Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

[Shadow the Past]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTWy88ytUGc&feature=youtu.be&t=17
0:17 "Side-b > Uair > Up-b" is it a frame trap if the opponent airdodge?

It looks like the Lucas didn't drift at all after getting hit the first time, so doesn't really seem like a trap to me. You'd need to predict which direction they're going in order to get the Twist.

 

[Zult]

I was just getting the framedata from kuroganehammer http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bayonetta where both spotdodge and airdodge have bat within within frames 1-4. And yea, the pikmin stuff is crazily good, not only can you just time an airdodge or spotdodge to trigger bat within and get all pikmin off you, you can also use it to trigger witch time which is kinda broken lol. And the thing with upthrow hold upair thing is crazily good too, it gives her a great combo throw which is amazing in this game, and it kills mario at 125% on FD (no rage, so in an actual match it's more like 90-100%, and even earlier for lighter characters like sheik or kirby). Also please add all this data I'm giving you to the OP(you may want to edit it go make it more compact though, so it doesn't take up too much space).

Since uair is frame 9, could it be possible to follow up with a WT which is frame 4? It may be able to kill even earlier if you can combo it into the side b into uair

 

[ElMoro995]

Since uair is frame 9, could it be possible to follow up with a WT which is frame 4? It may be able to kill even earlier if you can combo it into the side b into uair

yep, if you react fast to their DI after uair you can connect WT

 

[Sonicninja115]

Since uair is frame 9, could it be possible to follow up with a WT which is frame 4? It may be able to kill even earlier if you can combo it into the side b into uair

Uthrow-Uair and Twist is a true combo, but it is sorta tight. We should probably move this discussion to the combo thread though...

The Skype groups findings should be posted in here however, regardless of combo or more metagamey things. If you want to continue this discussion, however, please move to the combo thread.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

Btw here is the data on the knockback angles of the bullet arts explosions:

Diagonal: All jabs, dtilt, upsmash front hit, dair, fair 12, fsmash, full charge bullet climax, upair, nair.
Horizontal: Dash attack, ftilt 12, bair, bullet climax, afterburner kick.
Vertical: Ftilt 3, fair 3 up hit, dsmash, upsmash up hit, uptilt, fair 3 down hit(inner not sides).
Spike: Fair 3 down hits(sides not inner).

These aren't necessarily useful on their own, but you can use them to make things like jab locks, prattacks(great with platforms!) etc, and also some combos. And for some reason some of them take like 2 or 3 shots before the explosions start dealing knockback. Any of the ones that send them straight up can be used for combos, especially uptilt. These combos will pretty much never stop working, and only become more true at higher %s. A good one is uptilt bullet arts to witch twist, which can start a long combo. This also makes uptilt amazing for platform shield pressure, as when you are under them you can do uptilt and hold for all the bullet arts, and they can't drop shield because the explosion extends above the platform so if they drop shield they will get hit up by the bullet arts explosions, letting you combo into another uptilt or a witch twist. Also bullet arts totally eat through shield which makes this even better.

And I was thinking, like you said in the OP, we should rename our techs and stuff, preferably to inuendos or Bayonetta references/quotes. I think at least for simplicities' sake we should nickname ABK boost kick, because the name makes more sense, and is less of a mouthful than afterburner kick. Also I think we should rename Double Jump Cancel Witch Twist or DJCWT to something like Witch Cyclone, because it's much less of a mouthful, and the move is kinda similar to Luigi cyclone in the height it gets and how you need to do a double jump right before. It also implies that Witch Cyclone is a direct upgrade from Witch Twist, which it is. And I think the z-drop footstool infinite thing should be called Z-Stooling. I think the upthrow upair frametrap deserves a name too, all I can really think of for ideas are how she's spinning like a cartwheel/blade/hands on a clock.

Maybe because the move in her game is called waxing umbran eclipse the frametrap could be called like Umbran Eclipse, Total Eclipse or Total Umbran Eclipse, because i guess you're like covering the sky with a moon shape and occupying the whole airspace because it's not safe for them to be there. And also I don't want to give too much away before I've fully completed collecting the data for them, but jab seems to be one of her best shield breaker finishers by far, so it should probably have a cool name for when it's used in a shield breaker combo. Since the move is called Skull Barrage, and the rapid jab is loads of glowing skulls, I was thinking something like Skull Bite, Skeletal Bite, Skull Crush, Death Crush, etc. All of these are just ideas, and are also just temporary starting names until we think up something better like an inuendo, bayo quote or Bayonetta game reference.

Oh and the upair frametrap thing can also be done after any move that launches them upwards, like after a combo, or uptilt, dtilt, ftilt, heel slide, upair, upsmash etc, not just after upthrow.

