Seeking suggestions: How to deal with aggression & defensive characters as Ness

[Shleee]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on here. So I started playing a few months ago when I heard ultimate was coming out. I’ve gotten pretty decent and can beat some people who play competitively at a low level once I get used to their play style. I have a really good combo game and if I can get a good couple grabs I find I’ll usually take the match or at least it will be close. Specifically I struggle with heavy aggression and defensive characters like Zelda and Pauletena (at least good pauletena plays that don’t spam counter and reflect).

- I lose against almost all heavies except ganondorf. Even when they over commit and are constantly spamming laggy attacks I feel like I can’t get in for the punish on reaction. I try to out space them most of the time and sometimes it works but I play pretty aggro and I feel like it works against me. Also DK in particular is hard to space out because of his grab range. Even if I combo them to **** it only takes a couple reads with rage to kill me. Bowser I particularly get bodied because my shield is always getting broken. I know I have to respect down b but I feel like when I try to get close enough to punish I just have to make one mistake and the stock is gone.

- I do not know how to deal with aggressive Yoshi players AT ALL. I’m not sure what my openings are because all his moves seem to have very little end lag and I can’t get a grab when he approaches with short hop Aireals even if I shield because he just goes straight into jab and puts me under a lot of shield pressure.

-Zelda don’t know how to deal with diamond reflect spam. I’m not a pk fire spammer but I can’t even attack when players spam this move and I feel so silly for losing to bad players who are just spamming this and smash moves.

-Roll behind. This one isn’t so bad, I typically spot dodge, down smash or go for the long term punish with a pk rocket read if they’re always doing it, but any really hard punish is difficult because I’m not sure which moves are fast enough to punish it without a spot dodge, which leaves me open to a forward smash if they read it. Nair isn’t a bad option either but it doesn’t help against sword characters who are hitting me from behind.

-Landing on stage. I try to mix it up with fast fall then immediately up or down smash since both are pretty fast and come out pretty much immediately when i hit the ground (also most people don’t expect it ), psi magnet stalls mixed with fast fall so the timing is hard to read, sometimes pk rocket and pk thunder mind games (more than I should sometimes bc I know it’s really punishable if you miss but it works really well against opponents that over commit to smash moves when I’m trying to land), and ff up air, but I still usually get bodied once I get hit upward.

Thanks guys let me know if you have any tips.

 

[Uffe]

Patience is key here. That doesn't mean play slow, it just means play smart and try to have them make mistakes that you can punish.

DK - Spaced SH > fair/uair against grabby DK's. Out of Shield (OoS) nair could potentially break you away from DK's grab the moment he goes for one. If DK is off stage and trying to recover, SH > PKF and hope it lands into his recovery. If you land this, spam the hell out of PKF, because if it doesn't gimp him, at least it'll rack up a ton of percent on him making it easier for you to kill him. Don't challenge DK's bair combo. If he lands one bair, try to avoid a possible second and third one.

Bowser - Same deal. Bowser is another character who should be looking to go for grabs. Spaced SH > fair/uair also works here. I'm not so sure about Ness' bair, though. I get grabbed if they block it, and I'm not really sure why. If you use PKF against Bowser on stage, don't go in for a grab until they're at a higher percent, because at low percent, Bowser can jab or grab you while they're burning. If they're above you on stage, you can try to bait them into using their butt stomp or dair. Otherwise I wouldn't even try to challenge that. PK Flash (PKFl) can stop Bowser's butt stomp when he's in the air, but it's usually not worth trying to land.

Yoshi - I can't even figure this one out. Yoshi gives me trouble. All I can tell you is don't let your focus be his egg throwing. On stage, he'll try to jab > jab > fair spike you off stage. At higher percent, watch out for his fair > FH > uair. That can kill. If you go in aggressively against a Yoshi who blocks a lot, he could OoS > down B to kill you. I just hate this MU in general, and part of it is because Yoshi just seems really fast and strong, and also because I don't know this MU very well.

