Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Exactly where were you standing?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
EnGarde
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2014
- Messages
- 654
- 3DS FC
- 4914-3671-9440
Near the ledge, the spacing wasn't super specific.
Comet7
Smash Lord
Is f smash an option dfor hitting people out of 2 frame vulnerability?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
It is. I rarely get it for some reason.
Xisin
Smash Ace
Vipermoon exaggerates the difficulty of the cloud mu. it is no worse than 4/6 against us. I still think it's closer to even than what most marths want to think it is.
Last edited:
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
That's not a surprise... The move lasts four frames total, and the hitboxes start relatively early on the swing. Knowing SSB4 there's probably like one frame it hits low enough, and two frames where the opponent is vulnerable. If it were two frames where it hit low enough, well, even I can land a move like that fairly consistently. That'd be a four frame window.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Both frame 12 and 13 are when the sword is on the ground, thought I believe 13 is barely lower than 12. They probably both technically reach but the hitboxes are size 3.5 which is small.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
F13 is probably flat against the ground while f12 is probably slightly slanted but still close. Might make a difference if you stand closer. Which is exactly not what Marth wants to do.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Yeah I'm on mobile so I can't check the Melee frame by frame files saved on my PC that I like to rely on
Edit: Nah, it moves maybe a pixel.
Last edited:
Spc2799
Smash Cadet
Couldn't agree more. I absolutely abhor playing against Cloud. i've considered putting a bit more time into my secondary, Robin, but too many of Robins projectiles clink or lose out to clouds blade beam for it to be worth looking into the MU. Honestly i think that i just need to work the matchups by picking up more characters but i feel like spreading myself too thin would be a bad choice.
ugh i guess i should just learn the matchup for Marth and Robin but honestly i feel like a scrubby Cloud could body my Marth if he frustrated me enough. My fundamentals still need work for sure and that's the one thing i'm proud to say shows steady improvement all the time.
Last edited:
If it wasn't for limit cross slash ensuring a situation in which if both marth and cloud are 100%, Marth is near completely ****ed [because all of Marth's commitments are too committal to play around it generally].
Brawl mindset wise, to overcome the match up involves really being amazing at dealing with Cloud in limit. And I will say that this is more than achievable - considering how top tier Cloud is, it will be just as essential as all the various stupidly good and difficult to avoid things you just... had to avoid in Brawl or you sucked.
It's not just cross slash though... down throw up air in limit works on us almost up until kill percent.
And Cloud definitely doesn't outright like that our fair exists, nor is he a huge fan of down tilt.
But his dash attack is also sooooo goood at breaking through whatever movements we make with something really quite rewarding.
I think 6-4 is kinda-ish accurate at this time to speculate the match up as.
At the very least it's not 'worse' than that during most phases of a game.
Brawl mindset wise, to overcome the match up involves really being amazing at dealing with Cloud in limit. And I will say that this is more than achievable - considering how top tier Cloud is, it will be just as essential as all the various stupidly good and difficult to avoid things you just... had to avoid in Brawl or you sucked.
It's not just cross slash though... down throw up air in limit works on us almost up until kill percent.
And Cloud definitely doesn't outright like that our fair exists, nor is he a huge fan of down tilt.
But his dash attack is also sooooo goood at breaking through whatever movements we make with something really quite rewarding.
I think 6-4 is kinda-ish accurate at this time to speculate the match up as.
At the very least it's not 'worse' than that during most phases of a game.
Last edited:
Nike.
Smash Hero
New patch out boizzzzz
FallenHero
Smash Ace
Damn I thought we wouldn't get another one for at least another 2-3 months. Hope Marth got buffed!
DariusM27
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 5, 2015
- Messages
- 518
What about his fastfall speed? Seem the same to you?
Also grab range?
Meh, scratch that, doesn't look that way I guess.
Last edited:
Spc2799
Smash Cadet
*wakes up and checks twitter* "Mother of God..." this was totally out of left field for me. i hope that they made some good changes this patch. i apologize for implying that there weren't going to be any more patches for smash 4 previously as that was obviously proven wrong tonight. I'm really looking forward to seeing what they've done. rooting for some other characters to get buffed like we did. (really rooting for Jigs and other under buffed chars). THIS IS SO HYPE.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Now you're getting it! (fast falls are always 60% faster than normal falls unless you're Ryu or Link btw)
https://mobile.twitter.com/SammiHusky/status/709957909648642048
It's confirmed that this list plus Samus, Sheik, ZSS, and Zelda (list got cut off at end of alphabet) received changes. Go to sleep, nothing to see here in Aritia
Wow marth didn't get any buffs.
Confirmed worst character in the game again :<
His match ups with Sheik, ZSS and Cloud would get ever so slightly better from this patch though.
yay.
Confirmed worst character in the game again :<
His match ups with Sheik, ZSS and Cloud would get ever so slightly better from this patch though.
yay.
Last edited:
Marth not getting buffed doesn't surprise me. TBH I'm still recovering from the buffs he got last patch lol. Here's my thoughts on the MU's with the characters that got nerfed.
