Sexism in smash bros in general and character design:

[EIREXE]

Moral rules should not rule virtual worlds.

When you make an art piece, be a videogame, movie or drawing, sexualizing men for audiences that like men or women for audiences that like women is not exist, people should stop demonizing sex under the progresism banner.

Saying that sexual content in an art piece can be immoral or that it opresses a sex is a great lie.

There's nothing wrong in sexualizing your own or the opposite sex, it's sexist to transform sexuality in something bad to protect women. It's degrading to suggest in this aspect, women and men shouldn't be the same.

Why care? it's a virtual world, when you buy a videogame you are not presented with a world, you are presented with the artist's world, and not liking what you see is not a reason to change what the author's world is because as history has shown us, that's just plain dumb, I do not believe virtual worlds should follow any moral rule, as long as all characters are virtual and are never mixed with things from the outside it should never be an issue.

 

[Megakoopax]

I don't really have a problem with "sexy" character outfits. ZSS's alt costumes are based off of previous Metroid games and Shulk's alt is from Xenoblade Chronicles. I don't really see ZSS as an object and characters portrayed like that don't really bother me (except for Camilia in FE Fates but I digress)

 

[EIREXE]

I don't really have a problem with "sexy" character outfits. ZSS's alt costumes are based off of previous Metroid games and Shulk's alt is from Xenoblade Chronicles. I don't really see ZSS as an object and characters portrayed like that don't really bother me (except for Camilia in FE Fates but I digress)

Other: M treated samus as a character worse than anyone has ever done IMO.

 

[Megakoopax]

Other: M treated samus as a character worse than anyone has ever done IMO.

I haven't played Other M, I'm not too into Metroid. I heard that Other M was bad though.

 

[EIREXE]

I haven't played Other M, I'm not too into Metroid. I heard that Other M was bad though.

Other M was terrible, it's supposed to be placed near the end of the timeline iirc but then Samus seems so weak psycologically it's dumb and makes no sense that after fighting for so long she is weak.

 

[Megakoopax]

Other M was terrible, it's supposed to be placed near the end of the timeline iirc but then Samus seems so weak psycologically it's dumb and makes no sense that after fighting for so long she is weak.

It does sound pretty silly.

 

[Flonominal]

To talk strictly about the outfits, the females of Smash Bros have outfits completely derivative to their games. You see Peach and Zelda still wearing their dresses, and not having bikini clad made-up costumes. Sheik is still completely wrapped in cloth. Lucina and Palutena both have their original costumes. So for Zero-Suit Samus, I believe the exact same thing as other people were saying for the costumes. The fact that she is showing off skin in 2 costumes came out of Metroid in one way or another, and were not made up to somehow make the game sexier. Sakurai isn't gonna be dirty with us, he just wants to show off as many facets of a game franchise within a character as possible.

 

[MarMarTheGreat]

I dont understand why people are so concerned.

Sex is natural why repress it?

Liking **** and Ass is natural why shame people for thinking so?

Think about it every religion ever somehow wants to repress sexual freedom?

What is so scary about Sexual freedom again?

 

[gmBottles]

I dont understand why people are so concerned.

Sex is natural why repress it?

Liking **** and *** is natural why shame people for thinking so?

Think about it every religion ever somehow wants to repress sexual freedom?

What is so scary about Sexual freedom again?

Because "muh **** culture"

But really, I think people just find it a bit invasive. I don't really agree with that, but I think that's a reason. I have never seen it as an issue, as long as you don't have people running around saying/doing whatever they want to whoever they want, it shouldn't be an issue in the slightest.

 

[LeifEriksson]

I'm 100% cool with sexy outfits, I just wish they were more gender balanced in fighting games. Tekken Tag Tournament 2 is a great example of how to do this. Every character has some kind of swimsuit or sexy outfit, male or female, human and non human. It's exactly like how most games should have sexy outfits in my opinion.

 

[Ayydom]

First off, trying to find sexist innuendos in smash bros is pretty dumb.
But since I'm guessing this thread is mostly going to be about ZSS.. Smash is catered towards teen boys, a chick with a big rack is going to help generate a little more cash. It is simply a design choice.

