Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Certainly it's among the best Dtilts but cases can definitely be made for MK and Swordfighter having better ones. MK's is frame 3, starts actual combos, jab locks, and even trips at a 25% chance. Swordie's is frame 5 and does 8% with Melee Marth/Roy total frames (19) combined with mostly vertical knockback.

Speaking of trips. Frame data question. Marth's Dtilt is supposed to have a 35% trip chance but I don't remember ever tripping someone with it. Why doesn't it trip? Is it the 30 degree kb angle that makes tripping impossible?

It used to be feasible to get on DK on pokemon stadium in certain transformations or Yoshi's Island.
It's the issue of the angle/high base.

And while those two are better combo dtilts, Marth's is... a walling/poking down tilt of utmost quality.
Swordfighter's is a good shield poke though.

 

[DariusM27]

Who are you talking to? You sound angry that people want to pick up Marth now after being buffed. Also lets not act like pugwest and Mr.E are the only good Marth players or that you have to be at their level to be a respectable Marth player.

As I explained, I'm skeptical that well known newcomers to marth will end up pushing the Marth meta at all, because people are caught up in his buff hype, which is overrated. And even if they did stick with him, we'll have to wait and see if they actually perform well with him. I think Zero wouldn't do mucb better with Marth that Mr e or pug, tbh. And they are not the only two respectable marths, but they are the one's with the tourny results. So anyone who says they want to pick up marth, we'll see how it actually goes, but so far it seems just hype train marth trials.

 

[Shaya]

I didn't realise he was being hyped beyond much more than just being considered competent.

I would say ZeRo could do well with Marth, but I'm not sure how they would be pushing the meta even if they did play him [much]. This character is still at it's core very similar to previous games, the meta for this character is already pretty well defined. Furthermore Marth is a character which reflects a player's fundamentals (spacing, timing, reaction) that is otherwise really only impacted by match up knowledge and experience [something which could even let a player like ZeRo down without decent work put into him].

Would they be publicising the already known better options?
Probably.
The latest set I saw from Pug had only jab into fsmash attempts on Marss; he hit none of them (he won the set anyway but it was the one thing I felt was ludicrous; it could be one of those brother things). I don't think ZeRo would go for a gimmick over and over again. But rather probably dash aerials or dolphin slash (or tilts early percent); he's cluey enough to figure stuff out like that himself OR effectively implement it immediately after seeing it.

Personally more mad about the dthrow u/bair business. "200,000 people now think Marth has this" :X

 

[DariusM27]

Guys I dunno if you knew this but someone test this to confirm non tipper jab to a buffered up b is a combo! (At higher percentage)

It combos, but it isn't a kill option. Idk, doesn't seem like a good option to me.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Can I just leave these here? I spotted these floating around on the internet this morning, just wondered what you lovely people thought of these...

GIVE ME, NOW! Obviously a character texture/model mod.

I really like Smash 4 Marth. I like how he actually looks a lot more like a male now (in the face for example, his hair being a bit shorter etc). I didn't used to be big on his clothing this time around, but it's warmed on me (so much so that I got a texture hack for PM of it). But there's something about Brawl Marth's clothing that I just adore. Maybe it's nostaglia, familiarity of it, with it being part of my Smash experience for what, 13 years. This texture mod combines both things I love about each Marth into one (Brawl Marth design, but with Smash 4 Marth face, hair etc).I really hope this is something I can get hold of in the future and put on my Wii U. It would definitely go over the blue Marth swap in Smash 4 (not the default one, you know, the one with the blue boots and the silver lining down his chest?).

For those interested, pretty sure the person who I found with this originally (possibly the creator) was called Shifter Mismagius.

 

[Jterr]

Insane combo by VeXx, a player who has optimized Marth really well, and performed combos I've never seen before or even knew about. I was so hype watching this yesterday. check this guy out, this jab lock combo is crazy good. (And against Mr. E!)

 

[Vipermoon]

Insane combo by VeXx, a player who has optimized Marth really well, and performed combos I've never seen before or even knew about. I was so hype watching this yesterday. check this guy out, this jab lock combo is crazy good. (And against Mr. E!)

Yeah VeXx made a thread about that specific combo a while ago (except the finisher was tipper Fsmash)

 

[Jterr]

Yeah VeXx made a thread about that specific combo a while ago (except the finisher was tipper Fsmash)

I saw that one too. I thought I was only one of the few Marth players who do falling up air to F smash, lol

 

[Vipermoon]

This is super odd. I know nothing about this game though. But hey, Fire Emblem shield!

 

[DariusM27]

This is super odd. I know nothing about this game though. But hey, Fire Emblem shield!

I LOVE Monster Hunter. I am so freaking P. O.d that it's apparently another 3ds only game!!! WTF NINTENDO!?!?!

 

[FallenHero]

That direct today was pretty boring imo. I'm sad to see that it is likely we won't ever have another Paper Mario like the first two. That Kirby looks good though. I loved Triple Deluxe, but hated the supernova gimmick. I thought every level in that game was good except for most of the ones where you use supernova for most of the level, because those levels just felt slow and boring to play.