MK's and ZSS's crazy good vertical KO confirms got nerfed so our MU's with them are probably a lot better. IMO we beat both of them in the neutral but it was their crazy punish games that made the MU's really bad for us. Vertical combos work really well against Marth thanks to Dair coming out frame 9 and up special and up air not hitting below us. Depending on how hard the nerfs hit them we might actually go even with or straight up beat MK and have a 55/45 MU with ZSS. Just gonna repeat myself and say that it all depends on how hard the nerfs hit them.
As for Cloud I think we barely lost that MU thanks to his insane damage output and LB shenanigans. Both of them getting nerfed is good for us so I'm pretty sure we go even with Cloud now. MU wasn't too bad before (IMO) and most def got better since almost his entire toolkit got nerfed.
Corrin MU is probably even or our favor. Her damage output was really good and her up air was a great KO move. Both getting nerfed is good news. Her Side B was crazy good in the Marth MU (completely safe) so it not being touched isn't good for us. Her mobility was bad before so I have no idea why it was nerfed.
Sheik is still sheik, we didn't lose that MU because of her crazy good punish game off of throws but rather her ability to force our approach and stuff it so well along with covering all of our options with her ability to place hitboxes wherever she wanted. If her recovery got nerfed we'd have a much better MU with her but alas it remains untouched. Oh well.
Bayonetta is still broken IMO. No idea why they nerfed Corrin before her.
As for Samus, better FAF on her grabs, LOTS of hitbox fixes on most her moves, and better mobility (faster fall speed and air mobility) is going to really help that character in almost every MU and not just the Marth MU. Samus also got her mobility buffed which is great for Samus mains. Samus probably beats us now.
Overall a few of our worst MU's got much better (MK, ZSS), a couple of close MU's may have shifted to our favor (Cloud, Corrin), but some MU's are still really bad (Sheik, Bayonetta) and Samus might beat us. Lot's of MU's didn't change even though their characters got changed (Ganon, Palu, Zelda, Mewtwo, DH). Curious to see how the buffs helped Charizard, never really knew that MU that well so idk how the buffs will help him.
Diddy is probably our worst MU now.
MK's and ZSS's crazy good vertical KO confirms got nerfed so our MU's with them are probably a lot better. IMO we beat both of them in the neutral but it was their crazy punish games that made the MU's really bad for us. Vertical combos work really well against Marth thanks to Dair coming out frame 9 and up special and up air not hitting below us. Depending on how hard the nerfs hit them we might actually go even with or straight up beat MK and have a 55/45 MU with ZSS. Just gonna repeat myself and say that it all depends on how hard the nerfs hit them.
As for Cloud I think we barely lost that MU thanks to his insane damage output and LB shenanigans. Both of them getting nerfed is good for us so I'm pretty sure we go even with Cloud now. MU wasn't too bad before (IMO) and most def got better since almost his entire toolkit got nerfed.
Corrin MU is probably even or our favor. Her damage output was really good and her up air was a great KO move. Both getting nerfed is good news. Her Side B was crazy good in the Marth MU (completely safe) so it not being touched isn't good for us. Her mobility was bad before so I have no idea why it was nerfed.
Sheik is still sheik, we didn't lose that MU because of her crazy good punish game off of throws but rather her ability to force our approach and stuff it so well along with covering all of our options with her ability to place hitboxes wherever she wanted. If her recovery got nerfed we'd have a much better MU with her but alas it remains untouched. Oh well.
Bayonetta is still broken IMO. No idea why they nerfed Corrin before her.
As for Samus, better FAF on her grabs, LOTS of hitbox fixes on most her moves, and better mobility (faster fall speed and air mobility) is going to really help that character in almost every MU and not just the Marth MU. Samus also got her mobility buffed which is great for Samus mains. Samus probably beats us now.
Overall a few of our worst MU's got much better (MK, ZSS), a couple of close MU's may have shifted to our favor (Cloud, Corrin), but some MU's are still really bad (Sheik, Bayonetta) and Samus might beat us. Lot's of MU's didn't change even though their characters got changed (Ganon, Palu, Zelda, Mewtwo, DH). Curious to see how the buffs helped Charizard, never really knew that MU that well so idk how the buffs will help him.
Diddy is probably our worst MU now.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
I seriously have to go to sleep (so many threads and twitter updating like crazy lol) but the biggest thing I want to get out is that the changes don't affect our MUs as severely as you are saying.
H-O-G
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2014
- Messages
- 177
- NNID
- Samurai-Edge9
- 3DS FC
- 5000-3290-0193
Idk y ppl believed that the patches were going to stop. It was never stated or implied and with the release of these broken ass dlc characters there was no way that the patches would've stopped.
Plus it doesn't look like bayo got touched so I'm expecting another patch.
Plus it doesn't look like bayo got touched so I'm expecting another patch.
Last edited:
Freelance Spy
Smash Journeyman
I agree, I think that corrin was nerfed first because more people played corrin, driving up winrate. I believe that the patches are based off of data. Remember sakurai talking about why Mac was nerfed?
