to stop I realized would be impossible. Just give me some more hot guys or something, god damnit.

 

[SodiumChloride]

I hate it when people act like attractive woman aren't real

 

[Lonodel]

I understand the seriousness of this post and how the op might feel like some parties are under represented I know the smash community has to be one that looks to be the most immature outwards looking in this last evo being a perfect example. But I do appreciate the ZSS skins for what they represent in terms of gaming history. As a straight male I would love if we got spedo skins of captain falcon and little mac the shear hilarity that would ensue from skins like these makes it perfect. Another note I might add is that the two zss skins your referencing and the bust size of zss have nothing on what fire emblem has become lately Sam is as a character goes around in heavy armor for games on end she should be allowed to show a little skin gods know that armor has to get hot

 

[Erimir]

Trying to do some digging for links now. Every other instance of media being linked to attitudes and actions (satanic panic of the 90s and the violence panic of the 00s) has been thoroughly debunked, and I fail to see what makes sexist attitudes so different.

Sexism is attitudinal and violence is behavioral, for one. I also don't see much reason to assume that violent behavior in games would function the same.

For example, I could point out that the violence in the games is real in the game, but imaginary for the player. Viewing female characters as sexual objects is something that the player is doing, but often is not actually being done by the characters within the game (in many games, the appearance of the outfit of the character has no gameplay relevance). The gaze of the camera in the game often encourages the player to see the characters a certain way, for example, while the camera does not exist within the game world.

There are many other questions one could ask, of course. Not just whether these portrayals encourage sexism, but whether, for example, they discourage girls from playing these video games. Many seem to take it for granted that girls are not interested in these games, therefore it's ok that they cater to (straight) boys sexual preferences, even though it could easily be that it is catering to boys in this way that makes girls less interested.

all I've been able to find in regards to sexism is this study done in France that by its own admission doesn't even take the content of the games into question (but is more than happy to make sweeping generalizations about said games), or the cultural backgrounds of the participants.
[...]
The burden of proof is on those claiming that video games cause sexist attitudes

I'm sorry, but the post I was responding to would seem to carry a burden of proof.

You claimed that:
1. there was mountains of evidence
2. that evidence said there was no correlation between media portrayals and real world behavior, and nobody is harmed

Nobody is harmed by it. We've got mountains of research on media and how it shapes people's actions, and it all points to no correlation between stereotypes/actions in media and real world consequences.

Now you say that:

1. you can only find one study on this subject, and it is not a high-quality one
2. the study you cite does not support the claim you made

Furthermore, the claim you make about not taking into account the cultural backgrounds of participants is not exactly accurate. The study also examined the effect of religiosity on sexism, and found that it was a much stronger factor than video game consumption. That would seem to be an aspect of cultural background, no?

Anyway, it seems to me that you made a claim that you had no evidence for. At the time you made that post, it seems you did not know of any studies that supported your claim, yet you claimed there were mountains.

It also seems to me that, uh, you either didn't look very hard or are not aware of how to search for academic studies (you could also have, you know, looked at the studies cited in the study you did find). I don't feel like reading through all of these at the moment, but suffice it to say that the abstracts I examined from that search result did not support your claim that the evidence "all" points to no correlation. In fact, most of the ones that were looking at that suggested that there was a correlation between the sexist attitudes or behaviors they examined and video game consumption. I also can be reasonably sure you never read these studies and identified flaws in their data or reasoning given that, you know, you said you could only find the one study.

I would also say that there isn't any particular reason to think that video games should be less influential than other forms of media or things like sexist jokes (a correlation with both sexist beliefs and self-report of behaviors that could be considered sexual assault), so I would consider the literature on the effects of sexism in other media to be relevant to video games as well.

Saying the burden of proof is on those claiming that sexism in games has an effect on players' behavior does not give you license to claim that there are mountains of studies demonstrating the opposite. Skepticism is one thing, but that's just making **** up.

Sorry if I come off as a bit aggressive on this, that kind of thing just gets under my skin.

I guess I could say the same.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Sexism is attitudinal and violence is behavioral, for one. I also don't see much reason to assume that violent behavior in games would function the same.