 

[Mothman]

Btw here is the data on the knockback angles of the bullet arts explosions:

Diagonal: All jabs, dtilt, upsmash front hit, dair, fair 12, fsmash, full charge bullet climax, upair, nair.
Horizontal: Dash attack, ftilt 12, bair, bullet climax, afterburner kick.
Vertical: Ftilt 3, fair 3 up hit, dsmash, upsmash up hit, uptilt, fair 3 down hit(inner not sides).
Spike: Fair 3 down hits(sides not inner).

These aren't necessarily useful on their own, but you can use them to make things like jab locks, prattacks(great with platforms!) etc, and also some combos. And for some reason some of them take like 2 or 3 shots before the explosions start dealing knockback. Any of the ones that send them straight up can be used for combos, especially uptilt. These combos will pretty much never stop working, and only become more true at higher %s. A good one is uptilt bullet arts to witch twist, which can start a long combo. This also makes uptilt amazing for platform shield pressure, as when you are under them you can do uptilt and hold for all the bullet arts, and they can't drop shield because the explosion extends above the platform so if they drop shield they will get hit up by the bullet arts explosions, letting you combo into another uptilt or a witch twist. Also bullet arts totally eat through shield which makes this even better.

And I was thinking, like you said in the OP, we should rename our techs and stuff, preferably to inuendos or Bayonetta references/quotes. I think at least for simplicities' sake we should nickname ABK boost kick, because the name makes more sense, and is less of a mouthful than afterburner kick. Also I think we should rename Double Jump Cancel Witch Twist or DJCWT to something like Witch Cyclone, because it's much less of a mouthful, and the move is kinda similar to Luigi cyclone in the height it gets and how you need to do a double jump right before. It also implies that Witch Cyclone is a direct upgrade from Witch Twist, which it is. And I think the z-drop footstool infinite thing should be called Z-Stooling. I think the upthrow upair frametrap deserves a name too, all I can really think of for ideas are how she's spinning like a cartwheel/blade/hands on a clock.

Maybe because the move in her game is called waxing umbran eclipse the frametrap could be called like Umbran Eclipse, Total Eclipse or Total Umbran Eclipse, because i guess you're like covering the sky with a moon shape and occupying the whole airspace because it's not safe for them to be there. And also I don't want to give too much away before I've fully completed collecting the data for them, but jab seems to be one of her best shield breaker finishers by far, so it should probably have a cool name for when it's used in a shield breaker combo. Since the move is called Skull Barrage, and the rapid jab is loads of glowing skulls, I was thinking something like Skull Bite, Skeletal Bite, Skull Crush, Death Crush, etc. All of these are just ideas, and are also just temporary starting names until we think up something better like an inuendo, bayo quote or Bayonetta game reference.

Oh and the upair frametrap thing can also be done after any move that launches them upwards, like after a combo, or uptilt, dtilt, ftilt, heel slide, upair, upsmash etc, not just after upthrow.

I personally feel it's better to keep to names like after burner kick, because that's what the move is actually called in both smash and bayonetta. I'm confused already with some of the terms, so I feel that renaming things is just going to make things more confusing for people. I do agree to rename some stuff, but when it comes to moves with official names like witch twist etc, they should keep those names.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

I personally feel it's better to keep to names like after burner kick, because that's what the move is actually called in both smash and bayonetta. I'm confused already with some of the terms, so I feel that renaming things is just going to make things more confusing for people. I do agree to rename some stuff, but when it comes to moves with official names like witch twist etc, they should keep those names.

I do agree with ABK, I'm not saying we should actually rename it, but just be able to refer to it as boost kick(which a lot of people including me have been doing anyway, mostly accidentally) so it's less of a mouthful. And I'm not suggesting we rename witch twist, I'm saying we should rename the tech Double Jump Cancel Witch Twist/DJCWT to Witch Cyclone.

 

[meleebrawler]

Personally I just call downward Afterburner Kick, dive kick.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

Yea I also call it divekick.

Ok, so I think we need to discuss bayonetta's neutral, specifically where she's not at an advantage, and her approach game. Since we discovered that crazy upthrow upair frametrap throw combo at any %, she should be utilising her grabs on approach and in neutral as much as possible. Her standing grab is only 1 frame slower than sheik's, with only 2 frames more endlag, but grabs beat shields so its not like it's less safe on shield. Also the fact that it beats shield solves a ton of bayo's problems, as the counter meta to her seems to be evolving around shielding and shieldgrabbing all her approaches. Her standing grab has pretty decent range and speed. Her dash grab is also pretty good, once again only 1 frame slower than sheik's with only 2 frames more endlag.