Zelda - This one is strange. Look at this not so promising match of myself vs a Zelda. I could have done better during that match, and I wasn't playing very smart, either. If Zelda spams Nayru's Love, wait for it and then punish her. At around 0:14 in the video, that's what I should have done. I walked away as this Zelda used Nayru's Love, and then I punished her with a grab to an attempted uair. Ness' dash attack may also help here, because of the three PSI rings that come out, as long as you space it properly. Ness' dash attack can lead into a fair.

What do you mean with roll behind? Sword characters give Ness trouble because of their long ranged disjointed hitboxes. Maybe in Ultimate this will change for the better for Ness. If people roll around you, you can nair them, back away and nair them, walk away from them if they're rolling towards you, or just run off. Marth is a pain in the butt. I wasn't able to upload my other replays due to the 3 minute limit.

 

[Thatonehelper]

Looks like you’re asking for matchup knowledge. I could tell you about them all but it would be much more meaningful if you come up with your own answers.

• Try looking up one of the lists of each character’s strengths and weaknesses on reddit or google docs.
• Try asking the Ness discord for advanced help
• Watch videos of pro players fighting those characters and analyze it. Focus on games that are close and sets that Ness wins.
  • You can even analyze why a certain player lost and what he or she did

=================================================================================

Alright you’ve done the work and can function at a basic level. Well done! Now it’s time for the real grind to begin… working on other aspects of the game. You need to work on your knowledge, your patience, your execution and much more.

You need to be optimal, you need to know what to do in different situations, and you need to be aware of many different factors.

Let’s talk about Zelda.
Zelda is rewarded heavily off grab. She has a very solid defensive game but has a terrible approach game.

Are you considering these factors?

• Are you making Zelda approach after taking a lead?
  • How fast does she move?
  • What offensive options does she have?
• Do any of Ness’ options beat out most of Zelda’s?
• Are you waiting out or baiting Nayru’s Love so that you can get a free punish during the end lag?
  • Do you know how many hitboxes there are?
  • Are you using your shield?
• Does this Zelda player reflect everything?
  • I can reflect and/or absorb in x,y,z scenarios
• How does Ness deal with teleport cancels?
• When can I kill Zelda with ness’ Bthrow, Uair, Bair?
• How should I DI or react to a down throw?
  • What’s her optimal combo string and at what percent range does down throw to Upair become a kill confirm?
  • When can Ness safely airdodge out?
  • When should I mix up my DI?
• How do I play around throws?
  • Are you avoiding Dtilt, Pivot grabs, and Jab?
• Are my rolls, airdodges, and spot dodge baits being scouted out?
  • Maybe I need to go in straight and get an easy punish
  • Mabe I need to condition this Zelda
• How do I edgeguard Zelda or at least trap her?
• How can I safely recover to get past Zelda’s Dair, Dtilt, and other options?
  • Do I know the range and purpose of certain moves?
• Do I need to delay my recovery or come in at an awkward angle?
  • Have I done this option too much?
• What stage should I go to?
  • Why is Zelda very weak on FD but very strong on battlefield?
  • Why does Ness have the advantage on Smashville in this MU?

 

[Thatonehelper]

Looks like you’re asking for matchup knowledge. I could tell you about them all but it would be much more meaningful if you come up with your own answers.

• Try looking up one of the lists of each character’s strengths and weaknesses on reddit or google docs.
• Try asking the Ness discord for advanced help
• Watch videos of pro players fighting those characters and analyze it. Focus on games that are close and sets that Ness wins.
  • You can even analyze why a certain player lost and what he or she did

=================================================================================

Alright you’ve done the work and can function at a basic level. Well done! Now it’s time for the real grind to begin… working on other aspects of the game. You need to work on your knowledge, your patience, your execution and much more.

You need to be optimal, you need to know what to do in different situations, and you need to be aware of many different factors.

Let’s talk about Zelda.
Zelda is rewarded heavily off grab. She has a very solid defensive game but has a terrible approach game.

