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Secondary for Bad ZSS MUs

FatalVindicator

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
7
Pre-1.1.5 I had Sheik as a secondary against Pikachu, Villager and Ness as they gave my ZSS trouble. Post patch, I now struggle against Diddy too and Sheik's nerfs have made her a poor secondary for me. I can't play Sheik perfectly like a top player and I think she loses to Pikachu post patch.

Pikachu is my worst match up and with the nerf to Nair (range and damage/shield stun) I can't figure out how to approach without getting punished. I also struggle with Diddy, Ness, and Villager the most currently.

I'm interested in hearing opinions on what character could cover my bad matchups. I've been working on Mewtwo and Cloud, but I have trouble against Ness and Pikachu with both of themas well.

Any advice or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
 

Trifroze

all is cheese, all is jank
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
1,236
Location
Finland
NNID
Trifroze
Pikachu ultimately goes even with ZSS. He likely beats ZSS on Final Destination and possibly Duck Hunt, but loses at least on Battlefield and Dreamland. If you care about improving your ZSS I think you should go through the struggle of learning the matchup along with Villager and Ness matchups (both of which ZSS goes even with or beats), especially since it sounds like your problems are more related to fighting those characters in general.

They all require quite a lot of precision since they're small characters. They're also all characters with good projectiles and good rising aerials (meaning they can hit you with their shorthop aerials as they're rising when you're standing on the ground) so it sounds like your problem might mainly have to do with dealing with those things. You should implement more dash to shield into your approaches, i.e. you just run towards them, shield and wait for them to jump with an aerial or use a projectile and then punish it with something like up tilt or grab. If they start grabbing your shield approaches then switch to shorthopping again.

Up b out of shield is also really worth learning if you haven't, since it does 17% damage, kills at high percents and is able to punish almost anything that hits your shield. You have to either use tap jump and up b while holding shield (not recommended), or set L or R to jump (the one you don't use for shielding) and then, while holding shield, press the newly set jump shoulder button + up b simultaneously. This lets you cancel your shield with a jump and up b instantly before leaving the ground. Without canceling your shield with jump, it'd take you an extra 7 frames to up b after you let go of shield and you couldn't punish most things in time. You can try this in training mode at 1/4 speed and really see the difference.

This is also really good for punishing Pikachu's smashes since he has to resort to those to kill you. Just sit in shield at high percents and wait for him to smash, and once he does, up b him out of your shield (example). Also great against Mario, Luigi, Fox and Ryu for instance (it's a must for punishing Ryu's tilts).

Aside from their projectiles, Pikachu, Ness and Villager also severely lack in their range and mobility (Pikachu not as much in mobility though), which you should abuse with ZSS' zair, ftilt, nair, bair and to an extent dsmash. You don't really need to approach, but rather stay right outside of their moves but at a range where you can barely nair them in the air and ftilt them on the ground. Keep jumping back and zair occasionally, and throw out dash grabs once they become scared to jump. Against Villager you have to watch out for his pellets, but zair goes through them, and remember to mix up with dash to shield approaches like explained earlier.

Shorthop into immediate airdodge is good as well (you essentially have to make the inputs simultaneously), since it lets you go through a lot of attacks and you can use your uair after the airdodge before you land. You can jump past the opponent with a shorthop airdodge and barely use your bair before landing as well. Learning all these things may be overwhelming at first but it really doesn't take long for it to become intuitive and effortless after you start practicing and applying it.

Sorry if I'm explaining things you already know, but yeah. Proper spacing and precision, dash to shield, jump canceled up b out of shield and shorthop airdodges into aerials or paralyzer are really important with ZSS if you're struggling vs short characters with good projectiles and rising aerials. Often once you start properly punishing your opponent hitting your shield, they can become super uncertain and scared to throw out attacks or projectiles. That's when you can start playing more aggressive and get the momentum, or you can just attempt to rely on ZSS' superior range and try to stay outside of the opponent's range and chip them out.

Diddy and Sheik can be tough in neutral but the same things largely work on them. Against Diddy you have to focus on playing around the banana by just remembering he can't grab you when he has one out, sitting in shield and waiting for him to throw it off until it's gone. If he starts to just sit back and wait you can occasionally go for dash grabs on him. Once the banana is gone you need to try to punish him pulling it out with a dash grab and combo him as hard as possible. Best secondary against Diddy would probably be Cloud.

Vs Sheik, you lose hard but then she can never kill you if you focus on avoiding her setups and "kill moves", then you grab her once and kill her with a rage dthrow combo or back air or something. But you've played Sheik so you probably know how to play against her as well.
 
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Dr. Tuen

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,396
3DS FC
0559-7294-8323
To echo some of this, ZSS gets quite a bit out of boost kick OoS. In the case of Pikachu, many aerials get stuffed by boost kick if he's not spacing correctly. Not that I'm Nairo or ESAM, but at a local event vs our best Pikachu I turned a game around by literally sitting in shield... jumping if he looked like he wanted a dash grab... and boost kicking nearly every thing else.

That and her punish game is phenomenal. People are discussing others as rising above her (Ryu, MK, etc), but it doesn't diminish her capabilities. Sure, nair is hard to get on short characters... but sometimes, when you finally get it, that can be death. Go into training mode and lab out some kill combos off nair, find the best percents to start/end those combos at, and adjust your results with some online/friendlies/local experience (especially since training mode doesn't have DI or rage). Some starter things to try might be the modified ladder combo (nair, up air, jump, boost kick) or nair to flip kick. Learn how to extend combos up platforms too (I'm still learning this one!) A big reason ZSS is seen as top tier threat on those stages is her ability to get a touch and extend that to massive damage or death via the platforms.

That's about all I have. Best of luck. The best results come from hard work and eating many, many losses on the way there. Try to learn from every match you are in, and try NOT to write off something as "cheap," as that robs you of a chance to learn something from that match. I've always been fond of the saying "the master has lost more times than the beginner has attempted."

Good luck!
 

TwizzyBomb

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
5
I love the advice you guys gave in this thread, Dr. Tuen Dr. Tuen & Trifroze. I will definitely work on those OoS up-b's to combat the short characters quick ariels.

As far as secondaries for tough match-ups, I honestly have picked up, and love the feel of Mario. I started using him for the Pika mu which Mario wins solidly. Mario also does much better vs Sheik, much better vs Diddy, and I personally (having a local cloud) do much better vs cloud with Mario too. (a tough mu for me.)

Villager I feel like goes even vs Zss. In addition to all the info that Trifroze and Tuen gave, I've seen Marss grab Villager, and use the invincibility on d-throw to "go through" Villager's Loyd rocket. Pellets can be really annoying since Zss is so tall, so I'd recommend walking and powershielding them. A local villager says that villagers lose to powersheilds at top level.

I honestly struggle vs Ness too tbh. Something about the percent range that ladder combos work confuses me.

It seems that Ness (and Villager, Luigi) seem to "pop- up" from ladder combo's too early for me....Anyone know why?
 

WiFi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
348
Location
In the Abyss.
I wouldn't advise using Mario against Cloud. But, for the other matchups, I can say Mario is a good pick. Cloud vs Mario is heavily in Cloud's favor. I'd actually recommend using Corrin or Marcina for ZSS's losing matchups, as both of them stomp Ness, go even-ish with Cloud, and do okay against Sheik/Diddy (-1, winnable).
 

Lattenzo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
31
Location
Canada
3DS FC
2621-3172-9784
Switch FC
SW-6477-3999-3958
Pika, Sheik and Bayo are your best bets for ZSS secondaries, imo. They're the only characters who have even or positive matchups against all of ZSS's bad matchups.
 
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