For example, I could point out that the violence in the games is real in the game, but imaginary for the player. Viewing female characters as sexual objects is something that the player is doing, but often is not actually being done by the characters within the game (in many games, the appearance of the outfit of the character has no gameplay relevance). The gaze of the camera in the game often encourages the player to see the characters a certain way, for example, while the camera does not exist within the game world.

There are many other questions one could ask, of course. Not just whether these portrayals encourage sexism, but whether, for example, they discourage girls from playing these video games. Many seem to take it for granted that girls are not interested in these games, therefore it's ok that they cater to (straight) boys sexual preferences, even though it could easily be that it is catering to boys in this way that makes girls less interested.

It's true that sexism is an attitude, but you could say the same about desensitization to violent acts. There is a clear delineation between attitudes an actions. You say that the violence is imaginary, but is the rush derived from it? How much of a disconnect is there? I would argue that the sexualization of female characters is much the same. There is certainly a state of emotional arousal, but not in the same way that real life stimuli would provide. At least, in the case of anyone in a healthy mental state. There is definitely more research to be done in this area, but given the trends that we've seen with claims about video games and other belief systems and behaviors, I wouldn't hold my breath on video games causing sexism.

With respect to games being geared towards males at the exclusion of females, I don't think that sales figures support this. Even in games with no sort of sexualization, there is a clear gender divide in audience. Sports games lack heavy female sexualization to my knowledge (and feature sexually desirable men if anything) and yet they remain one of the most unpopular genres among women. Sales would suggest that gender splits are more along genre and game mechanics. Here is one set of data, although I have seen others with similar outcomes.


I'll concede that I should have been more clear about what I meat when I said "mountains of evidence". I was referring to the idea that video games influence real world behavior in general. The sexism angle is a new one, but the core idea is not. The violence in video game issue has been beaten to death over the last decade, and the general consensus among the scientific community is that there is no link. I've tried to look for additional studies on sexism in video games, but unfortunately a large portion of the research is locked behind paywalls including the one you linked regarding sexist jokes (taxpayer funded research, grumble grumble). Of the studies I can access, they are either horrendously conducted, or the data does not support the claim being made. I admit that I worded my post poorly, but I really do not appreciate your condescending tone on this point.

Still, none of this changes the fact that the claim "video games cause sexism" is the positive claim. If that is in fact what you're asserting, I would love to see some studies. The one I linked is the one that I see thrown around all the time, and it is completely invalid for the reasons I listed. The sexism claim is thrown around ad nauseum, and yet nobody ever provides any evidence outside of speculation. Paywalls make using search engines much more aggravating, but the fact that research I helped pay for with my taxes is locked behind a paywall is a whole other rant.

Another angle that I've considered since I've typed this up: suppose that video games do create negative attitudes. How far is too far? Suppose it turned out that video games did somehow cause sexist attitudes, but this never translated into real world behavior. Is that a problem? Do we risk going down a slippery slope by normalizing the idea that games mustn't influence certain kinds of attitudes, even unintentionally? Not really an argument there, just some musings.

 

[Magical Tuesday]

I'm glad there's a thread for this because I've noticed how venomous the community has been about Bayonetta. Considering how she's not nearly as bad as Brawl Meta Knight, Melee Fox, or Smash 64 Pikachu, I can't help but wonder if there would be this much concentrated outcry for a male character with the exact same kit.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I'm glad there's a thread for this because I've noticed how venomous the community has been about Bayonetta. Considering how she's not nearly as bad as Brawl Meta Knight, Melee Fox, or Smash 64 Pikachu, I can't help but wonder if there would be this much concentrated outcry for a male character with the exact same kit.

Nobody hates Bayonetta because of her gender, or even her character. People hate her because she is an over-centralizing force in the meta and because they are sick of seeing her in finals constantly. I don't know if you were around for Brawl, but Meta Knight was much, much more hated and controversial. Why on earth would people hate Bayonetta for being a conventionally attractive female character? If anything, it's gained her fans.

 

[Magical Tuesday]

Nobody hates Bayonetta because of her gender, or even her character. People hate her because she is an over-centralizing force in the meta and because they are sick of seeing her in finals constantly. I don't know if you were around for Brawl, but Meta Knight was much, much more hated and controversial. Why on earth would people hate Bayonetta for being a conventionally attractive female character? If anything, it's gained her fans.

