• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

Zult

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
291
NNID
Zultie
Does anyone know if up throw to up B a 50/50? Only time people escape it when I do it to them is when they air dodge. At around 60-70 if I get them with the up B because they don't air dodge they usually die off the top. But if I condition them to air dodging then I just charge an up smash. Can anyone confirm this?
 

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
Does anyone know if up throw to up B a 50/50? Only time people escape it when I do it to them is when they air dodge. At around 60-70 if I get them with the up B because they don't air dodge they usually die off the top. But if I condition them to air dodging then I just charge an up smash. Can anyone confirm this?
If you know they will airdodge, then the Usmash will definitely hit. What about Uair. Does Uair combo into Twist at that range? Because if Twist doesn't work, Uair might work a bit better as it should be able to catch jumps.
 

Zult

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
291
NNID
Zultie
If you know they will airdodge, then the Usmash will definitely hit. What about Uair. Does Uair combo into Twist at that range? Because if Twist doesn't work, Uair might work a bit better as it should be able to catch jumps.
Well uair is frame 9 while witch twist is frame 4. So most of the times I go for witch twist depending on how they DI the uthrow.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
So my absolute favorite edgeguard with Bayonetta is dsmashing the ledge (das boot, aka FABULOUS POSE) but I'm not convinced the hitboxes go low enough to catch the 2-frame. I'm also getting better with placing her dair spike (and making it back safely ofc). But what other edgeguarding options does she have? Lingering nair/uair seems obvious but is there anything else?
 

ElMoro995

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 19, 2014
Messages
72
So my absolute favorite edgeguard with Bayonetta is dsmashing the ledge (das boot, aka FABULOUS POSE) but I'm not convinced the hitboxes go low enough to catch the 2-frame. I'm also getting better with placing her dair spike (and making it back safely ofc). But what other edgeguarding options does she have? Lingering nair/uair seems obvious but is there anything else?
bair stagespike and low upb towards the side blastzone against characters with poor recovery
 

pikazz

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
NNID
pikamaxi
So my absolute favorite edgeguard with Bayonetta is dsmashing the ledge (das boot, aka FABULOUS POSE) but I'm not convinced the hitboxes go low enough to catch the 2-frame. I'm also getting better with placing her dair spike (and making it back safely ofc). But what other edgeguarding options does she have? Lingering nair/uair seems obvious but is there anything else?
on some characters that peaks up from the ledge should be possible (Jr, Yoshi, Dededes Glove).
not sure of them thats have the lowest Hitboxes on hanging at ledge
 

-Sensei-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
308
Location
Orlando, FL
NNID
Sensei544
Ok so not sure if anyone has noticed this, but I found something interesting in the Bayonetta ditto. If you use witch time on any of her bullet arts, the Witch Time will activate even from half a stage away. I'm guessing that the bullet arts count more as an extended physical hitbox than a projectile.
 

Flamegeyser

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
248
Ok so not sure if anyone has noticed this, but I found something interesting in the Bayonetta ditto. If you use witch time on any of her bullet arts, the Witch Time will activate even from half a stage away. I'm guessing that the bullet arts count more as an extended physical hitbox than a projectile.
Yeah, it's real weird, but it's funny because a lot of Bayo's don't know that. Often in mirrors I'll spam dtilt bullets until they do it too, then WTi for a punish/kill.
 

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
Hey, can we lab optimal time punishes? It isn't a combo so we could do it. For simple punishes, I usually Usmash at lower Percents into a combo. And the go for an Fsmash or Usmash at higher Percents for the kill.

You can also Bair-Utilt into a combo, which deals a lot of damage and you have a lot of time to think about the optimal one.

Also, just finished a lot of writing so I can start on my threads soon.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,156
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
Hey, can we lab optimal time punishes? It isn't a combo so we could do it. For simple punishes, I usually Usmash at lower Percents into a combo. And the go for an Fsmash or Usmash at higher Percents for the kill.

You can also Bair-Utilt into a combo, which deals a lot of damage and you have a lot of time to think about the optimal one.

Also, just finished a lot of writing so I can start on my threads soon.
Whatever I do in Witch Time, if I can't get the KO I use either dsmash or dair near the end to reset and keep them close.
 