CanadianCourage
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2015
- Messages
- 62
Well with cloud nerfed I thunk matchup is now even, also happy that both my mains Marth and Mewtwo got buffed these last few patches. I think both are now tournament viable tbh.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Mac was nerfed even though he was the biggest loser, so that's not it.
As far as I can tell Cloud was much more popular then Corrin was online and they barely touched him. Maybe just a week or two ago I still found more Clouds then Corrins on for Glory.
Either it was some dumb form of advertising or they just didn't like how Corrin played.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Cloud was nerfed the least out of the top tiers. 1% on Uair is the biggest thing only because that makes it weaker (but still strong). Everything else is very minor doesn't matter in the MU. He gets limit just a tiny bit slower from charging but still only takes 100% to the job for him. The MU is realistically the same as it was last patch.
Last edited:
Corrin is an extremely stupid design (seriously), Cloud was just set up to be a better character than everyone else through blatant over tuning.
Freelance Spy
Smash Journeyman
Should we just switch to roy vs cloud? I'm at a loss.
PEACE7
Smash Champion
So any changes to Marth?
Huh?
No I didn't say that.
Fundamentals + spacing is still important in Marth vs Cloud, so you can win that way by being a better player.
Roy likely has it slightly worse than Marth at this stage.
The character had some of the best reach in the game.You should probably make one of your long Shaya posts for Corrin. I'd like to hear your thoughts, because while I've been completely following Corrin's development, I'm also at a loss.
PEACE7 None
With essentially 'pick of the crop' but often in some ways better versions of moves from other FE cast members.
She has an 18 frame (12 frames for the initial loops) move that kills at 80%. If you compare 'weapon size' to hitbox size of that sweet spot to Marth's you'd be shattered inside. This is before rage.
Furthermore she has a 4 or 10 frame move which also kills at around 80%. Similar stupendous hitbox disproportions as above.
Her reach is massive on just about everything and has two safe to use pokes, that also kill that also double up as burst movement.
She is the least committal character in the entire game.
Rewarded heavily for not engaging opponents like sword wielders are traditionally forced to.
And at the same time she had the harshest (or second harshest depending on situation) punishment in the game for any form of commitment.
Having the fastest dash to shield in the game (7 frames apparently) with such god amazing aerial capabilities and general range...
where was the commitment?
where was the real counter play to her?
For what was a less noticeable hit on high tiers+ and at top level play, was an overtly obnoxious nearly untouchable force for the rest of the cast to deal with.
And she was only going to get better. Which she still will continue to get better.
But being so non committal, with really good initial specs on dashes and walks, good enough to nearly always be in a HUGE REACTION WINDOW situation to retreat.
And because of this moving wall nature (and the excessively good dash to shield) she was very difficult to actually be backed into a corner / wrested stage control from.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Ah. I've heard most of these in one form or another. We haven't seen a really good Corrin yet due to time. I can see where you're going with this, it's just really hard to imagine a really oppressive character in Corrin had Corrin been a much older character.
Honestly, to me he seemed "balanced with some really overtuned crap". We're used to it in other characters already so the complaints weren't too big I guess. The dash to shield is really good. But what options does Corrin have after the shield? Bad grab and long start-up on other options (like Smashes and Nspecial) all wouldn't work so Fspecial becomes telegraphed. Movement specs weren't good and I still don't agree with those mobility nerfs because Corrin feels even clunkier. The walk is useless, the aerial acceleration is at Melee FE 0.03, jumpsquat, and so on. Uair did have some crazy kill power, even with the DI-able angle. Melee Fair and Nair to start combos and footstools. Nair was extremely good, sure. I just don't know if nerfing the damage output of Corrin's already very low damage aerials was the right way to go. I'm very surprised Fsmash and Fspecial weren't touched but Nspecial's reduced stun time fixes a lot of nasty set-ups (I'm sure they still exist to an extent though I haven't looked into it).
Okay, without rambling some more, I'm just going to say that IMO, calling Corrin's design extremely stupid is exaggeration. I will agree that Corrin was and still is (+ more clunkiness and an even lower damage output which accomplish nothing) pretty stupid.
Last edited:
FallenHero
Smash Ace
Most of the DLC characters are balanced but have some really over tuned stuff. I think Corrin, Roy, and Cloud are the biggest example of this.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Mm, IMO, Corrin was stupid to fight but still extremely beatable. It's still weird they didn't nerf the stupid besides the counter I guess but I'm assuming they didn't want to nerf Corrin's kill power.
CanadianCourage
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2015
- Messages
- 62
No its middle name is Jason
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Maybe my Corrin isn't advanced enough but what am (or was) I killing with usually? Uair and Uthrow lol. Sure the other stuff gets me wonderful, sometimes easy kills, but Uair and Uthrow dudes... Uair and Uthrow. RIP Uair.
CanadianCourage
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2015
- Messages
- 62
Well her run speed was nerfed so that should make follow ups easier to di
Side B (kick and tipper), Uair, Uthrow and pivot Fsmash are your go-to for KOs. Bair or DFS+Bite whenever applicable.
The run speed nerf was inconsequential.
Last edited: