Set-ups with Bowser - The Master Plan [WIP]

[Flayl]

Bowser isn’t a combo based character. He’s designed to be the straightforward hard heavy hitter who can also take blows like a champ. However, this does not mean getting those hits in automatically resets the positioning and timing advantage! Besides the obvious off-stage scenarios, sometimes striking your opponent can be used to further increase the pressure, if not create situations where you can deal even more damage. The objective of this thread is to let you as a Bowser player know your range of options and how to best mix and match attacks according to your last move.

Set-ups and improbable combos will be divided into their own categories and ranked by usefulness. I will try to get the %s each work against the heaviest and lightest character possible, but it’ll take a long while (you can help!).

How to read the parenthesis (XX% - YY%~ZZ%; Character A+): The set-up works starting at XX% and stops working at YY% against the lightest character and at ZZ% against Bowser. Character A is the lightest and/or floatiest character the set-up works on.

Color and Luminosity Code:
· Light Blue = Guaranteed
· Green = Reliable
· Dark Red = Unreliable
· Grey = Does not set up at all
· White = Not looked at yet

A attacks:
· (Neutral) A
· · · Walk Into Grab (Always, Big Characters)
· · · Dash Into Grab (Always, Everyone)
· AA
· Side A
· Up A
· Down A
· Dash Attack

Aerials:
· Neutral Aerial
· · · Last Hits Into Up A (0% - ??%~??%, ???+)
· Forward Aerial
· Back Aerial
· · · Short hop against grounded opponent Into Side B (0% - 15%, ???+)
· · · Full jump against aerial opponent Into Back Aerial (0% - ??%~??%, ???+)
· Up Aerial
· Down Aerial

B Specials:
o Neutral B
· Fire Breath
· Fire Shot
· Fire Roar

o Side B
· Flying Slam
· Dash Slam
· Dash Slash
· · · Aerial Version Strong Hit Into Grab, A, Side A, Up A, Down A, Forward Aerial (0% - ??%~??%, ???+)
· · · Aerial Version Strong Hit Into Bowser Bomb (0% - 10%~15%, Mario+)
· · · Aerial Version Weak Hit Into Grab, A, Side A, Up A, Down A, Forward Aerial (0% - ??%~??%, ???+)
· · · Aerial Version Weak Hit Into Bowser Bomb (0% - ??%~??%, Pikachu+)
o Up B
· Whirling Fortress
· Flying Fortress
· Sliding Fortress

o Down B
· Bowser Bomb
· Turbulence Bomb
· Slip Bomb
· · · Dash Slam or Dash Klaw (Always, Everyone)

Smashes:
· Forward Smash
· Down Smash
· Up Smash
· · · Into Up A (0% - ??%~??%, ???+)

Footstool:
· · · Into Down Aerial
· · · Into Down B

Throws:
· Forward Throw
· · · Into Dash Attack (0% - ??%~??%, ???+)
· Back Throw
· · · Into Dash Attack (0% - ??%~??%, ???+)
· Up Throw
· · · Into (Double) Jump Forward Aerial (0% - 20%~120%, Captain Falcon, Falco, Fox, Greninja, King Dedede, Sheik...)
· Down Throw

Thanks to the following contributors:
BSL
HeavyLobster
Jerodak
keronshb
Kooky Koopa

 

[Flayl]

Second post reserved for adding tidbits or to help organize

Does anyone know if you can instant dash attack in this game? Diagonal Down Forward doesn't seem to work. Best I got so far is to double tap in the direction I want

 

[BSL]

Nair->up tilt links often, not sure if guaranteed

 

[HeavyLobster]

Aerial Dash Slash is an amazing combo starter. I've only tested it in training mode, but it registers Aerial Dash Slash -> Utilt as a true combo on the entire cast at 0%. I've also been able to combo it into Grab, Jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt, though I can't give details on the characters or percents just yet. To get a general idea of how good this move is as a combo starter, I've been able to execute ADS -> Utilt on Mario from 0-130%, though you do have to hit the ADS sourspot(does 6% instead of 8% in training mode) and Utilt immediately to pull it off at higher %s. I've also been able to get ADS -> Ftilt from 0%-50%. I'll continue to see what I can find, but it would be nice if a more skilled player could help to test just to see how good this is, and if I'm missing anything.