Forze Dell'Oscurita

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
13
Location
Illinois
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this; but what does everyone use in order to do the double jump cancel witch twist? I've been using the shoulder button for it; but I've been having consistency issues.

On that note, did they patch out the ability to do three witch twists? When I am able to DJC the witch twist, I'm left with my double jump, but not the ability to witch twist again, I'm only able to use my ABK. Is it something I'm doing wrong?
 

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this; but what does everyone use in order to do the double jump cancel witch twist? I've been using the shoulder button for it; but I've been having consistency issues.

On that note, did they patch out the ability to do three witch twists? When I am able to DJC the witch twist, I'm left with my double jump, but not the ability to witch twist again, I'm only able to use my ABK. Is it something I'm doing wrong?
I believe that you were never able to do three Twists...

And I use Z for Jump.
 

Zult

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
291
NNID
Zultie
What's better? Jump cancel side b in the middle of your combo or a jump cancel up b? Or is it basically the same?
 

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
What's better? Jump cancel side b in the middle of your combo or a jump cancel up b? Or is it basically the same?
JC Up B doesn't work past 50% usually, and JC ABK doesn't really work below 50% as the opponent isn't sent high enough.
 

Zult

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
291
NNID
Zultie
JC Up B doesn't work past 50% usually, and JC ABK doesn't really work below 50% as the opponent isn't sent high enough.
If you do the jump cancel fast enough does it matter? It looks like it doesn't even make a difference. I didn't know you had to different ones at different times.
 

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
If you do the jump cancel fast enough does it matter? It looks like it doesn't even make a difference. I didn't know you had to different ones at different times.
At some point the opponent is just sent too far away, too fast. But it might be a higher percent, like 80%.
 

John12346

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2009
Messages
3,534
Location
New York, NY
NNID
JohnNumbers
Hey guys. If it's alright, I'd like to confirm my thoughts on proper DI vs Bayo's combo moves, for my own peace of mind.

To my understanding, I've been led to believe that I want to DI down and away against UpB1, UpB2, Fair1, and ABDiveK, and to DI down and towards against regular ABK. Is that correct? And does weight/fall speed factor into this any?

Thaaanks~
 

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
Hey guys. If it's alright, I'd like to confirm my thoughts on proper DI vs Bayo's combo moves, for my own peace of mind.

To my understanding, I've been led to believe that I want to DI down and away against UpB1, UpB2, Fair1, and ABDiveK, and to DI down and towards against regular ABK. Is that correct? And does weight/fall speed factor into this any?

Thaaanks~
I don't want to talk about the first because I don't know if I am right on that point. But ABK is percent dependent. You want to DI in at lower percents to avoid the Twist, and away at higher percents for the same reason. Out of Twist 2, you want to DI into the twist to try and avoid the Uair, and I don't think the combo works at percents where DI'ing away works.
 

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
Does airdodging make bayonetta's landing lag worse? Also any advice on trying to buffer dabk?
 
Last edited:

C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,554
Location
East Coast
Any ideas on Bayo's preferred stages? I'm pretty comfortable on FD but that might just be because I practice combos on it. Smashville seems good because ABK/Divekicking to the platform is a good landing mixup, but it generally stays out of the way.
Town and City's low ceiling seems like it would lend itself towards her ceiling combos and up air kills.

So... ban Battlefield? I dunno.
 

Tythaeus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
199
Location
Kalamazoo, Michigan
NNID
xX-R4GE-Xx
3DS FC
4038-7179-8613
Any ideas on Bayo's preferred stages? I'm pretty comfortable on FD but that might just be because I practice combos on it. Smashville seems good because ABK/Divekicking to the platform is a good landing mixup, but it generally stays out of the way.
Town and City's low ceiling seems like it would lend itself towards her ceiling combos and up air kills.

So... ban Battlefield? I dunno.
I personally always ban Battlefield due to the platforms often getting in my way. My other bans depend on what character i play against.

edit: A lot of people have been CP'ing me to Duck Hunt but in all honesty it just gave me more room to weave in and out so idk.
 
