Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[DariusM27]

Hey fellow Marth mains, after months of lurking I thought that I should actually join the discussion and learn even more about Marth....


I also noticed that almost everyone here swears by the tilt stick, I would love to properly switch because Marth's walk is so good for that but I have to back up DariusM27 by saying that the Smash stick has served me well so far, so I'm still torn on this topic.

That's it. I'm uploading a video by at least tomorrow showing why c stick to smash is good for Marth. Then we'll see what's what, lol

 

[Vipermoon]

Hey fellow Marth mains, after months of lurking I thought that I should actually join the discussion and learn even more about Marth.

My username is really just my name everywhere else, but I do use the tag SirMarth when I play Smash. I still need more playtime with the new and improved Marth, but after expecting pretty much nothing I was pleasantly surprised by all the changes. Still not a finished character, but it'll do for now. Now my most desired features are actually Counter quotes (not happening at this point...) and a somewhat fixed Shield Breaker. I still can't get over the fact that it's such a strong kill move that doesn't do the thing its named after.

I did think that I prefer them fixing Marth in general instead of him having a clutch move like Shield Breaker but I just can't let that one slip. Instead of completely taking away the +5 shield damage that means like 90% less broken shields, it should have gradually gone from 25 to 30 while charging so a medium charge would definitely do the job. Either that or apply at least +3 to the tip, I'd love to be rewarded with a shield break for good spacing with it.

I also noticed that almost everyone here swears by the tilt stick, I would love to properly switch because Marth's walk is so good for that but I have to back up DariusM27 by saying that the Smash stick has served me well so far, so I'm still torn on this topic.

My man! You think just like I do (except C stick Attack is far superior). Click the link in my signature and read about the best Marth ever because you obviously share my Marth mindset. I want to hear thoughts/feedback from as many people as possible on it.

 

[DariusM27]

My man! You think just like I do (except C stick Attack is far superior).

Let's compare notes then.

 

[Vipermoon]

Let'a compare notes then.

No thanks.

 

[Locuan]

It's not that C-stick set to Smash does not have it's benefits. It does. The best Marth in my region uses his C-stick to Smash attacks, but he plays a very obtuse style of Marth which makes it work. C-stick set to Attack though has greater benefits.

For example, aerial movement is now the same as in previous entries. By this I mean, you don't carry momentum by holding the C-stick in a direction after performing the aerial (this is huge for me). More importantly, you are able to perform walking jabs / walking d-tilts much more efficiently. The key is how tilt stick intertwines Marth's most used tools: walking, jabs, and tilts.

This is what it comes down to; what does Marth do most in the neutral? The answer is walking and using his quick moves (jab 1, tilts). Does a particular setting on the C-stick allow me to do those more efficiently? Yes. Does it have additional benefits to my specific nuances? Yes; not carrying momentum when holding the c-stick after an aerial. All the answers to these questions in unison quickly yield an answer.

I'm probably missing something but that does a good job of explaining how to think of both options.

 

[DariusM27]

No thanks.

A claim without substance to support it is baseless my friend. Just saying it's better without an explanation is kind of a useless statement.
If you don't want to give your reasons, that's fine though.

I'm going to do a compare contrast soonish.

 

[Vipermoon]

A claim without substance to support it is baseless my friend. Just saying it's better without an explanation is kind of a useless statement.
If you don't want to give your reasons, that's fine though.

I'm going to do a compare contrast soonish.

While I definitely am all about arguing for what one believes in, we've done this before starting with this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/hero-kings-council-video-analysis.368553/page-15#post-20766897
It didn't really go anywhere and nor did I think it will. I agreed to disagree.

 

[DariusM27]

While I definitely am all about arguing for what one believes in, we've done this before starting with this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/hero-kings-council-video-analysis.368553/page-15#post-20766897
It didn't really go anywhere and nor did I think it will. I agreed to disagree.

No problem man.

 

[FallenHero]

I am way too used to playing with my c stick set to smash attacks, so it would probably be next to impossible for me to try to get used to it without switching back after a little while.

 

[Shaya]

I went a decade with c-stick set to smash attacks.
It takes time, I still get annoyed that I mess up smash attack punishes (usually out of shield from buffering). But you adjust.
It does hurt other smash games but I don't play other smash games anymore.

But yeee know nothing until you feel the power of walking down tilt.

 

[DariusM27]

Hey fellow Marth mains, after months of lurking I thought that I should actually join the discussion and learn even more about Marth....

...I also noticed that almost everyone here swears by the tilt stick, I would love to properly switch because Marth's walk is so good for that but I have to back up DariusM27 by saying that the Smash stick has served me well so far, so I'm still torn on this topic.