 

[HeavyLobster]

To follow up my previous post, I've found that ADS -> Fair is a very useful combo that's worked on all of the characters I've tested it on. I've been able to get it to work starting at 20% on Jigglypuff, and around 55% on Bowser. At lower %s you have to land the strong hit of ADS for it to combo, but at higher %s (usually around 30% or so after it starts working) you have to land the weak hit to be able to combo. I've been able to land the weak hit into Fair as high as 140ish on multiple characters and kill(remember that this is still just in training mode). Right now ADS -> Fair looks like the go-to combo at mid percents and higher because it usually knocks your opponent offstage and sets up for an edgeguard attempt. I think I may have seen some other combos off of this but I can't tell how situational they are.

 

[Jerodak]

Any Footstool to Dair: Not percentage based at all, should work as long as you time Dair properly and read their trajectory if the footstool was done in the air.

Air stool to Bowser bomb: should work if they go into the hard knockdown or don't DI away from you.

SHFFFair to stuff: This only works on characters that can be hit with rising short hopped Forward air, so far I've only tested it on Ganon but my results so far is that it seems possible starting at around 18% up until about 50% performing the fastfall properly is rather tricky when the attack connects, but outside of that, the fast fall should shave off enough frames for jab to connect at earlier percents and ftilt at later percents.

This also makes applying pressure easier even if you aren't going for a follow up because you shave off some extra frames and can get going faster, it also makes Fair slightly safer.

Dair spike to Upsmash: Not gauranteed because the ground bounce can be teched but once they bounce, as long as it's not too high, I've usually been able to get the up smash. The shellguard property on the up smash pretty much prevents them from attacking you unless you take too long. Up tilt could probably work here as well and maybe up air.

Fortress trip to stuff: It depends on when they trip during the attack, how fast the realized what happened, and how they react. However, it happens pretty often, and I've gotten a few follow ups, mainly either Dtilt, Ftilt, Dsmash, or another fortress.

Jab 1 to stuff: Jab mix-ups are still good, it depends on the situation and character but I've gotten my fair share of jab to Dtilt and jab to ftilt. I've done a few jab to klaws as well but not as often. None of these are true combos probably but they do work pretty often, especially in edge guarding situations, when you jab someone that is offstage, the Dtilt connects quite often.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

Grab Pummel and follow up: Still works surprisingly, but what hits the opponent after entirely depends on their weight class and %.

Something I use for OOS grab is to pummel them as much as possible and either neutral A for the double punch jab, or a f-tilt when they're low. As their % goes up, even light characters can become susceptible to a grab pummel and a d-tilt which can be very strong and works on light weights from 90% up roughly.

Not guaranteed but still very possible and if it works, it does so very well.

 

[Sudai]

Ledge hop FAir auto-cancels really easily and can lead to Any Tilt/Jab below 15%. FTilt/DTilt connects until around 25-30%.

All my percent estimates based on mario/similar weighted characters.

We should probably standardize what weight range we're talking about or else the chart might get messy if we start going in to "XX-YY vs light, AA-BB, on medium, ect"


Edit: Thought I was in Bowser Jr section for some reason. Ignore combo bits, but the last part is still valid imo.

 

[B!squick]

Is it just me, or is light blue nearly indistinguishable from white? Maybe I am color blind...

 

[HeavyLobster]

Wow, so here's a list of everything I CAN'T combo into out of Aerial Dash Slash in at least some situation:
FSmash
Bair(might be possible with a C-stick on some heavyweight but it's really hard to do a frame-perfect Bair moving forward on the 3DS)
Dair
Fire Breath(all variants)
Slip Bomb(no first hitbox)
Aerial Dash Slash(sadly, though grounded works fine)

I've been able to land ADS to Usmash on Falcon from 0-30% by hitting him early in the Slash hitbox so you slide under him. You can also do ADS -> Uair at higher %s in this way. I've also been able to combo into both hits of Bowser Bomb for 30% damage against Falcon from around 5% to 50%. In general it's best to either hit your opponent with the first half of the strong hitbox or with the weak hitbox for the best and most reliable combos. It's also good to practice hitting with the weak hitbox because if you hit your opponents shield you can grab immediately upon hitting the ground. I'm not sure exactly how safe it is because I've only done this against CPUs, but I think it's pretty safe on regular shield, though they can get away if they powershield. I can't say for sure how reliable any of this will be once you account for vectoring and rage mechanics, but I suspect the weak hit stuff won't be affected much at all since you can still land stuff at 130-140% on chars like Dark Pit and Mario, though some of the strong hit combos(especially the ones requiring more specific %s) could be hurt.