Last edited:

Gadiel_VaStar

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,066
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
GadielVaStar
Any advice for ledge option coverage?
Just stay at a good distance where you can immediately turn around grab a roll & react to getup. I've seen 9b punish a roll onstage w/ up-b into kill combos. You can up-b jumps, and shield/punish getup attacks & grab getups. Dtilt can be spaced sometimes too & ledge trumps into bair or dsmash are good too. It's really all up to you.
 

pikazz

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
NNID
pikamaxi
for stages, I always ban Duck Hunt as they DO **** your combos up and they are in the way despite the stage has low death zone and close from the side.

between BF and D64, I banning BF as the plattforms can and mostly will interrupt her and can benefit other characters more (like Cloud and Mario). D64 is similiar but it does benefit Bayonetta more than BF because off closer death zone ceilling and longer to the side
 

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
How many frames do you have after a dj to input a witch twist in order to save your double jump?
 

Zult

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
291
NNID
Zultie
Okay, I seriously need to figure out to combo weird floaties like Rosa and Yoshi. My normal combos don't work on them. Any tips? This is important because I've been seeing other Bayos like Pink Fresh and 9B struggle against Rosas.

Edit: Not talking about Luma messing up the combos neither. Just talking about when I'm comboing Rosa when Luma isn't there. Seems pretty difficult. So far I have combos for each weight/fall speed except the floaties like Yoshi and Rosa.
 
Last edited:

Hickz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
24
NNID
Hickz_31
What can :4bayonetta2: do to finish :4ness:? Lost another tourney to a tough MU :/
 

Otterz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
168
Location
Charlotte, NC
NNID
Otterz
So I was messing around with ledge combos and I think I found a 0-Death that is safer (and more consistent IMO) than 9B's combo. This could very well be already known, but I think it is important enough to be mentioned. It could become our most reliable 0-Death combo.

The Combo.

Dtilt > Fair 1 > WTwist > Fair 1 > WTwist2 > Fair 123

It might not be obvious from the video, but one ABK will get you back to stage.
 

Zult

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
291
NNID
Zultie
So I was messing around with ledge combos and I think I found a 0-Death that is safer (and more consistent IMO) than 9B's combo. This could very well be already known, but I think it is important enough to be mentioned. It could become our most reliable 0-Death combo.

The Combo.

Dtilt > Fair 1 > WTwist > Fair 1 > WTwist2 > Fair 123

It might not be obvious from the video, but one ABK will get you back to stage.
I actually came up with the same combo after seeing Pink Fresh's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wKfT_ETa1E&nohtml5=False

And I found it not be true sometimes if they DI away but the thing is most people DI in in fear of dying off the side so then the combo actually becomes true. Although I find it to rarely ever kill if you start the combo at 0% (could be character dependent).
 

Hickz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
24
NNID
Hickz_31
So I was messing around with ledge combos and I think I found a 0-Death that is safer (and more consistent IMO) than 9B's combo. This could very well be already known, but I think it is important enough to be mentioned. It could become our most reliable 0-Death combo.

The Combo.

Dtilt > Fair 1 > WTwist > Fair 1 > WTwist2 > Fair 123

It might not be obvious from the video, but one ABK will get you back to stage.
I tried that on a friend (he was using Cloud), and I'm pretty sure he DI'd out of it in between the fair 1 and second WT
 

Otterz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
168
Location
Charlotte, NC
NNID
Otterz
I actually came up with the same combo after seeing Pink Fresh's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wKfT_ETa1E&nohtml5=False

And I found it not be true sometimes if they DI away but the thing is most people DI in in fear of dying off the side so then the combo actually becomes true. Although I find it to rarely ever kill if you start the combo at 0% (could be character dependent).
Like many of our combos it is definitely DI-able, but like you said the fear of losing a stock tends to make them DI into it. As for killing, I tend to always take the stock as I drag them into the blast zone, but I only roughly tested it with DI In. If they DI In you could probably fit in a Fair 2 before the second WTwist to get more distance, but I wouldn't rely on it.

I tried that on a friend (he was using Cloud), and I'm pretty sure he DI'd out of it in between the fair 1 and second WT
He could have, I'm not saying its guaranteed, but make sure you're hitting the 'Pop-Up' part of the Fair 1.
 

