Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

We all have biases and are biased, analysing tends to involve going a bit deeper than "I disagree" - whether you find it insulting or not is your own prerogative.
We tend to have similar notions and justifications in several areas of this discussion, but are drawing different conclusions (assumptions/miscommunications abound too).

I'm not even directly stating nor intentionally insinuating most of these 'insults'. Fundamentally irrational as a person? "Must be a scrub"? There would be top level players who have lesser verbose understanding of concepts than you and I even in relation to characters they main. We also all are on a relatively linear path of advancing and they tend to share similarities. although they are at different stages.

If you're willing to exclaim something along the lines of "How can marth be top tier when a falcon vs marth crew battle goes in falcon's favour </sarcasm>" (not even necessary to my point here) while also saying that the handful of players at high level are just skillful/etc and it's not because of the strength of the character, you're devoiding value of REAL results in favour of stuff that aligns with your bias.

From what I've read you have misunderstandings of Marth's neutral (my own nigh defined view of neutral nearly 2 decades in the making), I'd say in the areas of how reaction shapes things (and perhaps layers of complexity; you have the option of shielding/dodging/etc after landing with nair1; 'I can attempt this', yet a hyper majority of it working out comes from the preceding steps - although you acknowledge the 'difficulty' of it, what other opportunities are you giving up for this?) but it is a 'guess' of sorts as I'm only going off very little information [and understanding =/= execution as well].
Don't worry, we all suck at neutral and neutral is more complex in Smash4 than Brawl for sure (movement optionssssss, tons of shield safety and good attacks, lack of all encompassing buffering).
I'm not here to insult you, I would hopefully have better and more productive things to do.

 

[DariusM27]

We all have biases and are biased, analysing tends to involve going a bit deeper than "I disagree" - whether you find it insulting or not is your own prerogative.
We tend to have similar notions and justifications in several areas of this discussion, but are drawing different conclusions (assumptions/miscommunications abound too).

I'm not even directly stating nor intentionally insinuating most of these 'insults'. Fundamentally irrational as a person? "Must be a scrub"? There would be top level players who have lesser verbose understanding of concepts than you and I even in relation to characters they main. We also all are on a relatively linear path of advancing and they tend to share similarities. although they are at different stages.

If you're willing to exclaim something along the lines of "How can marth be top tier when a falcon vs marth crew battle goes in falcon's favour </sarcasm>" (not even necessary to my point here) while also saying that the handful of players at high level are just skillful/etc and it's not because of the strength of the character, you're devoiding value of REAL results in favour of stuff that aligns with your bias.

From what I've read you have misunderstandings of Marth's neutral (my own nigh defined view of neutral nearly 2 decades in the making), I'd say in the areas of how reaction shapes things (and perhaps layers of complexity; you have the option of shielding/dodging/etc after landing with nair1; 'I can attempt this', yet a hyper majority of it working out comes from the preceding steps - although you acknowledge the 'difficulty' of it, what other opportunities are you giving up for this?) but it is a 'guess' of sorts as I'm only going off very little information [and understanding =/= execution as well].
Don't worry, we all suck at neutral and neutral is more complex in Smash4 than Brawl for sure (movement optionssssss, tons of shield safety and good attacks, lack of all encompassing buffering).
I'm not here to insult you, I would hopefully have better and more productive things to do.

Imo, ZeRo overrated Marth, because Mr E and Mk Leo have good results with him, and Pug had achieved great things, but also has been not performing as highly lately.
False hasn't been doing great with Marth at all lately.

This is a side point, perhaps not relevant, but I'd like to point out that Mr R picked up Marth for a while, and since dropped him. ZeRo has said many times that he thinks Marth is perhaps the coolest character and he'd love to use him, but ZeRo's Marth is unimpressive, even though he's probably tried with him more than other characters.

So beside Mr E and Leo, where are these results coming from?
I personally attribute those wins to the players, and concede that Marth is high tier, but I do not think he is top tier.

Also, your first response to my MU opinion was to presume that I essentially don't understand Marth at high level play.

No one else in this comment section has fe lt the need to call someone else's competence into question over a disagreement.

Like I said, you can just give YOUR opinion and your reasoning for your opinion. Even if you're going to call out the other guy's view in some way, you don't have to make presumptions on his ability on the game and CERTAINLY not his rationality and ability to apply logic and reason.

Yeah, that kind of stuff is offensive and entirely unnecessary - Especially since I asked for opinions on Marth's MU spread.
I didn't ask for personal or psycological criticism from you, and I wont be any time soon.

 

[KillLock]

Obviously we all play match-ups differently but I have a hard time believing Corrin, DDD or Dr.Mario are characters Marth loses to; in fact I think Marth goes even if not slighty in favor vs Corrin.

DDD and Dr.Mario definitely lose the MU as they have an exploitable neutral and can be edgeguarded effectively. Yes they have projectiles but Marth's mobility, good startup and coverage forces them to play on your terms for most if not all of the game. If you ledgeguard well they will typically have a very hard time getting anything going.