Smash brings together people who identify as "hardcore gamers," including people from the Mario, Pokémon, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Star Fox, Fire Emblem, Metal Gear, and Xenoblade communities.

Do you think that an insignificant number of people in those demographics aren't affected at all by a sexy woman character telling them "If you need to learn how to talk to a lady, ask yer mum" and then beating them in all the tournaments? Does that really have nothing to do with it?

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Do you think that an insignificant number of people in those demographics aren't affected at all by a sexy woman character telling them "If you need to learn how to talk to a lady, ask yer mum" and then beating them in all the tournaments? Does that really have nothing to do with it?

Could you clarify that last part if you don't mind? I find your point of view quite interesting but i struggle to understand that last part.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Smash brings together people who identify as "hardcore gamers," including people from the Mario, Pokémon, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Star Fox, Fire Emblem, Metal Gear, and Xenoblade communities.

Do you think that an insignificant number of people in those demographics aren't affected at all by a sexy woman character telling them "If you need to learn how to talk to a lady, ask yer mum" and then beating them in all the tournaments? Does that really have nothing to do with it?

These are fictional characters. Bayonetta isn't a real person. People were hyped for her when she was added, and she was one of the top characters on the Smash ballot. The "toxicity" surrounding Bayonetta has nothing to do with her character, it has to do with her mechanics. So no, I don't think people hate Bayo because they are somehow insecure about a throwaway voice line and not because she dominates finals in tourneys, making them a chore to watch.

 

[Magical Tuesday]

These are fictional characters. Bayonetta isn't a real person. People were hyped for her when she was added, and she was one of the top characters on the Smash ballot. The "toxicity" surrounding Bayonetta has nothing to do with her character, it has to do with her mechanics. So no, I don't think people hate Bayo because they are somehow insecure about a throwaway voice line and not because she dominates finals in tourneys, making them a chore to watch.

You say that like it's only one way or the other. But you are right. Bayonetta is fictional, so it would be absolutely silly for real people to let conscious or unconscious gendered insecurities to sway how they behave.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Smash brings together people who identify as "hardcore gamers," including people from the Mario, Pokémon, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Star Fox, Fire Emblem, Metal Gear, and Xenoblade communities.

Do you think that an insignificant number of people in those demographics aren't affected at all by a sexy woman character telling them "If you need to learn how to talk to a lady, ask yer mum" and then beating them in all the tournaments? Does that really have nothing to do with it?

Seriously?

 

[Fell God]

It's like everyone wants to be outraged at something...

Edit: also LOL at thinking people hate Bayonetta for her gender or w/e lmao. I hate her because she is game breaking. Or do I hate men too because I hate Cloud for being almost equally as blatantly overpowered? Eh...probably shouldn't even humor you...

 

[NocturnalQuill]

You say that like it's only one way or the other. But you are right. Bayonetta is fictional, so it would be absolutely silly for real people to let conscious or unconscious gendered insecurities to sway how they behave.

The point is that Bayou could be an amorphous blob and people would hate her every bit as much as they do now. Virtually nobody hates the character of Bayonetta, they hate the collection of questionably balanced mechanics that is Bayonetta. If Bayonetta is reasonably balanced in Ultimate, I guarantee you that nobody will hate her. If someone is on the same level balance-wise as Bayonetta in Utlimate, I guarantee you that everyone will hate them every bit as much.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Nobody hates Bayonetta because of her gender, or even her character. People hate her because she is an over-centralizing force in the meta and because they are sick of seeing her in finals constantly.

I you're willing to read about it and confront your ideas to the data:
https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...own-of-smash-4s-most-controversial-character/

The conclusions to each sections are a good summary if you don't want to go through it all e.g. :

''5.2: The Data Argument
Outside of a few points we will discuss in the pro-ban section, the data as far as I interpret it is overwhelmingly suggestive that the character isn’t dominant, broken, or otherwise a danger to the metagame itself.

She’s prominent, but regions are about as likely to have to deal with Sheik, Diddy, or Cloud.

Her match-up spread is good even against high-tiers, but two years worth of match-up data suggests even when accounting for inflation & outliers that there are characters that are clearly effective against her being used by multiple players.

She’s prominent among top level players, but the panicked interpretation that she carries players or can easily slide into top 8s is wholly inaccurate.