Ingoro

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
815
Location
Noord-Holland, Netherlands.
NNID
Ingoro
Can anyone give me some advice for her aerial combo's? I somehow fail miserably at her aerial combos. I can deal with the neutral pretty well right now but for some reason I'm struggling with her "supereasy" death combos.
 

Zult

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
291
NNID
Zultie
What punishes/combos should I learn first?

I've decided to start with these, from My Smash Corner's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjdViVh4qm0

Then what notable combos should I learn next?
If you can do some of the combos in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6p9k2H43F0 (shameless plug) then you're doing pretty good at the moment.

Is fair one to up air frame perfect?
Not sure, I know people sometimes out of it when I do it, but the up-b will still connect though. I think it's a frame trap. Also I think fair 1 to up air a lot easier to connect on fast fallers.

Can anyone give me some advice for her aerial combo's? I somehow fail miserably at her aerial combos. I can deal with the neutral pretty well right now but for some reason I'm struggling with her "supereasy" death combos.
Eeyup, not so easy until it's in your muscle memory. But people like the exaggerate how easy she is. You may need to change your controller scheme in order to do double jump cancels (DJC) a lot easier. Like a shoulder button set to jump. Also helps with other teach like out of shield up smashes and up-bs or jump canceling on the ground with items. You'll get used to the timing. Also if you're struggling with dive kick then keep practicing. You'll eventually get used to it.
 
Last edited:

Gadiel_VaStar

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,066
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
GadielVaStar
Okay, I seriously need to figure out to combo weird floaties like Rosa and Yoshi. My normal combos don't work on them. Any tips? This is important because I've been seeing other Bayos like Pink Fresh and 9B struggle against Rosas.

Edit: Not talking about Luma messing up the combos neither. Just talking about when I'm comboing Rosa when Luma isn't there. Seems pretty difficult. So far I have combos for each weight/fall speed except the floaties like Yoshi and Rosa.
I think for Yoshi you always should go for the DJ cancel Side b for it to connect. So Upb DJC Sideb, Upb Upair.
As far as Rosalina goes I honestly don't think there is a consistent way to combo her. It's almost better to not combo her & just rely on your really good upair & bair + you won't have lag when trying to land vs Luma.

What can :4bayonetta2: do to finish :4ness:? Lost another tourney to a tough MU :/
Ness is tough to me too because its hard to kill him due to his airdodge & overextending in the air could get you upaird. I'd say just relax in the neutral and watch his spacing for side b & dash attack. Don't attack his shield because his OOS options are too quick & his aerials will catch you. Focus on getting him offstage & getting the edgeguards. Ness will likely live a long time otherwise so don't be upset if he's at 160-180 just hold your control & try not to get grabbed : /
What punishes/combos should I learn first?

I've decided to start with these, from My Smash Corner's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjdViVh4qm0

Then what notable combos should I learn next?
All of those combos are good. I feel like the basics are most important like the upb, side b, JC Upb Side b upair combos. U can start them with dtilt around 40--80 and go for dtilt upb or side b depending on % generally the lower they are side b connects better & upb at high %

Upb side b JC upb upair usually connects the best out of all them & is most reliable for killing. In general you want to be able to react to the opponent & follow their DI but thats a little more advanced. For now focus on watching the combo videos & trying to do all of them.
Is fair one to up air frame perfect?
I'm not sure but u can input it the upair after fair.
Can anyone give me some advice for her aerial combo's? I somehow fail miserably at her aerial combos. I can deal with the neutral pretty well right now but for some reason I'm struggling with her "supereasy" death combos.
Practice bro, takes a ton of practice & dedication. I spent countless hours & late nights trying to get my bayo extra crispy. Watch the combo videos & top Bayonettas & try to figure out what they're doing & apply it.

Generally you go for around 50% in training mode just for practice try upb, wait split second side b, then reverse Jump Cancel Upb, immediate side b ->upair.
 

Ingoro

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
815
Location
Noord-Holland, Netherlands.
NNID
Ingoro
Thanks for the tips guys! ^^ I struggle with the after burner kick properly but I can acknowledge that it's inexperience and that'll just come with practice. I see that I can only end with an Uair when my opponent is caught at the backside of my UpB, what options do you guys do when your opponents end up in the front?
 
Top Bottom