Marth is equipped with all of the speed, tools and traps he needs to force your opponent to play cautiously for the entire round. I don't believe Marth inherently loses any MU and very much so has the ability to win, am I the only one who feels this way?

Link also loses to Marth like in previous installments but he is definitely dangerous.

 

[DariusM27]

I do think Corrin wins vs Marth, but that's just my view, can't really prove it. Both are very strong, fast, characters - but I think Corrin is safer so he can play a safer neutral. Could be wrong I guess.

I agree that Doc and Ddd may lose to Marth, but many other Marths said that they struggle vs Ddd, I asked on here like last week.

Oh and here's the nair1 'gimmick' KOing a wiffed Sheik grab...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T3uxy8KNGeo&t=0m24s
And a wiffed Zss grab I baited out...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg11SxUl0-A&t=0m22s

Maybe hold off a bit before you start making disses about setups you apparently don't really know are good. (situationally) :/

 

[Bowserboy3]

To be fair, I respect the fact that Nair 1 is a good setup, but I often think "why bother", when it's often quite obvious you're going for it? Sure, it's going to be good for those laggy grabs or smash attacks, but it did sound like you are overplaying it a fair bit. It's not as simple as actively looking to land Nair in neutral to land that early Fsmash tipper. In the examples you showed above, yes, it was arguably one of the best options (though I do wonder if the Nair 1 would have even been necessary in the ZSS example, as a Tipper Fsmash would have been just enough, but I digress), but how you were playing it up earlier, it was almost as if you could do it whenever with ease, and it's certainly not that simple.

It’s a solid setup, but it’s best suited for those laggy punishes, like those examples you shared. I can more than see Shaya’s point of view here though, when the option of Jab 1 is mentioned; Jab 1 is far easier and safer to use/throw out, and gets more reliable follow ups (though you can argue that the Nair 1 -> Fsmash is more rewarding, there’s that too). What’s more, you so do still have to be a specific distance away when landing the Nair 1, otherwise the Fsmash won’t tip – eg: if you’re too close/land the sourspot, this isn’t going to work. Another thing, you could argue that this works because players don’t know about it, similar to how you say that Marth rides off of people not knowing the MU (I disagree, but this is just an example). I am positive you can quite easily DI away to try and avoid it. If players actually know this, it becomes less threatening. Sure, you can say to that “I can dash forward and stutter step Fsmash to cover this option”, but when you add options like this into the equation, it becomes less real, and yes, becomes more a “fluffy” option, especially when you consider it's overall usability isn't exactly easy. It's not like it's a guaranteed confirm 100% of the time; you have to have everything on point/the opponent to be unfamiliar with it for it to reliably work.

It does of course benefit from SHAD too, so it does have that I suppose. In the ZSS example you posted, you could have easily just SHAD'd and Nair'd, and that would have worked too (just some friendly critique for you, though I'm sure you already know this already ).

I don't think it will be something that will catch on, but it's still a solid option nonetheless. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong though, if it does catch on.

---

Marth is equipped with all of the speed, tools and traps he needs to force your opponent to play cautiously for the entire round. I don't believe Marth inherently loses any MU and very much so has the ability to win, am I the only one who feels this way?

This is an interesting quote, and to be fair, I can somewhat see your point. Sure, there are characters like Sheik, or Sonic that can make life for Marth hard, but what stays the same in every MU is his fantastic Jab 1, for example, and the fact that he can quite easily swing the match in his favour at any point. I still feel there are a select few of MU's that Marth struggles in, and "loses", so to speak, but you are right in the fact that Marth's tools and traps stay the same in every MU, so that's not actually such an absurd statement, and I can see your reasoning.

 

[Vipermoon]

The large characters intrigue me. Ganondorf loses but I have a feeling DDD, Bowser, DK, and Charizard may be mostly even MUs. Does anyone else think this? There still isn't that much footage of these guys vs. Marth. Maybe I'm just not good against these big guys.

So beside Mr E and Leo, where are these results coming from?
I personally attribute those wins to the players, and concede that Marth is high tier, but I do not think he is top tier.

You're calling Marth high tier here and now. I want to point out your MU spread and characters-he's-worse-than-spread represent that of a low tier character.

 

[Bowserboy3]

In regards to the heavies, I do agree that they are, shall I put it, harder than they should be. What I think doesn't help though in comparison to past games, is that the heavies are just heavier, putting more emphasis on landing the tipper.

I feel characters like Bowser, DDD and Charizard aren't bad in the slightest, but their overall weight and survivability can really make it a pain trying to KO them, by which point they are likely nearing max rage and can KO you at 90%. DK is one I would say legitimately gives Marth some trouble though, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Vipermoon]

If I were to pick our toughest heavies, I'd say DK then Charizard.