However she has another grab option out of a run, if you do a technique I guess I'll call Shield Cancelled Dash grab. Basically, during a run, you press shield and then after a split second press grab. Your shield will come out for a split second, and then you will standing grab instead of dash grab. This actually makes bayo slide quite far, so the grab range from dash grab is only reduced by a tiny amount. However, not only does this drastically improve her dash grab framedata(comes out 2 frames earlier and has 7 frames less endlag), but the shield before it can protect you from attacks, and essentially makes this count as a sort of option select, beating both shield and most attacks. So yea in general you should be using grab a lot in neutral into upthrow upair frametrap since it beats shield and is also very safe with a high payoff if you land it.

She also has an amazing foxtrot/foxdance for weaving in and out, pretty much on par with Cloud's with it's distance and speed. Can be great for going in for grabs and dtilts on shield, and for positioning yourself for spacing. Great for movement, and weaving in and out, approaching your opponent, baiting them, and faking them out, keeping them guessing when you're going to go in. She also has a very lagless skid animation after a run, so running and skidding to a halt before doing tilts like dtilt for shield pressure is also an option. Also, she has an amazing shorthop airdodge. It starts on frame 1 because of bat within, and ends just before she lands, giving her no lag. It also makes her travel quite far.

This can allow her to easily get through even the toughest walls of projectile/move spacing, and is excellent when on the approach, and you can pretty much spam it, it goes way further than her rolls, it's practically a replacement for them. In fact in the neutral when you are rolling around each other you should be doing shorthop airdodge around them instead, it has much better framedata and much more range. The airdodge is best done buffered during the jump startup of course.

So in summary, in neutral and approach, you should be going for a lot of grabs, and foxtrotting in and out constantly, and shorthop airdodging instead of rolling(it has waay better framedata, it does start 1 frame later if you include the jump squat, but it has 10 more frames of invincibility, and 5 less frames of endlag. It also goes twice the distance of a roll, and you can control where you go midair so unlike with a roll, if you see the opponent ready to punish it after reading it, you can just move in midair back away from them with bayo's amazing air mobility. Basically this should be replacing all of your rolls. This tech is so useful it probably needs a name, I think Air-Roll makes sense). Of course there are other things like spacing aerials on shield but those are already known about.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Just remembered something I wanted to share with the rest of you.

When you activate witch time, pay attention to the umbran style clock hand. Witch time ends when the hand strikes 12 'o clock. Naturally, the more time you have, the longer it'll take, and vise versa if it's been used too much.

We can use this to know exactly when witch time will end for proper followups (such as setting up spikes).

 

[Sonicninja115]

I fell out of my labbing mood, so don't expect too many findings from me in the near future. It usually goes in two week spurts for some reason. Hopefully I will get back into it soon.

I encourage people to memorize the recovery spots. You have the sweetspot for ABK, Dive kick and Twist, as well as other options. Recovering high onto the stage. Falling below with Dair to get too the ledge.

Bayonetta's movement techniques are really good. Foxtrotting and foxtrot dancing are very easy and effective. Perfect Pivoting is amazing with Bayonetta and her dash-shield is only 10 frames.

I will try and get everything sorted and written up tomorrow.

Anyone want to look into this?

 

[Zalezus]

Yea I also call it divekick.

Ok, so I think we need to discuss bayonetta's neutral, specifically where she's not at an advantage, and her approach game. Since we discovered that crazy upthrow upair frametrap throw combo at any %, she should be utilising her grabs on approach and in neutral as much as possible. Her standing grab is only 1 frame slower than sheik's, with only 2 frames more endlag, but grabs beat shields so its not like it's less safe on shield. Also the fact that it beats shield solves a ton of bayo's problems, as the counter meta to her seems to be evolving around shielding and shieldgrabbing all her approaches. Her standing grab has pretty decent range and speed. Her dash grab is also pretty good, once again only 1 frame slower than sheik's with only 2 frames more endlag.

However she has another grab option out of a run, if you do a technique I guess I'll call Shield Cancelled Dash grab. Basically, during a run, you press shield and then after a split second press grab. Your shield will come out for a split second, and then you will standing grab instead of dash grab. This actually makes bayo slide quite far, so the grab range from dash grab is only reduced by a tiny amount. However, not only does this drastically improve her dash grab framedata(comes out 2 frames earlier and has 7 frames less endlag), but the shield before it can protect you from attacks, and essentially makes this count as a sort of option select, beating both shield and most attacks. So yea in general you should be using grab a lot in neutral into upthrow upair frametrap since it beats shield and is also very safe with a high payoff if you land it.

She also has an amazing foxtrot/foxdance for weaving in and out, pretty much on par with Cloud's with it's distance and speed. Can be great for going in for grabs and dtilts on shield, and for positioning yourself for spacing. Great for movement, and weaving in and out, approaching your opponent, baiting them, and faking them out, keeping them guessing when you're going to go in. She also has a very lagless skid animation after a run, so running and skidding to a halt before doing tilts like dtilt for shield pressure is also an option. Also, she has an amazing shorthop airdodge. It starts on frame 1 because of bat within, and ends just before she lands, giving her no lag. It also makes her travel quite far.

This can allow her to easily get through even the toughest walls of projectile/move spacing, and is excellent when on the approach, and you can pretty much spam it, it goes way further than her rolls, it's practically a replacement for them. In fact in the neutral when you are rolling around each other you should be doing shorthop airdodge around them instead, it has much better framedata and much more range. The airdodge is best done buffered during the jump startup of course.

So in summary, in neutral and approach, you should be going for a lot of grabs, and foxtrotting in and out constantly, and shorthop airdodging instead of rolling(it has waay better framedata, it does start 1 frame later if you include the jump squat, but it has 10 more frames of invincibility, and 5 less frames of endlag. It also goes twice the distance of a roll, and you can control where you go midair so unlike with a roll, if you see the opponent ready to punish it after reading it, you can just move in midair back away from them with bayo's amazing air mobility. Basically this should be replacing all of your rolls. This tech is so useful it probably needs a name, I think Air-Roll makes sense). Of course there are other things like spacing aerials on shield but those are already known about.

I had this same hunch about SH air dodge when grinding Cloud. Being able to drift out of a buffered air dodge really opens up positioning options and can bait predictable punishes. I would imagine the air dodge animation would also condition the opponent to be wary of Witch Time (or not...)

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

what are some kill set ups or set ups for her smashes? ive been having trouble killing with bayonetta, and her combos are hard for me to pull off, the fact that the 3ds has no ridges makes it so that using her red-hot kick is way too inconsistent and i just end up wasting WTi.

 

[Zalezus]

what are some kill set ups or set ups for her smashes? ive been having trouble killing with bayonetta, and her combos are hard for me to pull off, the fact that the 3ds has no ridges makes it so that using her red-hot kick is way too inconsistent and i just end up wasting WTi.

Fsmash and Usmash can kill on specific reads pretty reliably and in some pivot situations.

Uthrow > Uair can kill at high percent (or lower for floaties)

If you get a low ABK after a SH Nair (tested this today) you can follow up for a Bair that will kill from even the middle of FD at around 130%ish OR any other WT/ABK combo that kills off the top with Uair or off the side/top with the Fair combo.

If you're feeling good, a pop up to RAR Bair at the ledge will kill around 100% weight depending.

Tipper Dair out of a pop up (Heel Slide no kick, Dtilt, Utilt, Fair 1) can kill at the ledge. I've killed Rosa off the side at 60%, it's pretty silly actually.

Check me on these follow ups, but these are some consistent setups I look for when the "Witch Cyclone" combo whiffs or my opponent is on top of their DI

 

[Squiiidzoid]

I fell out of my labbing mood, so don't expect too many findings from me in the near future. It usually goes in two week spurts for some reason. Hopefully I will get back into it soon.

I encourage people to memorize the recovery spots. You have the sweetspot for ABK, Dive kick and Twist, as well as other options. Recovering high onto the stage. Falling below with Dair to get too the ledge.

Bayonetta's movement techniques are really good. Foxtrotting and foxtrot dancing are very easy and effective. Perfect Pivoting is amazing with Bayonetta and her dash-shield is only 10 frames.

I will try and get everything sorted and written up tomorrow.

Anyone want to look into this?

Oh, that's sad, so does that mean you won't be discussing with us and editing the OP anymore? Or do you only mean you don't want to lab and test stuff yourself, but you will still discuss it? I'm fine with being the only one labbing anything (but sadly i don't have a way to check framedata or anything).

And yea I think memorising the recovery sweetspots is very important. And that walk-blocking thing looks interesting too.

what are some kill set ups or set ups for her smashes? ive been having trouble killing with bayonetta, and her combos are hard for me to pull off, the fact that the 3ds has no ridges makes it so that using her red-hot kick is way too inconsistent and i just end up wasting WTi.

I'm on 3ds too, getting the Inputs down for divekick is just a matter of labbing it until it becomes muscle memory. You need to be able to do it consistently, because it's very important for her (used for kill off the top combos, great it neutral, safe on shield. And as for smash attack combos, you're in luck! You can get dtilt to upsmash. And when landing, fair 1 to fsmash, or dsmash spike at the ledge. At the ledge you can do dtilt or downthrow to dsmash spike.