Here's a video where I compare the two options for cstick and give some thoughts on it. I hope some of the info is helpful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fj3nNdOQCs

 

[SirLink]

It's not that C-stick set to Smash does not have it's benefits. It does. The best Marth in my region uses his C-stick to Smash attacks, but he plays a very obtuse style of Marth which makes it work.

I'd say that it works with my style of Marth too and part of that is well over a decade of playing with a Smash stick. It would take a decent amount of time to knock that out of my muscle memory, as catching people with twitch reaction (pivot) tipper Fsmashes by flicking the C-stick is something I do a lot. I'm not consistent enough using the A button (roughly 1/10 times I get Ftilt, slightly more often when under pressure) and A+B Smash isn't any good for me either...and that's just for doing Fsmash normally. I'd be trading early and very satisfying kills due to more control over my Fsmash for a stronger neutral game with easier access to those sweet Dtilts, which for my play style doesn't seem worth it. I may change my take on it in the future, but for now I'm sticking with it.

Here's a video where I compare the two options for cstick and give some thoughts on it. I hope some of the info is helpful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fj3nNdOQCs

This is pretty much what I love doing, fancy Fsmashes to punish mistakes. There are players that I've fought that are good at avoiding these situations, in those cases I'd prefer the tilt stick for the neutral...but the amount of times I've tipped the scales with Fsmashes that I couldn't reliably do without a Smash stick definitely outweighs that. Both options have their benefits but like you said, you can avoid the momentum by doing quick flicks and Dtilting out of a walk is still decent using the A button, just not as good as the tilt C-Stick.


On another note, I've played some more Marth last night and have been getting (Jab1->)Dtilt->DB all the time, it's awesome. I also hope I'm not the only one who struggles with the Bayonetta match-up. My main problem is near the later percents, when I constantly have to respect a Witch Time that starts as quickly as our Counter, has a lot less endlag and moves them backwards slightly, making it just that bit harder to punish...and when they get it, I'm most likely dead. Baiting and grabbing only gets Marth so far when he has such little reward off of high percent grabs. How are you guys dealing with this, any tips?

Vipermoon I'll make sure to give your ideal Marth post a proper read and share my thoughts on it later.

 

[CanadianCourage]

I went a decade with c-stick set to smash attacks.
It takes time, I still get annoyed that I mess up smash attack punishes (usually out of shield from buffering). But you adjust.
It does hurt other smash games but I don't play other smash games anymore.

But yeee know nothing until you feel the power of walking down tilt.

Nah the walking uptilt has that little movement to it that makes walking with it better against jiggly and othe jump happy characters so I like it a bit more.

I'vs also heard talk of fair to fair combos but what percent do you pull this off?

Btw did ftilt always move you forward a smidge, I dont think it did but could be wrong.

 

[Xisin]

Sour fair combos into fair at mid percents, weight dependant. If both sour and they air dodge you get a fancy smash follow-up. Try to tip the second fair tho, especially if You are near the ledge

 

[Vipermoon]

Moving forward when acting out of Ftilt is new this patch. Acting out of Utilt moves you even further this patch.

Thanks to Fair's power and range I was able carry a Villager off-stage and kill with short hop Fair > double jump Fair > tipper Fair. It killed from around 70 iirc with minimal rage.

 

[CanadianCourage]

Sour fair combos into fair at mid percents, weight dependant. If both sour and they air dodge you get a fancy smash follow-up. Try to tip the second fair tho, especially if You are near the ledge

Its sad but I CANT not tip fair now. I tried anf always tioper it time to practice not hitting the tipper... That sounds strange af

 

[Xisin]

I want to swap to tilt stick but old habits die hard. Much like Shaya I have a near decade of smash stick. in the heat of the moment i go for a c stick smash. Hard wired. I'll start unlearning it after the next tourney. Until then i can do a non crouch dtilt pretty well.

On the flip side i had no issues with the new aerials, they feel familiar to me somehow, could be brawl marth, but idk.

 

[PEACE7]

Can someone explain to me the dair properties and what to aim for when trying to spike

 

[FallenHero]

Can someone explain to me the dair properties and what to aim for when trying to spike

You have to try to hit with the tipper at the middle of the attack's arc.

 

[Vipermoon]

Can someone explain to me the dair properties and what to aim for when trying to spike

Read this for everything you need to know about Dair
I got way better at this move once I understood it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-marth-question-and-answer-thread.383383/page-19#post-20828143

You have to try to hit with the tipper at the middle of the attack's arc.

Not necessarily. You can hit with the side of the sword in front of Marth as well for example. As long as it's frame 11, it's a spike.

 

[PEACE7]

Word thanks a lot guys!