 

[DariusM27]

You're calling Marth high tier here and now. I want to point out your MU spread and characters-he's-worse-than-spread represent that of a low tier character.

I begrudgingly said high tier, but if I'm being completely honest, I think Marth is no higher tier than Ike - who is now mid tier according to most.
Ike has many wins too, over many big names.
Our recovery is probably better but Ike has an actual grab game and hoo ha's.
Marth dies earlier than Ike does.
Last year Ike was high tier and Marth was bottom mid ish.
Then Marth jumped to top and Ike dropped to mid.
Well, I think the characters are about even, personally, considering how just about all projectiles and certain top tiers (Sanic Ryu) reek havok on Marth and Ike.

I think Marth is top of Mid tier, and his results lately are due to player skill. :/

But I agree it's subjective and just my opinion, and I probably haven't laid down a compelling argument, not really trying to. Just sharing my view. I love Marth, love using him, but I think his game is an uphill battle.

Like, Mr E's recent tourny, he beat Tweek and Pink Fresh...but to be completely honest he barely scraped by and they made HUUGE mistakes, and he played out of his mind.

Tweek definitely would have won without that huge choke. Same for Pink Fresh. It certainly wasn't evenly matched, imo

 

[Bowserboy3]

I love Marth, love using him, but I think his game is an uphill battle.

Like, Mr E's recent tourny, he beat Tweek and Pink Fresh...but to be completely honest he barely scraped by and they made HUUGE mistakes, and he played out of his mind.

With all due respect, if you think Marth's game is an "uphill battle" as of now, then you are probably doing something wrong. Maybe in a select few MU's, yes, but on the whole, Marth has enough tools to get freely into most MU's.

Also of note, a mid tier doesn't just show up at tournament and defeat top tiers like Cloud and Bayonetta, consistently mind. Perhaps the reason it looked so close and "scraped by" was because the characters are actually a lot closer in viability? If Marth really was a mid tier, he'd likely be playing an "uphill battle" against them, but he wasn't.

But yes, this is your opinion, so don't worry, I'm just sharing mine

---

If I were to pick our toughest heavies, I'd say DK then Charizard.

I would say that DK is the only one we really have a real chance at losing, and I would rank them as...

DK > Charizard > DDD > Bowser > Ganondorf.

The other "heavyweights" like Bowser Jr, Samus, Ike, Wario etc are far less difficult to deal with in my experience; in short, they aren't heavy enough to make a noticeable effect like the others. Though Wario can be annoying in a different fashion, if he decides to play the annoying campy game by avoiding and jumping off of the Wario Bike etc (though I still think Marth has enough to beat Wario consistently).

 

[DariusM27]

That's odd. I believe I've played some good DK, and haven't had much trouble.
I can go even vs a good Zard, but the MU is in our favor.
GOOD Ganons are scary, (so agrees ZeRo)
The MU is way in our favor vs Browser
And I also am total butt vs Ddd. I think a very good Ddd can beat equal skilled Marth, but I'll change my mind if I see enough matches of just that.

Yeah, maybe I am exaggerating a few MUs. I do think Samus is better than most give her credit for though.

 

[Ekans647]

I would say that DK is the only one we really have a real chance at losing, and I would rank them as...

DK > Charizard > DDD > Bowser > Ganondorf.

The other "heavyweights" like Bowser Jr, Samus, Ike, Wario etc are far less difficult to deal with in my experience; in short, they aren't heavy enough to make a noticeable effect like the others. Though Wario can be annoying in a different fashion, if he decides to play the annoying campy game by avoiding and jumping off of the Wario Bike etc (though I still think Marth has enough to beat Wario consistently).

I always struggle against Charizard. I feel I should the MU advantage, but I lose most of the time. What advantages and weakness does Marth have in this MU, and how this MU be played?

 

[Doomblaze]

Is there anything special about the charizard matchup? I have a sword and he doesn't so life is difficult for him. I hate his jab but he has a lot of trouble getting into range and juggling him is really easy. His recovery is poor and so are his ledge options.

I can't say I have much experience in the matchup though so feel free to enlighten me, the charizards I've played against are all pretty bad with him

 

[A_Kae]

Hurtbox and special move parameters from fighter_param_vl_marth.bin. I couldn't find this data publicly available (at least, when I was looking at this stuff a few months ago) so here it is:

Spoiler: Hurtbox Data

Hurbox|X|Y|Z|StretchX|StretchY|StretchZ|Size|Bone|Unknown|Unknown|Unknown|Unknown
Chest|0.5|-0.3|0|2|-0.3|0|2.5|C|0|1|0|2
Head|0.5|0|0|0.7|0|0|1.6|13|0|2|0|2
Right Arm|0|0|0|2.9|0|0|1.15|16|1|1|0|2
Left Arm|0|0|0|2.5|0|0|1.15|10|1|1|0|2
Right Upper Leg|0|0|0|3|0|0|1.5|8|3|0|0|2
Left Upper Leg|0|0|0|3|0|0|1.5|4|3|0|0|2
Right Lower Leg|0|0|0|5|0|0|1.5|9|3|0|0|2
Left Lower Leg|0|0|0|5|0|0|1.5|5|3|0|0|2

I have an in-game visualization of these working but no way of getting an image of it right now, unfortunately. EDIT: No I actually do have a way!