Also an amazing reliable combo at any %s, is upthrow to hold upair, because it's a frameyrap so they either get hit at the first hit, or airdodge and get hit by the bullet arts extension, and combos into more upairs. Kills at 100%. Both hits of upair combo into more upairs, and you just sinse and repeat the jump hold upair frametrap until they die or get combos offstage, in the perfect spot to be edgeguarded. For edgeguarding, dsmash is great if they recover even slightly above the ledge. You can also gimp by jumping off and holding upair or nair.

Jumping off with dair is great, you can still easily make it back, and the spike hitbox of dair is the gun on her foot for the entire move. One good thing to do, Is since dair has 2 hits, so that if the opponent is standing at the ledge in front of you they still get spiked, if you dsmash while the opponent recovers and it doesn't hit them, they will almost always use the roll behind you getup option, so as they recover just when they grab the ledge, dsmash, then turn around and upsmash or fsmash and they will roll right into it from the ledge. Similar to when villager does the tree at the ledge and then fsmashes behind him.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Oh, that's sad, so does that mean you won't be discussing with us and editing the OP anymore? Or do you only mean you don't want to lab and test stuff yourself, but you will still discuss it? I'm fine with being the only one labbing anything (but sadly i don't have a way to check framedata or anything).

And yea I think memorising the recovery sweetspots is very important. And that walk-blocking thing looks interesting too.

I just won't be able to make videos or lab things thoroughly. I have found a couple of things with Nair and Bair, but they are relatively small. Plus, I am juggling Diddy kong and Mewtwo as well. I will still be doing a lot, just no videos or in-depth labbing.

 

[Tinkady]

Hi all,

I consider myself a pretty good casual Bayonetta. One thing I haven't yet been able to do yet is kill off the top in those fly-me-to-the-moon combos. Is there a trick to it? Starting with aerial downward side-b's? Up-b fair up-B up-air?

Also, to edgeguard with Witch Time, is the best way to witch time, up-b, get back on the stage, and then downair spike? Is this a thing that can be done consistently with practice?

Note: I use tap-jump, in case that changes what direction I need to be pushing while using aerials. Also, is tap-jump messing with my ability to get two up-b's in a row? That also seems to be important to kills of the top, and I can't do them...

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Just remembered something I wanted to share with the rest of you.

When you activate witch time, pay attention to the umbran style clock hand. Witch time ends when the hand strikes 12 'o clock. Naturally, the more time you have, the longer it'll take, and vise versa if it's been used too much.

We can use this to know exactly when witch time will end for proper followups (such as setting up spikes).

Yeah, this was shown in the trailer as well. Makes it easier to get good stage position if you can't get the optimal punish.

Anyone want to look into this?

This sounds more useful for characters that don't have projectiles, reflectors, or burst moves (e.g. bouncing fish, flip kick, after burner kick). Still nice to remember, as walking is safer than dashing.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

Hey, so in my testing I've been labbing a bit with this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bEVDvfzcvXU

Not the shield break (I am thinking about a version for us, but that's not what I need help with), but the combo. Specifically, the second one. What he does, is z-drop, fastfall, item hits them, footstool, z-catch, wait, z-drop, fastfall, item hits them, footstool, z-catch, and repeat. When the jump eventually gets too small he goes to the side and then shorthops back, with a z-drop to footstool, z-catch, then repeats the whole combo. I don't think the hydrant is necessary at all, as he demonstrates.

Basically, I'm trying to get this to work for bayo. She seems to have the perfect jump height and fall speed to be able to do this. But I'm having trouble doing it with either her or pac-man. The best way to lab it I've found, is vs Mario in training mode, 1/4x speed, 999%, using star rods(bouncy items that behave just like pac-man's items), and then before the combo footstool Mario to get perfect positioning. These combos wouldn't only annihilate pac-man in our MU with him, but would also be possible and practically identical with any other bouncy non-explosive item(peach'es turnips and items, sheik's grenades, robin's tomes and sword, rob's gyro, any of pac-man's items, and villager's wood chip), and could be ended with a dair for the kill.

So the problem with I'm having, is with both pac-man and bayo, I get as far as z-drop, item hits, footstool, but then I either z-drop too late and Mario stands up first during invincibility frames, or I z-drop too early and he gets launched before I can fastfall and get the footstool. So it's a tight window, but it feels slightly easier for bayo. I just wanted to see if any of you guys could get it, and also to share it with you, it's sort of like wobbling, a strict input timing infinite combo, and I think it may eventually be a staple in top level play, after all, some random player in Japan was able to do it consistently so top players should be able to too. Also, I don't think it requires a shield break to start, shorthop z-drops really aren't hard to land in the neutral or as a punish, and are extremely safe. Also if I find some good shield breaker combos with items they're gonna be way too scared to shield them.