 

[SirLink]

Can someone explain to me the dair properties and what to aim for when trying to spike

One of the most reliable ways I get Dair spikes is by making opponents think they're safe to recover low by standing still, jabbing or whatever at the ledge, only to run off the ledge and fast-fall Dair into them. By now, I get the spike 90% of the time, but if I don't I'm still at an advantage because Marth can get back to the ledge in an instant. It works against enough recoveries to be noteworthy and is a good option to keep in mind as long as you don't try it too often.

I've been practising the more conventional double jump above them->Dair Spikes but getting a success rate that's as high as 90% is far more difficult that way. It's still a pretty bad spike that doesn't have as much knockback as it should given its relative difficulty compared to other good spikes but hey, at least it looks stylish as hell.

 

[Bowserboy3]

On the topic of using the C-Stick, I currently use the C-Stick set to Smash, but I am gradually making the switch to C-Stick Attack.

My main worry was that it's a lot easier and quicker to space a tipper Fsmash with the C-Stick, and this was why I was unsure about making the switch. However, I recently found out the joy of the A+B Smash function. With this, I can still do my walking Fsmashes (when needed) with ease, and I can still use the C-Stick to tilt. Another example is me miss spacing a tipper with not using the C-Stick. Of course it is well known, but landing Uair into tipper Fsmash is very nice, and I go for this option quite a bit. Having the C-Stick makes landing that tipper that bit easier, but without it, I used to occasionally move forward a bit first, missing the tipper and getting the sourspot. However, with the A+B Smash option, I can do much the same thing as with just the C-Stick, and it's just as reliable.

Like I say, still making the adjustment so far. I'm not confident/competent enough yet to use it in a tournament setting (like I went to a tournament on Saturday, but I still used C-Stick Smash as I am not confident enough yet. Also managed to get 5th, yay), but I am seeing a lot more positives to the tilt stick.

Just for clarity, this is my control setup I am leaning towards now for Marth on my GC contoller (anything not mentioned is set to default):

Rumble - Off
Tap Jump - Off
A+B Smash - On
C-Stick - Attack

For certain characters, I have the L button set to Jump (Rosalina for example), as I find it a LOT easier to follow up in the air using the L button and the C-Stick to Up Air etc. However, with Marth, I find SHAD a lot more benefitial, and I find it a lot easier to use the L button to air dodge rather than R. As I use Y for most jumps/short hops, I find using the same hand to do the jump and air dodge makes me mess up one input (either I FHAD, or I short hop and don't air dodge), so using different hands for the two inputs I feel is a lot more reliable. If I can somehow master being able to quickly short hop and air dodge with Y and R, I will universally switch my L button to Jump.

One final question regarding the C-Stick topic; Does having the C-Stick set to Attack stop you from fast falling a Dair? I can't say I've took much notice to whether it does or not.

---

Thanks to Fair's power and range I was able carry a Villager off-stage and kill with short hop Fair > double jump Fair > tipper Fair. It killed from around 70 iirc with minimal rage.

Don't know whether this was possible before the patch, but the other day I got a pretty sweet combo/string on a Mega Man. It consisted of short hop sourspot Fair, sourspot Uair into fast fall, full hop Fair, tipper Fair. He was at about 50% when this worked, and it appeared that he couldn't get out of it. Though it didn't kill straight away, it set up nicely for an edgeguard which I quickly took advantage off and finished the stock.

 

[Vipermoon]

No, the Dair doesn't fast fall with Tilt stick. I thought it didn't with smash stick either?

 

[DariusM27]

It does if you tap it twice

 

[Bribery]

On the topic of using the C-Stick, I currently use the C-Stick set to Smash, but I am gradually making the switch to C-Stick Attack.

My main worry was that it's a lot easier and quicker to space a tipper Fsmash with the C-Stick, and this was why I was unsure about making the switch. However, I recently found out the joy of the A+B Smash function. With this, I can still do my walking Fsmashes (when needed) with ease, and I can still use the C-Stick to tilt. Another example is me miss spacing a tipper with not using the C-Stick. Of course it is well known, but landing Uair into tipper Fsmash is very nice, and I go for this option quite a bit. Having the C-Stick makes landing that tipper that bit easier, but without it, I used to occasionally move forward a bit first, missing the tipper and getting the sourspot. However, with the A+B Smash option, I can do much the same thing as with just the C-Stick, and it's just as reliable.

Like I say, still making the adjustment so far. I'm not confident/competent enough yet to use it in a tournament setting (like I went to a tournament on Saturday, but I still used C-Stick Smash as I am not confident enough yet. Also managed to get 5th, yay), but I am seeing a lot more positives to the tilt stick.

Just for clarity, this is my control setup I am leaning towards now for Marth on my GC contoller (anything not mentioned is set to default):

Rumble - Off
Tap Jump - Off
A+B Smash - On
C-Stick - Attack

These are my exact settings except I keep Tap Jump on for double-sticking. It makes rising SH aerials and some OoS options much easier for me.