Spoiler: Neutral Special Parameters

Move|Charge Time|Charge Max Multiplier|Air H. Momentum Multiplier|Air Deceleration|Charge Animation Speed
Shield Breaker|60|2.2|0.8|0.02|1
Storm Thrust|60|2.2|0.8|0.02|1
Dashing Assault|66|2|0.8|0.02|1

Spoiler: Side Special Parameters

Move|Air H. Momentum Multiplier|Air V. Boost Modifier|Enable/Disable Up/Down Variations
Dancing Blade|0.5|1.4|1
Effortless Blade|0.5|1.4|0
Heavy Blade|0.5|1.4|1

Spoiler: Up Special Parameters

Move|Air Speed|Landing Recovery|Control Stick Sensitivity for angling|Angling Max Distance|Air H. Momentum Multiplier|Air Height Multiplier|Gravity|Fall Speed|Ground Height Multiplier
Dolphin Slash|0.4|19|0.5|20|0.6666|1.1|0.06|1.8|1
Crescent Slash|1|33|0.5|5|0.6666|1.1|0.12|1.58|1
Dolphin Jump|0.4|39|0.5|20|0.6666|1.1|0.06|1.8|1

Spoiler: Down Special Parameters

Move|Air H Momentum Multiplier|Air Friction|Gravity|Fall Speed|Counter Multiplier|Activation Freeze Frames|Min Damage|Max Damage|Unknown|Bone|X|Y|Z|Size|Counter Animation Speed
Counter|0.5|0.0025|0.04|1.2|1.2|16|8|50|80|0|0|9.3|0|9.2|1
Easy Counter|0.45|0.003|0.025|1.1|0.7|16|4|50|80|0|0|9.3|0|9.2|1
Iai Counter|0.5|0.0025|0.4|1.2|1.3|5|6|50|80|0|0|9.3|0|9.2|1

The unknown parameter is 50 for Lucina, and doesn't seem to do anything as far as I can tell for either character.

Hopefully some of that will be useful or interesting at least to someone.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hurtbox and special move parameters from fighter_param_vl_marth.bin. I couldn't find this data publicly available (at least, when I was looking at this stuff a few months ago) so here it is:

Spoiler: Hurtbox Data

Hurbox|X|Y|Z|StretchX|StretchY|StretchZ|Size|Bone|Unknown|Unknown|Unknown|Unknown
Chest|0.5|-0.3|0|2|-0.3|0|2.5|C|0|1|0|2
Head|0.5|0|0|0.7|0|0|1.6|13|0|2|0|2
Right Arm|0|0|0|2.9|0|0|1.15|16|1|1|0|2
Left Arm|0|0|0|2.5|0|0|1.15|10|1|1|0|2
Right Upper Leg|0|0|0|3|0|0|1.5|8|3|0|0|2
Left Upper Leg|0|0|0|3|0|0|1.5|4|3|0|0|2
Right Lower Leg|0|0|0|5|0|0|1.5|9|3|0|0|2
Left Lower Leg|0|0|0|5|0|0|1.5|5|3|0|0|2

I have an in-game visualization of these working but no way of getting an image of it right now, unfortunately. EDIT: No I actually do have a way!

Spoiler: Neutral Special Parameters

Move|Charge Time|Charge Max Multiplier|Air H. Momentum Multiplier|Air Deceleration|Charge Animation Speed
Shield Breaker|60|2.2|0.8|0.02|1
Storm Thrust|60|2.2|0.8|0.02|1
Dashing Assault|66|2|0.8|0.02|1

Spoiler: Side Special Parameters

Move|Air H. Momentum Multiplier|Air V. Boost Modifier|Enable/Disable Up/Down Variations
Dancing Blade|0.5|1.4|1
Effortless Blade|0.5|1.4|0
Heavy Blade|0.5|1.4|1

Spoiler: Up Special Parameters

Move|Air Speed|Landing Recovery|Control Stick Sensitivity for angling|Angling Max Distance|Air H. Momentum Multiplier|Air Height Multiplier|Gravity|Fall Speed|Ground Height Multiplier
Dolphin Slash|0.4|19|0.5|20|0.6666|1.1|0.06|1.8|1
Crescent Slash|1|33|0.5|5|0.6666|1.1|0.12|1.58|1
Dolphin Jump|0.4|39|0.5|20|0.6666|1.1|0.06|1.8|1

Spoiler: Down Special Parameters

Move|Air H Momentum Multiplier|Air Friction|Gravity|Fall Speed|Counter Multiplier|Activation Freeze Frames|Min Damage|Max Damage|Unknown|Bone|X|Y|Z|Size|Counter Animation Speed
Counter|0.5|0.0025|0.04|1.2|1.2|16|8|50|80|0|0|9.3|0|9.2|1
Easy Counter|0.45|0.003|0.025|1.1|0.7|16|4|50|80|0|0|9.3|0|9.2|1
Iai Counter|0.5|0.0025|0.4|1.2|1.3|5|6|50|80|0|0|9.3|0|9.2|1

The unknown parameter is 50 for Lucina, and doesn't seem to do anything as far as I can tell for either character.

