Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

Oh, that's what you guys are talking about? Fix what? You don't do on Fox at low percents. It's your fault if you do it and eat a dash attack to another 60% then get set off-stage and you can't get back on because it's Fox. There's nothing to fix, it doesn't hit there. It's not like it combos into Utilt anyway with almost 40 frames of cooldown.

EDIT: I FOUND A SOLUTION FOR YOU.

Am I the only one who labs DB?

 

[Shaya]

If the dancing blade strikes had active hitboxes 1 frame earlier than they were there would be a lot less 'whiffing' (bar db2 side). But yeah, as much as we would like DB to be mindless, being faster or slower in successive strikes and alternating which strikes you use is apart of it's design.

 

[Vipermoon]

If the dancing blade strikes had active hitboxes 1 frame earlier than they were there would be a lot less 'whiffing' (bar db2 side). But yeah, as much as we would like DB to be mindless, being faster or slower in successive strikes and alternating which strikes you use is apart of it's design.

Exactly which DB inputs hit earlier in the sword trail in Brawl?

All I know for sure is that DB4 used to hit above on frame 12 (like what effortless blade has now).

DB3 (up) (and probaby DB2 up) I know hits super low already. DB1 has an empty upper sword trail unlike Melee but that wouldn't help in Smash 4 because if it hits up there it won't connect into anything, just get you punished.

 

[Shaya]

That wasn't a Brawl comparison post
At high level or late into the game's life time, you wouldn't expect DB to be comboing reliably at all due to SDI.
Fortunately the lower cooldown for it on the ground or (sometimes) waiting a little bit and then continuing could get you them.
But if the opponent was Lucario, it wasn't going to happen.

DB1 into DB2 Up used to link a lot better and wouldn't push opponents into a spot impossible to follow up from like it does in this game though, probably has to do with rage.

 

[Vipermoon]

That wasn't a Brawl comparison post
At high level or late into the game's life time, you wouldn't expect DB to be comboing reliably at all due to SDI.
Fortunately the lower cooldown for it on the ground or (sometimes) waiting a little bit and then continuing could get you them.
But if the opponent was Lucario, it wasn't going to happen.

DB1 into DB2 Up used to link a lot better and wouldn't push opponents into a spot impossible to follow up from like it does in this game though, probably has to do with rage.

I know it wasn't. I'm honestly curious if they nerfed hitbox start-up for each move. Do you know off the top of your head what happened?

Rage is a killer sure, but it's no secret that they intentionally raised knockback on all DB links (except DB3 and 3-up tippers which do way too little kb for some reason).

 

[Shaya]

http://smashboards.com/posts/9193171

Dancing Blade:

One (Forward):
BKB: 19 - KBG: 23/32
Damage: 3 / 4 (3/1 hit bubbles)
*tip hitbox is not the 32 KBG.

Start: 1-3
Hit: 4-6
Input: 6-26
End: 29

Two (Forward):
BKB: 1E - KGB: 16
Damage: 3 / 4 (3/1 hit bubbles)

Start: 1-7
Hit: 8-10
Input: 12-32
End: 40

Two (Up):
BKB: 1E - KGB: 14
Damage: 3 / 4 (3/1 hit bubbles)

Start: 1-5
Hit: 6-10
Input: 11-31
End: 40

Three (Forward):
BKB: 64 - KGB: 0
Damage: 4 / 5 (3/1 hit bubbles)

Start: 1-4
Hit: 5-8
Input: 11-36
End: 46

Three (Up):
BKB: 3C - KGB: 1E
Damage: 4 / 5 (3/1 hit bubbles)

Start: 1-6
Hit: 7-10
Input: 16-37
End: 46

Three (Down):
BKB: 50 - KGB: 1E
Damage: 4 / 5 (3/1 hit bubbles)

Start: 1-6
Hit: 7-10
Input: 12-34
End: 46

Four (Forward):
BKB: 7D - KGB: 32
Damage: 6 / 8 (3/1 hit bubbles)

Start: 1-11
Hit: 12-15
End: 55

Four (Up):
BKB: 82 - KGB: 3C
Damage: 6 / 8 (3/1 hit bubbles)

Start: 1-9
Hit: 10-15
End: 50

Four (Down):
~Hit One:
BKB: 28 - KGB: 2
Damage: 2 (4 hit bubbles)
~Hit Two:
BKB: 78 - KGB: 3C
Damage: 3 / 5 (4 hit bubbles)

Start Up: 1-11
Hit One: 12-13, 16-17, 20-21, 24-25
Hit Two: 36-38
End: 65

Brawl's at least. I don't have the time to look at DB in this game right now.

 

[Vipermoon]

http://smashboards.com/posts/9193171/edit


Brawl's at least. I don't have the time to look at DB in this game right now.