Etc, etc. You’ve presumably read the article and understand all the points that have been made up to this point.''

 

[Over9000BPM]

Step 1: complain about sexism
Step 2: dribble misandrist conspiracy nonsense
step 3: fail to see the irony
step 4: ???
step 5: profit

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I you're willing to read about it and confront your ideas to the data:
https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...own-of-smash-4s-most-controversial-character/

The conclusions to each sections are a good summary if you don't want to go through it all e.g. :

''5.2: The Data Argument
Outside of a few points we will discuss in the pro-ban section, the data as far as I interpret it is overwhelmingly suggestive that the character isn’t dominant, broken, or otherwise a danger to the metagame itself.

She’s prominent, but regions are about as likely to have to deal with Sheik, Diddy, or Cloud.

Her match-up spread is good even against high-tiers, but two years worth of match-up data suggests even when accounting for inflation & outliers that there are characters that are clearly effective against her being used by multiple players.

She’s prominent among top level players, but the panicked interpretation that she carries players or can easily slide into top 8s is wholly inaccurate.

Etc, etc. You’ve presumably read the article and understand all the points that have been made up to this point.''

I'm not commenting on whether or not Bayonetta is broken. I'm commenting on the fact that she is perceived as broken. I fail to see how her looking like something straight men are biologically programmed to desire would somehow make people hate her. If the character's gender played any role at all, I would expect people to defend her because they want to play as their waifu.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Step 1: complain about sexism
Step 2: dribble misandrist conspiracy nonsense
step 3: fail to see the irony
step 4: ???
step 5: profit

I'm stuck at step 4 right now...

I'm not commenting on whether or not Bayonetta is broken. I'm commenting on the fact that she is perceived as broken.

People are reacting stongly to Bayo's presence, 'perceive her as broken' , for some reason (probably her playstyle like NocturnalQuill pointed out). I don't think there's any evidence to prove that this reason has something to do with her gender tho (i guess that what Over9000BPM meant by misandrist conspiracy nonsense).

Anyway... if you don't mind me asking again, is anybody ever witnessed direct, real-life sexism toward a real person in a smash tournament? I'm looking to organize tournaments when Ultimate comes out, i would love to have feedback about that before i do.

Edit: i thought this thread would address this issue but apparently 80% of it is about ZSS boobs and Falcon/Snake's butt

 

[Over9000BPM]

I'm stuck at step 4 right now...

People are reacting stongly to Bayo's presence, 'perceive her as broken' , for some reason (probably her playstyle like NocturnalQuill pointed out). I don't think there's any evidence to prove that this reason has something to do with her gender tho (i guess that what Over9000BPM meant by misandrist conspiracy nonsense).

Anyway... if you don't mind me asking again, is anybody ever witnessed direct, real-life sexism toward a real person in a smash tournament? I'm looking to organize tournaments when Ultimate comes out, i would love to have feedback about that before i do.

Edit: i thought this thread would address this issue but apparently 80% of it is about ZSS boobs and Falcon/Snake's butt

Well I’ve never been to any kind of event and I think everyone’s in agreement that sexism towards real life women with actual feelings is absolutely unacceptable. So characters is the only thing worth passing comment on for me.

The misandry is theorising that people hate Bayonetta due to her “ask your mum” line triggering the sexism and insecurity that is apparently innate to hardcore gamers. That is the single most offensive thing I’ve read this week.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not a fan of Bayonneta or Zero Suit Samus(in smash 4/Ultimate), but I don't think they're sexist. Samus specifically just seems a bit out of character.(Well, you know, from the bit of character she's given.)

I mean, they're definitely fanservice-y. But I'd be a hypocrite to say that I like me some male fanservice when it's done to my tastes.

 

[Magical Tuesday]

I'm not a fan of Bayonneta or Zero Suit Samus(in smash 4/Ultimate), but I don't think they're sexist. Samus specifically just seems a bit out of character.(Well, you know, from the bit of character she's given.)

I mean, they're definitely fanservice-y. But I'd be a hypocrite to say that I like me some male fanservice when it's done to my tastes.

I've always found Samus to be acceptable fanservice. She can't be expected to wear much under that suit and of course she's going to be hot if she's superhumanly fit. Pointing that out as any kind of "sexism" is pointless. It's like getting mad over comic book characters.