 

[MarMarTheGreat]

WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON WHY DO I HAVE A ROY PROFILE PICTURE

 

[Professor Fizwidgit]

Maybe my opinion doesn't matter because I suppose I am not the most... "informed" person out there about stuff in general, but personally I haven't noticed people being that bad to each other. I think really people should just shrug and say "Oh it's a person playing smash hop aboard" and all that which seems to be the case. The only time I see people being extra rude to individuals tends to be when they are annoying or faffing about too much, and personally I don't see anybody else treated bad.

As for the costumes thing I am mixed. On one hand yes it is representing the various winscreens on the original metroid (that some people find debatable in/of itself) but on the otherhand, I think this is less a sexism thing and more a... sex.... thing. I mean we have that one skin for Shulk, Bayonetta.... in general, and Captain Falcon has turbo nipples, so I am pretty sure it is a general problem. I mean I just don't bother with it, but I guess I would prefer to not have boobies and man nips all over my screen when I am playing a game, but I don't see any particular sexism in it either.

I think it all comes from the attitude of the matter, like basically how we as a people take this sort of stuff is how it will affect us. If we just let this stuff in and say "Yeah that's good" then it will continue or whatever, but if we say "This is utter poo we hate you monsters" we will probably come off as harsh or even confused about the matter to people." Frankly I think it is better to be more like "Ah this game is alright, maybe tone down the nasty bits though that is kinda garbage." and if that is the consensus it kinda just ends like that.

I guess I am just trying to say be good to people, stay calm about this sort of stuff but speak your opinion and it all ends up alright in the end I bet.

 

[Ayydom]

WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON WHY DO I HAVE A ROY PROFILE PICTURE

Because Roy's our boy.

 

[N7Kopper]

Men will insult each other and not mean it.
Women will compliment each other and not mean it.

Combine this fact that women often know little about how men socialise with a massive vested feminist interest (do you know how many billions of worldwide dollars they funnel?) in lying to young women and girls about how "vile and misogynistic" that communities everywhere are. It stands to reason that the vast majority of the "sexism" is purely a result of men and women being treated equally. Feminist groups railing hard against the criminalisation of male genital mutilation, anyone? For no reason other than treating boys and girls as equal?

Or, hell, the persistent demonisation of the rag-tag bunch of gamers who posted under THE hashtag, for no reason other than that they represent a grassroots resistance to feminist and social justice ideology. Men and women of all stripes painted as monsters, and attacked, harrassed, and doxed by organisations such as Crash Override Network, and even the mainstream media. Including my girlfriend. My transsexual girlfriend. (Because I know you'll try the identity politics crap)

Modern feminism learned well from the axe-tossing, fire-setting, racist sexist classist Suffragettes.

Right down to the whole "puritanical indignation at women hotter than them that stems from their own insecurities" they spew.

Tl;dr: OP needs to stop trying to pick on women by taking away their sexy power fantasy characters like Samus and Bayonetta.

 

[SSG SAX GAMER]

Let's start the debate off with this, why do half of ZSS's outfits have to show so much skin that she could easily be a stand in for a waitress at the more famously sexist "resuaunt" that I will not name as I think it's name is too sexist/sexually charged to be posted here. This is basically like having Captain Falcon, little mac, and Link wearing a speedo, it's not comfortable for them, but it's still what they would have to deal with being thought of every time mentioned their name.

There is a shulk skin where he's only in his underwear. Also, most of the people that play it are teenage guys so they are catering to their audience. It doesn't depict oppression or anything like that. It also isn't there to belittle women or anything else of the sort.

 

[SSG SAX GAMER]

I don't recall ever "through sexism for random stuff", which I'm assuming means something like "Looking for sexism where none exists". I've brought up plenty of examples of women being treated poorly in smash

about the random stuff, I think he's refering to people like anita sarkeesian who cried about things like how she thought mario was sexist because he saved peach.

 

[Tino]

I don't care about a character's "sexy" outfit, body or other sexist nonsense. It doesn't change the way I play my games, Smash in general.

 

[Ham-R]

AHAHAHA OH GOD NOT ＴＨＩＳ

 

[Synnett]

Personally I find it sad because I like dresses on women. I like them to be dressed in short lol. All I see are sexualized outfits and it doesn't interest me at all. There's a nice clothing culture to explore among all the time periods but all we see is this plates bikini or pieces of fabric loosely hanging from their body. It's not immersive I'd say.