So I've been testing this quite a bit. Turns out it's way easier to practice at 0%, lol it was a dumb idea for me to try and do it at 999%, they fly away so fast it makes it way harder. But now I'm able to consistently get it. The problem is, after 5 footstools which is the max, pac-man has to land, then jump back up and use the hydrant, or jab lock with Nair, to continue the combo. But bayo can only get 5 in a row so far. I was wondering if you guys had any ideas. We could just go right into a combo, after having just done 15-75%(depends on the item) guaranteed damage. But we do have other options, like jab locks, or combos into footstool like dtilt footstool, fair 1 footstool, nair footstool etc. Some of her jab locks are bullet climax, weak bair(or strong at low %s), and back bullet arts of dtilt, and pretty much any other bullet arts.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So I've been testing this quite a bit. Turns out it's way easier to practice at 0%, lol it was a dumb idea for me to try and do it at 999%, they fly away so fast it makes it way harder. But now I'm able to consistently get it. The problem is, after 5 footstools which is the max, pac-man has to land, then jump back up and use the hydrant, or jab lock with Nair, to continue the combo. But bayo can only get 5 in a row so far. I was wondering if you guys had any ideas. We could just go right into a combo, after having just done 15-75%(depends on the item) guaranteed damage. But we do have other options, like jab locks, or combos into footstool like dtilt footstool, fair 1 footstool, nair footstool etc. Some of her jab locks are bullet climax, weak bair(or strong at low %s), and back bullet arts of dtilt, and pretty much any other bullet arts.

How about finishing the combo with DiveKick?

 

[Tythaeus]

So everyone has been wondering if you guys had any ideas.

I can't test this for myself, but will you even be able to get down in time to go for a lock in the first place?

I went solo Bayonetta at a local and just have a few things to say:

- I think a more patient type of playstyle is better suited for this character. I often had just crouched in place while analyzing how my opponent will try to approach. Your hurtbox is really low to the ground so you can duck under various moves and aerials.
- Empty short hops are amazing. You can condition them to shield (Which is "the counter" to Bayonetta apparently lol) and go in for a grab. You can mix it up by throwing in a Bair, UAir, ABK/dABK, Fair, or Witch Twist. I prefer having my back to the opponent whenever i short hop so I can throw out Bair
- UpB is an amazing OoS option
- when I played against fast characters such as fox, I had some difficulty landing safely. This was mostly a problem only on FD since there weren't any platforms for me to land on.
- PP Dtilt is greating for retreating while poking. I think people should look into incorporating PP into their gameplay somehow.
- Dtilt BA hits halfway across FD give or take. If you use it from that distance it's actually pretty safe. If they shield it pushes them back enough to prevent a possible punish.
- You don't need IWinTime to win lmao.
- You can just stand and charge Bullet Climax. It often made my opponents try to run up and shield, giving me free OoS grabs. The ones that tried to jump either got hit by it, or I OoS UpB/uABK
- IMPORTANT Fsmash whiffs when they are right next to you sometimes. I lost a game to a peach because of this.

Overall I think her neutral is best played patiently. She has the tools to get off BIG damage when your opponent makes a mistake.

 

[Zult]

Is there any place where I can find non guaranteed set ups, 50/50s, and frame traps all in one place? Don't really feel like reading all 8 pages in here and the standard bread and butter combos are easy to learn and figure out.

 

[Shadow the Past]

what are some kill set ups or set ups for her smashes? ive been having trouble killing with bayonetta, and her combos are hard for me to pull off, the fact that the 3ds has no ridges makes it so that using her red-hot kick is way too inconsistent and i just end up wasting WTi.

If they're at high percents and I hit them with a grounded side b, but the kick at the end misses, they often try to drift away from me with an airdodge. If I expect this and look for it, I can react and throw out an Fsmash and hit them when they land.

 

[Tythaeus]

Is there any place where I can find non guaranteed set ups, 50/50s, and frame traps all in one place? Don't really feel like reading all 8 pages in here and the standard bread and butter combos are easy to learn and figure out.

Probably the combos thread.

It might be helpful to add a sectio nfor frame traps, etc., in the OP

 

[Sonicninja115]

Probably the combos thread.