The way she's protrayed in Other M, and how they gave her high-heel rocket boots... Well, that's a different story,

 

[NintenEdgyMan]

The reason why ZSS has those last set of outfits is because she wears them in Fusion. She does it because it let's her be more flexible in her suit. Same with the Zero Suit.

Imagine how uncomfortable it would be to wear normal clothes inside that suit. The only playable appearance of ZSS besides the cheat in the origional is in Zero Mission where her suit gets destroyed. She wore it because it's what's flexible. Sure the morph ball is unrealistic but imagine how much more unrealistic it would be to do it with normal clothes on.

 

[Meritocracy]

I'm coming at this from a religious perspective, just as a heads up.
In the case of ZSS Alta's, they are appropriate, they would likely pass as workout clothes, and I would certainly call smash a workout.
TL;DR ZSS alts are like wearing workout clothes to the gym
Secondarily, Bayonetta's transition was handled well, she was well censored and not overly sexualized
(Please ignore the fact I have zero credibility when it comes to this subject, credibility doesn't actually affect the truth of arguments, just how likely they are to be true)

 

[Erimir]

The reason why ZSS has those last set of outfits is because she wears them in Fusion. She does it because it let's her be more flexible in her suit. Same with the Zero Suit.

Imagine how uncomfortable it would be to wear normal clothes inside that suit.

A fairly skintight suit like ZSS normally wears would make sense. It probably doesn't need to be quite that tight and revealing. The purpose would be to provide protection from the components inside the suit and have more breathability so her skin is not directly against metal/rubber/whatever inside the suit.

The suit is large and mechanical and she wears it in extremely hot environments. Wearing short shorts and a crop top doesn't make practical sense. Astronauts don't wear that under their spacesuits, people working in dangerously hot environments don't wear that under their protective gear (firefighters, for example). Wearing booty shorts won't keep you cool when you're already in a lava chamber inside a big metal mechanical suit. The only thing that will keep her cool is some kind of cooling system built into the suit.

I understand that they're in there as a reference to Fusion, but those outfits in Fusion are just fanservice, they aren't based off practical concerns.

ZSS's normal outfit (sans rocket heels) actually makes a lot of sense, far more than the booty shorts, although it probably emphasizes her breasts more than is practical (the rocket heels are just ridiculous, not based in canon and don't actually make any sense the way she uses them...).

 

[Over9000BPM]

I love how nobody ever seems to care about the varia suit being practically designed, like sure girl you turn into a two foot ball, carry enough missiles in that arm cannon to make the US government nervous and have enormous pauldrons that somehow don’t completely obscure your peripheral vision, but as soon as you take off that power suit you’ve got to be completely practical and rigidly follow all laws of real world biology and human anatomy.

 

[Erimir]

Metroid has basically magic in it, magical technology and magical biology. The morph ball is basically magic, sure.

This is just the usual genre of saying that a fantasy/sci-fi universe has XYZ differences from the real world, therefore there is no reason to complain about anything being unrealistic or not making sense. But these universes tend to have some internal logic to them, otherwise the narrative falls apart (or in the case of video games, it could also affect game play). If in the 5th book Harry Potter finds a magic genie lamp and uses it to wish for Voldemort's defeat, sure, you can say that's no more unrealistic than the story in general. But it wouldn't make sense with the Potterverse's internal logic and it wouldn't be a satisfying story. It would be stupid in Star Wars if they said "well, The Force is totally unrealistic, so it's ok if Finn becomes invulnerable to blaster shots when he's wearing just a thong, which makes it practical battle gear." Everyone would conclude that's stupid and makes no sense within the Star Wars universe, and was just an excuse to have John Boyega running around in a thong for sexual appeal. Smash Bros is not at all realistic, but people are still annoyed by hitboxes that extend beyond the character models in weird ways... or don't extend to parts of the animation where it appears they should. Saying a movie, show or game is unrealistic anyway doesn't excuse every choice (or error) the creators make.

Technology may be magic in Metroid, but the humans in Metroid are just regular humans. There is no indication that they have any significant difference from real-life humans. Therefore there's no reason to suppose that booty shorts are practical clothing for Samus when she's in action.