Hopefully some of that will be useful or interesting at least to someone.

This is awesome! Thank you. I definitely wanted to know a lot of this stuff.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just a shame I have no idea what any of this means... I hope that we can see visualisations soon!

 

[A_Kae]

Looking back at them, the labels probably aren't clear enough, are they? I can type up something more descriptive if you want. When I was writing the labels for this stuff, I was doing it already knowing what they did (and also trying to fit them into a small text box at the same time), so they probably ended up not easily understandable if you don't already know them.

Here are some hurtbox visualization screenshots. They're made with the same method as most in-game hitbox visuals that you might have seen, i.e. using the shield bubble graphic.

I don't have a way of capturing good-quality video (not phone camera quality, that is), so that's why I'm just doing screenshots. If there's any specific animation or frame of animation you want a visual of I can get that.

Spoiler

The first image is just of standing hurtboxes from a front and back view, the second is of the 'punch' that Marth does in the startup of dtilt and how it pointlessly extends his hurtbox, and the third is of the counter activation bubble in the air, with blue hurtboxes since the yellow ones looked really bad there.

Edit: Should also be mentioned that there's always a possibility of errors with this kind of thing. I don't think there is one, but there always could be. Just keep that in mind.

 

[Vipermoon]

A_Kae Yeah see that Counter and that dumb unprotected ankle (Achilles heel)? I am surprised at how freakin often I get hit there out of Counter. I would wish for it to go away but it's been there since Melee and I'm a tradition kind of guy.

So as far as the Specials data goes that you just posted. Can you just define what each Air_X_Momentum/Multiplier/Modifier is please? Just so there's no guessing.

 

[A_Kae]

A_Kae Yeah see that Counter and that dumb unprotected ankle (Achilles heel)? I am surprised at how freakin often I get hit there out of Counter. I would wish for it to go away but it's been there since Melee and I'm a tradition kind of guy.

So as far as the Specials data goes that you just posted. Can you just define what each Air_X_Momentum/Multiplier/Modifier is please? Just so there's no guessing.

It seems like such a small spot, doesn't it? But then you get hit out of your counter edgeguard by Ness and suddenly it feels way bigger! Kind of surprising how often that sort of thing can happen. But I think it's something that should be fixed/not exist anymore. There's no reason for it to be a thing and it just ends up being something that makes counter fail occasionally. Tradition is fine and all and I get where you're coming from but this is just a move not working properly and it not working properly before isn't a good justification IMO.

It'd be so simple to fix, too.

So, the multipliers and stuff.

Charge Max Multiplier is the maximum damage multiplier for a charged SB that isn't a full charge. The multiplier scales from 1 to 2.2 (or 2 for DA) over the course of the charge time. So if you release SB just before it transitions to the full charge state, it'll do 17.6/19.8 (blade/tip) damage.
Air H. Momentum multiplier is a multiplier on Marth's aerial horizontal momentum. 1 is no change, greater than 1 is increased, less than 1 is decreased. I'm not sure if it's a straight multiplier, (as in, if you are moving at a speed of 1.02 and are affected by a modifier of 0.5, I'm not sure if that speed is cut to 0.51) but I would assume it is. Also, dolphin slash's works strangely. It seems to cap out at a fairly low value. If you set SB or counter's multiplier to something like 10.5 instead your horizontal momentum is increased super high (of course), But DS seems to have some sort of maximum for the value and also just cuts your momentum regardless of what the multiplier is once the actual rising part of the move starts.
Charge animation speed and counter animation speed are multipliers on how fast the charge frames or active frames of a neutral special or down special play. 0.5 is half speed and 2 is double speed. But since they're all 1 in all cases, it doesn't matter much at all.
Air V. Boost Modifier is the vertical boost you get from using dancing blade in the air. I don't remember the specifics on how this works exactly beyond higher number = higher boost. I'll check it again if you want.
Air and ground height multipliers for up specials just multiply how high you go from using them. So aerial DS goes 1.1x as high as it would without the modifier. But this is another one that isn't very important, it's just the way the move works.

I think that's everything.

But you wouldn't happen to have any idea what the unknown param on counters could be, would you? It's probably just junk data that doesn't do anything, but I feel like there might be something I'm overlooking here. The fact that it's 80 on Marth but 50 on Lucina just makes me think that there's something it does. Just something I haven't been able to figure out yet.