It might be helpful to add a sectio nfor frame traps, etc., in the OP

I am going to add Frame traps as they are not technically combos.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Updated the OP and found out that Kurogane posted the accumulated Landing lag stuff.

Also, does anyone know the BW frames at the end of dodges?

 

[Shadow the Past]

Updated the OP and found out that Kurogane posted the accumulated Landing lag stuff.

Also, does anyone know the BW frames at the end of dodges?

I was under the impression there weren't any Bat Within frames at the end of dodges.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I was under the impression there weren't any Bat Within frames at the end of dodges.

I have seen it happen. I will try and test myself tomorrow to discount possible placebo. Getting exact frames is beyond my ken ATM (probably, I might try) But at least I can find out if there are frames.

Anyone's thoughts or comments on the Op? suggestions? It will probably end up being a community guide like my Mewtwo one, so fire away!

 

[Tythaeus]

Anyone's thoughts or comments on the Op? suggestions? It will probably end up being a community guide like my Mewtwo one, so fire away!

It's well organized and neat, but adding a "Stages to ban/pick" section would be great; maybe even add it to the things to discuss part too.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It's well organized and neat, but adding a "Stages to ban/pick" section would be great; maybe even add it to the things to discuss part too.

That would probably be best in it's own thread. The discussion needs to be rather in-depth, so a cursory overview now and then might not cut it. It is also a bit too early for this.

What are the general opinions as of now? I can post the general thoughts as a starting point I guess, and then update for the official list later.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

That would probably be best in it's own thread. The discussion needs to be rather in-depth, so a cursory overview now and then might not cut it. It is also a bit too early for this.

What are the general opinions as of now? I can post the general thoughts as a starting point I guess, and then update for the official list later.

For me personally, I think Lylat and Omegas with wall are great

Worst stages are probably Duck Hunt, Battlefield and DL because they interfere with combos. Not 100% sure though; seems to me like Bayo can lay on some psycho platform pressure based on the numbers. Haven't labbed it yet though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

For me personally, I think Lylat and Omegas with wall are great

Worst stages are probably Duck Hunt, Battlefield and DL because they interfere with combos. Not 100% sure though; seems to me like Bayo can lay on some psycho platform pressure based on the numbers. Haven't labbed it yet though.

I think DH might be okay. The small visible sides would make recovery easier and the ducks replenish ABK. I agree on Walled omegas and BF/DL.

 

[Rocxidi]

Hope this isn't a repost but I saw someone recover from the bottom of Willy Castle using only walljumps and I managed to replicate it. Press towards the wall to cling, press jump, press away from the wall to walljump, then towards it to cling again. Repeat and you'll make it back to the stage. I tried this after using ABK and two Witch Twists, meaning it was impossible for me to recover otherwise. This is great because in any square Omega stage you can recover with no jumps or specials from any depth of the stage. This is something that should probably be mentioned in the OP. Before today I didn't know how to recover from the wall so I always ended up dying whenever I clinged with no specials left. Hope this helps someone out there.

 

[Spirst]

Yeah, that was discussed on page 7 of this same thread. Walled stages are really nice for her.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hope this isn't a repost but I saw someone recover from the bottom of Willy Castle using only walljumps and I managed to replicate it. Press towards the wall to cling, press jump, press away from the wall to walljump, then towards it to cling again. Repeat and you'll make it back to the stage. I tried this after using ABK and two Witch Twists, meaning it was impossible for me to recover otherwise. This is great because in any square Omega stage you can recover with no jumps or specials from any depth of the stage. This is something that should probably be mentioned in the OP. Before today I didn't know how to recover from the wall so I always ended up dying whenever I clinged with no specials left. Hope this helps someone out there.

I will make sure to mention this in the recovery section.

Also, new vid!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ZmRMqHr3M

This vid showcases some of the autosnap angles for ABK as well as recovery stuff.

 

[Tythaeus]

I will make sure to mention this in the recovery section.

Also, new vid!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ZmRMqHr3M

This vid showcases some of the autosnap angles for ABK as well as recovery stuff.

At the end of that video, around 1:38, did you wall cling in the middle of the ABK or did you space it to end just before you hit the wall?

 

[Sonicninja115]

At the end of that video, around 1:38, did you wall cling in the middle of the ABK or did you space it to end just before you hit the wall?

I spaced it.

 

[Deaga]

For me personally, I think Lylat and Omegas with wall are great

Worst stages are probably Duck Hunt, Battlefield and DL because they interfere with combos. Not 100% sure though; seems to me like Bayo can lay on some psycho platform pressure based on the numbers. Haven't labbed it yet though.