 

[Vipermoon]

Shaya isn't the magic dust cloud two separate hitboxes? There's no way one size 5.5 hitbox can cover both sides like that. So why does mastercore list it as one hitbox with one location?

For reference, toomai's melee hitboxes excel file labels the dust cloud as two hitboxes

I'm going to sleep but I thought I'd ask first

 

[Shaya]

That initial combo is the most nuanced and beautiful thing I've seen in this game thus far.
Like, the amount of time and effort to really figure out things like that... and it'll likely only work on someone once in their entire lives!

It's a special hitbox command which has two extra parameters at it's end. An X2/Y2.
In the time that it's active the hitbox will move in position to the X2/Y2.
This is how most of Roy's sweetspots are coded, and stuff like Meta Knight's 1 frame up air does hit in more than one place

The magic dust starts at Y=5 and X=9 and transitions to X=-9 in the 2 frames it's active.

But that's still interesting because I thought they were still two separate hitboxes covering both sides, but it actually is dust coming out in the front first then behind him the frame after~

 

[LordShade67]

This is super odd. I know nothing about this game though. But hey, Fire Emblem shield!

Fun fact. This actually isn't the first collab FE's done with Monster Hunter. In one of the previous versions of Monster Hunter Frontier(PC MMO in Japan only....), Male characters could get armor to look like Chrom's outfit, and for female characters Lucina.

 

[SirLink]

I find it quite amusing that I found out about the localization of one of my most anticipated games on the Marth boards because I went on here before anywhere else.

Hopefully the Marth armor set has some decent skills to make it somewhat worth using, usually that's not the case with event gear like it. Who am I kidding though, I know I'm going to use it and pretend to hit the monsters with painful tippers.

 

[Shaya]

Hopefully not an unwanted spoiler !!! :<

 

[SirLink]

Nah, it's cool. I'm glad our Hero King is getting this kind of recognition, even outside of Smash. They could have easily put the much more recent Chrom/Lucina in, like they did in Frontier...but they picked Marth instead.

 

[Zano]

I finally return and Shaya has a Plutia avi, I can always count on you to have good taste.

Anyways, Marth has been pretty nice since the buffs but I'm only using him in teams still, not sure if I'll ever care to use him in singles.

 

[LordShade67]

Hopefully not an unwanted spoiler !!! :<

Nah. Monster Hunter isn't really heavy on story, lol.

 

[DariusM27]

Look at this nair nonsense, lol. I was happy with it.

From this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3lZCjj-EkM

 

[Shaya]

You hit him while he was jump up airing and the whole flip body into their "ughh i'm hit" animation is totally natural

(AND WHY PEOPLE FALL OUT OF ZERO SUITS UP-B!!)

 

[Reizilla]

Getting out of Zero Suit's Up B?

https://giant.gfycat.com/TenseDiscreteAlleycat.mp4

 

[Halifax?]

Mr. E vs Dabuz at Shots Fired 2 was pretty interesting. Mr. E used offensive Dolphin Slash a lot, once he used it to escape Rosalina's rapid jab and killed her at the same time. He would chain it together which was ****in wild LOL as if it were fair or something. However, he was punished nearly every miss or when he didn't land on the top platform. I'd say he did a great job of getting rid of Luma. He didn't punish Rosalina's recovery very often. Of course Dabuz will tech everything, and Mr. E could've also feared the tables turning on him. But if you don't want to risk off stage edge-guarding, you should try to hit the 2-frame ledge-snap with D-tilt. Also I didn't see that much D-tilt or jab from him, maybe he wanted to stay mobile and aerial against Rosalina.

 

[ElementUser]

For those wondering, there are some VODs up from Shots Fired 2 already with Mr. E's Marth play:

Mr. E vs. Chibo (Mii Gunner, ROB), Pools: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo1jYCe8L1M

Mr. E vs. Dabuz, Pools: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj8dvUGOkhM

 

[CanadianCourage]

Guys this has been bugging me for a while now but why do the marths and lucinas on YouTube videos not understand how to jse the characters? For example lots of marths throw out fsmashs to much when they should be ftilting or not dtilting recoveries that dont snap like clouds and Lucina players dont use her better dblade and easier combos to her advantage such as up air to fair to fair a low percent, as well as nair to fsmash after 100 where with rage is pretty easy to kill with. This bugs me because these are the marths and lucinas people bade their opinions of the characters on and they dont use thier best tools. This would be like Shiek players not using fair or needles making Shiek look bad and I don't like it one bit. Guess we need to go show people how to play these characters properly in tournament. Sorry if this rant offended anyone.

 

[Locuan]

Myself vs. TheRusBus (One of the best Marth's in Texas)
http://www.twitch.tv/atxsmash4/v/52403922?t=01h35m23s

Marth ditto. Noticed a few things from my game that I have to improve, but otherwise I think we both did pretty well mechanically. I need to improve my jab follow ups (still a thing I need to get used to) and stop giving up stage control purposefully. If you guys have any other observations, that'd be good.

 

[Vipermoon]

The magic dust starts at Y=5 and X=9 and transitions to X=-9 in the 2 frames it's active.