HAHAHA! They took a frame off the start-up of everything. And then there's DB1 (which we of course know was frame 4 in Brawl) having the same active frames but still more sword trail coverage due to the faster animaton (correct if wrong).

 

[LancerStaff]

Took a pic of the wonky Shield Breaker animation mid swing(?). My browser hates me so here's a link: https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHk7aIOQFg

Hey, I was right.

 

[Shaya]

They likely really considered bringing back that animation for him but opted not to I guess.
Or intended to reuse animation parts for a custom special, but decided to go for the "HAH, JOKES" easy edition / worthless alts instead.

 

[Vipermoon]

Took a pic of the wonky Shield Breaker animation mid swing(?). My browser hates me so here's a link: https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHk7aIOQFg

Hey, I was right.

You used the time item (hell if i know item names) combined with 1/4 mode. Normally that sword movement happens within 1 frame. If I'm wrong about that (because I'm assuming that item plays with frame speed multipliers), Shaya will say something.

Regardless, I know what I saw (i even checked again). You can't normally stop it there.

Side note: what you did with that item combined with 1/4 is genius.

 

[LancerStaff]

They likely really considered bringing back that animation for him but opted not to I guess.
Or intended to reuse animation parts for a custom special, but decided to go for the "HAH, JOKES" easy edition / worthless alts instead.

If anything they wanted the move to work like it did before in the air. Possibly to remove the recovery applications of the move? IDK. Tempted to stick in my copy of Brawl and see if it still swings around...

You used the time item (hell if i know item names) combined with 1/4 mode. Normally that sword movement happens within 1 frame. If I'm wrong about that (because I'm assuming that item plays with frame speed multipliers), Shaya will say something.

Regardless, I know what I saw (i even checked again). You can't normally stop it there.

Side note: what you did with that item combined with 1/4 is genius.

Took a lot of fanagiling to catch this frame. Well actually I winged it and held B for a random amount of time while mashing L and got it on my third try but who's counting? Normally the game refuses to input anything not on a frame that would normally "visible" in a normal match I guess... So, I just used a backfired Timer (which is 1/4 speed, use on an enemy I think is 1/2, not hard to test with how SB wigs out on the respective speeds) which effectively doubled the amount of frames I could stop on. Theoretically you could use different combinations of Timer speed and training speed to land on different frames but I've got better things to be messing around with.

Originally I was just mashing home hoping I would end up on the right frame because home works at 60fps system time instead of match time. Ended up on an earlier frame but thought I could do better then that, so I did.

 

[Locuan]

Side note: what you did with that item combined with 1/4 is genius.

I agree, first thought was, "wow that's pretty nifty."

 

[Shaya]

With dolphin in Brawl, doing training mode 1/4 with the emulator's lowest fluid frame rate made you realise how many cool things exist in under a frame.
Down Tilt jittering upwards, Up Smash having Marth bend his knees, stab in front of him and to the side before doing a 180 degree twirl upwards (seriously, so frikken majestic but it's like 0.3 frame animation :<).
A lot of things of Marth's looks a lot cooler in slow motion.

 

[LancerStaff]

With dolphin in Brawl, doing training mode 1/4 with the emulator's lowest fluid frame rate made you realise how many cool things exist in under a frame.
Down Tilt jittering upwards, Up Smash having Marth bend his knees, stab in front of him and to the side before doing a 180 degree twirl upwards (seriously, so frikken majestic but it's like 0.3 frame animation :<).
A lot of things of Marth's looks a lot cooler in slow motion.

Then you have the not so great things like the stabbing motion on Lucina's Shield Breaker... Looks like she's attempting DB D4 or whatever you guys call it. May increase the hitbox size like Dtilt though. (Or Roy's animation is subtly sped up and his hitboxes are weird, somebody ought to look at both of those.)

Weird thing to note now that I'm looking at Timers. Well I said it already... But they double the frames you can input an action on, characters included. If something ever comes up and we need to look at a half frame of an action easily, there it is. Realized this just now when it messed up the B reverse on Electroshock.

Ohh yeah, I think I forgot to mention something before. If a character moves while interrupting a move it's because they're interrupting the return to a neutral stance. Ergo, Pit's frame data was worse in development because like half his moveset scoots him around when interrupted. They wanted all the swordmen to suck at one point, if it makes you guys feel any better. Edit: Oh, and more relevantly, it might mean that they wanted Lucina to be faster then Marth since she didn't shift around with Utilt. Edit edit: WORK DARNED YOU EDIT BUTTON

 

[Reizilla]

I played Marth dittos with the great @Nike. 20 today. He's still better than me.

 

[Shaya]

Is he going to start playing the game again now Marth has well above average range again?

 

[Locuan]

@Nike. please confirm. I also challenge you to Marth Ditto's.