Are you considering these factors?

• Are you making Zelda approach after taking a lead?
  • How fast does she move?
  • What offensive options does she have?
• Do any of Ness’ options beat out most of Zelda’s?
• Are you waiting out or baiting Nayru’s Love so that you can get a free punish during the end lag?
  • Do you know how many hitboxes there are?
  • Are you using your shield?
• Does this Zelda player reflect everything?
  • I can reflect and/or absorb in x,y,z scenarios
• How does Ness deal with teleport cancels?
• When can I kill Zelda with ness’ Bthrow, Uair, Bair?
• How should I DI or react to a down throw?
  • What’s her optimal combo string and at what percent range does down throw to Upair become a kill confirm?
  • When can Ness safely airdodge out?
  • When should I mix up my DI?
• How do I play around throws?
  • Are you avoiding Dtilt, Pivot grabs, and Jab?
• Are my rolls, airdodges, and spot dodge baits being scouted out?
  • Maybe I need to go in straight and get an easy punish
  • Mabe I need to condition this Zelda
• How do I edgeguard Zelda or at least trap her?
• How can I safely recover to get past Zelda’s Dair, Dtilt, and other options?
  • Do I know the range and purpose of certain moves?
• Do I need to delay my recovery or come in at an awkward angle?
  • Have I done this option too much?
• What stage should I go to?
  • Why is Zelda very weak on FD but very strong on battlefield?
  • Why does Ness have the advantage on Smashville in this MU?

For spacing out on reaction, that something you will really need to work on.
That can change your options from only a pk fire punish to stuffing approaches, power shields, spot dodges, and pivot grabs on command.


DK is particularly hard to deal with as Ness.
He has got the tools to deal with everything Ness can throw out.
MUs vs the heavies are very punish heavy rather than neutral heavy.
Each player needs to know to maximize their mileage from just one grab.


For heavies you need to make sure they are constantly in disadvantage.
Juggle them to oblivion and make sure they cannot land.
If they are on ledge make sure they cannot get back on.
Know how to edgeguard them and make sure you are not the one being punished.
If you want to learn how to fight DK then I suggest you watch "Art of DK". Izaw tells you how to beat his neutral in 2 sentences before going into how to play him.


Bowser in particular should be pretty easy.
Mix between baiting the landing option and challenging it.
If you're not in a good position to outspace or challenge then just airdodge. still an easy punish.
Try fighting Bowsers on Lylat you should be able to see a big payoff with all the platforms shielding you.
If you're playing your cards right you shouldn't even be using your shield, but dancing around Bowser.
Learn how to destroy Bowser off stage and at the ledge.


Playing around Bowser and DK grab is a learning experience.
But I highly suggest you stop mindlessly approaching and getting bopped by
a pivot or standing grab. Make sure you know their up throw up air kill confirm percent ranges too.


Yoshi is very fast and tricky in the air.
Yoshi has the advantage in this MU. Make sure you avoid Fair spikes. Yoshi will get a lot of them on Ness so, do your best.

Ness doesn't have the speed or range to lock him on the ground or juggle him much. Good luck.
Yoshi can chase and reset much easier than Ness can. And unfortunately, PK thunder is super exploitable.

You need power shields, rolls, and spot dodges to deal with eggs, tilts, aerials, and command grabs.
For Yoshi it's a neutral game heavy match. Work on winning your exchanges.
Try to footstool Yoshi offstage. Maybe you can get an aerial PK fire snipe offstage or PK rocket if you're lucky.
If the Yoshi's not that great you can try to steal their ledge jump with Dtilt spam or a lucky jab. (Yoshi will need to egg toss immediately to survive)
After which you get a powershield to ledge trump or just cover ledge options as usual.

Like in the Bowser matchup, standing under platforms can shield you from certain followups.


To punish rolls in general, yes, Dsmash is your go to option. Sometimes you can get a lucky PK fire read or PK rocket, but thats all super rare.