 

[Vipermoon]

It seems like such a small spot, doesn't it? But then you get hit out of your counter edgeguard by Ness and suddenly it feels way bigger! Kind of surprising how often that sort of thing can happen. But I think it's something that should be fixed/not exist anymore. There's no reason for it to be a thing and it just ends up being something that makes counter fail occasionally. Tradition is fine and all and I get where you're coming from but this is just a move not working properly and it not working properly before isn't a good justification IMO.

It'd be so simple to fix, too.

So, the multipliers and stuff.

Charge Max Multiplier is the maximum damage multiplier for a charged SB that isn't a full charge. The multiplier scales from 1 to 2.2 (or 2 for DA) over the course of the charge time. So if you release SB just before it transitions to the full charge state, it'll do 17.6/19.8 (blade/tip) damage.
Air H. Momentum multiplier is a multiplier on Marth's aerial horizontal momentum. 1 is no change, greater than 1 is increased, less than 1 is decreased. I'm not sure if it's a straight multiplier, (as in, if you are moving at a speed of 1.02 and are affected by a modifier of 0.5, I'm not sure if that speed is cut to 0.51) but I would assume it is. Also, dolphin slash's works strangely. It seems to cap out at a fairly low value. If you set SB or counter's multiplier to something like 10.5 instead your horizontal momentum is increased super high (of course), But DS seems to have some sort of maximum for the value and also just cuts your momentum regardless of what the multiplier is once the actual rising part of the move starts.
Charge animation speed and counter animation speed are multipliers on how fast the charge frames or active frames of a neutral special or down special play. 0.5 is half speed and 2 is double speed. But since they're all 1 in all cases, it doesn't matter much at all.
Air V. Boost Modifier is the vertical boost you get from using dancing blade in the air. I don't remember the specifics on how this works exactly beyond higher number = higher boost. I'll check it again if you want.
Air and ground height multipliers for up specials just multiply how high you go from using them. So aerial DS goes 1.1x as high as it would without the modifier. But this is another one that isn't very important, it's just the way the move works.

I think that's everything.

But you wouldn't happen to have any idea what the unknown param on counters could be, would you? It's probably just junk data that doesn't do anything, but I feel like there might be something I'm overlooking here. The fact that it's 80 on Marth but 50 on Lucina just makes me think that there's something it does. Just something I haven't been able to figure out yet.

And if Counter was fixed, I'd thank them. But you know, it actually makes sense that spot is unguarded in a real life point of view lol.

Thank you for the explanations! So would you say grounded and aerial DS would go the same height if the height multipliers were both 1.0?

My first guess would've been that it's the Counter's block limit. Anything doing over 80 damage would go through it. But Lucina has a 50 so that can't be it. I forgot what Counter's block limit actually is now that I think about it. Edit: or does it not have one? Maybe I'm thinking about reflectors.

 

[A_Kae]

And if Counter was fixed, I'd thank them. But you know, it actually makes sense that spot is unguarded in a real life point of view lol.

Thank you for the explanations! So would you say grounded and aerial DS would go the same height if the height multipliers were both 1.0?

My first guess would've been that it's the Counter's block limit. Anything doing over 80 damage would go through it. But Lucina has a 50 so that can't be it. I forgot what Counter's block limit actually is now that I think about it. Edit: or does it not have one? Maybe I'm thinking about reflectors.

I guess you've got a point there, yeah. It does make some real-life sense to have unguarded feet. That's got me thinking that it might be neat or interesting to have a counter explicitly designed to lose to low attacks. but if we really want to go with real-life stuff here we shouldn't be able to counter a lot of moves. like samus' missiles. i think trying to parry a missile just might not work well in reality lol.

Yep, same height if they both have 1.0. Or about the same height. It's hard to tell if they're exactly the same, but it's close enough that I'll just say they'd be the same.

That was actually my first thought too, but Marth can counter things that do 500% just fine. So it probably doesn't have any block limit. Certainly not one that matters ever. I think it's just reflectors (+absorbers?) that have those.

Well, I'm just going to assume it does nothing important or relevant and just let it stay unknown.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, 0x50/0x80 could perhaps be the ID for the sound to play (or subroutine of possible sounds) upon activation.
Seeing as the only notable difference in counters is Lucina gets to say stuff, and it is a random selection of voice clips (compared to game script files which I believe are static sounds for animation sequences).

Did you (or were you able to) alter the number to see the results?
First step in any experiment lol.

 

[A_Kae]

Hmm, 0x50/0x80 could perhaps be the ID for the sound to play (or subroutine of possible sounds) upon activation.
Seeing as the only notable difference in counters is Lucina gets to say stuff, and it is a random selection of voice clips (compared to game script files which I believe are static sounds for animation sequences).

Did you (or were you able to) alter the number to see the results?
First step in any experiment lol.