For smash bros I've never really seen any sexism, it's just that the female players are rare. Maybe it's how the people act I don't know, I'm not one to judge on their body lol.

 

[N7Kopper]

Personally I find it sad because I like dresses on women. I like them to be dressed in short lol. All I see are sexualized outfits and it doesn't interest me at all. There's a nice clothing culture to explore among all the time periods but all we see is this plates bikini or pieces of fabric loosely hanging from their body. It's not immersive I'd say.

For smash bros I've never really seen any sexism, it's just that the female players are rare. Maybe it's how the people act I don't know, I'm not one to judge on their body lol.

Not being fond of women in skimpy outfits because you find women in long dresses more attractive?
Lo and behold, an actually good reason.

 

[Luigi#1]

Honestly my amount of Friends that play Smash is about 50/50 in gender, but that doesn't mean much in terms of actual statistics, other than it's bullcrap to say almost no females play Smash. Honestly I've never enjoyed fanservice in any more of media. I just feel like you can just get it elsewhere.
That being said, I don't think it's fair to the people that do like it, and while I don't enjoy it I'm not disgusted by sexualized portions of games. But I do believe it should be equal in both genders if it is present. Even if there are less males than females that play Smash, that isn't an excuse to not have the fanservice spread out. That's like saying when you have stairs, ramps shouldn't exist cause so few people can't use stairs.

 

[Jaruto]

I don't care about a character's "sexy" outfit, body or other sexist nonsense. It doesn't change the way I play my games, Smash in general.

Like same, The character may have some big ol' tiddy's going on but its not gonna change how a play the game / look at people and their bodies

Also , if i want to look at people in a suggestive way i'm not gonna be going to smash bro's to get off to ZSS (unless it's a well spaced Down B spike),

 

[BagrB0y]

In character design, I almost completely ignore any 'sexism' claims. Sure, you can say there is intentionally done sexual appeal, but if we take the ZSS example- What about CaptainFalcon? I feel like six pack abs and rock hard muscles under a jumpsuit are generalizing a fit male stereotype and need to be changed. They are clearly not acceptable and CF needs to get a visual revamp to remove any toned muscles.

^ See how ridiculous this sounds when put into context? Like I remember hearing about this in League of Legends for there being too many females with big boobs, and I just laughed and would point out that pretty much every male character at the time (with a few exceptions, as was the case with females aswell) had chests made of chiseled rock if their models were anything to go by.

So at the end of the day, my general thoughts on character design is that it doesn't really matter, because generally it happens everywhere. Currently I think Nintendo also has a diverse cast of characters that break this because of how Smash is structured (I.E. King DD, Samus, etc.) and the 'problem' is really a self resolving one.


In the case of Sexism within the smash scene, from just what I have heard I think it is an issue, but I cannot attest from personal experience. I think (again, based on what I have heard) there should be some harsher actions taken based on harassment, but I both understand hesitance to do so from a local side.

To some extent, I think there just have to be more women visible in the Smash scene both at the local and higher / spectator level. If more women get into smash and are visible, then I think stereotypes (girls bad at smash, just in it for attention, etc.) will become harder and harder to justify.

Currently though, I do not believe there are any women within the top10 rankings for SSBM or Smash4. If this were to change, lets say we saw a couple women in the Smash4 scene at a high level... That could result in some serious changes

 

[Mgl]

People love **** and asses, and hell if it helps sell a product company will never stop doing it. In terms of the community, I blame the fact that the more passionate people in the gaming community have little social interactions and don't know whats socially except able.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I've never understood this kind of attitude. Women's bodies shouldn't be stigmatized, yet women need to cover up. I swear to god, these people would have been evangelical Christians ten years ago.

Make ZSS busty, and give Snake his butt back. More for everyone!

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

People love **** and *****, and hell if it helps sell a product company will never stop doing it. In terms of the community, I blame the fact that the more passionate people in the gaming community have little social interactions and don't know whats socially except able.

I've never understood this kind of attitude. Women's bodies shouldn't be stigmatized, yet women need to cover up. I swear to god, these people would have been evangelical Christians ten years ago.