 

[keronshb]

UTilt (backwards) > USmash at lower percentages. So you're hitting them with the end of your claw (when facing the opposite way) and immediately doing USmash. Personally I'd put this as Unreliable since I'm not sure if it's escape able or not, plus they need to be right behind you.

 

[Jerodak]

I managed to get a Fair to Fsmash. The Fair caused a knockdown, I fast fell it, they teched in place when they hit the ground, and that gave me the Fsmash. I didn't do this on purpose, in fact I was trying to Ftilt. However, I think that knockdowns from Fair will probably be more common in this game and it might be good to start considering our tech chase options when connecting with Fair.

What do you guys think? Have you noticed a lot of knock downs and teching after connecting with Fair? Do you think that this is worth looking into?

 

[Flinbi]

I'm not sure if this is the place for me to ask this question but I'll go ahead and ask anyway since I'm a Bowser main:

Are there any abbreviations I should know? Because reading above I can't really understand what some mean, such as ADS, Footstool, SHFFFair, etc.

I know thinks like utilt, ftilt, usmash, dsmash, but those above I'm not sure about. Thanks.

 

[MrEh]

Are there any abbreviations I should know? Because reading above I can't really understand what some mean, such as ADS, Footstool, SHFFFair, etc.

HeavyLobster flat out says what ADS means. :/

 

[Flayl]

I'll be adding these to the list and make a contributors list as well, thanks guys!

 

[MrEh]

I'm already looking into some really filthy grab followups.

EDIT: Dammit nevermind. Hit Klaw sucks.

 

[Jerodak]

@ F Flinbi

SHFFFair: Short hop fast fall forward air.

Footstool: Jumping off someone's head.

 

[Flinbi]

HeavyLobster flat out says what ADS means. :/

I was typing as I was reading the page, thanks.

@ F Flinbi

SHFFFair: Short hop fast fall forward air.

Footstool: Jumping off someone's head.

Thank you. ^^

 

[Jerodak]

So I've been looking into the properties of the improved Fair, and it certainly is looking like an amazing set-up tool for Bowser.

Starting at around 18% and going up to about 60%, and possibly higher, forward air gains some interesting properties on hit.

The following results are from testing done on Jigglypuff and Pit, mostly on Pit.

18-28: Now at about this percent, it seems that anyone who isn't super floaty is forced to land during hitstun, meaning that they WILL enter a knocked down state at this percent. If they miss a tech, it's possible to follow up with an Fsmash. If they Tech in place, that can also be Fsmashed. Tech rolls can be read and chased with dash attack, dash grab, klaw, down smash, e.c.t depending on which direction they roll.


29-50: Most or all opponents should be able to start jumping just before they would hit the ground, but them hitting the ground is still plausible, and you can still follow up quickly to get a tech chase or to punish the double jump with a rising aerial. Landing an Fsmash is probably no longer possible at this range. I haven't tested it though, so i'm not one hundred percent sure.


60+: At this point they probably won't even land anymore but you can still follow after them so that you are in an advantageous position, at this point it's more about just maintaining pressure and staying in their face instead of just letting them fly off uselessly; unless you really needed the breathing room for some reason.

This is all just the overall gist of what I've seen during my time in the lab and while testing against a friend, and I have actually gotten the Fair to Fsmash in a 1on1 match before, that's actually what got me started on looking into this. None of these will probably lead to guaranteed hit unless you try got the jab or Ftilt after Fair depending on percent. Also remember, that fast falling the Fair really helps, especially in the later percents.

 

[Flayl]

Did some messing around against Sonic: BAir against a grounded Sonic is a really good set up for Klaw until about 15%, then the "techable" animation comes into play. What's the proper term for that?

Hitting an opponent in the air with BAir can be followed up (bet used against characters with slower aerials) with another BAir.