I was able to change the number, yes (and did, to several different values), but I never thought to check the sound stuff (I usually had my headphones off when I was testing this stuff). I'm going to check that right now.

Although I would think it would be handled in the script files for the counters. The voice clips for normal moves like fair is there, isn't it? And that's a random sound.

Edit: Nope, doesn't look like it's anything sound related.

 

[Bowserboy3]

If there's any specific animation or frame of animation you want a visual of I can get that.

This might sound like a lot of work, but would it be possible to get some sort of frame from each of his moves? Like, any sort of frame where a hitbox is out at the same time (like, say frame 8 of Up Tilt, frame 7 of Forward Air, frame 12 of Forward Smash, just as examples). If that's going to be a bit of a hassle, could you perhaps do just those examples, along with Neutral Air, Up Air, Down Tilt and Forward Tilt? Those are the ones I am most interested in (again, sorry for the hassle - sometimes I wish I was knowledgeable to just help out myself).

I'm really impressed with these; great work! IIRC, I don't think anybody has managed to share hurtbox images before (correct me if I'm wrong), so well done! I'm excited to see what else you'll be able to share.

 

[A_Kae]

This might sound like a lot of work, but would it be possible to get some sort of frame from each of his moves? Like, any sort of frame where a hitbox is out at the same time (like, say frame 8 of Up Tilt, frame 7 of Forward Air, frame 12 of Forward Smash, just as examples). If that's going to be a bit of a hassle, could you perhaps do just those examples, along with Neutral Air, Up Air, Down Tilt and Forward Tilt? Those are the ones I am most interested in (again, sorry for the hassle - sometimes I wish I was knowledgeable to just help out myself).

I'm really impressed with these; great work! IIRC, I don't think anybody has managed to share hurtbox images before (correct me if I'm wrong), so well done! I'm excited to see what else you'll be able to share.

Totally possible and I'll get images of those sometime soon. Probably tomorrow since it's getting late at night here and I need sleep.

I swear I saw an in-game hurtbox visualization like mine a while ago but I can't seem to find it right now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Totally possible and I'll get images of those sometime soon. Probably tomorrow since it's getting late at night here and I need sleep.

I swear I saw an in-game hurtbox visualization like mine a while ago but I can't seem to find it right now.

Thanks, I appreciate that. Don't rush, just whenever you can (wish I could sleep right about now though... jealous).

Until somebody proves otherwise, lets just say you're the first to share this kind of data. Give yourself some bragging rights!

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't think anybody has managed to share hurtbox images before (correct me if I'm wrong)

I swear I saw an in-game hurtbox visualization like mine a while ago but I can't seem to find it right now.

Until somebody proves otherwise, lets just say you're the first to share this kind of data. Give yourself some bragging rights!

Hey guys...

 

[Phenomiracle]

Hi guys! Picked up Marth about a month ago.

Would you say it's better to play with him on C-stick set to attack or smash?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Hi guys! Picked up Marth about a month ago.

Would you say it's better to play with him on C-stick set to attack or smash?

Attack - this is coming from a guy who was VERY reluctant to switch from smash stick (it was actually a lot of you guys here who convinced me to try it, though it was quite a while back, and I haven't looked back since - thanks!).

Essentially, what I found when switching from smash stick to attack stick, was that my overall neutral became better; it became far easier to space my moves, and to actually do the moves needed with a lot more ease. What's more, the temptation to throw out a random smash attack generally goes out of the window (this is one thing you aught to be careful of playing as Marth, as you will get punished for throwing them out carelessly).

It might not seem like a big deal, but with attack stick not halting aerial movement briefly like smash stick does, it does indeed become a fair bit easier to space with your aerials if you use the c-stick.

I can't see a real reason why you'd need to use smash stick with Marth. Like, with ZSS for example, having easy access to her Down Smash is quite helpful, but with Marth, there isn't anything major like that. You generally get more out of attack stick, especially when you think of the things that become easier and more possible when you combine perfect pivots (one of my personal favourites is a foxtrot, into a perfect pivot Dtilt - pretty good at catching opponents who like to chase after you).

---
Vipermoon - well rip me. But wow, the colours make it hard to actually see everything in that video. A_Kae 's images are a lot nicer on the eyes, and easier to actually see.

 

[Vipermoon]

A_Kae It surprises sometimes how Marth Fsmash's startup retracts his hurtbox. Whatever frame retracts it the most, can we please see that?

 

[A_Kae]

A_Kae It surprises sometimes how Marth Fsmash's startup retracts his hurtbox. Whatever frame retracts it the most, can we please see that?

Here's a gif of frames 1-12 of fsmash.

Spoiler: Facing Right

Spoiler: Facing Left

Frames 1-12 only (+a "frame 0" that's a frame of standing animation) because my method for this takes a while and I wanted to get some feedback on it before going through a bunch of frames and moves.