But that's still interesting because I thought they were still two separate hitboxes covering both sides, but it actually is dust coming out in the front first then behind him the frame after~

I finally remembered to test this in training. I used 1/4 mode + the Timer item. While Marth was going that slow, both opponents on either side spaced the same distance (max distance) away got hit at the same time.

Then I got an idea and tried Usmash while I was touching one opponent and max distance away from the other. The close opponent got hit by the magic dust cloud first.

So it looks like the hitbox starts X=0 and somehow moves in both directions/duplicates to +/- 9. Does data support this or do we just not have enough information right now?

 

[PEACE7]

Anyone know of any good videos of Marth vs Greninja?

 

[Stroderp]

Can I just say the combo Vexx did against Mr. E (uthrow, ds, ftilt, dair) was originally created by me? Expect with the tipper fsmash finish.

Also it seems as if I can't quote on mobile for some odd reason, but I dont believe there has been any good Greninja vs good Marth videos, the closest Ive gotten to seeing that was playing against the 2 best Marths in my state (AirVault and Silver) in sets.

 

[Vipermoon]

Here are Marth/Lucina's hitbox visuals for anyone who missed all that's been going on. Yes, Marth's on the same (the furthest bubble would be his "tipper"), Marth is just taller by a bit.

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Can I just say the combo Vexx did against Mr. E (uthrow, ds, ftilt, dair) was originally created by me? Expect with the tipper fsmash finish.

Also it seems as if I can't quote on mobile for some odd reason, but I dont believe there has been any good Greninja vs good Marth videos, the closest Ive gotten to seeing that was playing against the 2 best Marths in my state (AirVault and Silver) in sets.

I'm sorry! I credited VeXx because he posted it (I see now that he mentioned you). Nice job. A Dolphin Slash Jab Lock is not easy to come up with.

 

[CanadianCourage]

Can I just say the combo Vexx did against Mr. E (uthrow, ds, ftilt, dair) was originally created by me? Expect with the tipper fsmash finish.

Also it seems as if I can't quote on mobile for some odd reason, but I dont believe there has been any good Greninja vs good Marth videos, the closest Ive gotten to seeing that was playing against the 2 best Marths in my state (AirVault and Silver) in sets.

Can you link me to a vid of your combo?

 

[Nike.]

I played a friendly yesterday.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=2kDy26-kH6M

Lemme know how I did.

 

[Locuan]

I played a friendly yesterday.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=2kDy26-kH6M

Lemme know how I did.

You should come to Austin one day, just saying. Also, I watched. Analysis later, gotta head to tournament.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

That was an excellent read first stock. I liked the mixup with the shield breaker, your opponent never would've seen that coming. That second stock kill was really skillful. The fear was too real for Meta Knight. You made very good usage of your second stock with that nice 2% damage. It came down to the wire, but I think you should have won that match. The hard reads were too good for JBandrew.

Overall you did pretty good, keep it up!

 

[Halifax?]

Did SH tipper Fair always hit opponents on the ground from a missed tech?

 

[Shaya]

Did SH tipper Fair always hit opponents on the ground from a missed tech?

Yes (at least on most characters)

 

[Skyfox2000]

Hello Marth mains! I'm a Cloud main and I was wondering who wins in the Cloud vs Marth match-up?

 

[CanadianCourage]

Hello Marth mains! I'm a Cloud main and I was wondering who wins in the Cloud vs Marth match-up?

When in doubt, cloud wins XD.

But seriously while we can gimp with dtilt easy, cloud wins anyway. I would say its in clouds favour to win. Even if only slightly.

 

[Vipermoon]

It isn't slight. Cloud is one of Marth's losing MUs. Marth isn't one of the characters with the huge, long lasting, and disjointed hitboxes required to reliably gimp Cloud. Don't get me wrong... Dtilt, Fsmash, and Counter do a great job but 1. Cloud's Uspecial hitbox is enormous 2. Cloud has a lot of options still (unless you send him really far) 3. Cloud gimps better than he is gimped. In other words, don't think Cloud can't gimp Marth with Nair, Limit CS, and Dair edgeguards 4. HOW ARE YOU GONNA GIMP CLOUD IF HE WINS ON STAGE AND YOU ARE THE ONE GETTING SENT OFF?

Cloud is really good. Sure, Marth can sometimes challenge him directly as of last patch but there are so many factors. Marth can't use his best stage Battlefield against Cloud because Cloud owns that stage. To avoid crazy juggling and platform combos, Marth has to (like most other characters) usually take Cloud to Final Destination which is one of his weaker stages. To top things off, Cloud is more mobile and has limit meaning... Marth is the one who has to approach which is something Marth isn't good at.

We've seen many Marth's lose to Cloud at this point that it isn't just theory.

 

[EnGarde]

Cloud needs to auto-snap the ledge or gets countered on recovery. Like, Marth doesn't need to leave the stage to do it. I was practicing the Cloud-Roy matchup with my friend's Roy, and like, every time I didn't auto-snap the ledge as Cloud, my friend countered, and that was pretty much the stock. Marth's is much easier to use than Roy's, since yours has faster startup.