I'd like some help testing Full jump BAir -> fastfall and subsequent follow-ups

 

[B!squick]

I didn't notice you couldn't jump until landing from Klaw until recently somehow. And here I thought the range nerf was bad. No wonder they let Bowser win Bowsercides. If you can actually pull off that situation, you deserve to win. I think just landing Klaw will be an extremely rare occurrence. On the ground pivot grab has superior range and in the air ANY else would be a better option even if grab armor still existed.

Amazing how what was arguably Bowser's best move just might be his worst. There's got to be a way or situation where it's useful...

 

[MrEh]

Klaw is still useful for turning yourself around in the air, or baiting shields when you fall on people.

 

[S_B]

I've managed to SH off the ledge klaw into a Bowsercide, but a wary opponent would expect it and hit you with an aerial accordingly.

Also, I've done an embarrassing number of OOS klaws when I meant to fortress and they've landed pretty damn reliably. It you're quick about doing it when someone rolls behind you, it's probably a better punish than fortress.

I would still stick with fortress when someone tries to land on you, however...

 

[Jerodak]

@ B!squick

The first area where Klaw is good is when you need a fast punish option, but want either more damage or power than Dash attack or dash grab, and when Bowser bomb either won't kill, isn't safe yet, or when Klaw would K.O anyway. It's also still a good spotdodge and roll bait and it's useful as a mix-up when in the air. Shielding is a popular option against Bowser in the air, when we aren't using Bowser bomb, so it's still good then, in fact it might even be better than before since it's not as popular of an option as it used to be which means that players aren't expecting it as often. Ultimately, I don't really feel like the new klaw is THAT bad, it's certainly not his worst move, I feel like down smash would probably fit that role better and I actually like down smash.

 

[BSL]

I like klaw a lot.

The SHAD fortress conditions people to shield, then you can start grabbing them with SHAD klaw

 

[B!squick]

Don't you get a lot of landing lag AD?

 

[MrEh]

The first area where Klaw is good is when you need a fast punish option

Bowser Bomb does that already though. It also does more damage and actually kills early.

Bowser Bomb also has nearly twice the range of grounded Klaw.

 

[Jerodak]

Bowser Bomb does that already though. It also does more damage and actually kills early.

Bowser Bomb also has nearly twice the range of grounded Klaw.

That's certainly true, and I'm actualy a major advocate of using Bowser bomb for low precent kills off of early mistakes, the fact that both hits link properly means that we can finally use it outside of just getting reads for occasional surprise K.Os and even if it doesn't kill it does an impressive amount of damage and it's even useful for edgeguarding. So I'm completely in agreement that Bowser Bomb is an amazing punish, and many of my kills have been Bomb kills.

However, I also mentioned a few other conditions in my post.

The first area where Klaw is good is when you need a fast punish option, but want either more damage or power than Dash attack or dash grab, and when Bowser bomb either won't kill, isn't safe yet, or when Klaw would K.O anyway.

So basically, if the opponent is not at Bowser bomb kill percent, or if they are already 100-130~% anyway then you will want to use klaw because it's a vastly safer option in general. If the opponet is at roughly 0-30% or so depending on the character, then Bowser Bomb isn't even safe on hit. Also, missing with a klaw isn't much more punishable than missing a dash attack or dash grab, while the bomb is probably the most punishable attack that Bowser has. Also when you consider the fact that the klaw is better for punishing moving opponents, thanks to the fact that they are caught, and that's it as opposed to the bomb's first hit where it's entirely possible for a moving opponent to be sent flying too far for the second hit to connect. So, if the opponent is also at percents where klaw will kill anyway then I would rather use the Klaw if it's applicable since it's less risk and I still get a stock from it, but I will still look for the bomb in certain situations, like when edgeguarding. Since I can ledge cancel it to remove most of the risk involved in using it, which makes it the safer option in those situations.

Of course, to take what I just said and throw it all out of the window, raw bomb in neutral is a pretty fun way to get the K.O on overly aggro opponents.

But in a nutshell, 0-30~% Klaw, 50-90% or so then Bomb all the way, 100-130~% Klaw, While edgeguarding at any percent, especially if they like to use ledge attack or ledge hopped aerials, Bomb.