I used the Smash stick for years but ever since I switched to Tilt stick, there's no way I could switch back. A+B smash helps me still do walking and pivot F-Smashes which were the only things I couldn't do reliably without the Smash stick.

 

[Trunks159]

Apparently Pugwest on the rise in Jersey (KTAR). Anyone have any comments?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUpy14mkQQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Wsp2cIYX8

 

[DariusM27]

Apparently Pugwest on the rise in Jersey (KTAR). Anyone have any comments?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUpy14mkQQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Wsp2cIYX8

He's doing his best with Marth, I appreciate his dedication. I'm sure he'll only improve as he continues to adjust to the patch and the new possibilities.

 

[Vipermoon]

I noticed Pugwest is notorious for missing DB4-up tipper kills (he goes for forward). Tilts aren't as important in his play-style (and they really are spammable this patch). Neither is Jab > aerial. Still a really good Marth!

It does if you tap it twice

That the same for every aerial. Unlike Melee and Brawl, if you aerial during your fast fall, you lose the fast fall. That's why you can just immediately tap again to continue the FF. This a good thing overall. But sometimes (rarely though) when I Dair on stage, I miss the second fast fall so the Dair doesn't reach and I eat a huge punish.

Edit: Bribery Tap jump FTW! I've always been a tap jump guy
SirLink running off stage with Dair is a dumb idea and I don't believe you get the spike (or Dair at all) 90% of the time. And no you can't immediately get back on stage because Dair lasts 59(!) frames

 

[Trunks159]

Yeah, biggest criticism would be him not using jab > fair or jab > ftilt. I look forward to seeing more from him.

 

[DariusM27]

From neutral, which moves are easiest to land with Marth?

Off the top of my head, I think

1. TIpper rising fair
2. Dancing blade
3. Nair (Rising)
4. Utilt/ftilt/Dtilt
5. Grab

Which are the hardest to land?

Imo,
1. nair1
2. weak hit falling uair
3. Any grab throw follow up
4. Weak hit falling fair/nair
5. Tipper fsmash

It seems that the most rewarding moves in either kill power or effective combos are the hardest to find position on. And Marth has a hard time forcing opponents into compromising situations.

Just a few observations. Trying to refine strategy a bit.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hardest: TIPPER UP SMASH

 

[DariusM27]

Although, the improvement to his juggle game with utilts and uair may be where his strongest combo game is. Too bad Utilt is such a temperamental move with hitboxes and not amazing range. (Beating a dead horse)

 

[Vipermoon]

Yup. Too much base knockback. Too little damage. Plenty of hitbox issues. Still one of the best Utilts in the game. Kind of funny.

 

[Xisin]

dancing blade makes me want to punch a kitten sometimes. to input errors to falling out. I could also swear the dumb move requires different blade timings on heavier characters due to hit lag or something. Why Sakurai, why.

 

[LancerStaff]

View attachment 97192

Little late, but what's probably happening is that Marth's sword is whipping around in the animation, but so fast that it can't be seen. As we know from Marth's Dtilt, sword trails get exaggerated with slower speeds. Pit's one sword on his Bair flips around like crazy on lower speeds, so it's not like it doesn't happen anywhere else.

 

[Vipermoon]

A dancing blade without hitlag lmao. Would be so broken.

Little late, but what's probably happening is that Marth's sword is whipping around in the animation, but so fast that it can't be seen. As we know from Marth's Dtilt, sword trails get exaggerated with slower speeds. Pit's one sword on his Bair flips around like crazy on lower speeds, so it's not like it doesn't happen anywhere else.

Oh yeah, I definitely noticed him actually moving his arm/sword like that but I couldn't get it to stop on it whether doing hold L even frames or odd. It all happens within 1 frame it seems, really weird. And of course, it's right before the hitbox so not hitboxes up there unfortunately.

 

[Reizilla]

What saddens me is that characters that up tilt trapping works best on can't be set up to it with db4 up because it just straight up whiffs on them

 

[Vipermoon]

What saddens me is that characters that up tilt trapping works best on can't be set up to it with db4 up because it just straight up whiffs on them

What does? DB4 up? The only time DB4 up straight up fails is if you're up close and they're both small-ish and grounded (probably a z axis thing like Utilt)

 

[SilverForUbers]

I find it sad that the up variant of DB4 will practically never hit any fast faller at lower percents (usually around 0-30%) even though the sword seems to go right through them. No matter how fast I mash I have to go for the side variant because they land before I can use the up variant and I'll just get punished for trying to set up a landing trap / juggle scenario. Was disappointed when the multiple DB patches that came out never fixed this.