 

[Reizilla]

Hopefully. Texas needs a real Marth main again.

 

[Vipermoon]

With dolphin in Brawl, doing training mode 1/4 with the emulator's lowest fluid frame rate made you realise how many cool things exist in under a frame.
Down Tilt jittering upwards, Up Smash having Marth bend his knees, stab in front of him and to the side before doing a 180 degree twirl upwards (seriously, so frikken majestic but it's like 0.3 frame animation :<).
A lot of things of Marth's looks a lot cooler in slow motion.

Okay this has to be a joke right? You are imply here that instead of the dust cloud, Usmash has attack in front and behind with a spin before the actual vertical stab. All in way less than a frame. A joke for sure.

 

[Locuan]

Hopefully. Texas needs a real Marth main again.

TheRusBus has been representing since day 1. He has not used any other characters and is in the top 10 of Austin.

 

[Reizilla]

Fine fine. SOUTH Texas

 

[Shaya]

Okay this has to be a joke right? You are imply here that instead of the dust cloud, Usmash has attack in front and behind with a spin before the actual vertical stab. All in way less than a frame. A joke for sure.

No no, you misunderstand.

He bends his knees, faces forwards, stabs upwards and forwards slightly and then twirls/pivots about 90 degrees on the spot as he rises to his standing position, with him straightening his arm as he does it at the same time.

Dust clouds are still magical clouds.

 

[Vipermoon]

No no, you misunderstand.

He bends his knees, faces forwards, stabs upwards and forwards slightly and then twirls/pivots about 90 degrees on the spot as he rises to his standing position, with him straightening his arm as he does it at the same time.

Dust clouds are still magical clouds.

Oh, right that's what you mean. Yeah I just looked at Melee's and I see it. Bend knees, twist, then sword trail kind of moves from the Z axis it seems as it's going up. I think he pretty much does the same in Smash 4 I just hate Smash 4's cooldown animation.

 

[DariusM27]

Marth's ability on fg/online is at least cut in half with any lag at all. Agree?
I think he's one of the worst or maybe the worst character for online play.

 

[Locuan]

Marth's ability on fg/online is at least cut in half with any lag at all. Agree?
I think he's one of the worst or maybe the worst character for online play.

I agree his ability is reduced but I think it's manageable. Definitely not the worst.

 

[LancerStaff]

If anything it's improved judging from the massive amount of scrub Marths I find...

 

[DariusM27]

I agree his ability is reduced but I think it's manageable. Definitely not the worst.

Trying to rush down a Mario or Diddy who really know what they are doing is an exercise in futility. At least off line you can react to make it more of an even matchup or 60/40 ish.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth doesn't have active hitboxes which is probably really important in lag. Plus he relies and his low start-up attacks. If there's lag and you can roll behind him on reaction when you see him doing something and punish. Then none of his frame traps work lag slowed things down. You mess up Dancing Blade because of lag and get punished. I agree that Marth is bad in lag. I don't play laggy matches at all, if the frame rate drops even a little or I notice the input lag I SD my stocks.

Edit: Diddy is not an even MU. He wins because of Fair and Bananas (the reason why he wins all of his other MUs lol)

 

[LancerStaff]

If I SD'd every time I get a whiff of lag my winrate would be like 0.2%...

Dunno, feels like for every legit setup you lose something else gets that much better. Maybe it's just me but I struggle when dealing with Jab > Fsmash with input lag. Haven't exactly found a Marth who could do much more then that but yaknow...

 

[Locuan]

You shouldn't be trying to rush down with Marth anyways. Online or Offline. Marth plays a reaction based style. You can rush down to mix it up and catch opponents off guard from time to time, but Marth's base isn't just trying to overwhelm the opponent. He gets punished hard for that.

 

[Vipermoon]

If I SD'd every time I get a whiff of lag my winrate would be like 0.2%...

Dunno, feels like for every legit setup you lose something else gets that much better. Maybe it's just me but I struggle when dealing with Jab > Fsmash with input lag. Haven't exactly found a Marth who could do much more then that but yaknow...

Well I barely play online anyway.

I can consistently jump out (this makes me prone to aerial follow-ups unless I jump air dodge though). Plus a lot of Marths have no idea Jab ends earlier so they use the old timing where it doesn't combo until Uthrow kills anyway

 

[Shaya]

Trying to play zss properly on wifi is at least 3x worse.
I'm not entirely sure why, but Marth is considerably easier to use on wifi this generation than in Brawl. Less silly moves like snake's ftilt and meta knight tornado to make life a lot easier maybe?

Forward Air is difficult to get around on wifi with the much shorter grab ranges in this game.

 

[Xisin]

Well, I got 1st in doubles and placed 3rd of 64 tonight. Honestly I'm on fire when I have advantage. I really drop the ball on disadvantage though. I'll have official results and videos soon.