But at any rate, I was responding to the argument that booty shorts are practical for Samus to wear under her suit. Which is an argument that booty shorts are actually meant to make the game more realistic. And I'm saying that makes no sense, booty shorts are not practical or realistic, while the ZSS body suit actually makes sense as the kind of clothing you might wear inside a mech suit.

If you want to defend the fanservice as no big deal, do that. But don't tell me that skimpy clothing is actually practical in contexts where it's clearly not.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Metroid has basically magic in it, magical technology and magical biology. The morph ball is basically magic, sure.

This is just the usual genre of saying that a fantasy/sci-fi universe has XYZ differences from the real world, therefore there is no reason to complain about anything being unrealistic or not making sense. But these universes tend to have some internal logic to them, otherwise the narrative falls apart (or in the case of video games, it could also affect game play). If in the 5th book Harry Potter finds a magic genie lamp and uses it to wish for Voldemort's defeat, sure, you can say that's no more unrealistic than the story in general. But it wouldn't make sense with the Potterverse's internal logic and it wouldn't be a satisfying story. It would be stupid in Star Wars if they said "well, The Force is totally unrealistic, so it's ok if Finn becomes invulnerable to blaster shots when he's wearing just a thong, which makes it practical battle gear." Everyone would conclude that's stupid and makes no sense within the Star Wars universe, and was just an excuse to have John Boyega running around in a thong for sexual appeal. Smash Bros is not at all realistic, but people are still annoyed by hitboxes that extend beyond the character models in weird ways... or don't extend to parts of the animation where it appears they should. Saying a movie, show or game is unrealistic anyway doesn't excuse every choice (or error) the creators make.

Technology may be magic in Metroid, but the humans in Metroid are just regular humans. There is no indication that they have any significant difference from real-life humans. Therefore there's no reason to suppose that booty shorts are practical clothing for Samus when she's in action.

But at any rate, I was responding to the argument that booty shorts are practical for Samus to wear under her suit. Which is an argument that booty shorts are actually meant to make the game more realistic. And I'm saying that makes no sense, booty shorts are not practical or realistic, while the ZSS body suit actually makes sense as the kind of clothing you might wear inside a mech suit.

If you want to defend the fanservice as no big deal, do that. But don't tell me that skimpy clothing is actually practical in contexts where it's clearly not.

Samus isn’t one of those regular humans though, she was genetically modified by the Chozo that adopted her, so that she could survive in their environment.

Metroid canon doesn’t go into extensive detail about what exactly her modifications are, which combined with all the magic pseudoscience elsewhere gives Samus as much license outside of her suit as inside it to do whatever the heck she wants, in my opinion.

Also, the fanservice is no big deal

 

[Captain Shades]

I’ve actually thought about this topic, and honestly, I think Smash and Nintendo are the best at representing both genders. I think the key thing about Smash, and now more than ever, is variety. Smash isn’t something like SNK Heroines where every character has relatively the same body type, basically sexually designed characters in every sense of the word. There is a wide arrange of personality, design, and body types present in Smash. Take the males for example;

1) Mario, Olimar, Toon Link, and Little Mac are all short
2) Marth, Link, maybe even Pit all have a younger type of attractiveness to them (basically well toned)
3) Captain Falcon, Ike, heck even Snake are very muscular men, the more manly type
4) you even have heavier men like Wario (who’s actually pretty muscular)
5) Tall men with Snake

The females are the same way with many different types
1) Busty: Bayonetta
2) Flat: Lucina
3) Tall: Bayonetta, Rosalina, and Palutena, maybe even Samus
4) Short: Lucina (Technically)
5) Now Samus has even gotten a little muscular

Many of the females are pretty conservative when it comes to dress in Smash, Bayonetta really being the only outlier. Characters like Lucina are covered head to toe, showing little to no skin.

As for Samus’s Costume, was it really any worse than Shulk’s underwear. Plus Sakurai stated that a female developer made her suit in a Miiverse post, so if it is sexist, I’d bring it up to the female staff.

Honestly Smash has done well with designs. I think they’ve done the best to include everything that’s basically unchangable about a person in terms of body image, so whether your tall, medium, short, muscular, busty, flat, or all of the above, you have at least one character to represent you.

I don’t know if this answered the question, but I though I’d chime in.