Make ZSS busty, and give Snake his butt back. More for everyone!

This old thread was an interesting read at the beginning... but really it went nowhere... i thought i would learn something in here. Better luck next time i guess.

The costume thing took way more place in the debate than i thought.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Well OP got the last laugh in the end. Enjoy your utterly sexless Smash Ultimate Snake and ZSS.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I'd like to believe that it was an artistic choice to go along with the more realistic style. I don't mind if creators do this kind of thing because they actually wanted to. What bothers me is when people get bullied and/or guilted into playing along with the whole "sexy=sexist" angle. Realistically, I have a feeling that it happened because either the European or American age rating systems threatened them with a higher rating if they didn't tone it down.

Noe-puritanism was a mistake.

 

[Over9000BPM]

I'd like to believe that it was an artistic choice to go along with the more realistic style. I don't mind if creators do this kind of thing because they actually wanted to. What bothers me is when people get bullied and/or guilted into playing along with the whole "sexy=sexist" angle. Realistically, I have a feeling that it happened because either the European or American age rating systems threatened them with a higher rating if they didn't tone it down.

Noe-puritanism was a mistake.

My favourite character is straight up misrepresented in Ultimate. If she still looks like that when the game releases, I’m so done with this franchise.

 

[Mgl]

My favourite character is straight up misrepresented in Ultimate. If she still looks like that when the game releases, I’m so done with this franchise.

If a characters boob size determines if shes accurate to the source material, Lara Croft was butchered in her recent incarnations

 

[Over9000BPM]

If a characters boob size determines if shes accurate to the source material, Lara Croft was butchered in her recent incarnations

That’s an in-series change of direction. If Samus had actually been flattened this much in the game this design is allegedly based on, I would have forced myself to get used to it.

 

[Mgl]

That’s an in-series change of direction. If Samus had actually been flattened this much in the game this design is allegedly based on, I would have forced myself to get used to it.

Then what change are you referring too?

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I think he's referring to Samus' changed... proportions relative to her appearane in previous smash games and most Metroid games. So long as this was either a stylistic change to fit the more realistic aesthetic of Ultimate or her being based off her one playable appearance in Zero Mission, I have no qualms at all. If it was done in response to people pretending to be offended or institutional censorship, then I have a problem. Out of those two, the latter is more likely considering that Japan is probably the least politically correct country in the first world.

 

[Astroworld]

Ugh not this discussion again

Snake had a bigger ass than Samus in Brawl and Shulk’s underwear alt shows more skin than Samus’ shorts and bra

I don't see how ZSS's design is sexist.

She wears heels. How many non-bad ***** fight in heels, let alone use them as a flipping weapon.

I like how Samus fighting in heels is a huge controversy but Raiden fighting in heels is no big deal

 

[Over9000BPM]

I think he's referring to Samus' changed... proportions relative to her appearane in previous smash games and most Metroid games. So long as this was either a stylistic change to fit the more realistic aesthetic of Ultimate or her being based off her one playable appearance in Zero Mission, I have no qualms at all. If it was done in response to people pretending to be offended or institutional censorship, then I have a problem. Out of those two, the latter is more likely considering that Japan is probably the least politically correct country in the first world.

I think she’s meant to be stacked in Zero Mission too, based on the artwork and completion screens. The ingame sprites just didn’t show it well because pixels were at a premium on the GBA.

 

[Mgl]

I think she’s meant to be stacked in Zero Mission too, based on the artwork and completion screens. The ingame sprites just didn’t show it well because pixels were at a premium on the GBA.

Honestly though, designs are going to change with time its just gonna happen. We should be thankfull that shes still samus and not whatever they tried to pull with other m

 

[Over9000BPM]

Honestly though, designs are going to change with time its just gonna happen. We should be thankfull that shes still samus and not whatever they tried to pull with other m

For all the things Other M did wrong, I did actually like the way she looked in that game. Other than the Gravity Suit being an aura.

 

[Mgl]

For all the things Other M did wrong, I did actually like the way she looked in that game. Other than the Gravity Suit being an aura.

I was talking more about her personality

 

[Astroworld]

I was talking more about her personality

it’s funny that they declared the Prime games non canon in favor of Other M and not it seems like it’s the other way around