 

[DariusM27]

I said rush down only because a Mario or diddy who know their character will either make you approach by camping, or trap you into a corner, and your only chance is either taking the exact best approach option that may or may not exist, or camp the ledge effectively which is a terrible disadvantage itself.
Idk, at this point I don't see how it doesn't matter how much you master marth, your still going down hard no matter what by someone who just picked up diddy after watching a few ZeRo games. (a bit salty, but hey. No more laggy games for me)

 

[SirLink]

My favourite lag-induced handicap is getting a Counter out of DB-Down and eating a massive punish. In general, it definitely must be the shabby active hitboxes of Marth that can cause a lot of problems online. I unfortunately live in Austria with no local Smash 4 scene or any competent friends I can play in person, so all I have is online play. At least it can be perfectly playable, especially if you're not used to the slight differences to offline that exist no matter what.

Idk, at this point I don't see how it doesn't matter how much you master marth, your still going down hard no matter what by someone who just picked up diddy after watching a few ZeRo games. (a bit salty, but hey. No more laggy games for me)

Hah, I know that salt too well. There are times when I fancy some Smash and only have FG to rely on, tends to end in salt and doubting everything Marth can do when some sweet lag is involved. If anything puts me on tilt - like losing a game because a shield didn't break when it really should have - I play like a scrub if I can't knock myself out of it immediately and regain my composure. Marth doesn't work with that mindset, at all. Playing Marth while you're tired after a day of work is also asking for frustration. Any auto-pilot kicking in when you're tired and you get punished hard by half decent opponents.

 

[Vipermoon]

I found out Dtilt can combo into Dtilt at extremely small percent ranges due to the range increase. The first Dtilt has to be literally inside your opponent though.

 

[Shaya]

Well, I got 1st in doubles and placed 3rd of 64 tonight. Honestly I'm on fire when I have advantage. I really drop the ball on disadvantage though. I'll have official results and videos soon.

Yo so we're back to Brawl 2009/10 problems? We in there :D

I found out Dtilt can combo into Dtilt at extremely small percent ranges due to the range increase. The first Dtilt has to be literally inside your opponent though.

It's amazing how much a range increase helps in things like this.
Another thing I've been doing lately is a lot more consistent down tilting of people at the ledge (assumingly their 2 frame vulnerabilities or the normal poking through/not sweetspotting). Feeeels soooo good.

 

[Halifax?]

Took a break from school this weekend, went home and got to play 1.1.4 Marth for the first time.

Marth's handling works well for me cause I lean defensive and escape disadvantage pretty well. My punish game is weak though and I struggle closing out with any character so the improved jab links are huge.

But besides the buff to his onstage game, I believe his offstage game was buffed as much. Personally my best offensive presence is offstage. In some MUs buffed fair killing 20% earlier can mean 40% earlier offstage. Landing a tipper anything offstage is more deadly, especially with no jump. Dtilt hitting ledge now lends to opportunities too.

mobility + jab links + ledge dtilt + offstage counter + offstage tipper aerials + dancing blade + dolphin slash = my offense

Since I rely so heavily on offstage I set c-stick to attack. Also, does anybody else use the pro controller?

I hope higher level Marths threaten top Marios, Luigis, Rosalinas, Ness, Lucas, and Clouds in the future, though this may be wishful thinking...

 

[Xisin]

^ i personally think he goes even or beats most of the characters you listed there.

adv vs rosa, luigi, ness, lucas and cloud. (might be even to cloud.)

Mario still hurts really bad once he gets inside so I'm really unsure. Captain Falcon has that same dynamic, everything is peachy til he gets in, then massive pain ensues.

like mus that i personally think marth struggles with for sure:

sonic, ryu (ugghhhh), king dedede, diddy, sheik, greninja.

Everything else I think is even or better. With Zss I've been knocking them out of their flip lately, which means a relatively easier gimp on her than we previously had.

 

[Vipermoon]

I think in this patch he is even with Rosa and Luigi where last patch they had a very small advantage. Mario was even now he's our small advantage. I don't know about Ness but I thought it was even before. Lucas was our slight advantage before imo but he was heavily buffed in 1.1.3 like we were in 1.1.4 so I don't think that changed.

I agree that Marth struggles with all of those you mentioned but definitely including Fox and not Greninja. He doesn't beat Greninja and those Shurikens are really hard on him but it's otherwise pretty okay.

Here's the reason for this post:

Cloud. I think Cloud craps on Marth. I have lost to Cloud 3 out of the 4 times I've faced him in tourney sets and I just don't see what ground Marth stands on stage. Like this seems beyond my MU issues; I simply can't see Marth overcoming Cloud at any level of play. Off-stage stuff is overrated and that is coming from an off-stage centric Marth.