 

[MrEh]

The ranges in which Bomb doesn't combo against opponents are ranges where Klaw won't connect to begin with. So that's not really a fair thing to bring up.

I'm only talking about guaranteed punishes though. When the punish is guaranteed, there is no reason to Klaw ever. It doesn't matter what percent your opponent is at.

 

[Anragon]

So I was derping in Training mode and found something interesting.

We all know that Bowser has one of the fastest (if not "the" as the best) "Stop running" animation. You know. When you run and let go off your circle pad, Bowser stops immediately and you can use all your ground options just as quickly.

Well, I noticed that if you combine this with your Jab Combo, you can set-up for a "tech chase" or a reliable follow-up.
They will be FORCED to land on the ground because of the hitstun.
It works at 0% to 60% until they fly too far away. You have to :

Jab Combo -> Dash -> Stop -> Anything except aerials or smashes (unless you get a hard read and land that Dropkick)

At 0%, they won't suffer from their "tumble" animation and will enter this weird hitstun animation. You can chase them but they can shield just in time if they react quickly. Since Jab 1 is pretty safe, you can still poke them but you can do even better by conditionning them and grab/Side-B if you know they will shield;

Around 30%, they will enter this "tumble" animation which make them crash on the ground and lie flat.
You can take advantage of this by reacting/predictig their limited options. It's the same thing that Snake was able to do in Brawl with his Down-Throw.

Be aware that if they don't move and crash or tech on the spot, you can straight away Jab combo again because Jab is quick and last long enough to hit them. If you they roll away, you can Dash attack and if they roll into you, you can laugh and Pivot F-tilt/F-smash/Whatever.

Well then, that was my little analysis about Jab. Let me know if i'm wrong because it can be some next level sh*t if this is true and reliable (I did this many times against my brother who is a good player). I can make a video about that if you guys want some "visual" proof of it.

Also sorry if you didn't understand a single thing about my english.

 

[S_B]

Bowser Bomb does that already though. It also does more damage and actually kills early.

Bowser Bomb also has nearly twice the range of grounded Klaw.

If your opponent has rolled behind you while you're shielding, you won't be able to hit them with the bomb startup, though (unless it's possible to change direction while shielding).

The klaw can usually work there, though I agree that I'd rather hit them with the bomb if possible.

 

[MrEh]

If your opponent has rolled behind you while you're shielding, you won't be able to hit them with the bomb startup, though (unless it's possible to change direction while shielding).

B Reversing is a thing.

Also, if your opponent rolls behind you when you're shielding, you should be mashing UpB in most cases, since that's the fastest and most reliable punish anyway.

 

[S_B]

B Reversing is a thing.

Does that work when shielding, though?

 

[EarthenPillar]

Does that work when shielding, though?

No. It works as you let shield go, then Crouch -> Down-B (tilting in the direction you want it).

Imo, as MrEh said, Up-B is the way to go as a reaction by default, then fortress slide them to a side that benefits you. Down-B is an option for damage but that requires your opponent to do something punishable.

 

[MrEh]

^

Does that work when shielding, though?

No, but neither does Klaw.

 

[Flayl]

Using a custom klaw after tripping with slip bomb isn't guaranteed, but it gives you a safe way to close the distance while giving a good payoff if it hits, so I'm including it here if that's okay with you folks.

 

[Jerodak]

Ledge trump to down smash has been fairly reliable for me but other possible set ups could be ledge trump to ledge jump back air, ledge trump to ledge jump up air, and ledge trump to SH Dair spike. It depends on how the opponent reacts to getting trumped off. You'll do the ledge jump back air or up air if they try going high and get up to dsmash or SH Dair if they go low or put themselves in a position where they must regrab. If they airdodge, you can try to ledge drop back air them out of it.

This is just what I've found so far, there might be some other options available that I haven't considered, some characters are much harder to edgeguard without ledge trumping, so I think mastering this will be important for Bowser as the metagame develops.

 

[Flayl]

What is a ledge trump? o_O

 

[B!squick]

What is a ledge trump? o_O

When you grab the ledge after your opponent, "trumping" them and pushing them off.

 

[Zigsta]

What is a ledge trump? o_O

What Jay said.

Although now I don't get why Jerodak is saying ledgetrump to dsmash....