Anyways, it looks like frame 4 would be the one farthest back.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Here's a gif of frames 1-12 of fsmash.

Spoiler: Facing Right

View attachment 119299

Spoiler: Facing Left

View attachment 119298

Frames 1-12 only (+a "frame 0" that's a frame of standing animation) because my method for this takes a while and I wanted to get some feedback on it before going through a bunch of frames and moves.

Anyways, it looks like frame 4 would be the one farthest back.

Wow, those look great! These remind me of the Melee hitbox visualisations.

 

[Vipermoon]

Here's a gif of frames 1-12 of fsmash.

Frames 1-12 only (+a "frame 0" that's a frame of standing animation) because my method for this takes a while and I wanted to get some feedback on it before going through a bunch of frames and moves.

Anyways, it looks like frame 4 would be the one farthest back.

Thanks. This doesn't look like much hurtbox reduction. Is he moving back but it just doesn't show because of this method? For example, if you showed us a GIF of Marth running or using Dancing Blade, would he be running/attacking in-place or would he move off the screen?

 

[A_Kae]

Thanks. This doesn't look like much hurtbox reduction. Is he moving back but it just doesn't show because of this method? For example, if you showed us a GIF of Marth running or using Dancing Blade, would he be running/attacking in-place or would he move off the screen?

It would like like he's running in place. Which is a bit of a problem I didn't consider before. Because of how I made those, (by taking individual screenshots of each frame) the camera is re-centered on Marth on every frame, so movement wouldn't show.

I'll have to see if I can get the camera to focus on a part of the stage instead of on Marth.

Edit: OK, I think I have my camera hack working

Edit 2: Here's a gif of Dancing Blade 1 with the fixed camera (plus a new much faster process for getting the images):

Spoiler

Unfortunately, I had to lower the image quality to be able to upload it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I still think the hitboxes should come out at least a frame sooner on Dancing Blade 1...

A_Kae , looks good! Even if the quality had to be lowered, it still looks very good (to be honest, if you didn't mention that, nobody would have noticed ).

I tell you what would be EVEN better, though, just as a suggestion; have you seen Furil's later hitbox visualisations? They have like play, pause, skip buttons in the corner. They might be worth thinking about adding.

Then again, this is me saying this, and I have no idea if it will cause more work, so just ignore me is it causes more work; what you're doing now is already fantastic.

 

[A_Kae]

I still think the hitboxes should come out at least a frame sooner on Dancing Blade 1...

A_Kae , looks good! Even if the quality had to be lowered, it still looks very good (to be honest, if you didn't mention that, nobody would have noticed ).

I tell you what would be EVEN better, though, just as a suggestion; have you seen Furil's later hitbox visualisations? They have like play, pause, skip buttons in the corner. They might be worth thinking about adding.

Then again, this is me saying this, and I have no idea if it will cause more work, so just ignore me is it causes more work; what you're doing now is already fantastic.

That's a good idea!

Spoiler: quick test

Edit: Seems like it's working. And with no quality reduction too!

 

[Bowserboy3]

That's a good idea!

Spoiler: quick test

Edit: Seems like it's working. And with no quality reduction too!

F***ing sweet! You are doing an amazing job with these!

Can't wait to see what else you can share.

You know, it might even be a good idea to start a separate threat if you're going to do many more, and store them all there. I bet lots of people would appreciate an easy place to find them.

---
That GIF though apparently shows that Marth's shoulders don't have hurtboxes... lol (see frame 4).

It doesn't really matter either way though; it would be extremely rare for any move to actually strike in that area anyway, so it almost makes no difference.

 

[A_Kae]

F***ing sweet! You are doing an amazing job with these!

Can't wait to see what else you can share.

You know, it might even be a good idea to start a separate threat if you're going to do many more, and store them all there. I bet lots of people would appreciate an easy place to find them.

---
That GIF though apparently shows that Marth's shoulders don't have hurtboxes... lol (see frame 4).

It doesn't really matter either way though; it would be extremely rare for any move to actually strike in that area anyway, so it almost makes no difference.

Making a thread for these was actually my plan. I'm just posting them here for now while I'm still refining the gifs.

No shoulder hurtboxes is actually how it's supposed to be. For whatever reason his arm hurtboxes only cover his elbow to his hand in this game.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Making a thread for these was actually my plan. I'm just posting them here for now while I'm still refining the gifs.

No shoulder hurtboxes is actually how it's supposed to be. For whatever reason his arm hurtboxes only cover his elbow to his hand in this game.

That's cool!

And yeah, I thought that would be the case. Strange in a way, really, but it shouldn't make much of a difference in game.

 

[A_Kae]

Fsmash gif with the fixed camera for you, Vipermoon.

Spoiler

Fun fact: That has more than 5 times the number of frames as the first fsmash gif (13 in the original to 70 in the new one), but took only about a tenth the time to make!

Unless anyone has more suggestions for improvements, I think that's going to be the final format for these.