I actually really like Battlefield's and Dreamland's platforms, as they give you many different landing options, making you more unpredicable. The platforms may even help you with combos, as combo-ing near one makes DI'ing down and/or air dodging be terrible options for your opponent, as they'll simply fall on platforms and suffer from landing lag, making some "untrue" combos, well, true. You can still combo your Up B into Side B from below the platforms as long as you don't hold B at all during the Up B (sometimes I hold it at just the beginning of the move and that gives terrible IASA frames already. You really have to only tap it!). I think the top platforms may get in the way it you happen to hit the second Side B just above them though, making it so you can't do an aerial on time... But maybe putting a jump somewhere on the combo fixes that, moving you a bit higher? At least you'll be able to pull a second Up B, which is crazy fast.

Duck Hunt seems like a fairly OK stage, with walls helping your recovery. The tree is a nice option to recover from the left, as most characters can't reach that high very quickly, giving another option to come back to the stage besides the ledge. You can also try to start combos up there and kill very early, though that's very situational. The ducks can and WILL interefere in your combos though, giving more hitstun on your attacks (making you lag more and miss combos) and will make your dive kick bounce... But you can also use another Side B after hitting the ducks (even with a rising one), which does give you more movement options in the air. I'd say it's a nice stage, but you have to pay a lot of attention to the ducks.

I also like Lylat a lot, as you can actually use your Neutral B to a great degree there. But I really dislike the platform layout, it makes doing downward Side B's really though, as the platforms are way too low. So it makes camping easier, but approaching harder... Still, given that the tilting makes camping harder for nearly every other character (as their projectiles will go straight and miss), it seems like a great stage against characters with projectiles. I know I really love to pick that stage against my friend's Corrin, so his neutral B becomes a non-issue. >_>

 

[Sonicninja115]

I actually really like Battlefield's and Dreamland's platforms, as they give you many different landing options, making you more unpredicable. The platforms may even help you with combos, as combo-ing near one makes DI'ing down and/or air dodging be terrible options for your opponent, as they'll simply fall on platforms and suffer from landing lag, making some "untrue" combos, well, true. You can still combo your Up B into Side B from below the platforms as long as you don't hold B at all during the Up B (sometimes I hold it at just the beginning of the move and that gives terrible IASA frames already. You really have to only tap it!). I think the top platforms may get in the way it you happen to hit the second Side B just above them though, making it so you can't do an aerial on time... But maybe putting a jump somewhere on the combo fixes that, moving you a bit higher? At least you'll be able to pull a second Up B, which is crazy fast.

Duck Hunt seems like a fairly OK stage, with walls helping your recovery. The tree is a nice option to recover from the left, as most characters can't reach that high very quickly, giving another option to come back to the stage besides the ledge. You can also try to start combos up there and kill very early, though that's very situational. The ducks can and WILL interefere in your combos though, giving more hitstun on your attacks (making you lag more and miss combos) and will make your dive kick bounce... But you can also use another Side B after hitting the ducks (even with a rising one), which does give you more movement options in the air. I'd say it's a nice stage, but you have to pay a lot of attention to the ducks.

I also like Lylat a lot, as you can actually use your Neutral B to a great degree there. But I really dislike the platform layout, it makes doing downward Side B's really though, as the platforms are way too low. So it makes camping easier, but approaching harder... Still, given that the tilting makes camping harder for nearly every other character (as their projectiles will go straight and miss), it seems like a great stage against characters with projectiles. I know I really love to pick that stage against my friend's Corrin, so his neutral B becomes a non-issue. >_>

How well does Bayo's BC do on Lylat? is it better?

Also, I have been labbing Mewtwo for the past couple of days, and thus, not been updating the OP. However, I am hopefully uploading more vids today and I plan on finishing the mewtwo stuff by next week.

 

[Deaga]

The ledges of the stage are normally a bit lower than the central level, so if you suse Bulllet Climax near the ledge, it goes closer to ground at mid-level. This means you can hit smaller foes, or foes farther away pretty easily. If you're on the lower level when the stage tilts, you're golden, as the bullets will go almost parallel to the stage. So when most projectiles turn into crap, yours is actually pretty good!

Sitting still and trying to camp like that is still pretty bad, given the huge endlag on Bullet Climax, but you can use it pretty effectivelly to rack up %. It's pretty easy to hit almost all shots and getting an easy ~15% doing so. If they try to stay on the platforms, you can just jump to hit them. What I like most about this is really how other projectiles get bad when the stage tilts, but ours actually gets much better.

Still, I really find the platform layout to be terrible for us, so we lose something on this stage. I've liked Battlefield more recently, but I'd say Lylat is still pretty good. We also have a great recovery, so getting trolled by the ledges is less of an issue.